All Israel Will Be Saved

Isaiah 30:1-14 The Lord says; woe to Israel, a race of rebels who refuse His Laws. They ask for preachers to ‘give us smooth words and illusions’.
ALL of God’s people, Judah, plus the ten tribes still in exile, plus those grafted in.

Isaiah 30:15-18 These are the words of the Lord; In calm detachment lies your safety, your strength in quiet trust.
But you would have none of it, therefore you will be put to flight.
Yet the Lord is waiting to show you His favor and compassion, for He is a God of justice. Happy are all who wait for Him! Luke 12:37

Isaiah 30:19-24 People of Zion, weep no more. The Lord will answer you when you call for help. He gives you adversity and affliction now, but your teachers will no longer be hidden from you, you will see them with your own eyes. If you stray from the right path, you will hear a voice behind you saying- ‘this is the Way, follow it’. You will loath your images and will treat your idols [sorcery, false religions, materialism, etc] like filth. Hosea 14:8 & Ezekiel 11:18

The Lord will give rain and the Land will produce rich crops. Your livestock will prosper. Isaiah 41:17-19 & Ezekiel 34:14-16

Isaiah 30:25-28 On the Day of slaughter, when fortresses fall, streams of water will flow from every hill. The moon will shine like the sun and sunlight will be seven times brighter on the Day the Lord heals the wounds of His people. Isaiah 63:4
See the Lord Himself comes from afar, with anger and wrath, in dense clouds of smoke. His breath is a rushing torrent, He shakes the nations in a sieve of destruction. Ezekiel 30:2-5, Habakkuk 3:12, Isaiah 66:15-17


Isaiah 30:29-33Then the Lord will make His voice heard in majesty and reveal His arm descending in fierce anger, with devouring flames, thunder and hail. [Hebrews 10:27]
For at His voice, Assyria’s strength fails, His punishing Rod strikes them down. A fire pit is prepared by Jerusalem, ready for the Lord to set it ablaze with His breath, like a stream of burning sulphur. Ezekiel 20:47-48

But for you there will be songs and gladness of heart as you march to music, on the way to the Mountain of the Lord.
Zechariah 10:10-12, Psalms 68:7-12, Isaiah 66:18b-21, Romans 9:24-26
Ref, REB some verses abridged


Verse 10 is appropriate for our days, as false religions, prosperity theology, etc. are preached everywhere. Hosea 4:7-11

Verses 25-28 & 30-33 the Lords Day of vengeance, a fire judgement on His enemies, as we are told in verse 26, will be a massive explosion of the sun that will literally fulfil all the prophesies about that Day. Revelation 6:12-17

Verse 29 Then; ‘you’ = every faithful believer, Christians from every race nation and language; will gather into all of the Promised Land. Jeremiah 33:6-14, Psalms 107, Isaiah 35:1-10, Zechariah 8:1-8

Verses 19-24 are for the period after His people, all faithful Christians, are resettled in the Land. They will have God given leaders and teachers to guide them until Jesus Returns. Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11

Truth7t7 said:

Sounds like Jehovahs Witness doctrine, in the 144,000 chosen ones, ruling in heaven around Gods throne?

Are you Jehovah's Witness?

Click to expand...

Yes, I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, but what was expressed is from what Jesus said, that those who make up God's Kingdom are "a little flock" (Luke 12:32) in relation to those who will "inherit the earth" forever, called "meek" ones.(Ps 37:11, 29)

Jesus is also one of Jehovah's Witnesses, for Revelation 3:14 call him "the faithful and true witness". At Isaiah 55, Jehovah says of Jesus: "Look ! I made him a witness to the nations, a leader and commander to the nations. Look ! You (Jesus Christ) will call a (new) nation (Matt 21:43; called "the Israel of God" of 144,000 selected from the earth, Gal 6:16) that you do not know (or existed when he manifested himself in 29-33 C.E. as the promised Messiah, Dan 9:24-27), and those of a nation who have not known you will run to you for the sake of Jehovah your God, the Holy One of Israel, because he (Jehovah God) will glorify you (Jesus Christ). Search for Jehovah while he may be found. Call to him while he is near."(Isa 55:4-6) This "little flock" numbers 144,001 (the "one" is Jesus Christ as the premier king-priest, being "designated by God a high priest in the manner of Melchizedek", Heb 5:10, and who is its "Leader", Matt 23:10)

Jesus came to the earth to fulfill Isaiah 49, that says: "Jehovah has called me before I was born (through Mary). From the time I was in my mother’s womb he has made mention of my name (Luke 1:42, 43).......He said to me (Jesus Christ): “You are my servant, O Israel (as the new "nation"), through whom I will show my splendor".......And now Jehovah, the One who formed me from the womb as his servant, has said for me to bring Jacob back to him (or the new "nation" consisting of both Jew and Gentile), so that Israel may be gathered to him. I (Jesus Christ) will be glorified in the eyes of Jehovah (John 17:1-5), and my God will have become my strength (or "throne", Ps 45:6; Heb 1:8, 9). And he said: “It is not enough that you are my servant to raise up the (symbolic) tribes of Jacob (see Matt 19:28) and to bring back those who were preserved of (spiritual) Israel. I (Jehovah God) have also given you as a light of nations, so that my salvation may reach the ends of the earth (or individuals from all nations to have an opportunity to become "meek" ones and inherit the paradise earth [Ps 37:11, 29], called "the other sheep" at John 10:16).”(Isa 49:1, 3, 5, 6)

Guestman said:

Yes, I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, but what was expressed is from what Jesus said, that those who make up God's Kingdom are "a little flock" (Luke 12:32) in relation to those who will "inherit the earth" forever, called "meek" ones.(Ps 37:11, 29)

Jesus is also one of Jehovah's Witnesses, for Revelation 3:14 call him "the faithful and true witness". At Isaiah 55, Jehovah says of Jesus: "Look ! I made him a witness to the nations, a leader and commander to the nations. Look ! You (Jesus Christ) will call a (new) nation (Matt 21:43; called "the Israel of God" of 144,000 selected from the earth, Gal 6:16) that you do not know (or existed when he manifested himself in 29-33 C.E. as the promised Messiah, Dan 9:24-27), and those of a nation who have not known you will run to you for the sake of Jehovah your God, the Holy One of Israel, because he (Jehovah God) will glorify you (Jesus Christ). Search for Jehovah while he may be found. Call to him while he is near."(Isa 55:4-6) This "little flock" numbers 144,001 (the "one" is Jesus Christ as the premier king-priest, being "designated by God a high priest in the manner of Melchizedek", Heb 5:10, and who is its "Leader", Matt 23:10)

Jesus came to the earth to fulfill Isaiah 49, that says: "Jehovah has called me before I was born (through Mary). From the time I was in my mother’s womb he has made mention of my name (Luke 1:42, 43).......He said to me (Jesus Christ): “You are my servant, O Israel (as the new "nation"), through whom I will show my splendor".......And now Jehovah, the One who formed me from the womb as his servant, has said for me to bring Jacob back to him (or the new "nation" consisting of both Jew and Gentile), so that Israel may be gathered to him. I (Jesus Christ) will be glorified in the eyes of Jehovah (John 17:1-5), and my God will have become my strength (or "throne", Ps 45:6; Heb 1:8, 9). And he said: “It is not enough that you are my servant to raise up the (symbolic) tribes of Jacob (see Matt 19:28) and to bring back those who were preserved of (spiritual) Israel. I (Jehovah God) have also given you as a light of nations, so that my salvation may reach the ends of the earth (or individuals from all nations to have an opportunity to become "meek" ones and inherit the paradise earth [Ps 37:11, 29], called "the other sheep" at John 10:16).”(Isa 49:1, 3, 5, 6)

Click to expand...

Thanks for your honesty

I disagree with the teachings of (Charles Taze Russell) founder of the Jehovahs Witnesses, and the "Little Flock" of 144,000, also the many other teachings of Russell

Once again thanks for your honesty, Jesus Is The Lord God Jehovah

Disclaimer: I only read a few posts in this thread, so I apologize if I repeat what someone else may have posted. I am writing from a (there is no the) full preterist perspective. The view is my own and I don't represent or speak for any particular sect. A couple of details are still a bit fuzzy, but I'm hoping as I write my thoughts down here, they will become more crisp, which is what often happens.

In order to understand my view regarding Romans 11:11 and following, it is helpful if I point to the background in the OT that, to me, informs the discussion.

It is necessary, or at least, very helpful, I believe, to understand that Deuteronomy 32 is prophecy about the last days of the then (in Deuteronomy), newly ratified Sinai Covenant and the house of Judah's Temple based theocracy.

Moses says that his song is about their last days, when God would slay all but a small remnant of them:

[Deuteronomy 32:20-27 NASB20] (20) "Then He said, 'I will hide My face from them, I will see what their end [will be;] For they are a perverse generation, Sons in whom there is no faithfulness. (21) 'They have made Me jealous with [what] is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with [those who are] not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation, (22) For a fire has flared in My anger, And it burns to the lowest part of Sheol, And devours the earth with its yield, And sets on fire the foundations of the mountains. (23) 'I will add misfortunes to them; I will use up My arrows on them. (24) '[They will be] wasted by famine, and emaciated by plague And a bitter epidemic; And the teeth of beasts I will send against them, With the venom of crawling things of the dust. (25) 'Outside the sword will make [them] childless, And inside, terror-- Both young man and virgin, The nursing child with the man of gray hair. (26) 'I would have said, "I will wipe them out, I will remove the mention of their name from humanity," (27) Had I not feared the provocation by the enemy, That their adversaries would misjudge, That they would say, "Our hand is triumphant, And the LORD has not performed all this."'

This should all look familiar to you. Peter, in Acts, says that the Sign of Joel had arrived, providing proof positive that the Last Days (of the Judean Temple based Theocracy) had arrived:

[Acts 2:14-21 NASB20] (14) But Peter, taking his stand with the [other] eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, know this, and pay attention to my words. (15) "For these people are not drunk, as you assume, since it is [only] the third hour of the day; (16) but this is what has been spoken through the prophet Joel: (17) 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS WILL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN WILL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN WILL HAVE DREAMS; (18) AND EVEN ON MY MALE AND FEMALE SERVANTS I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT IN THOSE DAYS, And they will prophesy. (19) 'AND I WILL DISPLAY WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW, BLOOD, FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE. (20) 'THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD COMES. (21) 'AND IT SHALL BE [THAT] EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'

He call HIS generation a "crooked generation" using the same word as Moses used in Deuteronomy 32:5!:

[Acts 2:40 RSV] (40) And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."

Deuteronomy 32:21ff is the very passage that Paul quotes in Romans 10:

[Romans 10:19 NKJV] (19) But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says: "I will provoke you to jealousy by [those who are] not a nation, I will move you to anger by a foolish nation."

Deuteronomy 32:22-25 describes God's a fire, arrows, famine, plague and the teeth of beasts and more. These are described in Matthew 24, Luke 21 and the Beasts of war described in Revelation:

[Luke 21:20-23 NKJV] (20) "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. (21) "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. (22) "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (23) "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land [of Judea] and wrath upon this [Judean] people.

For the reason that this is about the house of Judah, please see Hosea 1. Israel had become covenantally dead long before the first century. Ezekiel prophesied to the dead that God would cause them to be resurrected:

[Ezekiel 37:11-14 NLT] (11) Then he said to me, "Son of man, these bones represent the people of Israel. They are saying, 'We have become old, dry bones--all hope is gone. Our nation is finished.' (12) Therefore, prophesy to them and say, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I will open your graves of exile and cause you to rise again. Then I will bring you back to the land of Israel. (13) When this happens, O my people, you will know that I am the LORD. (14) I will put my Spirit in you, and you will live again and return home to your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken, and I have done what I said. Yes, the LORD has spoken!'"

This was the earthly mission of Jesus:

[Matthew 4:19 NASB20] (19) And He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of people."

The were the wayward son of Luke 15 while the Judean were the older son!

I don't have time to draw together all the connections, but you get the idea. Paul (and the whole NT) is speaking of the Last Days, not of the whole planet, but of the house of Judah (which was the last of the Sinai Covenant People. About 40 years after the earthly ministry of Christ, the Temple, Jerusalem, etc. was all destroyed and there were no more biblical Judeans (which is the actual word translated "Jews" in the NT). The Sinai Covenant is over and only those Jews (and gentiles) that are fused with Christ in the New Covenant that are the Israel of God aka the Members of the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, the Branches of the True Vine, the Sheep of the Good Shepherd, the Living Stones of the Building Not Made With Hands, the City On a Hill, the New Jerusalem, God's Field and God's Building, etc., etc., etc.

So what Paul is speaking about in Romans 9-11 is that God's promise for the Deliverer to come to/from Zion and take away their sins was that when Jesus returned c. 70 AD/CE and emptied Hades and separated the sheep from the goats and so on, he was not talking about gathering the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. They died so they could be married to another. The dead in Hades died so they could be married to another. They were the 144,000 first fruits, who followed the Lambkin where ever he went, etc.

They became the New People Bringing Forth the Fruit Thereof, the Kingdom of God, etc. and the gentiles that followed were like the gentiles that joined Israel according to the flesh.

So, the bottom line is, “So, all Israel will be saved” is the conclusion to the apparent problem, that it appears that Israel won’t be successfully saved:

[Romans 9:1-6 NASB20] (1) I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, (2) that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. (3) For I could wish that I myself were accursed, [separated] from Christ for the sake of my countrymen, my kinsmen according to the flesh, (4) who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons [and daughters,] the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the [temple] service, and the promises; (5) whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. (6) But [it is] not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are [descended] from Israel;

IE: The promise has not failed, it only referred to the remnant.

I will try to answer any questions/objections I may have raised.

Peace.

Ruminator said:

I am writing from a (there is no the) full preterist perspective. The view is my own and I don't represent or speak for any particular sect. A couple of details are still a bit fuzzy, but I'm hoping as I write my thoughts down here, they will become more crisp, which is what often happens.

In order to understand my view regarding Romans 11:11 and following, it is helpful if I point to the background in the OT that, to me, informs the discussion.

It is necessary, or at least, very helpful, I believe, to understand that Deuteronomy 32 is prophecy about the last days of the then (in Deuteronomy), newly ratified Sinai Covenant and the house of Judah's Temple based theocracy.

Moses says that his song is about their last days, when God would slay all but a small remnant of them:

[Deuteronomy 32:20-27 NASB20] (20) "Then He said, 'I will hide My face from them, I will see what their end [will be;] For they are a perverse generation, Sons in whom there is no faithfulness. (21) 'They have made Me jealous with [what] is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with [those who are] not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation, (22) For a fire has flared in My anger, And it burns to the lowest part of Sheol, And devours the earth with its yield, And sets on fire the foundations of the mountains. (23) 'I will add misfortunes to them; I will use up My arrows on them. (24) '[They will be] wasted by famine, and emaciated by plague And a bitter epidemic; And the teeth of beasts I will send against them, With the venom of crawling things of the dust. (25) 'Outside the sword will make [them] childless, And inside, terror-- Both young man and virgin, The nursing child with the man of gray hair. (26) 'I would have said, "I will wipe them out, I will remove the mention of their name from humanity," (27) Had I not feared the provocation by the enemy, That their adversaries would misjudge, That they would say, "Our hand is triumphant, And the LORD has not performed all this."'

This should all look familiar to you. Peter, in Acts, says that the Sign of Joel had arrived, providing proof positive that the Last Days (of the Judean Temple based Theocracy) had arrived:

[Acts 2:14-21 NASB20] (14) But Peter, taking his stand with the [other] eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, know this, and pay attention to my words. (15) "For these people are not drunk, as you assume, since it is [only] the third hour of the day; (16) but this is what has been spoken through the prophet Joel: (17) 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS WILL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN WILL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN WILL HAVE DREAMS; (18) AND EVEN ON MY MALE AND FEMALE SERVANTS I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT IN THOSE DAYS, And they will prophesy. (19) 'AND I WILL DISPLAY WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW, BLOOD, FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE. (20) 'THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD COMES. (21) 'AND IT SHALL BE [THAT] EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'

He call HIS generation a "crooked generation" using the same word as Moses used in Deuteronomy 32:5!:

[Acts 2:40 RSV] (40) And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."

Deuteronomy 32:21ff is the very passage that Paul quotes in Romans 10:

[Romans 10:19 NKJV] (19) But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says: "I will provoke you to jealousy by [those who are] not a nation, I will move you to anger by a foolish nation."

Deuteronomy 32:22-25 describes God's a fire, arrows, famine, plague and the teeth of beasts and more. These are described in Matthew 24, Luke 21 and the Beasts of war described in Revelation:

[Luke 21:20-23 NKJV] (20) "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. (21) "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. (22) "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (23) "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land [of Judea] and wrath upon this [Judean] people.

For the reason that this is about the house of Judah, please see Hosea 1. Israel had become covenantally dead long before the first century. Ezekiel prophesied to the dead that God would cause them to be resurrected:

[Ezekiel 37:11-14 NLT] (11) Then he said to me, "Son of man, these bones represent the people of Israel. They are saying, 'We have become old, dry bones--all hope is gone. Our nation is finished.' (12) Therefore, prophesy to them and say, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I will open your graves of exile and cause you to rise again. Then I will bring you back to the land of Israel. (13) When this happens, O my people, you will know that I am the LORD. (14) I will put my Spirit in you, and you will live again and return home to your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken, and I have done what I said. Yes, the LORD has spoken!'"

This was the earthly mission of Jesus:

[Matthew 4:19 NASB20] (19) And He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of people."

The were the wayward son of Luke 15 while the Judean were the older son!

I don't have time to draw together all the connections, but you get the idea. Paul (and the whole NT) is speaking of the Last Days, not of the whole planet, but of the house of Judah (which was the last of the Sinai Covenant People. About 40 years after the earthly ministry of Christ, the Temple, Jerusalem, etc. was all destroyed and there were no more biblical Judeans (which is the actual word translated "Jews" in the NT). The Sinai Covenant is over and only those Jews (and gentiles) that are fused with Christ in the New Covenant that are the Israel of God aka the Members of the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, the Branches of the True Vine, the Sheep of the Good Shepherd, the Living Stones of the Building Not Made With Hands, the City On a Hill, the New Jerusalem, God's Field and God's Building, etc., etc., etc.

So what Paul is speaking about in Romans 9-11 is that God's promise for the Deliverer to come to/from Zion and take away their sins was that when Jesus returned c. 70 AD/CE and emptied Hades and separated the sheep from the goats and so on, he was not talking about gathering the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. They died so they could be married to another. The dead in Hades died so they could be married to another. They were the 144,000 first fruits, who followed the Lambkin where ever he went, etc.

They became the New People Bringing Forth the Fruit Thereof, the Kingdom of God, etc. and the gentiles that followed were like the gentiles that joined Israel according to the flesh.

So, the bottom line is, “So, all Israel will be saved” is the conclusion to the apparent problem, that it appears that Israel won’t be successfully saved:

[Romans 9:1-6 NASB20] (1) I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, (2) that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. (3) For I could wish that I myself were accursed, [separated] from Christ for the sake of my countrymen, my kinsmen according to the flesh, (4) who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons [and daughters,] the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the [temple] service, and the promises; (5) whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. (6) But [it is] not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are [descended] from Israel;

IE: The promise has not failed, it only referred to the remnant.

I will try to answer any questions/objections I may have raised.

Peace.

Click to expand...

Your Full Preterist?

You deny a literal future second coming of Jesus Christ?

Truth7t7 said:

Your Full Preterist?

You deny a literal future second coming of Jesus Christ?

Click to expand...

I hope and pray they Do not deny such a thing . Jesus gave dire warning about this . Do not say in your heart my LORD delays His coming .

Truth7t7 said:

Your Full Preterist?

You deny a literal future second coming of Jesus Christ?

Click to expand...

Correct. The Kingdom of God is an everlasting Kingdom; it has no end.

amigo de christo said:

I hope and pray they Do not deny such a thing . Jesus gave dire warning about this . Do not say in your heart my LORD delays His coming .

Click to expand...

I am not the one saying that the LORD delayed his coming! Revelation said he was coming quickly, not thousands of years in the future!:

[Luke 21:29-33 NASB20] (29) And He told them a parable: "Look at the fig tree and all the trees: (30) as soon as they put forth [leaves,] you see for yourselves and know that summer is now near. (31) "So you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. (32) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. (33) "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

[Matthew 23:34-38 NASB20] (34) "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will flog in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, (35) so that upon you will fall [the guilt of] all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. (36) "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. (37) "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. (38) "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

Ruminator said:

Correct. The Kingdom of God is an everlasting Kingdom; it has no end.

Click to expand...

Many would consider your views as heretical, and I wouldn't argue against their opinion

The second coming of Jesus Christ is a pillar in the christian faith

Ruminator said:

I am not the one saying that the LORD delayed his coming! Revelation said he was coming quickly, not thousands of years in the future!:

[Luke 21:29-33 NASB20] (29) And He told them a parable: "Look at the fig tree and all the trees: (30) as soon as they put forth [leaves,] you see for yourselves and know that summer is now near. (31) "So you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. (32) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. (33) "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

[Matthew 23:34-38 NASB20] (34) "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will flog in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, (35) so that upon you will fall [the guilt of] all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. (36) "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. (37) "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. (38) "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

Click to expand...

The bible teaches that Jesus Christ returns "Quickly", and this is described as in the "Twinkling Of An Eye"

To bend and twist this simple teaching, suggesting Jesus Came and left is beyond words

Revelation 22:12KJV
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

1 Corinthians 15:52KJV
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Roman's 16:17KJV
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Do you agree that the sign of the prophet Joel happened in the Last Days? If it did, as recorded in Acts, then these are not the Last Days. See also:

[Hebrews 1:2 NKJV] (2) has in these last days spoken to us by [His] Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

[James 5:3 NKJV] (3) Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.

[1 John 2:18 NKJV] (18) Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

[1 Peter 4:17 NKJV] (17) For the time [has come] for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if [it begins] with us first, what will [be] the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

[Matthew 24:34 NASB20] (34) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

[Mark 13:30 NASB20] (30) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

[Luke 21:32 NASB20] (32) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.

[Matthew 10:23 NASB20] (23) "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish [going through] the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

[Philippians 4:5 NLT] (5) Let everyone see that you are considerate in all you do. Remember, the Lord is coming soon.

[1 Peter 4:7 NKJV] (7) But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.

[Revelation 3:11 NLT] (11) I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take away your crown.

[Revelation 22:7, 12, 20 NLT] (7) "Look, I am coming soon! Blessed are those who obey the words of prophecy written in this book." ... (12) "Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. ... (20) He who is the faithful witness to all these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon!" Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!

If you read my first post, then you know that the sign of Joel was given in the first century, not the twenty first century.

And so on...

Ruminator said:

Do you agree that the sign of the prophet Joel happened in the Last Days? If it did, as recorded in Acts, then these are not the Last Days. See also:

[Hebrews 1:2 NKJV] (2) has in these last days spoken to us by [His] Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

[James 5:3 NKJV] (3) Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.

[1 John 2:18 NKJV] (18) Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

[1 Peter 4:17 NKJV] (17) For the time [has come] for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if [it begins] with us first, what will [be] the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

[Matthew 24:34 NASB20] (34) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

[Mark 13:30 NASB20] (30) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

[Luke 21:32 NASB20] (32) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.

[Matthew 10:23 NASB20] (23) "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish [going through] the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

And so on...

Click to expand...

Many would consider your views as heretical, and I wouldn't argue against their opinion

The future second coming of Jesus Christ that you deny, is a doctrinal pillar of the christian faith

Romans 16:17KJV
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

@Davy, the question in Matthew 24:3 is not about "the end of the world" but rather "the end of the age." The Jewish age ended with the destruction of the Temple c. 70 AD/CE.

The language of Zechariah and all the prophets is highly poetic, as is Revelation, etc.

What do you do about the Sign of Joel? I mean, that outpouring of sign gifts ended in the first century. This can't possibly be the Last Days.

Ruminator said:

the question in Matthew 24:3 is not about "the end of the world" but rather "the end of the age." The Jewish age ended with the destruction of the Temple c. 70 AD/CE.

Click to expand...

The Jews have re-established their nation. God has brought them back in apostasy, for Judgment.
The end of the current Church age, will be when Jesus Returns; 2000 years after he departed.

Ruminator said:

The language of Zechariah and all the prophets is highly poetic, as is Revelation, etc.

Click to expand...

It is; only to people who wish to make fables , or want to avoid the possibility that they may become involved in hard times. What is Written, which can be literally fulfilled; will be.

Ruminator said:

What do you do about the Sign of Joel? I mean, that outpouring of sign gifts ended in the first century. This can't possibly be the Last Days.

Click to expand...

The outpouring of God's Spirit, to the extent that Joel 2:28-29 prophesies, awaits the gathering of all the Lord's faithful Christian peoples into all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35, Romans 9:24-26

Which will happen after Joel 2:30-32 - the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, takes place.

@Keraz, yes, but with no Temple. God "disappeared" it:

[Hebrews 8:13 NASB20] (13) When He said, "A new [covenant,]" He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.

Looks like the mountain was literally split:



Zechariah 14 Fulfilled in the Maccabean Wars: A Preterist Commentary | Revelation Revolution

You don't think that Jesus fulfilled Ez 34:11ff?

[Ezekiel 34:11-12 NASB20] (11) For the Lord GOD says this: "Behold, I Myself will search for My sheep and look after them. (12) "As a shepherd cares for his flock on a day when he is among his scattered sheep, so I will care for My sheep and will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and gloomy day.

[Matthew 15:24 NASB20] (24) But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

[Luke 19:9-10 NASB20] (9) And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham. (10) "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

[Jeremiah 16:14-18 DBY] (14) Therefore, behold, days are coming, saith Jehovah, that it shall no more be said, [As] Jehovah liveth, who brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; (15) but, [As] Jehovah liveth, who brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them. For I will bring them again into their land, which I gave unto their fathers. (16) Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith Jehovah, and they shall fish them; and afterwards will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them, from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks. (17) For mine eyes are upon all their ways; they are not concealed from my face, neither is their iniquity hidden from before mine eyes. (18) But first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double, because they have profaned my land with the carcases of their detestable things, and with their abominations have they filled mine inheritance.

[Mark 1:14-18 DBY] (14) But after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee preaching the glad tidings of the kingdom of God, (15) and saying, The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God has drawn nigh; repent and believe in the glad tidings. (16) And walking by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon, and Andrew, [Simon's] brother, casting out a net in the sea, for they were fishers. (17) And Jesus said to them, Come after me, and I will make you become fishers of men; (18) and straightway leaving their trawl-nets they followed him.

Peace.

Ruminator said:

@Keraz, yes, but with no Temple. God "disappeared" it:

[Hebrews 8:13 NASB20] (13) When He said, "A new [covenant,]" He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.

Looks like the mountain was literally split:

Zechariah 14 Fulfilled in the Maccabean Wars: A Preterist Commentary | Revelation Revolution

You don't think that Jesus fulfilled Ez 34:11ff?

[Ezekiel 34:11-12 NASB20] (11) For the Lord GOD says this: "Behold, I Myself will search for My sheep and look after them. (12) "As a shepherd cares for his flock on a day when he is among his scattered sheep, so I will care for My sheep and will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and gloomy day.

[Matthew 15:24 NASB20] (24) But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

[Luke 19:9-10 NASB20] (9) And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham. (10) "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

[Jeremiah 16:14-18 DBY] (14) Therefore, behold, days are coming, saith Jehovah, that it shall no more be said, [As] Jehovah liveth, who brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; (15) but, [As] Jehovah liveth, who brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them. For I will bring them again into their land, which I gave unto their fathers. (16) Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith Jehovah, and they shall fish them; and afterwards will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them, from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks. (17) For mine eyes are upon all their ways; they are not concealed from my face, neither is their iniquity hidden from before mine eyes. (18) But first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double, because they have profaned my land with the carcases of their detestable things, and with their abominations have they filled mine inheritance.

[Mark 1:14-18 DBY] (14) But after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee preaching the glad tidings of the kingdom of God, (15) and saying, The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God has drawn nigh; repent and believe in the glad tidings. (16) And walking by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon, and Andrew, [Simon's] brother, casting out a net in the sea, for they were fishers. (17) And Jesus said to them, Come after me, and I will make you become fishers of men; (18) and straightway leaving their trawl-nets they followed him.

Peace.

Click to expand...

By reading some of your posts , i assume you are big on this end time we are one unity and all the faiths and religoins uniting as one
for world peace . If not , You soon will be .

@Keraz, that's simply an ad hominem attack. Unacceptable.

Ruminator said:

@Keraz, that's simply an ad hominem attack. Unacceptable.

Click to expand...

What I posted was a refutation of your unbiblical beliefs. It is wrong beliefs that are unacceptable.

BTW, I have walked up the Mount of Olives, to the top where the Chapel of the Ascension is.
There is no huge valley, as described by Zechariah 14:4