The Rapture

MR ROSENBERGER said:

I am not allowed to converse with you on the subject hear now.

Clowning around with the word of the Bible using worldly direction is what i would call a clown. no offence. but as i see it as a direct offence to God.
Devils know the Bible very well and use it to their ends, and they are happy to use any evil as a tool to push their own desires.
My mate up the road recons that salvation comes from the Jews twisting this meaning to say streight out blasphemy.

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I will freely admit that I can make mistakes when it comes to interpreting the Word of God, after all I am only human. And I have said all along for anyone who knows me, that I could be wrong. I am fallible, and my understanding of the Word is fallible. I certainly expect that when I get to Heaven, I will discover that I was wrong on quite a few things. IF I have knowingly mishandled the Word of God then I will stand in judgment before the the Lord. I teach bible studies, and I take that responsibility very seriously. I am constantly studying, and learning, and I only teach what I believe to be true. I always inform anybody that sits in my classes to not take my word on anything that I say, but to study for themselves.

With that being said, You will stand before God and give an account on how you have slandered me. I know that I could be wrong on many different things, but I only teach what I believe to be true. That you don't even accept the possibility that you are wrong, does not remove at least the possibility that you are wrong. And if, on the slightest chance that you are wrong and I am right, then when you slander me, if I am right, then you slander God's Word. And that, my friend, is a scary place to be.


But I leave God to judge between us, for he is the only one to know both our hearts.


I pray for peace in your life.


Your brother in Christ,


Joshua David

Joshua David said:

I will freely admit that I can make mistakes when it comes to interpreting the Word of God, after all I am only human. And I have said all along for anyone who knows me, that I could be wrong. I am fallible, and my understanding of the Word is fallible. I certainly expect that when I get to Heaven, I will discover that I was wrong on quite a few things. IF I have knowingly mishandled the Word of God then I will stand in judgment before the the Lord. I teach bible studies, and I take that responsibility very seriously. I am constantly studying, and learning, and I only teach what I believe to be true. I always inform anybody that sits in my classes to not take my word on anything that I say, but to study for themselves.

With that being said, You will stand before God and give an account on how you have slandered me. I know that I could be wrong on many different things, but I only teach what I believe to be true. That you don't even accept the possibility that you are wrong, does not remove at least the possibility that you are wrong. And if, on the slightest chance that you are wrong and I am right, then when you slander me, if I am right, then you slander God's Word. And that, my friend, is a scary place to be.


But I leave God to judge between us, for he is the only one to know both our hearts.


I pray for peace in your life.


Your brother in Christ,


Joshua David

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Just remember Joshua that when Jesus Christ talks ( and in the KJV we have that in red.) that he is the master and no apostle or anyone other can exceed the authority of any of his words, like Paul ect will say something that others pick up and runaway with to interpret them self as total authority today, but when the apostles are speaking to an ordinance ect both the speaker or wrighter knows the foundation is in Christ, and their ordinance may know it to. so it goes with out saying ?
And this is what i see a lot of people do, as they go on and on with this type of nonsense and picking pieces up out of context to use as so called truth but it slanders Christ.
So just remember that if Christ said something that is it end of story as it can not be disputed.

I am not into playing games with anyone.

We know from Paul that the church will not endure the wrath of God. 1 Thessalonians 5:9
By the time of the fifth seal, we know that the wrath of the Lamb is upon mankind. Revelation 6:16-17

If scripture is to be correct, the church must be gone before at least the fifth seal is opened.

Revelation 19:14 shows us something interesting also. The description of fine linen, white and clean, is used elsewhere in Revelation.
Revelation 7:13-14 gives us a similar description.
My conclusion is those who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, will return with the Lamb. This is a multitude no one could count from every nation, tribe, people, and tongue. Revelation 7:9
I believe these to be the church or bride of Christ.

BTW I did not read all the posts, so if I posted something already covered I am sorry.

justaname said:

We know from Paul that the church will not endure the wrath of God. 1 Thessalonians 5:9
By the time of the fifth seal, we know that the wrath of the Lamb is upon mankind. Revelation 6:16-17

If scripture is to be correct, the church must be gone before at least the fifth seal is opened.

Revelation 19:14 shows us something interesting also. The description of fine linen, white and clean, is used elsewhere in Revelation.
Revelation 7:13-14 gives us a similar description.
My conclusion is those who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, will return with the Lamb. This is a multitude no one could count from every nation, tribe, people, and tongue. Revelation 7:9
I believe these to be the church or bride of Christ.

BTW I did not read all the posts, so if I posted something already covered I am sorry.

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You might want to seriously study the last three Trumpet-Woe periods, and also especially note what our Lord Jesus said on the 6th Vial, which points to His coming and our gathering on the 7th Vial (Rev.8 thru 11; Rev.16).

The confusion many have about the order of the Revelation Seals, Trumpets, and Vials is with thinking they all occur in the exact order that John was given to write them down. The last three Trumpets do occur in order, because our Lord Jesus attached 3 Woe periods to them.

The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials parallel each other.

In Matth.24 and Mark 13 Christ was giving 7 specific signs for the end, with the last 7th sign being His coming and our gathering. Those 7 signs are spread out into 21 signs in His Book of Revelation. What that means, is He is giving us 21 events to describe those 7 signs per His Olivet Discourse in Matt.24 and Mark 13.

This is why at Rev.16:15 on the 6th Vial, He warns His Church that He comes "as a thief", and for us to keep our garments lest we walk naked and ashamed (spiritually speaking). So on the 6th Vial, His coming and our gathering has not yet occurred, not until the 7th Vial.

Christ's coming and our gathering to Him is on the 6-7th Seal; 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial.

veteran said:

You might want to seriously study the last three Trumpet-Woe periods, and also especially note what our Lord Jesus said on the 6th Vial, which points to His coming and our gathering on the 7th Vial (Rev.8 thru 11; Rev.16).

The confusion many have about the order of the Revelation Seals, Trumpets, and Vials is with thinking they all occur in the exact order that John was given to write them down. The last three Trumpets do occur in order, because our Lord Jesus attached 3 Woe periods to them.

The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials parallel each other.

In Matth.24 and Mark 13 Christ was giving 7 specific signs for the end, with the last 7th sign being His coming and our gathering. Those 7 signs are spread out into 21 signs in His Book of Revelation. What that means, is He is giving us 21 events to describe those 7 signs per His Olivet Discourse in Matt.24 and Mark 13.

This is why at Rev.16:15 on the 6th Vial, He warns His Church that He comes "as a thief", and for us to keep our garments lest we walk naked and ashamed (spiritually speaking). So on the 6th Vial, His coming and our gathering has not yet occurred, not until the 7th Vial.

Christ's coming and our gathering to Him is on the 6-7th Seal; 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial.

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You are incorrect on your assumption, the order is as it is written as foretold by the use of ordinal numbers as opposed to cardinal numbers, i:e first, second, third. Also to further my point John uses the phrases "and I saw" and "after these things". A plain face reading of the text presents them chronological-sequential, if you wish to stack or shuffle the deck to support your view, go right ahead.

Let me also present the fifth trumpet for evidence.
Revelation 9:5
And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.
If what you say is true, then the fifth seal, the fifth trumpet, and the fifth bowl all have to last five months.

Now if the fifth seal, being broken at the same time as the fifth trumpet, what would constitute this response from those under the alter?
Revelation 6:10
"How long, O Lord, holy and true, will you refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

Truly the way it is written is the seventh seal is the seven trumpets, the seventh trumpet is the seven bowls, all chronological-sequential.

Also a careful reading of the text, as it is written, will pose a major problem if the church is raptured at the seventh bowl.
Nobody is present at His return. :blink:

With my understanding, I see people being converted during the great tribulation, but not raptured. These people are the ones who endure to the end and are blessed. Christ comes with His bride, to receive this salty bunch, as foretold in Daniel 12:12.

justaname said:

You are incorrect on your assumption, the order is as it is written as foretold by the use of ordinal numbers as opposed to cardinal numbers, i:e first, second, third. Also to further my point John uses the phrases "and I saw" and "after these things". A plain face reading of the text presents them chronological-sequential, if you wish to stack or shuffle the deck to support your view, go right ahead.

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What you're saying is easy to disprove...

Rev 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
(KJV)

There's the 6th Seal only, and it's about the events of Christ's return and the pouring out of God's wrath!


Here's the 7th Trumpet, and Christ's return with His literal reign over all nations is shown, even with the judgments and rewards being handed out...

Rev 11:15-18
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give Thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(KJV)



Same with the sequence of events with the Vials...

Rev 16:12-17
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
(KJV)


Those who get away from that simple Revelation our Lord Jesus gave show how they are on 'other' doctrines outside His Word, and in your case, it appears to be the false pre-trib rapture doctrine of men. Those don't like to be shown how those events of Christ's coming on "the day of the Lord" occur with that 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial. It's because they think to be already raptured out prior, but they won't be.

veteran said:

What you're saying is easy to disprove...

Rev 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
(KJV)

There's the 6th Seal only, and it's about the events of Christ's return and the pouring out of God's wrath!


Here's the 7th Trumpet, and Christ's return with His literal reign over all nations is shown, even with the judgments and rewards being handed out...

Rev 11:15-18
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give Thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(KJV)



Same with the sequence of events with the Vials...

Rev 16:12-17
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
(KJV)


Those who get away from that simple Revelation our Lord Jesus gave show how they are on 'other' doctrines outside His Word, and in your case, it appears to be the false pre-trib rapture doctrine of men. Those don't like to be shown how those events of Christ's coming on "the day of the Lord" occur with that 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial. It's because they think to be already raptured out prior, but they won't be.

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Your doctrine from imagination disproves nothing. Again from the sixth seal the wrath of God is arrived.
Revelation 6:16-17 Luke 23:30 Hosea 10:8

Why the use of ordinal numbers?
Why did John say "and then I saw?"
Why did John say "after these things?"



Again you can read into what is not written, and make up whatever you want. You can shuffle or stack the order if you like in order to support your doctrine of men. For myself I stick to the text, as it is written.

Lets let the word of God be the deciding factor.
Revelation 8:1-2
When He opened the seventh seal, there was a silence in heaven for about a half an hour. And I saw seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

Clearly after opening the seventh seal, about a half of an hour goes by, and seven angels appear and they are given seven trumpets. They do not have trumpets at the first seal through unto the sixth seal. The seals do not parallel the trumpets.

Revelation 8:7
The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

That sure sounds like the wrath of God to me, the church must be gone before this point.

Revelation 16:1
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth."

So according to you, "The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials parallel each other." So in accordance with your interpretation the church must endure the wrath of God, and Paul is wrong. 1 Thessalonians 5:9

justaname said:

Your doctrine from imagination disproves nothing. Again from the sixth seal the wrath of God is arrived.
Revelation 6:16-17 Luke 23:30 Hosea 10:8

Why the use of ordinal numbers?
Why did John say "and then I saw?"
Why did John say "after these things?"



Again you can read into what is not written, and make up whatever you want. You can shuffle or stack the order if you like in order to support your doctrine of men. For myself I stick to the text, as it is written.

Lets let the word of God be the deciding factor.
Revelation 8:1-2
When He opened the seventh seal, there was a silence in heaven for about a half an hour. And I saw seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

Clearly after opening the seventh seal, about a half of an hour goes by, and seven angels appear and they are given seven trumpets. They do not have trumpets at the first seal through unto the sixth seal. The seals do not parallel the trumpets.

Revelation 8:7
The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

That sure sounds like the wrath of God to me, the church must be gone before this point.

Revelation 16:1
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth."

So according to you, "The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials parallel each other." So in accordance with your interpretation the church must endure the wrath of God, and Paul is wrong. 1 Thessalonians 5:9

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Those you've listened to instead of the simple Scripture force you to omit the Scripture I covered as written.

Per Paul in 1 Thess.5 and Peter in 2 Pet.3:10, the time of Christ's return is on the "day of the Lord". The Old Testament prophets wrote much about that day as being the time when God's wrath is poured out upon the wicked, and events on this earth occur to usher in Christ's future thousand years reign. In the New Testament, Paul and Peter link those "day of the Lord" events with our Lord Jesus' second coming and the actual time... when He gathers us to Him. Notice I said the time of our 'gathering' to Christ, and not a time of our returning to earth with Christ.


1Thes 5:1-2
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(KJV)

Paul had just covered events about Christ's coming and our gathering in the previous 1 Thess.4 chapter, and he then continues the subject in the next chapter 5. He linked the time of Christ's returning on the day of the Lord with that "as a thief in the night" metaphor.

Peter linked those same events in 2 Pet.3.


2 Pet 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(KJV)


Our Lord Jesus linked the same events, just in a little different way than Paul and Peter did...

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(KJV)

Christ told those at Sardis IF they did not watch, He would come on them... "as a thief". Our Lord Jesus linked the "as a thief" metaphor with the time of His return.



Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
(KJV)

On the 6th Vial, Christ is STILL... giving that warning of His coming "as a thief" to His Church on earth that has yet to go anywhere, the gathering not yet having occurred. Why?

The wrath of the 6 Vials is tribulation era timing, PRIOR to Christ's coming and our gathering. Those vials are not upon God's people on earth that remain faithful, just as God had protected Israel in Egypt when the death angel passed over the houses of Israel when God through Moses and Aaron brought plauges upon Egypt. God's people did not have to leave the earth in order for God to protect them from those things. And that's what the Rev.16:15 verse is revealing also about Christ's coming and our gathering still yet to occur at that point on 6th Vial.

I believe that The Lord will take us out of here when his wrath hits the earth, If not, I will speak the truth until I leave this earth. If the Government kills me for speaking the truth, so be it, I will leave this earth with the Lord

Warrior said:

I believe that The Lord will take us out of here when his wrath hits the earth, If not, I will speak the truth until I leave this earth. If the Government kills me for speaking the truth, so be it, I will leave this earth with the Lord

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Might want to prepare for the tribulation then, because God's Word does not teach anywhere that we are going to be removed prior to the "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus taught.

That seeking to 'fly away' idea is one of the major tests upon believers on Jesus Christ today. Just as God separated the chaff from the wheat among His people in Old Testament times because of the deceived allowing themselves to be taken in by false prophets, He's going to do that again in the end of this world.

The poll seems to be set up as a non sequiter. i.e. It is a fact that the bible is the Word of God. But it doesn't follow from that that the Rapture is a fact as well. The rapture may be a fact of God's Word after it has been conclusively shown to be a true interpretation of Scripture.