Eternal Security

Ferris Bueller · Nov 15, 2021

GodsGrace said:
I think the statements you make about BEING SHOWN TO BE RIGHTEOUS are a bit confusing, at least to me.
It's good to be a good witness once we've declared our Christianity,,,
but good works are beneficial to man,
but required by God...not for showing, but because God demands it.

James says this:

"21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?" James 2:21

Which is a reference to this:

12“Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him,” said the angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from me.b” Genesis 22:12

He had already been justified by his faith, apart from works, back in Genesis 15:6. But now his actions show that he was righteous before God ("now I know", says God speaking through the angel). James says a man is not only justified by faith apart from works. His works also justify him, but not in the sense of the word 'justified' the way Paul uses it. Paul is talking about being made righteous before God. James is talking about being shown to have that righteousness ("now I know", says the angel).

Does God need to see our righteous behavior so he can know we're really righteous? No, of course not. The account in Genesis 22 is for our benefit, so that we can know that a man who has been justified by faith apart from works will also be justified by what he does. And that no man who is not also justified by what he does will be saved. Not because works are a reward owed to the worker, but because the person made righteous by faith apart from works will have a corresponding life of obedience to declare that he is the righteous person he claims to be. The church needs to know this because so many Christians are convinced their faith does not have to do anything for it be considered saving faith. They are dead wrong. Dead faith can not save. Because dead faith is ultimately NO faith. And it's the responsibility of each of us to work so that we can know we have the faith that saves. The Bible calls that 'making your calling and election sure'.

amadeus · Nov 15, 2021

GodsGrace said:
Those that believe in unconditional security (OSAS) have the belief that once a person is saved, they lose their free will.

If we truly have free will in CHOOSING salvation...
then we also have free will to abandon our faith.
1 Timothy 4:1
2 Peter 2:20-22
etc.....

We do NOT lose our free will when we become saved again.
God will never force us to stay with Him,
He desires our true love...
or it is no love.

Amen!

marks · Nov 15, 2021

GodsGrace said:
Of course this one passage is not wrong...nothing in scripture is wrong.
But let's analise for a moment...

You say that I'm introducing a condition and that the condition can bring doubt to a believer.
Don't you think it's a good idea to represent Christianity the way Jesus and the Apostles did?

Yes. I do.

And I'd like to begin right here. With the words from the Apostle to the Gentiles, who was taught directly by Jesus, what to teach to us.

And right off the bat, I'd like to ask you, do you believe this passage is true as written:

Colossians 3:1
1Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

Because if you do, what are we talking about? And if you don't, then why are we discussing this?

GodsGrace said:
Verse 1 KEEP SEEKING the things above.
Verse 2 SET YOUR MIND ON THINGS ABOVE, NOT ON THINGS OF THE EARTH.
Verse 3 When Christ WHO IS OUR LIFE is revealed....

Grammatically these are instructions to the one raised with Christ, not conditions added to the one condition actually given.

If you've been raised with Christ, do this . . . because you've died, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

GodsGrace said:
Read it again:
God is keeping us BY HIS POWER THROUGH FAITH.
Faith is something WE must have.
Ephesians 2:8 For we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH....

Keeping is by His power, method is through faith. We don't keep ourselves. Our continuing faith is God's power keeping us. That's the way the verse reads.

Much love!

Ferris Bueller · Nov 15, 2021

marks said:
do you believe this passage is true as written:

Colossians 3:1
1Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

How does a person remain risen in Christ so as to fulfill that condition for appearing with him when he returns?

kcnalp · Nov 15, 2021

Luke 13:24 (NKJV)
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

We don't have to strive to be saved, but to stay saved.

marks · Nov 15, 2021

Ferris Bueller said:
How does a person remain risen in Christ so as to fulfill that condition for appearing with him when he returns?

That's not the question.

But by it you signify your disbelief.

Much love!

GodsGrace · Nov 15, 2021

Ferris Bueller said:
James says this:

"21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?" James 2:21

Which is a reference to this:

12“Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him,” said the angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from me.b” Genesis 22:12

He had already been justified by his faith, apart from works, back in Genesis 15:6. But now his actions show that he was righteous before God ("now I know", says God speaking through the angel). James says a man is not only justified by faith apart from works. His works also justify him, but not in the sense of the word 'justified' the way Paul uses it. Paul is talking about being made righteous before God. James is talking about being shown to have that righteousness ("now I know", says the angel).

Does God need to see our righteous behavior so he can know we're really righteous? No, of course not. The account in Genesis 22 is for our benefit, so that we can know that a man who has been justified by faith apart from works will also be justified by what he does. And that no man who is not also justified by what he does will be saved. Not because works are a reward owed to the worker, but because the person made righteous by faith apart from works will have a corresponding life of obedience to declare that he is the righteous person he claims to be. The church needs to know this because so many Christians are convinced their faith does not have to do anything for it be considered saving faith. They are dead wrong. Dead faith can not save. Because dead faith is ultimately NO faith. And it's the responsibility of each of us to work so that we can know we have the faith that saves. The Bible calls that 'making your calling and election sure'.

Hi FB
I'm not disagreeing with you.
Just trying to change your language....

James used the word JUSTIFIED BY WORKS because the words JUSTIFIED and SANCTIFIED had not been thought through when he wrote his epistle.

What you're talking about is sanctification. If you don't want to change your language, that's fine with me...I'm not going to go on about this for pages and pages -- I don't really do that.

The N.T. does speak to sanctification:

1 Thessalonians 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality;

1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

John 17:17
Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

There are more, but if you notice in 1 Cor 6:11 both words are used.
Now check out what James stated:

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

We know that we are justified ONLY BY FAITH....
We are made right with God only by our faith.... Ephesians 2:8

So we cannot ALSO be justified by works....as Paul said, if it is by works it cannot be by grace.

So, we are justified by our faith, and sanctified by our works and our continued following of our Lord Jesus.

If you can understand the difference between justification and sanctification you can perhaps understand better that James just used a word that does not fit into Christian theology....It just had not been distinguished yet (the difference).

GodsGrace · Nov 15, 2021

marks said:
Yes. I do.

And I'd like to begin right here. With the words from the Apostle to the Gentiles, who was taught directly by Jesus, what to teach to us.

And right off the bat, I'd like to ask you, do you believe this passage is true as written:

Colossians 3:1
1Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

Because if you do, what are we talking about? And if you don't, then why are we discussing this?

Grammatically these are instructions to the one raised with Christ, not conditions added to the one condition actually given.

If you've been raised with Christ, do this . . . because you've died, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Keeping is by His power, method is through faith. We don't keep ourselves. Our continuing faith is God's power keeping us. That's the way the verse reads.

Much love!

Well marks...
I see you don't care to move ahead.
I accept Colossians 3:1...it's YOU that seems not to.

I explained why in my previous post...do you read in context, or do you just read the parts you like?

What does verse 1 state about seeking God? Do you seek Him only once?
What instruction does verse 2 give us?
What is our life in verse 3?

I gave you the answers for the above in my previous post.
Maybe YOU don't agree with Colossiand 3:1 ??

And please note that when Jesus or an Apostle is speaking and INSTRUCTION is equal to A CONDITION given.

I also posted verse that show we can fall away and that our salvation has many IF's involved.
You didn't respond to those verses.

Paul said even HE could be disqualified !
1 Corinthians 9:27
but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Peter tell us we must supplement our faith..as if WE have to do it...God will not be doing everything for us. He went to the cross and sent us the Holy Spirit - I'd say that's enough...
2 Peter 1:5-10

And Jesus said that every branch that does not bear fruit will be taken away. I don't know any verse where Jesus states that we just believe in Him and all will be fine...
John 15:2

marks · Nov 15, 2021

GodsGrace said:
or do you just read the parts you like?

Just the parts I like. On the forum I mean.

Much love!

Ferris Bueller · Nov 15, 2021

GodsGrace said:
We know that we are justified ONLY BY FAITH....

Yes, insofar as what Paul means by that particular usage of the word (justified has more than one meaning/usage, easily verified in the dictionary).
But James says we are not justified by faith only, or alone (James 2:24).
He's not defying Paul's discourse. He's speaking of another meaning/usage of justification. And so a man is indeed justified by BOTH faith and works (James 2:24).

GodsGrace said:
We are made right with God only by our faith.... Ephesians 2:8

That is an absolute fact.
And so that's not the justification that James is talking about when he says a man is justified by what he does. He's referring to a different meaning/usage of the word justified.

GodsGrace said:
So we cannot ALSO be justified by works....as Paul said, if it is by works it cannot be by grace.

But we are in fact justified by works. Just not justified by works according to the meaning/usage that Paul is referring to in his discourse.
A man is justified by, both, faith and works according to the meaning of the word justified Paul is referring to, and, to another meaning of the word justified that James is referring to.

GodsGrace said:
If you can understand the difference between justification and sanctification you can perhaps understand better that James just used a word that does not fit into Christian theology....It just had not been distinguished yet (the difference).

I disagree that James' usage of the word justified is wrong.
You'll see that the word justified gets used the way James is using it (as opposed to how Paul is using it) in other passages. Notably, Luke 10:29. Obviously, the man is not trying to justify himself in the way Paul means to be justified. He's not trying to make himself just and righteous. Rather he's using the word in the way James uses the word. He is trying to show himself to be just and righteous.

Ferris Bueller · Nov 15, 2021

marks said:
That's not the question.

It's my question.
I already know how to become risen in him.
I want to know how to remain risen in him.
It's a valid and important question.

Ferris Bueller · Nov 15, 2021

marks said:
But by it you signify your disbelief.

I don't know what you're trying to say. Please explain.

GodsGrace · Nov 15, 2021

Ferris Bueller said:
Yes, insofar as what Paul means by that particular usage of the word (justified has more than one meaning/usage, easily verified in the dictionary).
But James says we are not justified by faith only, or alone (James 2:24).
He's not defying Paul's discourse. He's speaking of another meaning/usage of justification. And so a man is indeed justified by BOTH faith and works (James 2:24).

That is an absolute fact.
And so that's not the justification that James is talking about when he says a man is justified by what he does. He's referring to a different meaning/usage of the word justified.

But we are in fact justified by works. Just not justified by works according to the meaning/usage that Paul is referring to in his discourse.
A man is justified by, both, faith and works according to the meaning of the word justified Paul is referring to, and, to another meaning of the word justified that James is referring to.

I disagree that James' usage of the word justified is wrong.
You'll see that the word justified gets used the way James is using it (as opposed to how Paul is using it) in other passages. Notably, Luke 10:29. Obviously, the man is not trying to justify himself in the way Paul means to be justified (to make one just and righteous), but rather in the way James is uses the word (to show one to be just and righteous).

Hey FB
Luke 10:29's usage of the word justify means something totally different...

But I see you don't care to use the word sanctification....
As I said, I won't belabor the point.

I'll just link this in case you care to read it...
Sometimes I just wish we could all use the same language -

What Are Justification and Sanctification? by Guy Waters

Ferris Bueller · Nov 15, 2021

GodsGrace said:
But I see you don't care to use the word sanctification.

That's because being sanctified is not what James is describing.

Ferris Bueller · Nov 15, 2021

GodsGrace said:
Hey FB
Luke 10:29's usage of the word justify means something totally different.

Totally different than who's usage, Paul's or James'?

Ferris Bueller · Nov 15, 2021

GodsGrace said:
I'll just link this in case you care to read it...
Sometimes I just wish we could all use the same language -

What Are Justification and Sanctification? by Guy Waters

I'll read it tonight.

Ferris Bueller · Nov 15, 2021

GodsGrace said:
Sometimes I just wish we could all use the same language -

The word really is 'justified' in James 2:24.

I get it.
It's very simple when you realize 'justified' has more than one meaning and usage.

GodsGrace · Nov 15, 2021

marks said:
Just the parts I like. On the forum I mean.

Much love!

marks...
I learned early on that it's really important to read everything in context.
The verse ITSELF (Colossians 3:1-3) gives us conditions.

Colossians 3:1-3
1Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

The conditions are to KEEP SEEKING...
To SET OUR MIND on things above...
Christ must be OUR LIFE...

To not see these as conditions is to skip over some parts of the verses.

I'd also like to bring your attention to some writings of Paul just below the above...

Colossians 3:5-17
Paul gives instructions on how we are to behave, about how our new self is being renewed.
Then Paul goes on in giving instruction to wives, husbands and slaves..
and hear what Paul says in...

Colossians 3:25
For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and
that without partiality.

Doing right or doing wrong is our choice..and we will be judged by this.

marks · Nov 15, 2021

GodsGrace said:
I learned early on that it's really important to read everything in context.

Me too! And I've learned to not add, nor take away, but to read it all very seriously. And I've learned that if I understand it rightly, everything will be in harmony. If there is a single passage that would become untrue by my ideas, I've learned to let go of those ideas, and embrace new ones.

The sentence won't say different than what the words say.
The paragraph won't say different than what the sentences say.
The book won't say different from what the paragraphs say.

I suggest we pay attention, and take seriously, every last little bit.

Much love!

marks · Nov 15, 2021

GodsGrace said:
The conditions are to KEEP SEEKING...

Show me where that appears in the passage.

It's prescriptive, not descriptive.

Much love!

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