Jesus in his earthy ministry didn't know that Gentiles would become heirs.

Nancy · Nov 16, 2021

TEXBOW said:
Only God knew the mystery. It's obvious that Jesus knew after he ascended because he told Paul. Jesus said himself that he came for the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 15:24. Jesus told the Apostles to not go to the Gentiles. I do not think these things would have been said if Jesus knew of the mystery Paul clearly teaches us in Ephesians 3.

Is God sovereign over the trinity or is this an example of God being sovereign over Jesus in the flesh? Both?

Perhaps the reason Jesus did not know certain things is because God the Father had not SPOKEN it yet? Jesus only does what the Father say's or does, the whole universe was created AFTER "God said..." Jesus is the Word after all

And nothing that was made was made without Christ... JMHO.

TEXBOW · Nov 16, 2021

Hidden In Him said:
I personally don't dispute that the Son didn't know the timing of His return in Mark 13:32, nor does His Divinity rest on Him knowing absolutely everything the Father knew at the time. I'm simply telling you, the text has Him commending the woman after she corrected him, and scripture says multiple times concerning the Pharisees, "But He knew their thoughts." He knew the woman at the well's life before she even started speaking with Him. How is it not reasonable that He already knew what was in this woman's head as well?

As for Him not knowing the Gentiles would be saved, have you considered this text? He was talking to a Roman centurion here, i.e. a Gentile.

8 The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that same hour.

By this, Jesus was communicating to those present that many Gentiles would be entering the kingdom who had great faith just like this centurion did, but the sons of the kingdom (the Jews) who did not have faith would be cast out.

I have considered both situations in your post, the centurion and the woman. What I question is the method of their salvation at this time. Some Gentiles were Proselytes and this was a way for Gentiles to worship God in the law. I do not think anyone has ever been saved except by faith. There is (I will look it up later) I think a time when Jesus told the Apostles to go only to the Jews but later telling them to take the Gospel to the world. Could there have been a transition period with the Father reveling things to the Son over time in his earthly ministry?

TEXBOW · Nov 16, 2021

Nancy said:
Perhaps the reason Jesus did not know certain things is because God the Father had not SPOKEN it yet? Jesus only does what the Father say's or does, the whole universe was created AFTER "God said..." Jesus is the Word after all And nothing that was made was made without Christ... JMHO.

This is my point. God the Father knew things Jesus the Son didn't know at a certain period during Jesus earthly ministry. I think it's difficult to think otherwise. The question is what things did the Father not tell him or did he tell him late in his earthly ministry? Was the Father sovereign over the Son?

Hidden In Him · Nov 16, 2021

TEXBOW said:
I have considered both situations in your post, the centurion and the woman. What I question is the method of their salvation at this time. Some Gentiles were Proselytes and this was a way for Gentiles to worship God in the law. I do not think anyone has ever been saved except by faith. There is (I will look it up later) I think a time when Jesus told the Apostles to go only to the Jews but later telling them to take the Gospel to the world. Could there have been a transition period with the Father reveling things to the Son over time in his earthly ministry?

Mmm.. there could, but I think my previous text proves that He knew the Gentiles would have the gospel preached to them. The number of Gentiles converting to Judaism was relatively few back then, yet Jesus prophesied to them that "Many will come from the East and West and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven."

There is also the parable of the Mustard Seed, and by the "seed" Jesus meant Himself, as He said it would be sown in the earth as the "smallest of seeds" (only one "Man"), yet grow up into the tallest of trees. The real growth of the church happened when the Gentile world started coming in, and so it is to this day that the majority of the church are Gentiles rather than Jews. Jesus apparently knew this - that His body would grow to great size in the earth - so this would seem to also necessitate that He knew the Gentiles would make up a large part of it.

Hidden In Him · Nov 16, 2021

TEXBOW said:
I have considered both situations in your post, the centurion and the woman. What I question is the method of their salvation at this time. Some Gentiles were Proselytes and this was a way for Gentiles to worship God in the law. I do not think anyone has ever been saved except by faith. There is (I will look it up later) I think a time when Jesus told the Apostles to go only to the Jews but later telling them to take the Gospel to the world. Could there have been a transition period with the Father reveling things to the Son over time in his earthly ministry?

While I'm still on this, let me give you two other passages. In John 10, Jesus spoke to the Pharisees, telling them the following:

14 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and One Shepherd." (John 10:14-16)

"Not of this fold" was probably confusing to the Pharisees - the Israelite "fold" He was speaking to and about - but we now understand He was referring to the Gentiles. There is also a prophecy in Isaiah where God declared to the Son as follows:

Indeed He says, ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, that You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ” (Isaiah 49:6)

Since Paul taught that Jesus was the one leading Israel, it would be very hard to argue He was not aware of this prophecy and understood it to be a reference to Himself. It was a Messianic prophecy after all.

Nancy · Nov 16, 2021

TEXBOW said:
This is my point. God the Father knew things Jesus the Son didn't know at a certain period during Jesus earthly ministry. I think it's difficult to think otherwise. The question is what things did the Father not tell him or did he tell him late in his earthly ministry? Was the Father sovereign over the Son?

Dunno! Jesus did not at that time even know the "day or the hour" of His return...I really believe it is because God the Father did not speak it yet. I have nothing to back that up, sorry. Except that Jesus left His glory with The Father in Heaven when He came down here.

Phillipians 2: 6-8
6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"

8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

He left the glory of heaven, where He was always with The Father. Far as The Father being sovereign over Jesus, I'd say yes but "The Christ"? not so sure...Jesus took on human form..."
Probably doesn't answer your question brother, sry!

farouk · Nov 16, 2021

Nancy said:
Dunno! Jesus did not at that time even know the "day or the hour" of His return...I really believe it is because God the Father did not speak it yet. I have nothing to back that up, sorry. Except that Jesus left His glory with The Father in Heaven when He came down here.

Phillipians 2: 6-8
6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"

8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

He left the glory of heaven, where He was always with The Father. Far as The Father being sovereign over Jesus, I'd say yes but "The Christ"? not so sure...Jesus took on human form..."
Probably doesn't answer your question brother, sry!

@Nancy My mind went to Philippians 2 also; it seemed to me that it being not robbery to be equal with God confirms omniscience in principle; but as the subject servant He also chose willingly to set aside for a whole some of the exercise of the attributes of deity to which He was entitled.

TEXBOW · Nov 16, 2021

Hidden In Him said:
While I'm still on this, let me give you two other passages. In John 10, Jesus spoke to the Pharisees, telling them the following:

14 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and One Shepherd." (John 10:14-16)

"Not of this fold" was probably confusing to the Pharisees - the Israelite "fold" He was speaking to and about - but we now understand He was referring to the Gentiles. There is also a prophecy in Isaiah where God declared to the Son as follows:

Indeed He says, ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, that You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ” (Isaiah 49:6)

Since Paul taught that Jesus was the one leading Israel, it would be very hard to argue He was not aware of this prophecy and understood it to be a reference to Himself. It was a Messianic prophecy after all.

In Ephesians 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

We see that in verse 5 it was not made known unto the sons of men. Paul repeats in verse 9 that which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God who created all things by Jesus Christ. If the Holy Spirit says that it has been hid then I think we must accept that it was hid. My opinion is that Jesus must have known before the Father sent him to his earthly ministry but maybe not at least at first while in the flesh. It feels like to me that Jesus transitioned as the Son. Was he able to heal or perform miracles as a child, I don't think so. He told Mary at the wedding he was not ready yet. Seems there was some doubt or question of his time was ready for miracles at the wedding. I do not know or understand this completely. If Jesus set aside his deity while walking on earth knowledge could be a part of that deity. Was Jesus praying to the Father for instructions in his earthly ministry?

Hidden In Him · Nov 16, 2021

TEXBOW said:
In Ephesians 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

It's a good passage to quote, but you have to remember that according to Paul's teaching it was Jesus who manifested Himself to the Israelites as God in the wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:1-5), so when it says, "in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men," it means that Christ chose not to make known to the sons of men at that time the mystery that He eventually made known to the church. But that He obviously knew it back then is apparent, or He would not have had the option to make it known to the sons of men back then anyway, and Paul's argument would thus be meaningless.

TEXBOW said:
If Jesus set aside his deity while walking on earth knowledge could be a part of that deity. Was Jesus praying to the Father for instructions in his earthly ministry?

I think right here may be your problem. Christ actually never set aside His Divinity. He only emptied Himself of His Divine privileges to become a man. Scripture says:

7 He made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. (Philippians 2:7-8)

This doesn't mean, however, that He set aside His Divinity.

TEXBOW · Nov 16, 2021

Hidden In Him said:
It's a good passage to quote, but you have to remember that according to Paul's teaching it was Jesus who manifested Himself to the Israelites as God in the wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:1-5), so when it says, "in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men," it means that Christ chose not to make known to the sons of men at that time the mystery that He eventually made known to the church. But that He obviously knew it back then is apparent, or He would not have had the option to make it known to the sons of men back then anyway, and Paul's argument would thus be meaningless.

I think right here may be your problem. Christ actually never set aside His Divinity. He only emptied Himself of His Divine privileges to become a man. Scripture says:

7 He made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. (Philippians 2:7-8)

This doesn't mean, however, that He set aside His Divinity.

Wrong choice of words on my part. In is decision to empty himself of his divine privilege was knowledge also emptied? We know he said only the Father knew certain things. Mark 13:32 is hard to get around.
Yes he certainly knew all things in his divine nature.

teamventure · Nov 16, 2021

So to be clear, Jesus did not set aside his divinity.

Shalom!

Hidden In Him · Nov 16, 2021

TEXBOW said:
Wrong choice of words on my part. In His decision to empty himself of his divine privilege was knowledge also emptied?

Now that one I have no idea about, Lol. I'd be tempted to actually say yes. I don't know how an infant's brain could register all the knowledge of God.

Think I'll leave that one on the shelf for others to speculate about.

Waiting on him · Nov 16, 2021

TEXBOW said:
Only God knew the mystery. It's obvious that Jesus knew after he ascended because he told Paul. Jesus said himself that he came for the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 15:24. Jesus told the Apostles to not go to the Gentiles. I do not think these things would have been said if Jesus knew of the mystery Paul clearly teaches us in Ephesians 3.

Is God sovereign over the trinity or is this an example of God being sovereign over Jesus in the flesh? Both?

Jesus new the Old Testament inside and out, kinda silly to assume He wouldn’t know that the Gentiles would be called to salvation. read Isaiah if you get a chance.

Waiting on him · Nov 16, 2021

Desire Of All Nations said:
Your theology is way off. Considering Jesus was the God that told Abraham that the whole world would be blessed through him and the same God that inspired the prophets to write of the time where the whole world would be truly converted Christians, i'd say Jesus wasn't left in the dark about that mystery. Jesus simply couldn't go into depth about spiritual matters with the disciples before His ascension because it would've went right over their heads(1 Cor. 2:11). It would've been like trying to teach advanced calculus to a dog.

You shouldn’t change scripture. He didn’t say all the world.

Waiting on him · Nov 16, 2021

Isaiah 49:6 KJV
[6] And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Waiting on him · Nov 16, 2021

Isaiah 11:10 KJV
[10] And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Waiting on him · Nov 16, 2021

Isaiah 60:3,5 KJV
[3] And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. [5] Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

Enoch111 · Nov 16, 2021

Hidden In Him said:
I don't know how an infant's brain could register all the knowledge of God.

If that infant was God, His knowledge would be astounding. And when Jesus was twelve, He proved it. When the Bible says "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" it does not mean that He emptied Himself at all. He only divested Himself of the glory that He had with the Father, and then made Himself totally subject to the will of the Father. Isaiah saw that glory (brightness), but while on earth His glory was in the things He did and said.

However throughout the Gospels we see Jesus of Nazareth with full knowledge of all things in advance and also what was in the hearts and souls of men. He was also always filled with the Holy Spirit. Before His resurrection He said that only the Father knew the day and hour of His coming. But after the resurrection, He received all power and authority from the Father. So today it is Jesus who knows precisely when He will return.

Waiting on him · Nov 16, 2021

TEXBOW said:
In Ephesians 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

We see that in verse 5 it was not made known unto the sons of men. Paul repeats in verse 9 that which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God who created all things by Jesus Christ. If the Holy Spirit says that it has been hid then I think we must accept that it was hid. My opinion is that Jesus must have known before the Father sent him to his earthly ministry but maybe not at least at first while in the flesh. It feels like to me that Jesus transitioned as the Son. Was he able to heal or perform miracles as a child, I don't think so. He told Mary at the wedding he was not ready yet. Seems there was some doubt or question of his time was ready for miracles at the wedding. I do not know or understand this completely. If Jesus set aside his deity while walking on earth knowledge could be a part of that deity. Was Jesus praying to the Father for instructions in his earthly ministry?

I’m certain Paul had read about the Gentiles coming to salvation all his life in Isaiah, the problem though without the Holy Spirit he wasn’t able to discern. Christ on the other hand wasn’t without the Holy Spirit. He was actually the first man to have received the breath of life since the fall of Adam.

farouk · Nov 16, 2021

Waiting on him said:
Isaiah 60:3,5 KJV
[3] And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. [5] Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

@Waiting on him Great verses there! the Lord by His Spirit caused those verses to be penned, and it would be hard to claim that the Lord Jesus did not know them.

Jesus in his earthy ministry didn't know that Gentiles would become heirs.

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