The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

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Ronald Nolette

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Regardless of nominative or dative, the object (noun) modified by the singular adjective poneros (evil) is "one" resulting in "evil one" for both 1 John 5:18 and 1 John 5:19.

By the way, in grammar, a subject (noun) does an action (verb) upon a direct object while in some instances an indirect object is the recipient of the direct object.
1) a direct object is properly termed "a direct object of the subject".
2) an indirect object is properly termed "an indirect object of the subject".

When you wrote "indirect object of lies", then you have linguistically illegally applied the object of poneros (evil one) to the verb "lies".

This is basic grammar that you fail to understand.

You previously brought up Paul, but you gave no scriptural citations, yet I provided scriptural citations for Paul and you makes no mention of these citations that show the agreement between Paul and John.

See the correlation between 1 John 5:18 and Ephesians 2:3.

Also, see the correlation between 1 John 5:19 and Ephesians 2:2.

The construct of the passage is, specifically, that John writes of the born of God Christian "the evil one does not touch him" (1 John 5:18) as well as John writes of tje non-christians "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

John used compare and contrast between the evil one's relationship to the saved and the evil one's relationship to the unsaved (1 John 5:18-19).

Paul also abused compare and contrast for the same purpose as John.

Paul wrote of the "evil one", that is Satan, with "the prince of the power of the air" (Ephesians 2:2).

Paul, like John, describes how the non-christians have "spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2), yet born again Christians "all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh" (Ephesians 2:3).

A Christian lies in Christ - that is one with Lord Jesus - not serving two masters.

A non-christian lies in the evil one - that is outside of Christ.

Christ died exclusively for His chosen friends.


Where does a Christian live physically? does He lis in heavenly places physically or does he lie in this present evil (poneros) world? Once again the is a spatial or geographic connotation and not a relational connotation according to the definition of "lie".

Also why then do the older translators all write it as wickedness and it is only the more modern translators who translate it as wicked one.
Do you think they are more scholarly than the older scholars?

Here is an argument from a greek scholar:

"The second difficulty with 1 John 5:19 is with the phrase “the wicked one.” Technically, the word “one” in “wicked one” is not there. This is why the King James Version, for example, translates the word as “wickedness” rather than “the wicked one.” The Greek word is a substantival adjective, which means that it is an adjective used in the place of a noun. We do this in English, as with the Clint Eastwood movie, “The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.”

So in 1 John 5:19, translators have to decide whether the substantive adjective (Gk., tō ponērō) is referring a thing (wickedness) or to a being (the wicked one). Those translators that opt for “a being” called “the wicked one” then add additional words to the verse to show how the world lies on the wicked one. They say it lies under “the power” or under “the sway” of the wicked one (NIV, NAS, NKJV). Those translations that opt for a thing, “wickedness,” need no additional words to explain John’s point (KJV, Rheims).".

Now the verses:

1 John 5:18-19
King James Version

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.


One cannot say in 18 that the wicked one doesn't touch (relationally) haptomai, and then in verse 19 John says the whole world lies (kemai) meaning in a relational way and then try to say the whole world doesn't mean the whole world!

NO NO NO! In verse 18, we have no relationship with Satan, but in verse 19 we lie or inhabit his domain or wickled ness for the whole world is plunged in wickedness.
 

Wrangler

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Do you think they are more scholarly than the older scholars?

Yes, 100%.

Not only more scholarly in terms of tools, like the internet, but more scholarly in terms of knowledge of facts, Scriptural reference manuscripts and language usage.

Also why then do the older translators all write it as wickedness and it is only the more modern translators who translate it as wicked one.

A more precise translation, thought for thought rather than word for word.

NO NO NO! In verse 18, we have no relationship with Satan, but in verse 19 we lie or inhabit his domain or wickled ness for the whole world is plunged in wickedness.

After all this, I’m not sure what distinction you are seeking to make.

Having said that, I am shocked to read you deny we have no relationship to Satan! Jesus even warned to be careful when demons depart for more may return.
 

brightfame52

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Another scripture that shows limited atonement, that Christ's death wasn't for all without exception !

2 Cor 8:9

For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

The becoming poor here refers to His coming to die as in Phil 2:5-8, and Paul says that "it was for your sakes " that He did this ! The your sakes being the Church, the Body of Christ 1 Cor 1:1-2

Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

The same Church spoken of here Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
 

Kermos

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It certainly does and Jesus affirms this in the very next verse; those who are not against us are for us. One cannot be FOR Jesus and not choose him.

Regarding *Luke 9:49-50,..

"in whose name" determines "to whose glory"

John said someone was casting out demons "in Jesus' name", specifically "in Your name"; in effect, John said the someone attributes the casting out of demons "to Jesus' glory".

You said that @Pearl chooses Jesus "in her autonomous free will", that is "in her name"; in effect, you said @Pearl attributes her choosing of Jesus "to @Pearl's glory".

"to whose glory" determines "who is for you"

Since John conveyed that the someone acted "to Jesus' glory", then Jesus says this applies, “Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you" (Luke 9:49-50).

Since you conveyed that @Pearl acted "to @Pearl's glory", then Jesus says not this applies, “Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you" (Luke 9:49-50).

* full text of Luke 9:49-50:
49 John answered and said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us.”
50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you.”
(Luke 9:49-50)


Notice that Jesus did not say whether the someone was already/is/will become a disciple of Christ.


Since the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), then Christ died ONLY for the disciples of Christ.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Not only more scholarly in terms of tools, like the internet, but more scholarly in terms of knowledge of facts, Scriptural reference manuscripts and language usage.


That is why we have goons like Moffat and Goodspeed and Westcott and Hort? Is that why Nestle-Aland have multiple Greek grammars out?

Is that why today we have more dynamic equivalent bibles than actual translations?

Yes we have the internet which makes things faster, but the Greek hasn't changed, the endings haven't changed, the tenses, moods, voices cases etc. haven't changed. To me the best English bible is Kittles 10 Volume Greek English NT. I use enormous amount of linguistic tools in understanding the bible.

As for manuscript evidence. You should do a study on the manuscripts. YOu will be shocked to find out how many are questionable.
 

Kermos

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Where does a Christian live physically? does He lis in heavenly places physically or does he lie in this present evil (poneros) world? Once again the is a spatial or geographic connotation and not a relational connotation according to the definition of "lie".

Also why then do the older translators all write it as wickedness and it is only the more modern translators who translate it as wicked one.
Do you think they are more scholarly than the older scholars?

Here is an argument from a greek scholar:

"The second difficulty with 1 John 5:19 is with the phrase “the wicked one.” Technically, the word “one” in “wicked one” is not there. This is why the King James Version, for example, translates the word as “wickedness” rather than “the wicked one.” The Greek word is a substantival adjective, which means that it is an adjective used in the place of a noun. We do this in English, as with the Clint Eastwood movie, “The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.”

So in 1 John 5:19, translators have to decide whether the substantive adjective (Gk., tō ponērō) is referring a thing (wickedness) or to a being (the wicked one). Those translators that opt for “a being” called “the wicked one” then add additional words to the verse to show how the world lies on the wicked one. They say it lies under “the power” or under “the sway” of the wicked one (NIV, NAS, NKJV). Those translations that opt for a thing, “wickedness,” need no additional words to explain John’s point (KJV, Rheims).".

Now the verses:

1 John 5:18-19
King James Version

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.


One cannot say in 18 that the wicked one doesn't touch (relationally) haptomai, and then in verse 19 John says the whole world lies (kemai) meaning in a relational way and then try to say the whole world doesn't mean the whole world!

NO NO NO! In verse 18, we have no relationship with Satan, but in verse 19 we lie or inhabit his domain or wickled ness for the whole world is plunged in wickedness.

The Apostle Paul wrote "the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual" (1 Corinthians 15:46).

The Apostle Paul explains that the received Scripture is spiritual with "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Again, as previously presented to you "Do not forget the Bible is a spiritual book about spiritual matters".

Since you quote your translator, then I take your translator's writings as if they are your writings.

The English word "lies" in 1 John 2:2 derives from the Greek word "κεῖται" (Strong's 2749 - keimai - to be laid, lie) which specifically means "lay", not the word "sway" as you wickedly try to minimize the spiritual meaning, but truly the word "lies".

Since "lies in" denotes to "abide in" and "reside in" and "touching" in 1 John 5:19, then the definition of "lies in" includes relational.

You claim "wicked one" is error, and as support you use 'We do this in English, as with the Clint Eastwood movie, “The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.”', yet the title truly means “The Good One, the Bad One, and the Ugly One", so the noun "one" is implicit to the substantive adjective according to properly grammatical linguistics - both in the title and 1 John 5:19.

Let's drop the word "one" from 1 John 5:19 "the whole world lies in the evil" (1 John 5:19), and the resultant English adjective "evil" cognitively requires the implicit noun which is proper grammar; therefore, both the Greek and English can have the adjective only, but since English does not have a representation to indicate a singular adjective as Greek does, then the word "one" provides the specificity that English lacks.

The "evil one" is related to "the whole world" in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

You failed to acknowledge "the correlation between 1 John 5:18 and Ephesians 2:3" as well as "the correlation between 1 John 5:19 and Ephesians 2:2" which were previously presented to you, and no apology, no humility, expressed from you.

You failed to acknowledge 'When you wrote "indirect object of lies", then you have linguistically illegally applied the object of poneros (evil one) to the verb "lies".' which were previously presented to you, and no apology, no humility, expressed from you.

John writes a spiritual point about the spiritually born of God Christian "the evil one does not touch him" (1 John 5:18) as well as John writes of the non-christians "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

John used compare and contrast between the evil one's relationship to the saved, that is not touching, contrasted against the evil one's relationship to the unsaved, that is touching (1 John 5:18-19).

A Christian lies in Christ - that is one with Lord Jesus - not serving two masters.

A non-christian lies in the evil one - that is outside of Christ - this is not the place of Christians.

Christ died exclusively for His chosen friends whom Christ protects from the evil one touching.
 

Kermos

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@Wrangler and @Pearl,

This fourth post shows one among the many scriptural points that prove Lord Jesus says "you" to all His disciples in all time during the supper recorded in John chapters 13 to 17, including when He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

The Audience Identified For Lord Jesus Christ's Words About Choosing

Lord Jesus says to Peter, James, John, and Andrew "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37), so the Lord includes every member of the Assembly of God when he says "you" to His disciples.

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

Related post 1: more disciples present at supper

Related post 2: Free-willian's Claim To Superiority Over The Apostles

Related post 3: The Friend Of Jesus (John 15:15) Is Exclusively Chosen By Jesus (John 15:16)
 

Ronald Nolette

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You claim "wicked one" is error, and as support you use 'We do this in English, as with the Clint Eastwood movie, “The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.”', yet the title truly means “The Good One, the Bad One, and the Ugly One", so the noun "one" is implicit to the substantive adjective according to properly grammatical linguistics - both in the title and 1 John 5:19.

Let's drop the word "one" from 1 John 5:19 "the whole world lies in the evil" (1 John 5:19), and the resultant English adjective "evil" cognitively requires the implicit noun which is proper grammar; therefore, both the Greek and English can have the adjective only, but since English does not have a representation to indicate a singular adjective as Greek does, then the word "one" provides the specificity that English lacks.

Well you won't convince me and I won't convince you and I tire of your not so subtle ad-hominems that I am somehow either unsaved or carnal or unseeing whatever. Have th elast post and we will let god deecide when we both meet in His kingdom. Unless of course you still think me unsaved- then I won't see you in heaven maybe. god will spare me
 

Kermos

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Welcome to my ignore list.
Sorry Kermos but I need to put you on ignore as I don't come on this site to argue. Bye.

@brightfame52, look, both @Wrangler and @Pearl tongue's have been stopped by the Word of God (Romans 3:19).

They embrace adding to the Word of God and subtracting from the Word of God as shown in the following posts in this thread.

@Pearl
God had me proclaim the Word of God to you that the Word says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation)
and
God had me proclaim to you that the "all" in Romans 6:10 is restricted to the persons of whom Lord Jesus Christ chooses
and
God had me proclaim to you that Lord Jesus quoted the recorded word in Numbers 21:8-9 as a direct correlation to His recorded words in John 3:14-16, so Christ causes the word "world" in John 3:16 to mean the population of persons currently are or in the future to be imparted the work of God unto salvation that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29)
and
God had me proclaim to you that Lord Jesus dies for His friends
and
God had me proclaim to you that Christ died exclusively for His friends in whom Christ imparts faith/belief in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29)
and
God had me proclaim to you that Christ died exclusively for His friends whom Christ causes to turn to Himself, that is people who Christ causes to repent
and
God had me proclaim to you that God exclusively (1) chooses the people of God, (2) causes the people of God to believe in Jesus, (3) wrings good deeds/works/fruit in the people of God, (4) births/generates the people of God anew, (5) is the source of repentance in the people of God, and (6) is the fountain of love in the people of God
and
God had me proclaim to you that you claim to be superior to the Apostles
and
God had me proclaim to you that your words convey that Jesus the Lord does not call you friend - and the Christ says "by your words you will be condemned" (Matthew 12:37)

@Wrangler
you claim to lie in the evil one (1 John 5:19), the place of non-christians
and
you add the word "choose" to Luke 9:49-50 where "choose" does not exist in order to make your deceitful defense of @Pearl's lie
and
Regarding *Luke 9:49-50,, (1) "in whose name" determines "to whose glory" leading to (2) "to whose glory" determines "who is for you"
 
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Ronald Nolette

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@brightfame52, look, both @Wrangler and @Pearl tongue's have been stopped by the Word of God (Romans 3:19).

They embrace adding to the Word of God and subtracting from the Word of God as shown in the following posts in this thread.

@Pearl
God had me proclaim the Word of God to you that the Word says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation)
and
God had me proclaim to you that the "all" in Romans 6:10 is restricted to the persons of whom Lord Jesus Christ chooses
and
God had me proclaim to you that Lord Jesus quoted the recorded word in Numbers 21:8-9 as a direct correlation to His recorded words in John 3:14-16, so Christ causes the word "world" in John 3:16 to mean the population of persons currently are or in the future to be imparted the work of God unto salvation that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29)
and
God had me proclaim to you that Lord Jesus dies for His friends
and
God had me proclaim to you that Christ died exclusively for His friends in whom Christ imparts faith/belief in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29)
and
God had me proclaim to you that Christ died exclusively for His friends whom Christ causes to turn to Himself, that is people who Christ causes to repent
and
God had me proclaim to you that God exclusively (1) chooses the people of God, (2) causes the people of God to believe in Jesus, (3) wrings good deeds/works/fruit in the people of God, (4) births/generates the people of God anew, (5) is the source of repentance in the people of God, and (6) is the fountain of love in the people of God
and
God had me proclaim to you that you claim to be superior to the Apostles
and
God had me proclaim to you that your words convey that Jesus the Lord does not call you friend - and the Christ says "by your words you will be condemned" (Matthew 12:37)

I am glad teh one who receives us (for we have passed form death to life) is named Jesus and not Kermos!

@Wrangler you claim to lie in the evil one (1 John 5:19), the place of non-christians
and
you add the word "choose" to Luke 9:49-50 where "choose" does not exist in order to make your deceitful defense of @Pearl's lie
and
Regarding *Luke 9:49-50,, (1) "in whose name" determines "to whose glory" leading to (2) "to whose glory" determines "who is for you"
 

Kermos

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Well you won't convince me and I won't convince you and I tire of your not so subtle ad-hominems that I am somehow either unsaved or carnal or unseeing whatever. Have th elast post and we will let god deecide when we both meet in His kingdom. Unless of course you still think me unsaved- then I won't see you in heaven maybe. god will spare me

The Holy Spirit of God convicts (John 16:8), but I am merely a vessel of the Holy Spirit confessing the Truth (John 14:6).

You failed to acknowledge "the correlation between 1 John 5:18 and Ephesians 2:3" as well as "the correlation between 1 John 5:19 and Ephesians 2:2" which were previously presented to you, and no apology, no humility, expressed from you.

You failed to acknowledge 'When you wrote "indirect object of lies", then you have linguistically illegally applied the object of poneros (evil one) to the verb "lies".' which were previously presented to you, and no apology, no humility, expressed from you.

You failed to acknowledge "Let's drop the word 'one' from 1 John 5:19 'the whole world lies in the evil' (1 John 5:19), and the resultant English adjective 'evil' cognitively requires the implicit noun which is proper grammar; therefore, both the Greek and English can have the adjective only, but since English does not have a representation to indicate a singular adjective as Greek does, then the word 'one' provides the specificity that English lacks" which were previously presented to you, and no apology, no humility, expressed from you.

Your answer of "yes" to the question "@Ronald Nolette, do you believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in 'the whole world lies in the evil one' (1 John 5:19)?" places you in the location of inside the evil one - a place with you touching the evil one - the place of non-christians - Christians are not touched by the evil one (1 John 5:18).
 

brightfame52

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Christ died for His Church is plain !

Eph 5:25-27

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

He gave Himself for IT, the Church. To go beyond what scripture says is presumption !

What about scriptures like Heb 2:9 ? Tasting death for every man is still referring to the Church He gave Himself for. It simply means He gave Himself for every man that constitutes His Body the Church.
 

Kermos

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I hope so! You and I place different values on literal word translations.

If a cartographer copies a source map which properly charts a critical road, yet the cartographer renders a line for the critical road along a different geographic route which intersects a deep fissure at a blind turn, then the cartographer produces a derived map that leads to death (Matthew 15:14, John 10:1).

Bible translators, like the cartographer example above, who translate divergently from the original Greek can lead to deadly and damning results.

A misleading translation of 1 John 5:19 adding to the Greek scripture is "know that the world around us is in the grips of the evil one" which substantially deviates from the Greek, and you quoted this Bible translation that you called "The Voice" in earlier correspondence in this thread between you and I, and your translation inaccurately depicts the Greek.

The accurate translation of 1 John 5:19 according to the Greek is "the whole world lies in the evil one".

An example of the damning results of the divergent "The Voice" Bible version is illuminated by the fact that you answered "yes" to the question "do you believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)?".

The original manuscripts of the Bible are accurate.

A faithful translation from the original manuscripts to a different language results in an accurate translation.
 

Ronald Nolette

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I hope so! You and I place different values on literal word translations.

Ande that says it all! I seek the most literal translations as they were written. Which is why I value Kittles 10 volume Greek NT. Why I have intense language and history tools to understand what the writer was saying, not what some modern scholar thinks they might have said 2,000 years removed from the writing!

Dynamic Equivalents are only as valuable as the authors faithfulness to the intent of th eoriginal writers use of language. Believe it or not there is a world of difference in many words from Greek to English and from Elizabethan English to modern colloquial American English.
 

Wrangler

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I seek the most literal translations as they were written.
I can tell. It does say it all.

literal translations are clumsy in terms of the language we speak today. Rather than translate the thought behind each word, thought translations transliterate the thought behind whole sentences or even paragraphs.

Here’s the difference. I merely prefer smoother flowing translations. You have contempt for translations you don’t prefer.
 

Ronald Nolette

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I can tell. It does say it all.

literal translations are clumsy in terms of the language we speak today. Rather than translate the thought behind each word, thought translations transliterate the thought behind whole sentences or even paragraphs.

Here’s the difference. I merely prefer smoother flowing translations. You have contempt for translations you don’t prefer.

Well I love the ASV as well as the NIV. I have used the KJV, Amplified, 8 translation for decades! One can learn how to adapt their thinking to Elizabethian English.

The only bible I have contempt for is the equivalents that stray from the original intent of the writers and substitute modern thought for the original thought.

If instead of presuming what I think and you simply asked you would not write lies about me. I have the testimony of thousands to show your last sentence is an utter lie!
 

Wrangler

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Why I have intense language and history tools to understand what the writer was saying, not what some modern scholar thinks they might have said 2,000 years removed from the writing!
Wow! Frankly, you seem blind to what is involved in translation, focusing exclusively on the FROM aspect.

What it translates TO is more what I rely on translations for. Otherwise, I would not rely on any translation but read in the original languages myself.