The Apostles as eyewitnesses of His resurrection +500 would beg to differ, even testifying unto death for their eyewitness testimony (40 days of post resurrection appearances).
Why Do You Believe....
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What are you trying to accomplish with this question? Don't you think there is an intelligent being who created this thing called math?
The bible is a historical account of the history of the earth. It's been gone over in the pages that has went by in this thread.
Adam and Eve were the first human beings to exist. Adam the first man, and Eve the first woman. Lost people are more likely to believe in evolution instead, how the Big Bang created everything and all that good stuff, because that is what they were programmed to believe.
We're living in 2,000 + years of existence, the AD period. 2,000 years of what? Since the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. But many people dismiss this as a myth, legend, or whatever word you want to call it. Some people will say that all of this stuff is just used to control people. You might be asking, what does all of this matter.
When people die, they're going to be going to one of two places; Heaven or Hell. Lost people who rejected Christ to the very end are going to end up in Hell. Anyone who denies the creator, the creator will deny them. Those who accepted Jesus will receive the gift of salvation, though I will say that even then it is going to be a challenge, because backsliders or the lukewarm, or those who had something wrong go with them can end up like the lost too. Jesus Christ has the power to destroy the body and soul, it is the creator, Jesus, you should fear. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. For those who want to do right with the creator, Heaven will be their reward. God, Christ Jesus, created everything. We're not here in this world for no reason.
It is credible to believe figures the those listed above lived. The difference between them and Jesus is that one is better categorized as mythical than historical due to the nature of what's attributed to him. Was there likely a person in early 1st century Palestine known to the region as Yeshua, yes. Was he a literal God-man and worker of the miraculous, highly unlikely. And if this figure was not the actual son of God, is it fair to say then that the Jesus of the Biblical narrative didn't actually exist?
SO says the writer, Luke. Again, there's no way to corroborate his account to determine its accuracy.
Read the post it is a response to. That post asserts that "someone has to be right" and my response illustrates that that is if fact not the case always as all answers can be incorrect as they are in my example.
Stop it friend. I am well versed in your version of the Christian doctrine so no need to explain what it is. I just understand that the evidence in reality stands against that narrative being true. The historical record and fossil record testify against a 6000 year old planet. The Bible itself in MANY passages testifies against people going anywhere but to Sheol, (the grave), when they stop living and die. The afterlife concept is foreign to most of scripture as what scripture consistently teaches is a resurrections hope. Study your Bible, especially the OT to gain context, and you'll see this too.
Interesting!
You would deny Jesus the same historicity because you are incredulous over what is attributed to Him. I guess we have some pretty different standards of what qualifies as "historical".
Your rate the authenticity of the record by it's contents, and I rate the authenticity of the contents by the record. That is to say, I don't throw out something that is attested to by many witnesses simply because their testimony seems unusual.
It's like sitting in court, saying, NO, that eye witness is not to believed, not that one, not the other one, not any of the rest, after all, we all know those things can't happen!
Much love!
3 books I recommend to you, by Immanuel Velikosvky, a non-Christian Russian scientist.
Ages In Chaos - the historical record of earth's short and cataclysmic past
Earth in Upheaval - The geological record of the same
Worlds in Collision - and the atronomical record.
These may give you a different point of view.
Darwin himself said that if the simple cell turned out to be more complex then they understood it to be, this would mean he was wrong about his ideas of origin. I forget his exact words.
We now know the "simple cell" is like a city full of factories. There's nothing simple about it at all, and "irreducible complexity" is all over the place.
Much love!
Unusual is a HUGE understatement. Try IMPOSSIBLE as it better describes the second hand narratives written a generation after said events would have occurred. Again, eyewitness testimony is lacking AND please also note that eyewitness testimony is not exactly the gold standard for evidence.
problems with eyewitness testimony - Google Search
You seem to be connecting me to Darwin as if I am some sort of religious follower of his words. I'd only accept a teaching from Darwin, or anyone else for that matter, as truth IF what they say is supported by evidence and reality. Darwin is NOT my pastor.
I will perhaps delve into the content if I can access the writings easily and without cost. As far as the 6000 year timeline goes, there are civilizations that are millennia older than that.
Göbekli Tepe
The Seeds of Civilization | History | Smithsonian Magazine
OK, only, you cite what you call the "fossil record" as if it supported the common Darwinian view. We can leave him out of this. What is it about the fossils that says to you an old earth? Is it that there are creatures you don't see today? Is is that you think fossilization takes that long?
Whether these are free or not, I don't know. You won't like the contents, I don't think.
And I think we need to talk first about dating methods and their reliability before accepting their conclusions. Just saying something is 12,000 years old doesn't make it so, and the writer wasn't there. So they sift clues. Sifted through cognitive bias. OK. There's a lot of that on boths sides, I know.
Those books are kind of dry. But they are methodical.
Joshua's long day is recorded around the world in a long sunset, a long night, you get the idea. The flood of Noah, in Chinese literature, literally in histories all over the world. Do you know people heard God's voice from Sinai for 1000's of miles? They didn't know what they were hearing, but they knew there were things happening to the earth, and they heard the trumpeting sound. That's in the secular histories of that time, as cataloged by a secular scientist.
Do you know there are dozens of "accepted dating methodologies", and that their results are often vastly different from each other? And that the test that will end up being cited is the one that produces the age closest to what is expected?
Seriously! They "calibrate" these tests by testing artifacts of "known age", except, those "known ages" are in the hundreds of thousands, and millions of years, and, there is no provenance! There are no prehistoric artifacts of "known age". That's a contradiction of terms. So they've got these dozens of tests, and the pick the one that gives the result they think it should. And publish that as science.
That science claims the rock layers at the bottom of the Grand Canyon are millions of years older than those at the top. If you bring that up on the tour, they'll just try to shut you up until they can remove you.
It's like measuring the distance of stars by paralax. That's what they claim to do. But do the math on the angles required to be measured, and then try to find the intrument that is able to make an accurate geo-stabilized measurement of such a small degree over so many billions of miles, it's mind boggling! Anyway, scientists I read claim this isn't really possible.
And red-shift can have a variety of causes, and has been measured with different results in stars that are gravitationally bound. So how certain should we be that this shows us their velocity? Again, this is selecting from various possible answers the one you like.
And so now "science", so called, would have us believe that two stars that are holding hands as it were are moving at vastly different speeds.
Personally, I find the Bible much more credible than our modern so-called science.
Much love!
. . . your incredulty, and your definitions of what can and cannot happen.
I think this would be a tautology. I don't believe it because it's not to be believed.
Oh, and some of the writers claimed to be eye witnesses, not second hand accounts a generation later.
Simon Greenleaf is someone to become aquainted with.
From his wiki page . . .
Greenleaf's well-known work, a Treatise on the Law of Evidence, is considered a classic of American jurisprudence.
He is distinguished as one who applied the canons of the ancient document rule to establish the authenticity of the gospel accounts, as well as cross-examination principles in assessing the testimony of those who bore witness to the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ.
It's just more food for thought in case you really are searching, and not just trying to have one over on a bunch of Christians.
Much love!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Great question. Hebrews 4:12 says the Word of God is alive. I found this to be true.
I challenge you to read the Bible every morning for 30 days, opening by a prayer to God in Jesus' name that he open your eyes to what he wants you to see. Doing this changed my life. And I bet, it'd change your life also.
Actually it was Paul...
that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve. Then he appeared to over five hundred brothers and sisters at one time; most of them are still alive, but some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one born at the wrong time, he also appeared to me. (1Co 15:4-8)
Even the enemies of the Gospel story could easily have produced a dead body to put a quick end to the 'Resurrection Fable' at that time.
lenetra
New Member
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
TRUTH OT,
Faith is based not only on God's word, but physical facts as well. ( Romans 1) Here's more.
Prophecy is one reason why the Israelites believed. When God sent a prophet to them, and he predicted a future event, (and it could have been days, months or years away), and it came true with hair splitting accuracy, they believed.
Abraham was justified by his faith. Of course God personally spoke to the prophets. But when Sarah and Abraham were in their 90's, God promised him a child. Not only a child but that a natiin would be generated throufh his seed. Sarah laughed at the thoufht if her getting pregnant, she didn't believe and Abraham doubted as well. He misinterpreted God and thought well maybe he should mate with his younger servant, Hagar. Hagar got pregnant and they thought this was what God ment. Nope. Sarah, in her 90's got pregnant.
Then years later, when his son Isaac got older, God instructed him to sacrifice him. He was really distraught and confused. "Why does he want me to do that, he must have pondered"? He loved his son and God promised him that his seed would generate a great nation. He obeyed and proceeded. Just as he was about to kill his son, God stopped him (well an angel did) and provided a lamb for the sacrifice instead that it just so happened to be close by. God was just testing Abraham's faith and trust and Abraham proved obedient and faithful.
Abraham's faith was based on God's word, experiences and provisions which were facts.
I look back and see how God orchestrated my life events, how He has loved and guided me - that He was always there. I saw how He led me to that divine appointment. There was no chance involved, but a plan.
Chance has no power, no mind or will to accomplish anything, to order events - CHANCE IS NOTHING BUT A EMPTY NOTION OF THE EXISTENCE OF LIFE AND ORDER IN THE UNIVERSE WERE SO CAUSED BY IT.
Order points to a plan.
Life points to a Life GIVER. Design points to a Designer.
He is the Author of my faith. It is not something we contrive in ourselves.
A famous scripture proves that there is a higher power that orders things. "What you sow is what you reap." How does the universe take account for the things that each and everyone does, (good or bad) weigh them, decide how and when to return them for the purpose of a blessing or punishment and a lesson learned? The universe and/nature does not have a mind to order such things.
My mom used to tell us that everything happens for the best! How does that work? What are the physics behind that? There arent any mathematical formulas for that. There is God though.
"God causes all things to work for good for those who love the Lord, for those who are called to His purpose." Rom. 8:28
So, how has your life been in regards to things happening for the best?
When things happen, we don't always think they are good for us. Later after we've learned a good lesson and gathered wisdom, we realize it was for the best.
So have you had a lot of these experiences where you sowed what you reaped?
If life has been just a long series of tragedies, failures, pain and suffering, you might not be one who is called to His purpose. Reprobates are already judged - He knows where they are going. Their lives usually do not evidence the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, hope, faith, goodness, kindness, gentleness, self - control.
No, their lives usually are wicked. Romans 1 gives a long list of descriptions.
The good news is you are likely on His list to be saved.
Without me knowing you, I sense you have answered those above questions with a yes. You wanted evidence /facts.
Unction is evidence. That inner voice that tells you,
"You ought to go this way or do or don't do something."
We naturally think that our thoughts are either self -generated ir received from an outer source: books, media, other people, etc. We have lots stored up. But sometimes a warning comes out of nowhere. If it is self generated, why do we argue with it, why don't we agree with ourselves? No we analyse, wrestle with it, think it through and decide to do something else - and what happens? We screw up. We should have gone with the first impression/unction. God speaks to us this way... how else would He guide us?
One last thing. There is a book written by a former atheist, "The Case For Faith", by Lee Strobel. He was an award winning investigate journalist who sought out to disprove faith in God. Through his research, he became a believer. This guy was a lawyer as well. Then he also wrote, "The Case For Christ" too.
Faith is based not only on God's word, but physical facts as well. ( Romans 1) Here's more.
Prophecy is one reason why the Israelites believed. When God sent a prophet to them, and he predicted a future event, (and it could have been days, months or years away), and it came true with hair splitting accuracy, they believed.
Abraham was justified by his faith. Of course God personally spoke to the prophets. But when Sarah and Abraham were in their 90's, God promised him a child. Not only a child but that a natiin would be generated throufh his seed. Sarah laughed at the thoufht if her getting pregnant, she didn't believe and Abraham doubted as well. He misinterpreted God and thought well maybe he should mate with his younger servant, Hagar. Hagar got pregnant and they thought this was what God ment. Nope. Sarah, in her 90's got pregnant.
Then years later, when his son Isaac got older, God instructed him to sacrifice him. He was really distraught and confused. "Why does he want me to do that, he must have pondered"? He loved his son and God promised him that his seed would generate a great nation. He obeyed and proceeded. Just as he was about to kill his son, God stopped him (well an angel did) and provided a lamb for the sacrifice instead that it just so happened to be close by. God was just testing Abraham's faith and trust and Abraham proved obedient and faithful.
Abraham's faith was based on God's word, experiences and provisions which were facts.
I look back and see how God orchestrated my life events, how He has loved and guided me - that He was always there. I saw how He led me to that divine appointment. There was no chance involved, but a plan.
Chance has no power, no mind or will to accomplish anything, to order events - CHANCE IS NOTHING BUT A EMPTY NOTION OF THE EXISTENCE OF LIFE AND ORDER IN THE UNIVERSE WERE SO CAUSED BY IT.
Order points to a plan.
Life points to a Life GIVER. Design points to a Designer.
He is the Author of my faith. It is not something we contrive in ourselves.
A famous scripture proves that there is a higher power that orders things. "What you sow is what you reap." How does the universe take account for the things that each and everyone does, (good or bad) weigh them, decide how and when to return them for the purpose of a blessing or punishment and a lesson learned? The universe and/nature does not have a mind to order such things.
My mom used to tell us that everything happens for the best! How does that work? What are the physics behind that? There arent any mathematical formulas for that. There is God though.
"God causes all things to work for good for those who love the Lord, for those who are called to His purpose." Rom. 8:28
So, how has your life been in regards to things happening for the best?
When things happen, we don't always think they are good for us. Later after we've learned a good lesson and gathered wisdom, we realize it was for the best.
So have you had a lot of these experiences where you sowed what you reaped?
If life has been just a long series of tragedies, failures, pain and suffering, you might not be one who is called to His purpose. Reprobates are already judged - He knows where they are going. Their lives usually do not evidence the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, hope, faith, goodness, kindness, gentleness, self - control.
No, their lives usually are wicked. Romans 1 gives a long list of descriptions.
The good news is you are likely on His list to be saved.
Without me knowing you, I sense you have answered those above questions with a yes. You wanted evidence /facts.
Unction is evidence. That inner voice that tells you,
"You ought to go this way or do or don't do something."
We naturally think that our thoughts are either self -generated ir received from an outer source: books, media, other people, etc. We have lots stored up. But sometimes a warning comes out of nowhere. If it is self generated, why do we argue with it, why don't we agree with ourselves? No we analyse, wrestle with it, think it through and decide to do something else - and what happens? We screw up. We should have gone with the first impression/unction. God speaks to us this way... how else would He guide us?
One last thing. There is a book written by a former atheist, "The Case For Faith", by Lee Strobel. He was an award winning investigate journalist who sought out to disprove faith in God. Through his research, he became a believer. This guy was a lawyer as well. Then he also wrote, "The Case For Christ" too.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
These truths are why I created the thread Evidence To Be Seen.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
God puts desire for meaning in our hearts. The universe was designed with the intention for man to discover its mysteries. And in the search for origins, we find iur Creator.
Yes. And faith is both objective and subjective. We can observe it and also experience it. Salvation for you will be subjective. It requires you only to be reconciled to God through Christ. You are the subject, who will be called when the time comes and you need to answer that call and I am being objective abou+t that.
I don't quite get that concept. Could you give an example ... of nature that does not reflect innate value?
Nature that is loved and cared for reflects that innate value. You love and care for anyone or anything and that live transforms has an effect in that oersin or thing and the love is reflected.
We are lived by God and in turn reflect God's love. That is the whole pointbif being Christ-like, to be a reflection of God's love.
Even your love for tour dog or garden will reflect that innate value outward. Dogs are happy, gardens grow beautifully.
Soloman said everything under the sun without God is vanity of vanities and all paths, activities and desires are chasing after the wind.
Without God you are stuck in a vortex of moral relativism, where there is no absolutes.
There are absolutes. Temporal things will pass away. There are things that will not. You may discover them.
I have one final huge piece kf evidence of (aside from Jesus Himself) that I would like to share with you, but it appears you have forgotten about your thread for the past month ... on vacation?
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