Eternal Security

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marks

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It is worth the effort

Go ahead then and show me what that verse means, if it's not what it appears to be saying. Because it continues to seem to me that you've worked out some reasonings from your understandings of other passages that lead you to think this one can't possibly be meaning what it says.

As I've studied these others passages, I find that conflicts some see are eliminated with a better understanding, and no need to change words.

Much love!
 

marks

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But it's also not the last word on the subject.
Again, its as if you are thinking some other word will change the meanings of these. But I maintain that will not be so. I maintain that we can hold to the plain and simple truths without having to change any of the meanings of the words or phrases.

Again, you continue to dispute this, but without showing how that verse doesn't mean what it seems to be saying.

Much love!
 

Ferris Bueller

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I'm saying, this passage, is true. You seem to think it's not.

But you aren't saying why. I'm inviting you to address the passage itself, Colossians 3:1-3, and it's statement that if you have been raised with Christ, you will appear with Him.

Are you claiming it doesn't say that? Or that it's not true?
Colossians 3:1-3 is absolutely 100% true...as long as you continue to believe.
You believe that too. It's just that you believe that the true believer has no choice but to continue to believe. He can never stop believing. So why argue about it? The important thing is that a person know that they must continue to believe to the very end to be saved in the very end. For you continued believing shows you are a true believer. For me continued believing means you continue to possess what has been promised.
 

marks

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The problem is, how do you make such a plainly stated verse sound as if it's saying something else.

If you've been raised with Him, you've died, and your life is hid with Him. When He appears, you too will appear with Him, in glory.

Very straightforward. That's what makes this so simple. These simple and clear statements will be a part of any true understanding of our new life in Christ.

Much love!
 

marks

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Colossians 3:1-3 is absolutely 100% true...as long as you continue to believe.
So you are saying it may be false for you, if at some imagined time in the future you "stop believing", at which time you prove the verse false, since you won't appear with him, and prophecy is broken, unfulfilled.

That you were in fact raised with Him, you had in fact died with Him, but you won't in fact appear with Him.

I don't think I'm going to go with that kind of thinking.

I'm betting on the accuracy of Scripture.

Much love!
 

Ferris Bueller

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I maintain that we can hold to the plain and simple truths without having to change any of the meanings of the words or phrases.
What word or phrase did I change the meaning of?

What I did was say the entirety of scripture shows us that the promise/prophecy of Colossians 3:1-3 is for people who continue to believe. Which as I'm showing you is what you believe too. We're not in disagreement here. What we disagree on is if a person can really stop believing or not. Who cares? We both agree that you have to believe to the very end to be saved!
 

Ferris Bueller

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So you are saying it may be false for you, if at some imagined time in the future you "stop believing"
It's false for the person who stops believing only in that it does not apply to them anymore.
You say it never applied to them if they stop believing.
So why are we arguing? We both agree the promise/prophecy is only applicable to believing people.
 

marks

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What word or phrase did I change the meaning of?
I don't know, but while you claim to believe it, yet as you go on it's apparent you don't. You apparently envision an imagined future time when you might "stop believing", and prove the passage false.

So on the one hand you claim to believe it, but then you act as though it weren't true.

IF you've been raised with Him . . . you shall appear with Him. This simple as it gets, so long as you consider God reliable.

"Believing" isn't even a part of this passage. If you've been raised with Him (I relate this to our being baptized into Christ, in His death and burial, to join in His resurrection), you will appear with you.

You are inserting conditions which do not appear in this passage, and that significantly alter the meaning of the passage. I've learned that's a good time to relook at my views, should I feel I have to do that.

Much love!
 
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Ferris Bueller

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if at some imagined time in the future you "stop believing", at which time you prove the verse false, since you won't appear with him, and prophecy is broken, unfulfilled.
No, not false.
The promise/prophecy is not broken, or false. It simply doesn't apply to you.
The promises of God are only for those who believe and continue to believe.
You just think a person can never stop believing.
Good! At least you defend the necessity to keep believing. I do too!
 

marks

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It's false for the person who stops believing only in that it does not apply to them anymore.
The verse says this applies if a person is raised with Christ. That's the condition. So anyone who is raised with Christ, now, will appear with Him, then.

A simply stated condition, with a simple outcome, that's all there is to this particular prophecy. It's given for those raised with Him, and it will be fulfilled as All Biblical prophecy will be fulfilled.

Much love!
 

Ferris Bueller

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"Believing" isn't even a part of this passage.
That's right. Good point.
And so you can see how the passage was not intended to be a complete and total picture of the promise of salvation.
That complete picture comes from the totality of scripture, not just a piece of it.
Your point proves exactly what I'm saying.
Another person may look at that passage and conclude you don't have to continue to be a believer to appear with Christ when he returns, because it says nothing about believing or continuing to believe. And so even you have to reach outside of the passage to defend your belief about the matter.
 

marks

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Good! At least you defend the necessity to keep believing. I do too!
You act as if this were what I were saying, and that is disengenuous.

What I'm saying is that God gave a prophecy for those who are raised with Christ. This prophecy is that they will appear with Christ in glory. I say that prophecy will be fulfulled, for all who are raised with Christ.

You've responded that it won't actually be fulfulled for those who are raised with Christ, but rather, only if they continue to fulfill a condition you seem to feel the need to put there. Apparently you think that someone who is raises with Christ might somehow disqualify themself from receiving the fulfillment of this prophecy, and that there may be those for whom it is not in fact fulfulled. Based on conditions that don't appear here, that you add in.

I believe that we don't need to make these kinds of, what are to me aggregious changes to the text, to reach harmony in our understandings.

But first we have to be willing to deal with the words as written.

Much love!
 

Ferris Bueller

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It's given for those raised with Him, and it will be fulfilled as All Biblical prophecy will be fulfilled.
...Yes, for those who continue to believe. It's conditional...

"As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life." 1 John 2:24-25
A person can't just decide they're going to ignore or creatively interpret other scripture to make another scripture mean what they want it to say. You have to take the whole counsel of scriptures and formulate doctrine that keeps all the passage of scripture about a subject in harmony.
 

Ferris Bueller

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Apparently you think that someone who is raises with Christ might somehow disqualify themself from receiving the fulfillment of this prophecy, and that there may be those for whom it is not in fact fulfulled. Based on conditions that don't appear here, that you add in.
I didn't add it in. As I'm showing you, God himself added it into the whole counsel of scripture. You're ignoring the whole counsel of scripture.
 

Enoch111

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For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
You should take careful note of what Peter has said. These people have "known the way of righteousness" but Peter does not say "they have known Christ, and He has known them personally". There are many who know the way of righteousness (what is righteous and what is not) and even profess to be Christians. They may even do miracles in the name of Christ. But Jesus will say to them "I never knew you". That speaks of a personal relationship which was non-existent.
 
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Enoch111

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Note: all those who doubt the eternal security of the believer have not fully understood the Gospel nor what Christ accomplished on behalf of sinners. So they need to go back to square one.
 
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Michiah-Imla

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Note: all those who doubt the eternal security of the believer have not fully understood the Gospel nor what Christ accomplished on behalf of sinners. So they need to go back to square one.

Those who believe in “eternal security” have believed man’s word over God’s word.

Plain and simple.

All that you can do is twist all the warning scriptures: man teaches you how to become good at that trade.

Good words and fair speeches is all that “eternal security” teachers have. It plays well to the flesh, not the Spirit.

The flesh remains comfortable with the occasional sin and disobedience to God’s word in “eternal security”.
 

Ferris Bueller

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There is no contradiction. You've stated there is, what is it?
The contradiction exists in your understanding of Colossians 3:1-4. The two passages we're talking about all by themselves do not contradict each other. Your theology makes them contradict.

If a person stops believing they are no longer 'risen with him' that the promise/prophecy should somehow still apply to them.
You just believe that if they stop believing they were never 'raised with him' to begin with.
 
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Taken

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Sonship. He shares our humanity, and we share His Sonship.

He became a man, so we can become sons of God.

Much love!

Agree, Your one-liner is good summary.
...It's the difference between;
Gods Understanding
AND
mans understanding
OF
How and What that means that becomes misunderstood.

* God IS A Spirit without Beginning, that Does Not Change.

* Men HAVE A Spirit with a Beginning, that
"Can" Change. (By, Through, Of the Power of God.)

* God IS NOT Man.
* A man IS NOT God.

* God CAN appear, in the LIKENESS AS a man. Look, Speak, BE "CALLED a man."
* Men CAN appear, in the LIKENESS AS "a god." Look, Speak, Be "called a god".

The MYSTERY IS:
God's SPIRIT Does NOT CHANGE.
God CHANGES the "spirits" of "willing" men.

The REVEALING IS: hangs on the word "LIKENESS".

The REVEALING IS:
God IS NOT Seen by the eyes of earthly men.
A mans spirit, (natural or quickened), IS NOT
Seen by the eyes of earthly men.

WHAT IS "seen" by the eyes of earthly men; IS a "REFLECTION" of Gods Spirit...'with' a man, OR "with-IN" a man.

Gods Spirit, "with" a man...the man is called; "a godly man".
^ THAT, "can BE", a Temporary Condition, OR a "Permanent Condition".
^ TEMPORARY ? The man STOPS believing.
^ TEMPORARY ? The man is NOT "with" God.
^ TEMPORARY ? God is NOT "with" the man.
^ PERMANENT ? The man 'CONTINUES" believing, (enduring) to the END of his NATURAL BODILY life.
^ AT the End of a mans BODILY life, whereby the man, CONTINUED in Belief, CONTINUED "with" God...THAT MAN, THEN has obtained status "of SAINT".

Gods Spirit, "with-IN" a man...the man is called; "a saint".
^ Gods Offering, BY, THROUGH, OF, Gods WORD, (JESUS) God SENT to Earth, IN the "LIKENESS AS A MAN...
^ TO: speak, preach, teach Gods OFFERING; TO mankind.
^ TO: GIVE "willing" mankind (who Accept Gods Offering)...BY, THROUGH, OF, Gods POWER (CHRIST) whom God REVEALED the KNOWLEDGE (of His Power) TO Men...
^ THAT ONCE and FOREVER, God WILL BE "WITH" a willing man, and "KEPT" "WITH" a willing man.....expressly by GODS POWER, BEING..."WITH-IN" the willing man, FOR THE DURATION of "that willing mans..."NATURAL bodily life".
WHICH IS: precisely Gods POWER "IN" a willing man, WHICH IS EFFECTING An ASSURITY of that mans ENDURANCE TO BE WITH God FOREVER .

* It's called, A NEW BETTER TESTAMENT of ASSURITY, for a man to KNOW for Certain: Dispite all the cunning trickery, evil, wickedness increasing exponentially IN the World, and a man TRYING "by his own power" "enduring" to "remain godly" to the end of his bodily life....his "endurance"...
IS "guaranteed", IS "already effected"...
BY, THROUGH, OF, Gods POWER, "with-IN" a willing man...PERIOD!

Gods WORD of assurity.
Heb 7
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Gods POWER.
1 Cor 1:
[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Gods KNOWLEDGE
1 John 3:
[20] For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Gods WISDOM
1 Cor 1:
[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Gods CONDITION
Rom 10:
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Gods PROMISE
You shall BE "saved" and
"KEPT saved UNTO HIM", by HIS POWER IN you.
John 14
[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide "with" you for ever;
[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost...

ETERNAL SECURITY
OP ^

Yes..."IF" an individual man, willingly accepts Gods Offering, According to Gods, Order and Way.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Ferris Bueller

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Go ahead then and show me what that verse means, if it's not what it appears to be saying.
It means exactly what it says:

"1Therefore, since you have been raised with Christ, strive for the things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is youra life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory." Colossians 3:1-4

The point you're not getting is the person who stops believing is not a person "raised with Christ". And so the verse doesn't apply to them. We just differ in that you say if they stopped believing it never applied to them, while I say it ceases to apply to them. But who cares? Either way, you ain't gonna be saved when Jesus comes back if you don't keep believing. That's the important point.
 
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