This Lie Went Down Smoothly

Lambano · Nov 25, 2021

Enoch111 said:
Since Christ died for our sins, how could anyone turn around and talk about "free sins" for Christians? It is patently absurd.

And that is precisely why it could be said that our sins are "free". Don't deceive yourself; we do sin and we will sin. (1 John 1:8). Christ died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Christ took on our sin so that we could be imputed with His righteousness. (2 Corinthians 5:21). Nothing in all creation can separate us from the love of God in Christ (Romans 8:28-39). How can we turn around and say we're not free?

That's the outline. I can of course think of some really good reasons why we should put in the moral effort to not sin and constantly strive to do as much good for as many people as we can in as many ways as we can. This is a harsh world; people get hurt by our sin, and we don't need to be contributing to the darkness. (That's just me speaking.) God is not mocked (Galatians 6:7), and Christ will judge us for the moral decisions we make in this life. (2 Timothy 4:1). In a moral universe (and I am convinced God does run a moral universe), actions must always have consequences (Romans 2:6), whatever those consequences might be in the World to Come. Is this logically incoherent? Both arguments are Biblical. Different people respond affirmatively to different emphases. That's why this argument never ends. Sometimes our theological systems have some socks hanging out of the suitcase. (Another Steve Brown-ism, which will probably rub Wynona the wrong way again.)

For most people, it comes down to, "Can I lose my salvation?" Yeah, our fleshy selves are only concerned about whether Jesus is going save our sorry butts from the fire.

MatthewG · Nov 25, 2021

@Lambano When younger before ever knowing Christ that was something that worried me because of what was taught by many people in that time about going to hell.

I never read scriptures hardly except a few times and I was extremely intimidated by them. The reality is like you mentioned, we will sin. I still make mistakes today but for the most part I don’t go crying to God about them, but go to him in understanding that he understands I am not a perfect human being and I’ll never be one.

Though we do have scriptures that can help us feed the spirit like Colossians 3:1-10, it talks about how we are to put away anger, wrath, lying to one another, put on the renewed self - putting on the identity of Christ of our new spiritual nature which is given by and through faith.

Putting on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility. (Colossians 3:12-16) letting word of Christ dwell within ourself as we live on this earth.

Romans 13:12-14 laying aside the deeds of darkness.

I believe a person can get in to the form of going to God asking forgiveness in a never ending cycle and never moving forward.

I get doing it now and again when you are mean to another person, or you lie and you are having guilt or shame arise that is coming by the holy spirit.

My encouragement to anyone reading this comment read your Bible and be encouraged to do so, and don’t be ashamed when you are trying to learn and study Gods word.

Everyone is a work in progress and we are all responsible for our own salvation, which we all live individually and will die leaving this world and going to the dimension of God where God will judge and read our hearts.

God bless and take care.

And remember I am not a perfect person I make mistakes but God does still love and care about you and me too.

amadeus · Nov 25, 2021

JohnPaul said:
Agreed Amadeus, that's how I was when I attended the Roman Catholic Church, yes I learned about God Almighty and Jesus Christ, but wasn't taught the Bible in Church or Catechism, I learned when I picked up the Good book by myself given to me by a Jehovah Witness brother I worked with back in 1989-1990, it's hard for me to remember the year, he gave me a King James Bible, as he just wanted me to start reading and not convert me, and when I started reading on my own, I learned things never taught in Church or Catechism.

I give credit to the RCC, as they were the ones who taught me about God the father and his only begotten son our Savior Jesus Christ. And I also give credit to my Jehovah's Witness brother who gave me that push to read the Bible on my own. I would like to know where this brother is today and thank him, but the company I worked for closed back in 1996 and I never kept in touch with him.

Aye my friend... your testimony is not so far from my own. The person who helped was deep into a Oneness Jesus Only group and loved God sincerely. Through him began my reading and studying the Bible for the first time in my life. I did know God in the Catholic Church like you, but no Bibles in the hands of people in those days in the church building or in the catechism teachings. I also give them credit for the good things they did for me.

Mine was earlier in time than yours... but what a mighty God we serve!

JohnPaul · Nov 25, 2021

amadeus said:
Aye my friend... your testimony is not so far from my own. The person who helped was deep into a Oneness Jesus Only group and loved God sincerely. Through him began my reading and studying the Bible for the first time in my life. I did know God in the Catholic Church like you, but no Bibles in the hands of people in those days in the church building or in the catechism teachings. I also give them credit for the good things they did for me.

Mine was earlier in time than yours... but what a mighty God we serve!

May God always bless you brother, I always found it odd the RCC never had Bibles in the pews or at Catechism they always had their own books.

Taken · Nov 25, 2021

@Wynona ~
Preachers and Teachers, Preach and Teach to a Broad range of Listeners.
Different ages, genders, depths of basic knowledge, from “minimal to steeped”.

By default, the Listeners, individually have to decided (what applies to them), same as it is when an individual reads Scripture.
“If” Scripture is speaking to “unbelievers”, and that does not “apply” to you, the “IF”, “THEN”, what applies to the “unbeliever”, IS NOT applicable “personally to you”....MOOT.

Full well known:
Some believe IN God, IN Gods Word, but not that Jesus IS the Christ.
Some believe IN God, IN Gods Word, and that Jesus IS the Word of God, and Christ, the Power and Wisdom of God.
Some believe IN “other gods”...moon, sun, statues, imaginations, men, money, status, etc.

Some believe IN God, IN Jesus, but, but, but...MAKE no commitment.
They can Believe, (hopefully not be influenced to reject), yet still MAKE no commitment.
They can Believe, (be sorry FOR dumb decisions, wicked thoughts, underhanded acts)....which MEN are QUICK to point out ARE SINS....and MEN teach, they MUST repeatedly ASK “God” for Forgiveness.

The there is the man WHO...believes IN God, IN Jesus the True Word and Christ Messiah Power and Wisdom of God....and FULLY (according to the Lord Gods WAY)....MAKE a FREEWILL decision to Wholly and Freely COMMIT their, WHOLE being, body, soul, spirit TO the WILL of God, and His Works to MAKE them WHOLE, and KEPT Whole and WITH the Lord God Almighty ... FOREVER.

ONCE THAT ^ occurs for any “individual”....A GREAT part of Scriptures, that APPLY to men “who have NOT freely chosen to surrender their WHOLE life to the Lord God”.....NO LONGER APPLIES.

SIN is NO LONGER, applicable.
REPEATEDLY asking God for Forgiveness, No Longer, applicable.
Taught, “PRECEPTS” of behavior Between and Among men...STILL applicable.
Men “forgiving” men of TRESPASSES (not sins)...but TRESPASSES...
Still applicable.

Prayers TO the Lord God....OF a “committed Converted man”...NO longer Applicable to continually ASK God for “forgiveness” of that which God ALREADY gave that man.

As far as Converted men, ASKING other men for Forgiveness of Trespasses...
God doesn’t require “Hearing” men ASK GOD for forgiveness of their Trespasses against men.

God via Scriptures has already notified men, IF they forgive men of a mans trespass against them......So also will God “forgive” a mans “trespasses” who himself has “trespassed” against other men.

So WHAT, should a Converted man BE PRAYING TO GOD FOR?
For Healing of living men, Poor in spirit. (Family, friends, enemies)
For Healing of Nations, Families, communities, corrupted by men.
For Gods own Spiritual Understanding of Gods own Word.
For Blessing of God Himself, being Upheld in Glory and Wonderment of men.
For Thankfulness of Gods Grace, Forgiveness, Restoration, Gifts, Blessings.
NOT....”oh, oh, God, your Forgiveness FAILED, your Salvation FAILED, your Works FAILED, forgive me, again and again!”

* Remember...many believe, but do NOT commit. They are subject to their own power and stamina and outside influence and can teeter, waver, from day to day....AND IF on the day of their “bodily” death ARE “in belief”...they shall BE saved.....so in one respect...A Preacher, Teacher IS preaching and teaching TO....”BELIEVERS”...that “do” repeatedly sin...can be forgiven “repeatedly”.

* A Committed, Converted Believer, is in a totally Different “status”...
The ARE NOT, subject to their own POWER....but have IN FACT freely and willingly subjected themselves WHOLLY, body, soul, spirit:
TO Gods POWER CHRIST, who KEEPS them Forever Freed FROM SIN, Freed from the Consequences of SIN, and FOREVER “WITH” the Lord God Almighty.

* Scripture reveals, those IN Christ, SHALL experience occupation IN Christs Earthly Kingdom, for 1,000 years. After the 1,000 years have expired...
God Raises UP in Glory, “body’s” of men, WHO “believed” in God, in Jesus...
(To the day of their bodily death), but who did NOT make a decision to CONVERT, “IN” Christ, while alive in their body.)

1 Thes 4:
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive (in Christ) and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Alive IN Christ, reign WITH Christ.
Dead IN Christ, reign WITH Christ.
After the 1,000 year reign OF and WITH Christ...
THE rest of the DEAD, IN God, IN Jesus, who believed to the end of their bodily life...
ARE RAISED UP in glory.
Rev 20:5

Just saying...Preachers and Teachers and Men in general, speak Broadly...
It is the “individual” (and God) who knows their Own Heart, knows their Own Willful commitments, knows WHAT Does and Does NOT apply to them and WHY.
YOU, as well as Others on this forum Have EXPRESSLY revealed your own FREEWILL decisions and commitment...No broad speaking Preacher, teacher or other man...can change, alter, supersede, dictate, undo a Permanent Relationship you were offered via the Lord and accepted according to the Lords Way.

Glory to God,
Taken

amadeus · Nov 25, 2021

JohnPaul said:
May God always bless you brother, I always found it odd the RCC never had Bibles in the pews or at Catechism they always had their own books.

To me it was not odd at all. It was simply the way things were done. Of course, all of my formal Catholic time was before Vatican II went into effect in the 1960s. All of the masses were in Latin and the only person who in my memory ever quoted or read from the Bible was the priest when he presented his sermon. I remember when Pope Pius XII died in 1958 and John XXIII was selected. I was in high school at the time.

Wynona · Nov 26, 2021

Lambano said:
Funny how our life experiences cause us to come to completely opposite conclusions. I found obedience derived from trust in God’s love and forgiveness, not the other way around. Different personalities respond affirmatively to different teachings, or should I say, teachings which emphasize different parts of the Bible. Such is life, I guess. But I have to respect your life experiences, @Wynona, because you’ve already earned my personal respect.

Was not expecting a respectful answer. I figured you would simply have disdain for me criticisizing a ministry you put so much support into.

You have my respect now too.

Wynona · Nov 26, 2021

Taken said:
@Wynona ~
Preachers and Teachers, Preach and Teach to a Broad range of Listeners.
Different ages, genders, depths of basic knowledge, from “minimal to steeped”.

By default, the Listeners, individually have to decided (what applies to them), same as it is when an individual reads Scripture.
“If” Scripture is speaking to “unbelievers”, and that does not “apply” to you, the “IF”, “THEN”, what applies to the “unbeliever”, IS NOT applicable “personally to you”....MOOT.

Full well known:
Some believe IN God, IN Gods Word, but not that Jesus IS the Christ.
Some believe IN God, IN Gods Word, and that Jesus IS the Word of God, and Christ, the Power and Wisdom of God.
Some believe IN “other gods”...moon, sun, statues, imaginations, men, money, status, etc.

Some believe IN God, IN Jesus, but, but, but...MAKE no commitment.
They can Believe, (hopefully not be influenced to reject), yet still MAKE no commitment.
They can Believe, (be sorry FOR dumb decisions, wicked thoughts, underhanded acts)....which MEN are QUICK to point out ARE SINS....and MEN teach, they MUST repeatedly ASK “God” for Forgiveness.

The there is the man WHO...believes IN God, IN Jesus the True Word and Christ Messiah Power and Wisdom of God....and FULLY (according to the Lord Gods WAY)....MAKE a FREEWILL decision to Wholly and Freely COMMIT their, WHOLE being, body, soul, spirit TO the WILL of God, and His Works to MAKE them WHOLE, and KEPT Whole and WITH the Lord God Almighty ... FOREVER.

ONCE THAT ^ occurs for any “individual”....A GREAT part of Scriptures, that APPLY to men “who have NOT freely chosen to surrender their WHOLE life to the Lord God”.....NO LONGER APPLIES.

SIN is NO LONGER, applicable.
REPEATEDLY asking God for Forgiveness, No Longer, applicable.
Taught, “PRECEPTS” of behavior Between and Among men...STILL applicable.
Men “forgiving” men of TRESPASSES (not sins)...but TRESPASSES...
Still applicable.

Prayers TO the Lord God....OF a “committed Converted man”...NO longer Applicable to continually ASK God for “forgiveness” of that which God ALREADY gave that man.

As far as Converted men, ASKING other men for Forgiveness of Trespasses...
God doesn’t require “Hearing” men ASK GOD for forgiveness of their Trespasses against men.

God via Scriptures has already notified men, IF they forgive men of a mans trespass against them......So also will God “forgive” a mans “trespasses” who himself has “trespassed” against other men.

So WHAT, should a Converted man BE PRAYING TO GOD FOR?
For Healing of living men, Poor in spirit. (Family, friends, enemies)
For Healing of Nations, Families, communities, corrupted by men.
For Gods own Spiritual Understanding of Gods own Word.
For Blessing of God Himself, being Upheld in Glory and Wonderment of men.
For Thankfulness of Gods Grace, Forgiveness, Restoration, Gifts, Blessings.
NOT....”oh, oh, God, your Forgiveness FAILED, your Salvation FAILED, your Works FAILED, forgive me, again and again!”

* Remember...many believe, but do NOT commit. They are subject to their own power and stamina and outside influence and can teeter, waver, from day to day....AND IF on the day of their “bodily” death ARE “in belief”...they shall BE saved.....so in one respect...A Preacher, Teacher IS preaching and teaching TO....”BELIEVERS”...that “do” repeatedly sin...can be forgiven “repeatedly”.

* A Committed, Converted Believer, is in a totally Different “status”...
The ARE NOT, subject to their own POWER....but have IN FACT freely and willingly subjected themselves WHOLLY, body, soul, spirit:
TO Gods POWER CHRIST, who KEEPS them Forever Freed FROM SIN, Freed from the Consequences of SIN, and FOREVER “WITH” the Lord God Almighty.

* Scripture reveals, those IN Christ, SHALL experience occupation IN Christs Earthly Kingdom, for 1,000 years. After the 1,000 years have expired...
God Raises UP in Glory, “body’s” of men, WHO “believed” in God, in Jesus...
(To the day of their bodily death), but who did NOT make a decision to CONVERT, “IN” Christ, while alive in their body.)

1 Thes 4:
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive (in Christ) and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Alive IN Christ, reign WITH Christ.
Dead IN Christ, reign WITH Christ.
After the 1,000 year reign OF and WITH Christ...
THE rest of the DEAD, IN God, IN Jesus, who believed to the end of their bodily life...
ARE RAISED UP in glory.
Rev 20:5

Just saying...Preachers and Teachers and Men in general, speak Broadly...
It is the “individual” (and God) who knows their Own Heart, knows their Own Willful commitments, knows WHAT Does and Does NOT apply to them and WHY.
YOU, as well as Others on this forum Have EXPRESSLY revealed your own FREEWILL decisions and commitment...No broad speaking Preacher, teacher or other man...can change, alter, supersede, dictate, undo a Permanent Relationship you were offered via the Lord and accepted according to the Lords Way.

Glory to God,
Taken

So, if Im understanding you right, you think confession for sins after conversion is unnecessary?

Lambano · Nov 26, 2021

Wynona said:
Was not expecting a respectful answer. I figured you would simply have disdain for me criticizing a ministry you put so much support into.

You have my respect now too.

It hurt that you criticized a ministry that I found to be quite helpful when things started breaking down for me nineteen years ago. But since I already understand the theological and scriptural arguments on both sides of the issue (see post #21), it was more meaningful to me that you were able to clearly and concisely state from your own experience why you found this ministry not only unhelpful but actually counterproductive to your own walk. One thing I respect from a person is that they be able to explain what they believe and why they believe it. You passed the test with flying colors. And I might've even learned something.

Taken · Nov 26, 2021

Wynona said:
So, if Im understanding you right, you think confession for sins after conversion is unnecessary?

Correct. Because a Converted person is Freed from Sin, can Not Commit Sin, Cannot Sin.

Rom 6:
[7] For he that is dead is freed from sin.
(Remember a Converted person is Crucified with Christ?)

1 John3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(Remember a Converted person is Born Again?)

Glory to God,
Taken

atpollard · Nov 26, 2021

I think you misunderstood the humor inherent in how Steve Brown teaches/talks. It was intended to be provocative but not literal “three free sins”. It was intended to emphasize the unshakable LOVE of God for His children and the freedom from the perceived need to either earn that love or the fear that we might have committed some “unforgivable sin”.

It is important for those of God’s children that believe that we have done things so terrible that God cannot forgive us, to hear just how great is the love of God for us. Those are the people whose lives are transformed by a message like “Three Free Sins”.

[No teacher, including Steve Brown, can or should ever be a substitute for the actual Word of God. To complain that some people are not reading God’s Word for themselves is not something that any preacher/teacher can really be blamed for. Who teaches “listen to me and do not read your Bible”? - not Steve Brown or any teacher I know of.]

Lambano · Nov 26, 2021

Taken said:
Correct. Because a Converted person is Freed from Sin, can Not Commit Sin, Cannot Sin.
....
Glory to God,
Taken

Now, if I were to argue this position, I'd do it this way: Christians are not under The Law (Romans 6:14), where there is no Law, sin is not reckoned (Romans 5:13), therefore, Christians do not sin. But then my hypothetical opponent would counter, it doesn't matter whether it is reckoned as "sin" or not; whatever you call it, murder, adultery, lying, stealing et. al. is morally wrong and contrary to God's will as revealed in scripture. Such thoughts, words, or deeds should be confessed, if only for the sake of the believer's conscience, for the sake of the divine relationship, and for the sake of truth.

Lambano · Nov 27, 2021

Taken said:
Correct. Because a Converted person is Freed from Sin, can Not Commit Sin, Cannot Sin.
...
1 John3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(Remember a Converted person is Born Again?)

Glory to God,
Taken

Okay, this one deserves a fuller analysis, because I see a major misunderstanding of 1 John 3:9. John's stated purpose in writing this letter is to exhort his "little children" to avoid sin. "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin." (1 John 2:1). We see this is all through the letter up to the very last verse. This of course presumes that his "little children" can sin, which is stated explicitly in 1 John 1:8, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

This letter is about a believer's identity. That also all over this letter. Who are we? We think of ourselves as those who walk in the light (1 John 1:7). Those who know the truth (1 John 2:21). The ones called children of God (1 John 3:1). What are the characteristics of one who is born of God? The ideal of someone who is born of God looks like the one known actual implementation: Jesus, and Jesus didn't sin (1 John 3:9). How can John say that when he has already conceded that we can and do sin? The author would be contradicting himself, and the letter would be logically incoherent. What's the point in studying an incoherent letter? But what's happening here is the author is using the rhetorical technique of appealing to his audience's shared identity as children of God as part of his exhortation to avoid sin. "You are a Child of God. Now act like it!" That is how these passages serve the stated purpose of the letter.

I would also note that John promises that when Jesus comes back, we will finally and truly look like Him (1 John 3:2) - without sin in actuality. I'm hanging on to that promise.

farouk · Nov 27, 2021

JohnPaul said:
May God always bless you brother, I always found it odd the RCC never had Bibles in the pews or at Catechism they always had their own books.

@JohnPaul There needs to be an attitude of SOLA SCRIPTURA, right?

JohnPaul · Nov 27, 2021

farouk said:
@JohnPaul There needs to be an attitude of SOLA SCRIPTURA, right?

I don't speak or understand Latin, English only.

farouk · Nov 27, 2021

JohnPaul said:
I don't speak or understand Latin, English only.

= "by Scripture alone"

farouk · Nov 27, 2021

Wynona said:
So, if Im understanding you right, you think confession for sins after conversion is unnecessary?

@Wynona I don't see that the supposed sinless perfection of the believer is Scriptural, even though the true believer is completely justified by faith (Romans 5.1).

Taken · Nov 27, 2021

Lambano said:
Now, if I were to argue this position, I'd do it this way: Christians are not under The Law (Romans 6:14), where there is no Law, sin is not reckoned (Romans 5:13), therefore, Christians do not sin. But then my hypothetical opponent would counter, it doesn't matter whether it is reckoned as "sin" or not; whatever you call it, murder, adultery, lying, stealing et. al. is morally wrong and contrary to God's will as revealed in scripture. Such thoughts, words, or deeds should be confessed, if only for the sake of the believer's conscience, for the sake of the divine relationship, and for the sake of truth.

I wasn’t arguing, but stating my belief and why.
I find a Difference between a Believer and CONFESSED, CONVERTED Believer.
(Both can and do call themselves Christians.)
(A Confessed Jewish Believer can and do call themselves Messianic Jews)

Gentiles, Jews, Christians can and do Sin.
Converted men IN Christ, ARE born of God, can not, do not Sin.

Immorality, applies to mortals, behavior between Mortals, who ARE “earthly” men.
Men call that behavior “morality”.
Scripture calls behavior between men: “Precepts”.
Immoral acts between men, Many men CALL SIN.
Immoral acts between men, Scripture calls TRESPASSES.

In the most basic application:
Sin IS AGAINST God. God IS the FORGIVER of SIN.
Trespasses ARE AGAINST men. Men ARE the FORGIVER of TRESPASSES.

God can and does REPEATEDLY forgive An “UNCONVERTED” believer.
God FORGIVES, ONCE and FOREVER a “CONVERTED” believer.
(What the man calls himself is irrelevant to God..Christian/Messianic Jew)

Trespasses of Men against Men, absolutely should be confessed AMONG men, and Wrongs Righted. A man may or may not forgive the trespasser.
God already notifies us GOD WILL forgive a man his Trespasses AGAINST another man, FOR the man Confessing one man to another.

I was NEVER under the Mosaic Law, to become FREED from the Law.
That does not APPLY to me.
That APPLIES to Jews, Tribesmen, Hebrews.
Being UNDER Gods “GRACE” by, through, of Christ Jesus, was Offered to ALL men. Believe that, Choose that, Submit to that...is Every man Option to exercise his FREEWILL to Accept or Not.

It is best for me to state my beliefs, according to my beliefs, Because I am the sole person who KNOWS WHY, I believe as I do.

Glory to God,
Taken

Taken · Nov 27, 2021

Lambano said:
Okay, this one deserves a fuller analysis, because I see a major misunderstanding of 1 John 3:9. John's stated purpose in writing this letter is to exhort his "little children" to avoid sin. "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin." (1 John 2:1). We see this is all through the letter up to the very last verse. This of course presumes that his "little children" can sin, which is stated explicitly in 1 John 1:8, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

Disagree.
If you review the letters written by the Apostles, they ADDRESS a Range of People’s beliefs and behaviors OF the crowd of Listeners (Much like Jesus DID, much like Clerics do).

Correct...Little Children CAN SIN!
* Hebrews, Tribesmen, Jews Believing in God and His Word....FOR 4,000 years Believed, Sinned, and Repeatedly ASKED God for Forgiveness!
* 2,000 years ago...Jesus arrives as a Babe, grows, matures, reveals (for mankind) at age 12 He is fully aware of His Purpose. Reveals (for mankind), about age 30, He Came forth Out From God, Wholly IS the Truth, Life, Way TO God, “Once and Forever”...THROUGH Jesus.
* This IS NEWS...NEW KNOWLEDGE...A NEW BETTER TESTAMENT...
(Heb 7:22)
* offered to BOTH Jews AND Gentiles.
(John 6:51)
* WHAT IS SO NEW ABOUT THIS NEW Teaching, NEW Testament?
* IT IS FOR “ALL” men.
(John 6:51)
* WHAT IS SO NEW ABOUT THIS NEW Teaching, NEW Testament?
* IT IS SURETY of SALVATION.
(Has 7:22)
* ALL men have the FREEWILL, to CHOOSE this NEW “WAY” or “NOT”.

^^^ On “individual” Freewill hangs the “CONFUSION” among men.
ALL MEN DO NOT, “hear, read, follow, believe, continue, stop, start again, believe”....at the exact same Time.
ALL MEN DO NOT “CHOOSE” the exact same things.
* Learning is a process. Commitment requires the process of Learning ABOUT God, ABOUT Jesus, BEFORE the individual can Be Prepared with the FACTS, the TEACHING, to Freely Choose to COMMIT to WHAT God is Offering.
* ONCE the “individual” is SURE...
(2 Pet 1:10)
THEN is that “individual” prepared TO Call on the Lord, Confess his ELECTION
(Heartful, Freewill, Choice of God and His Word).
(2 Pet 1:10)

Men calling “themselves” ... Jews or Gentiles ... Believers or Not... Jewish or Christians.......DOES NOT MEAN....”they have expressly called on the Lord and Heartfully Confessed their Belief!”

This letter is about a believer's identity. That also all over this letter. Who are we? We think of ourselves as those who walk in the light (1 John 1:7). Those who know the truth (1 John 2:21). The ones called children of God (1 John 3:1). What are the characteristics of one who is born of God? The ideal of someone who is born of God looks like the one known actual implementation: Jesus, and Jesus didn't sin (1 John 3:9). How can John say that when he has already conceded that we can and do sin? The author would be contradicting himself, and the letter would be logically incoherent. What's the point in studying an incoherent letter? But what's happening here is the author is using the rhetorical technique of appealing to his audience's shared identity as children of God as part of his exhortation to avoid sin. "You are a Child of God. Now act like it!" That is how these passages serve the stated purpose of the letter.

1 John, is the whole letter. It speaks about John and his fellow Disciples WHO personally SAW and SPOKE TO, and HEARD Jesus first hand, and goes Forward ABOUT his Testimony to Others....
Others, Primarily his “Jewish brethren”, to whom the letter was sent.
The body of the letter, Applies TO, specific men, (his Jewish brethren) AND TO any man, ABOUT God and Gods Offering, THROUGH Christ Jesus.
Gods Offering...Through Christ Jesus’...Christ Jesus’ IS the Advocate, the Way, to Receive Forgiveness FOREVER. Christ Jesus’ IS the WAY, to BECOME Born OF GOD, Once and FOREVER. A man WHO “freely and assuredly Chooses” to Accept Gods OFFERING....BECOMES...... BORN AGAIN of Gods SEED
And BTW “WAY” Gods SEED, IS Christ.
* Everything Being “TAUGHT” BY John...IS “HOW TO” BECOME “MADE CONVERTED” ... AND the “RESULT” that APPLIES to an “individual” WHO
Freely Chooses, TO BECOME “MADE CONVERTED”....ie. 1 John 3:9

You are mixing WHAT “can” apply to a man, “IF” he becomes “Converted”, as being “applicable TO a man”....WHO IS NOT CONVERTED.

IF you ARE NOT “converted”....Jesus “IS” your Advocate, TO “Forgive your sins”, Jesus “IS” your Advocate, TO make a man to “BECOME “MADE” Converted.”
IF you “ARE CONVERTED”...WHAT DO “YOU” require an “ADVOCATE” FOR..?
Jesus.......”WAS” my Advocate.
Jesus.......”Advocated on my behalf”.
WHAT Jesus “Advocated FOR ME”...”WAS FULFILLED”...done deal!
Jesus “NO LONGER”...Intercedes, Advocates “TO GOD”, “FOR ME”.

A CONVERTED man, NO LONGER requires an Intercessor, an Advocate to Pray, Speak, TO God, or Receive a Response From God.

JOHN 16:
[26] At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

Why “Does a Converted man”....Pray TO God, Speak TO God, DIRECTLY...
”in Jesus’ Name”?

Because IT REVEALS, “your Revered REMEMBRANCE” OF Jesus “having BEEN your Advocate, your intercessory, TO GOD, (as WAS precisely God Provided to mankind, OF Jesus being Gods Exclusive Advocate and Intercessory FOR mankind).

I would also note that John promises that when Jesus comes back, we will finally and truly look like Him (1 John 3:2) - without sin in actuality. I'm hanging on to that promise.

* The Son of man, came to earth. The Son of man Shall return to earth.
All “earthly” eyes of “earthly” men SHALL SEE “the Son of man”.
* Unlike the first time, The Son of man came to earth, “WITHOUT” power,
Yet, His Power was revealed OF Him, to the World, While He was “ON” Earth., (which that He IS the Christ and Christ IS the Power of God)...
He, Shall Return, as the Son of man, (expressly so all earthly men’s eyes CAN SEE Him....However He “returns”...WITH POWER (and earthly men, ONLY SEE the “EFFECTS” of His Power).
* ONLY men, WHO “are” RAISED UP “in glory” (a spiritual body), SHALL SEE Jesus’ “Son of man’s Body (God Prepared) and SHALL SEE “CHRIST” (as HE IS). (Not only the effects of His Power, but SEE His Spiritual BODY.)
* The TIMING of men being “raised up” in glory ( a spiritual body)...IS those CONVERTED IN Christ...FIRST....they reign with Christ in His millennial Kingdom, 1,000 years.
* The REST of mankind, (to be Raised up), occurs AFTER the 1,000 year reign of CHIRST.

WHO the “WE” are that SHALL SEE “Jesus”, the Son of man....IS ALL men.
WHO the “WE” are that SHALL SEE “Christ”, the Power of God...(as he is) IS ALL Converted men.

What APPLIES to a Converted man, Does NOT APPLY to NON-Converted man.
Conversion IS a specific ACT and WORKS of God, through Christ Jesus.
Conversion IS specific, To actually being CONVERTED, according to Gods WAY.
Men calling themselves, Christians, Believers, DOES NOT reveal CONVERSION of that man Being Born of God.

Glory to God,
Taken

Desire Of All Nations · Nov 27, 2021

MatthewG said:
Remember though their are two types of Christians.

Babes - Young new born Christians they make messes and they are allowed to…

Mature - Older mature meat eating Christians who love their brothers and sisters and just desire to help with guiding them along to the truth.

God bless you and all and enjoy your thanksgivings if you have that and let’s be thankful to God every day for life.

Take care all of you,
Matthew G.

I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you when you say babes are "allowed" to make a mess. Paul didn't let the Corinthians off the hook for their carnal behavior, even though he was careful enough not to go too far in his criticism. It should be understood that new converts are going to be mostly carnal and won't learn everything overnight, but that doesn't mean they are supposed to get a pass either. Saying "they are allowed to make a mess" sends the message that there isn't any responsibility on their part to properly represent God.

Enoch111 said:
Since Christ died for our sins, how could anyone turn around and talk about "free sins" for Christians? It is patently absurd.

That's exactly what Orthodox Christianity has taught in the entirety of its existence when its adherents say that Christ supposedly abolished God's laws to the cross and that grace replaces any obligation to obey God. And the worst part is, Protestants on this forum will continue subscribing to this belief even though they have seen and acknowledged how ridiculous it is for themselves.

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