Eternal Security

marks said:

So are you saying that by your behavior, you can cause God to ignore His promise to never leave you or forsake you?

Much love!

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marks said:

What it means is you won't. He's got you save, kept by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed.

Much love!

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marks said:

I'm not ignoring it, but if we can't reach common ground on the more plainly stated passages, I don't think we will reach common ground on the passages which are not as plain.

"Continue in His goodness" could be considered an equal statement to "been raised with Christ", or, "born from above", or, "reconciled to God", or any number of specific and uncertain terms.

If it is equal, say, to "raised with Christ", then we need to understand how that relates to "if you've been raised with Christ . . . you shall appear with Him", and "otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." On the face of it making that equivalency introduces a contradiction.

Much love!

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marks said:

Yes, I know this is thought by a great many people. How do you walk away from what you are?

I'd ask that to anyone. Rebirth is recreation to a new person. It's a transfer from the humanity of Adam to the humanity of Christ. It's being moved from the kingdom of darkness into Jesus' kingdom. It's being changed from flesh born of flesh to spirit born of Spirit.

How do you "walk away" from that?

Are you able to "walk away" from being the human child of your earthly parents? How will you "walk away" from being the spirit child of God?



I have quite a view versions, but after all these years, I prefer literal word for word, and interlinears. The NIV or the Message never appear on my desk. I like the KJV, Holman, NASB, and I have several interlinears of the different versions.

Is there better reliability in older manuscripts?

They are fewer, show less agreement amongst themselves (by far), show many correcters, one salvaged from a trash pile, left there while Bible manuscripts were rare treasures, but mostly I see this as a matter of faith,

Psalms 119:89-90 KJV
89) LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
90) Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.

I believe God has in fact preserve His Word, for all generations, not just those who lived after the "real" Bible was found.

For myself, I think the New Testament is best represented in the Majority Manuscript, which what, 5500 + manuscript copies, showing something like 99.5% + agreement, in continuous use during all that time.

Much love!

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APAK said:

Well in 1 I mean there are people that decide for themselves what works are worthy to please God, as they boast and become proud in this process of performing these selfish works, that builds up their own ego and not necessarily to glorify God.

These are ultimately selfish works that are not of genuine faith. Their faith is from themselves and not given by God as his gift, essential to the process of growing into the new person and being saved. God does not see their works as holy works, only as trash.

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Ferris Bueller said:

They are necessary to be saved when Jesus comes back to judge the world.
But they are not necessary to make one righteous (Romans 4:6). Abraham did no work to have God's righteousness imputed to him. That happened entirely through his faith in the promises of God.
Works are only necessary toward showing that one has faith in God (James 2:24). Abraham showed that he believed God by what he did in offering Isaac in sacrifice.

This is confusing to people because, both, being made righteous, and being shown to be righteous are both referred to as 'being justified'. A genuine believer is, both, justified by faith apart from works, and, justified by works. IOW, the genuine believer is made righteous by faith apart from works, and is shown to be righteous by his works. Just as Abraham, our example, was. Paul and James are not in disagreement about this matter of justification.

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Lifelong_sinner said:

one thing i have noticed about you arminians, is you dont believe in false converts. Why is that?
You said; “Not ALL those that come to believe in Jesus and follow Him will still be doing this at the end of their life...
although I do believe the majority will because, as Peter says.”

This is simple to understand, there are many false converts. Also, i do not agree with you about the majority being saved. There will be BILLIONS who end up in hell. When Jesus said few will be saved, He was speaking truthfully. In todays world, it is said that only about 5-10% of church goers are actually saved. I believe that. False converts are dime a dozen, i should know, im one of them.
(BTW, im a presbyterian and extreme calvinist)

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APAK said:

Rollo is a few years older than me...remember him.. I guess he's on another site these days....he was/is a fun person who made me laugh

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marks said:

I see a great many Scriptures which either teach this very thing, or agree with that understanding.

And even so, just that one passage is not wrong.

You're assertion is that we should introduce a condition to be met that does not appear in the verse. It sounds good, and it seems to make sense, but the net result is to introduce doubt where God gives certainty.

It seems that your presupposition is that somehow, some who are raised with Him will not in fact appear with Him, and therefore, this additional condition is required.

And it equally seems that this passage carries it's own supposition, that your additional condition is not needed, and in fact, this is a thing that won't happen.

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And many other Scriptures agree. Peter tells us it's God Who is keeping us by His power through faith. This is to say that the faith in us that carries us through this life is God's power. He will not fail us.

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This is of course true! If you hold you confidence stedfast to the end, this means that you had become a partaker of Christ. If you do not, that means you had not actually become a partaker of Christ, even if you, or someone else thought you had.

Why is this important? The true children know. The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God. And the true children need to understand that all our concerns over all our problems will be addressed with Jesus comes, when we see Him, because we will become like Him.

And knowing that this is our new future, knowing that, he who has This Hope purifies himself, even as He is pure.

Knowing . . . not wondering . . . knowing that we will be like Him then means we purify ourselves now. If you do the one, you do the other.

And so I want to point people to a full trust in Jesus to accomplish all that is needed in your life, and you can just focus on enjoying His fellowship in this moment. If you are doing that, whatever else comes in your life, you will respond from the position of, I'm here, my Creator is here, and He loves me so much! Thinking about this passage, listening to that hymn, talking to Him, listening to that still voice, as we move through our day together. I love Him so much! Any issue, any question, difficulty, whatever, Jesus? What do we do? And the answer is there, or the answer waits. And either it goes the way I think I want, or it goes some other way, but Jesus is here, and He loves me so much!!

This doesn't come when yo are concerned that your eternal life could be ripped away from you - call it what you want, but the net result is fear.

Fear that maybe one day I'll just go too far.

Fear has torment, and the one who fears has not been matured in love. If our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our heart. He's not bound by our limitations, instead, He knows all things. He knows what we don't know, what He's going to do for us, but He's told us, so we can know, if we will only believe it's real.

Much love!

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marks said:

I don't like the labels, unless someone wants to use one for themself.

Much love!

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marks said:

So are you saying that by your behavior, you can cause God to ignore His promise to never leave you or forsake you?

Much love!

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Taken said:

...”if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off."

Rom 11:22 is clear.

What is not clear is Who “you” is.
“marks” point hangs on who “you” is, in application to “himself”.
* In context “you” Does Not Apply To Every Individual.
* In context “you” Does Apply To every individual WHO Believes IN God and is being Warned to Continue to Believe IN God, or be cut off.
* In context “Who” has a long history of Believing IN God?
* In context “What” have people Believing IN God historically been “called”?

Rom 11:1,2
* Historically, Israelites have believed IN God.
* Historically, Israelites Who continued IN Belief IN God, are Called “Gods People”.
* Historically, Israelites Who rejected God and Followed “Secular Gentile gods”,
Became “Cut Off”, From Being “Gods people”.
* A younger generation of Israelites “IN Rome” (a city controlled BY Gentile Influence OF Secular “gods”,) Are Being Warned of their Israelite History” of Israelites, Believing IN God, Then Accepting Gentile “gods”, Themselves were “cut off” from God.
* What does “That Warning” have to do WITH a “a man IN Christ”. ? Nothing!


Any man...
* An Israelite, a Gentile ...IS “with God” Because he believes IN God.
* An Israelite, a Gentile ..IS “with Jesus”
Because he Believes IN Jesus.
* (not a secret....an Israelite, a Gentile AT ANY Time Can STOP....Believing IN God, IN Jesus!!!
* And THE Knowledge and Warning IS:
Such individuals WILL BE CUT OFF.
* CUT OFF...From WHAT?
They are “Cut OFF From God, From Jesus....Being....WITH Them”. !!!

* Simple...any man Who Leaves God, Who Leaves Jesus...
Forewarning...
In turn...God WILL also Leave You.
In turn...Jesus WILL also Leave You.
* So what’s the Big Deal?
* Simple...
Forewarnings...
Thousands of EVIL spirits and WICKED men roam the Earth whispering and shouting IN the ears of men:
TO Reject God,
TO Reject Jesus...
and “Instead TRUST TO Accept and make an allegiance, Reliance, Subjection, Submission;
TO men”...
The Safety, the Security, Of men TO enrich you, TO provide For you, TO Save You!

* IF Any man can live their entire natural Life Span...Remaining IN Belief IN God, IN Jesus.... Despite the Constant Acts of EVIL spirits and WICKED men WHO suggest, WHO offer, WHO mandate, WHO force...men TO BE subjected TO Them FOR...Safety, Security, Provisions, For Saving their Life....
Good for them!

Open your Eyes...Open your Ears.
See, Listen To What men in Power positions OF the Whole World ARE Preaching, Offering, Mandating, Dictating, Forcing....
“Their Freebie Provisions, Their Safety, Their Saving men’s Lives....and IF a man Does Not Agree TO Subject himself, Submit himself.....he is CUT OFF, from life sustaining Provisions!!!”

Now Back TO Who is YOU

@ marks point and my point as well...
- marks and I have both made it abundantly Clear...WHO “we ARE”.

We have both Accepted “CHRIST’S” offering.
We both have our True Heartful Confession; “TO the Lord God OUR Belief IN God, and IN Jesus the Christ”, Whom God Sent WITH Gods Truth.
We have both Subjected and Submitted ourselves, By our word of Confession... TO CHRIST.

* Any prudent student OF Gods Word, Should have Learned....
* God is WITH a man who believes in God.
* God is NOT WITH a man who is not or stops believing in God.
* Jesus is WITH a man who believes in Jesus.
* Jesus is NOT WITH a man who is not or stops believing in Jesus.
* CHRIST IS THE POWER of God.
* Any man Who believes IN God, IN Jesus.....AND Heartfully Calls on the Lords Name AND Confesses his YES True Heartful Belief....
* IS a man WHOM the Power OF God (CHRIST) Enters that man...
Save that mans soul;
Quickens that mans Spirit;
Remains IN that mans Body For the rest of that mans Natural Physical Life.
* That man IS for the rest of His physical life...KEPT IN Belief IN God, IN Jesus... By GodS Power (CHRIST)
* No EVIL spirit...No WICKED man....even the man himself...
Can be tricked, forced, TO Reject The Lord God Almighty!

* Warning a man IN CHRIST to be cautious of evil spirits and wicked men IS VOID of merit....No created spirit, No man has Power Greater than God.
* Christ IN a man IS absolute assuredness, a guarantee that Forever the Lord God Almighty Will BE WITH that man and that man will forever BE WITH
The Lord God Almighty.
No power is Greater than Gods Power ...
Period.
A man with Gods Power IN him IS Forever WITH the Lord God Almighty...
Period.

When studying Scripture....stay in context of WHO is being preached TO, and taught WHAT and WHY.

Men Believing Can fall away...
(are depending on their own power)
Men IN Christ Can Not fall away!
(are depending ON Gods Power IN them)

Huge difference of What Power a man is depending ON.

Romans 11:22 Is explicitly clear...but does Not Apply To me. Expressly Because I am IN Christ and Christ (Gods Power) IS IN me, and Keeps me WITH The Lord God Almighty FOREVER!

And I would safely say by @marks testimony, Gods Power IS Forever Keeping marks WITH the Lord God Almighty...and he requires no warning about being Cut Off from the Lord God.

Glory to God,
Taken

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kcnalp said:

I love it when OSASers say I can NEVER be unsaved! Wish I could say the same for them.

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