You sound confused. You may need to meditate on the theme this thread is entitled, so you can understand whats being stated.
The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I’m not confused at all. Being on the same page as another does not make you that other being.
It seems to me that Calvinism in its most dogmatic version desires to remove man from all responsibility. God made him a rapist, God made him a molester, God picked him for salvation. Man was nothing more than a pawn. Those who go to Heaven are there only because God made them and those who go to Hell are there because made them. Man has no responsibility to repent, believe and have faith. You just have to claim that God picked you. Since God picked you now you are off the hook. Nothing you can do is going to cause you to be "un-picked". Commit murder, fornicate, bear false witness, sin without forgiveness, live by the flesh.
Now I know some Calvinist do not believe in it's most dogmatic version. Some have a watered down version. I think Calvinism played a role in the birth in Hyper-Grace and Hyper-Dispensationism. Satan is not trying to run a sprint to corrupt souls, he is good with a long slow gradual erosion of sound doctrine. God willing if this world hangs on another 20 years the erosion will reach a point that millions will be convinced that everyone is going to Heaven, the Bible is not true or inspired by God. The new world order religion will be large and prosperous. We see these things now, New Age, Passion, Prosperity but it will get worse before the end. The foothold Satan obtained was via the belief that man has no role in his own salvation.
Now I know some Calvinist do not believe in it's most dogmatic version. Some have a watered down version. I think Calvinism played a role in the birth in Hyper-Grace and Hyper-Dispensationism. Satan is not trying to run a sprint to corrupt souls, he is good with a long slow gradual erosion of sound doctrine. God willing if this world hangs on another 20 years the erosion will reach a point that millions will be convinced that everyone is going to Heaven, the Bible is not true or inspired by God. The new world order religion will be large and prosperous. We see these things now, New Age, Passion, Prosperity but it will get worse before the end. The foothold Satan obtained was via the belief that man has no role in his own salvation.
About the guilt offering, it is written "He shall also bring his guilt offering to YHWH for his sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin" (Leviticus 5:6).
So, @CadyandZoe, according to scripture:
- the guilt offering "shall make atonement", and "atone" means to be "at" "one" - that is "at one" with God - the sin has been forgiven and removed for there is no sin in God.
- the guilt offering includes a lamb "as a sin offering" which is for the cleansing from sin.
In your heart, you wickedly subtract the sin offering from the guilt offering.
It is written "YHWH was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, and the good pleasure of YHWH will prosper in His hand" (Isaiah 53:10).
God was "pleased" to "crush" the Christ for Christ successfully did "render Himself as a guilt offering".
Since Christ does "see His offspring" - this is possessive form, then He has ownership of "His offspring".
Isaiah was talking about Christ being punished for the sins of "His offspring".
"His offspring" are His "slaves of God" (1 Peter 2:16),
"His offspring" are His "slaves of Righteousness" (Romans 6:18).
Back to when you wrote "God wasn't absolving people of guilt".
Behold, both your and Isaiah's statements contain the word "guilt".
See the diametric opposition of your heart's thoughts against the Holy Scripture!
Paul wrote "the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. For these are opposed to one another" (Galatians 5:17)
For a complete scriptural refutation of your writing, please see post #2475.
Your thoughts that you wrote are the precepts of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).
Arminianism - free-willian philosophy - opposes the Word of God because the free-willian says "I chose Jesus".
The Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
Paul wrote "the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. For these are opposed to one another" (Galatians 5:17), so free-willian persons oppose the Word of God because the deceived free-willian does a work for salvation by their own way of their "I chose Jesus".
Here is more Christian teaching.
The Natural Is The First State Of Being For All Mere Mortals
Every man is accountable for his own sin for Paul wrote "since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20).
The Apostle Paul identifies every man starts out as a natural man with "the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual" (1 Corinthians 15:46).
The Apostle Paul explains that the commands of God are foolishness to man with a "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14)
The Apostle Paul declares that man's flesh opposes the Spirit of God with "the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. For these are opposed to one another" (Galatians 5:17).
THE FIRST STATE OF MAN IS OPPOSITION TO GOD, AND THE ONLY WAY (JOHN 14:6) FOR MAN'S SALVATION IS FOR GOD TO BIRTH MAN ANEW (JOHN 3:3-8), NOT A WORK OF A CHOICE BY MAN, BUT STRICTLY THE WORK OF GOD IN MAN (JOHN 6:29).
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
What sin did Jesus commit that he should bring a sin offering? Jesus was sinless. Right? So he didn't bring a guilt offering or a sin offering. Isaiah doesn't say that Jesus brought a sin offering.
I already pointed out that Isaiah speaks about the suffering in the past tense, when he says "If he should offer himself as a guilt offering . . ." speaking of a possible future. Therefore, the suffering can NOT be the offering Jesus offers to the Father.
Isaiah says that Jesus himself was the guilt offering. Not his death. Not his blood. His LIFE was the offering. Jesus offered his entire life of obedience to the Father as the so-called "guilt" offering. Isaiah says NOTHING about death or dying. You are reading death and dying into the passage where it doesn't exist.
The guilt offering isn't about payment or punishment. I wish you would pay attention to the definitions you quote because they inform you of your error. The offering, as the definition says, is for atonement and reconciliation, neither of which has anything to do with justice, or punishment.
Consider the following passage from the Apostle Paul's second epistle to the Corinthians.
2 Corinthians 5:16-21
Therefore from now on we recognize no one by the flesh; even though we have known Christ by the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Notice two important facts that pertain to our discussion here. First, Paul says that while the Father was reconciling the world to himself, he was not counting their wrongdoings against them. Understand? According to the satisfaction theory of the atonement, not only was God counting our sins against us, he was punishing Jesus instead of us. But Paul argues just the opposite. God was NOT counting our sins against us, but instead, he was making overtures toward peace.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Another scriptural reason why Christ did not die for all men without exception, its because those He died for, are dead to the Law Rom 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Now lets answer to questions here. What does it mean to be dead to the Law ? It means to be dead to its condemnation, curse and punishment. Thats because Christ has alreay bore those things in behalf of them He died for. Secondly, how did these believers become dead to the Law ? Was it by their believing ? Nope, was it by their repenting ? Nope, was it because they called upon the name of the Lord ? Nope, it was by the Body of Christ, which simply means by His death.
Now are all men without exception dead to the Law ? No, many will perish in their sins, sins against Gods law. Those Jesus shall say this to Matt 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Its the broken law which causes them to be cursed ! Deut 27:26; Eph 5:5-6
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Now lets answer to questions here. What does it mean to be dead to the Law ? It means to be dead to its condemnation, curse and punishment. Thats because Christ has alreay bore those things in behalf of them He died for. Secondly, how did these believers become dead to the Law ? Was it by their believing ? Nope, was it by their repenting ? Nope, was it because they called upon the name of the Lord ? Nope, it was by the Body of Christ, which simply means by His death.
Now are all men without exception dead to the Law ? No, many will perish in their sins, sins against Gods law. Those Jesus shall say this to Matt 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Its the broken law which causes them to be cursed ! Deut 27:26; Eph 5:5-6
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
It doesnt matter, the result is the same. Those He represented either way are made righteous.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
What makes you think that Christ obeyed the law for us? Where is THAT in scripture?
What makes you think that this is not in Scripture? So here is what the Bible says: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the Law, to redeem them that were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. (Gal 4:4,5)
Made of a woman = conceived supernaturally in Mary's virgin womb.
Made under the Law = a Torah observant Hebrew of the Hebrews.
The Law of Moses was obeyed perfectly by Christ, who was in fact the Author of that Law. But not according to the scribes and Pharisees. It was according to the Holy Spirit. That is why Christ could flatly tell His enemies that there was no sin in Him (John 8:46) even though they accused Him of it falsely.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Unquestionably Christ obeyed the law perfectly as you point out. That is not in dispute. I take issue with the Theological doctrine which holds that Christ obeyed the law "instead of us."
@brightfame52 is not talking about the righteousness that Christ exemplified through obedience; he is restating the reformer's position on "imputed righteousness."
Imputed righteousness is a concept in Christian theology proposing that the "righteousness of Christ ... is imputed to [believers] — that is, treated as if it were theirs through faith." It is on the basis of Jesus' righteousness that God accepts humans. This acceptance is also referred to as justification. [Wikipedia]
I disagree with the Reformers on this point. I don't think the Father has put on "Jesus glasses" so that every time he looks at me, he sees Jesus.
Even so, it seems to me that in Romans 5, Paul is talking about the obedience of Jesus, not his death on the cross as brightfame52 suggests.
I'm asking about the Theological doctrine
He is the propitiation for our sins:
1 Jn 2:1-2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
This passage of scripture is most commonly used and abused by men, religionist, in their defense of unlimited atonement, which is a lie, or to say Christ died for all men without exception. Again this is a false claim by them, for the passage never states that Christ died for all men without exception. No its stating of believers to whom John was writing, that Christ was not limited to just being the propitiation for their sins, but for believers of the whole world, to include believers of different ethnicities and during different times, as to say the believers of all time !
Another thing that disqualifies this passage to be teaching that Christ died for all without exception, is that its talking about God being propitiated, His wrath that is. The greek word for propitiation is hilasmos and means:
a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice.
properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434(hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, . By the sacrificeof Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434/hilasmós ("propitiation").
For them Christ propitiated God for, His Blood appeased Gods wrath.
However this doesnt apply to all men without exception, because Paul informs us that Gods wrath is actively and presently against some sinners Rom 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; The word revealed is in the present tense, its presently being revealed against men !
So obviously for them Gods Wrath has not been appeased, propitiated, hence they cant be part of that whole world of 1 Jn 2:2 ! Christ could not have died for them !
1 Jn 2:1-2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
This passage of scripture is most commonly used and abused by men, religionist, in their defense of unlimited atonement, which is a lie, or to say Christ died for all men without exception. Again this is a false claim by them, for the passage never states that Christ died for all men without exception. No its stating of believers to whom John was writing, that Christ was not limited to just being the propitiation for their sins, but for believers of the whole world, to include believers of different ethnicities and during different times, as to say the believers of all time !
Another thing that disqualifies this passage to be teaching that Christ died for all without exception, is that its talking about God being propitiated, His wrath that is. The greek word for propitiation is hilasmos and means:
a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice.
properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434(hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, . By the sacrificeof Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434/hilasmós ("propitiation").
For them Christ propitiated God for, His Blood appeased Gods wrath.
However this doesnt apply to all men without exception, because Paul informs us that Gods wrath is actively and presently against some sinners Rom 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; The word revealed is in the present tense, its presently being revealed against men !
So obviously for them Gods Wrath has not been appeased, propitiated, hence they cant be part of that whole world of 1 Jn 2:2 ! Christ could not have died for them !
The Apostle Peter wrote "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed" (1 Peter 2:24).
The Prophet Isaiah wrote "YHWH was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, and the good pleasure of YHWH will prosper in His hand" (Isaiah 53:10).
The Apostle Peter testifies that "on the tree" Christ successfully did "render Himself as a guilt offering".
Since Lord Jesus "bore our sins in his body on the tree", then clearly "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf".
The Apostle Paul wrote "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).
The Prophet Isaiah prophesied (Isaiah 53:10), so Isaiah referred to future events from Isaiah's perspective, and the Apostle Peter recorded that the Christ's Blood shed on the cross was fulfillment of the prophecy.
The Lamb of God suffering on the tree is the offering that takes away the sin for God's chosen people.
The Prophet Isaiah wrote that the guilt offering includes the sin offering; therefore, Christ, the Lamb of God, paid the ransom for His offspring, so he redeemed His offspring.
Your third and fourth paragraphs contain "the word of @CadyandZoe", not the Word of God. Isaiah 53:10 is part of a passage that includes "Like a lamb that is led to slaughter" (Isaiah 53:7), so the Christ's death is specifically mentioned by the Prophet Isaiah and confirmed by the Apostle Peter.
Christ bore the sins of His offspring in His body, so God is "not counting their trespasses against them" (2 Corinthians 5:21).
The Apostle Paul specifically explains that the Christ bought peace with God for His offspring in accordance with the Prophet Isaiah (1 Corinthians 6:20, 2 Corinthians 5:16-21, Isaiah 53:10).
When you wrote "he didn't bring a guilt offering or a sin offering", then you conveyed that Christ did not remove your sin; therefore, in effect, you preach that you are unclean.
Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27).
Notice that no one unclean gets in, and your uncleaness is your words and the Christ says "by your words you will be condemned" (Matthew 12:37).
Well you are taking issue with Scripture. Christ was our Substitute as the Second Adam in absolutely every respect: (1) in His perfect obedience to the Law, (2) in His perfect sacrifice on our behalf, and (3) in His perfect resurrection on our behalf. So here is the Scripture which tells us that the obedience and righteousness of Christ as a Man was for us:
Therefore as by the offence of one [ADAM] judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [CHRIST] the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's [ADAM'S] disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one [CHRIST] shall many be made righteous. (Rom 5:18,19)
This is not speaking about the perfection of Christ as God in eternity past, but the perfect righteousness and obedience of Jesus of Nazareth -- the Second Adam -- when He was on earth. Just as Adam's disobedience brought sin, death, and judgment upon all mankind, the perfect obedience of Christ opened the way for the salvation of all men. But only "many" will be made righteous because all will not obey the Gospel.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Find the passage where it says that Christ was our substitute.
Now, the passage you cite doesn't actually say that Christ obeyed the law "instead of us" does it? I don't think so. How does the obedience of Christ render the many righteous? We are talking about the means or method by which this exchange takes place. The Reformers argued that righteousness was "imputed" to us. That is, we somehow get credit for something we didn't do. Christ is the one who kept the law perfectly, but we (those who don't deserve the credit) get credit for it anyway. If this weren't a theological discussion, we would never let this stand. General agreement amongst decent people is that one should not get credit for someone else's accomplishments. We don't allow plagiarism for instance.
Paul isn't saying that God is giving us credit for what Jesus did. Just as it would be wrong to treat another person's work, art, writing, or scientific discovery as if it were my own, it is wrong and perhaps evil to treat Christ's obedience as if it were my own.
Rather, Paul is saying that the obedience of Jesus is the basis on which the Father will accept our appeal to God for mercy. The New Covenant is this: believe on Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Because of the obedience of the one man Jesus, it is possible for the many to be declared "right with me" through faith.
Read Isaiah 53 and repent. And weep.
Oh, so now you wish for a textbook answer rather than use spiritual discernment? Well you will not be getting any textbook answers. The passage is perfectly clear and now you are fighting it instead of acknowledging that you were wrong.
This is more about the recorded Word of God in John 15:16 and John 15:19 as mentioned in post #2283 which shows that you try to limit the audience to exclusively the apostles for the supper covered in John chapters 14 to 17.
Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.
Lord Jesus commands us His chosen believers to go and teach and proclaim
The Apostle Matthew recorded the command of Jesus Christ, the Word of God (John 1:14), for all His sheep (John 10:27-30) with His words of "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, immersing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:19-20) and Mark recorded "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to all creation" (Mark 16:15). This teaching, this proclamation includes the exclusive role of God choosing man not man choosing God (John 15:16, John 15:19) for these words are a statement of the sovereignty of God according to Jesus Christ, Lord and God (John 20:28).
One of the teachings, one of the commands of Jesus is for we sheep of His to be entirely dependent on Jesus alone for salvation! We are to go and teach and proclaim this Truth (John 14:6).
Since Jesus says "lo, I am with you always" (Matthew 28:20) in conjunction with His words of "go" (Matthew 28:19) and "proclaim" (Mark 16:15) and "immersing" (Matthew 28:19 - "baptizing") and "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth" (Matthew 28:18), then Jesus is the authoritatively sovereign One Who causes we believers to be at locations where He causes wickedly dead persons to live (John 3:3-8) and repent (Matthew 11:25) and believe in Him (John 6:29) thus causing persons to be saved from the wrath of God (John 10:27-29); furthermore, mere man causes NONE of it (John 15:16, Philippians 2:13).
Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.
IN YOUR HEART, YOU STEAL THE AUTHORITY IN YOUR CLAIM TO CAUSE YOUR OWN BEING SAVED FROM THE WRATH OF GOD BY YOUR CHOOSING JESUS BECAUSE WITHOUT CHOOSING JESUS THERE IS NO BEING SAVED FOR YOU FREE-WILLIANS (2 PETER 2:9-10).
Related post 1: more disciples present at supper
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