The Rapture Of The Church

(Gods Child;17876)
Hello,I am new to this thread and I must say I have found it very interesting. Just so you can get to know me, I will tell you a little about myself;I was not raised in a Church. I was saved in my back yard at the age of 38. Since there were so may Churches and so many doctrines, I stayed out of the Churches and let the Holy Spirit teach me. I studied day and night, which was a miracle in and of itself. I never read anything longer than a short magazine article before I was saved, but after I was saved, I could not get enough of God's word. I filled up 3 files cabinets of notes within the first 6 months. (BIG File cabinets....Me of all people...God's hand for sure)Since the beginning, God placed in my heart the desire for end time prophecy. I found myself drawn to it and in that, there were things that God wanted to show me. God showed me that; we will be changed at the 7th trumpet (last trumpet). I had no outside influence, only the direction, guidance and voice of God to lead me to the truth. I did not see a pre-rapture written in the scriptures. It was a few years after my salvation that I first heard of the pre-trib doctrine. So I wanted to know more about it. I started on the internet boards for the answer, as to what was pre-trib. Since that time, I have talked to 1000’s of pre-tribs and still to this date have not been given any scripture to support that belief. I feel compelled to speak out against this doctrine, because God has told me that this will end up being the great deception of the End times. This teaching has been designed by Satan to get people to believe the true Christ will come first, but in reality the false Christ will come first. Those who have been taught pre-trib will fall for this deception. They will believe the false Christ when he comes first, because they were taught that the true Christ would come first.I feel compelled to speak out for my Love of my Brethren. (To keep them from the stumble that is about to come). I have talked to pre-tribs both off and online. These are some wonderful people, who truly Love the Lord. The most that I have gotten from ANY pre-trib when asked for scriptural proof, is that, 99% of them, end up telling me that this was what they were taught. They have told me plainly, that they believe this solely because this is how they were taught and this breaks my heart. To think that, they would follow a doctrine that has no scriptural backing, which in reality makes them believe man over God. (The one thing that God detests the most). This doctrine (pre-trib) really has no consequence now, but at the time of the antichrist, this doctrine will cause those taught pre-trib to accept the antichrist as the true Christ. That in essence is the danger of this doctrine and the plan of Satan himself to prepare his way. I do not say this to hurt anyone who believes in pre-trib, but to get them to question "Why do I believe it"? Do I believe it because God said it would be this way or do I believe it because I was taught to believe it. You need to question - Where is the scriptural proof in God's word as to why I should believe it - That is the question to you need to seek the answer for.....Point blank! God's Word....Where is this written....Do not be deceived...as Jesus told us in Mathew 24 and many other places...DO NOT BE DECEIVED>..Follow God, Not man !!!!!!!!! Man has been wrong since the beginning!I know that the Majority believes in Pre-trib, but the last days will be as in the days of Noah...RememberThe Days of Noah....The Majority Drowned.....Majority does not make it truth.
I agree with you, but the thing is the vast majority of these people are those whom Jesus mentioned that would be deceived.Matthew 24:4-5 (KJV) 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. There is nothing that one can do or say to wake those who have been deceived. Those who are truly Christians will listen and flee from this secret rapture belief if they have come to see that it's not Biblically sound, but the rest will remain in there deception because they are not Jesus' sheep.John 10:25-29 (KJV) 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. But it will not be possible to deceive the chosen ones.Mark 13:22 (KJV) 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Ver24 great oberservations I think this the product of our Fast food religions come to our church for an hour and we'll tell you,Your saved, dont worry about the Judgements, your gonna be gone, (that way they dont have to learn it or explain it). Whether you like it or not Religion has become a buisness. And its run like a business and the bottom line as in all buisness is Money. What brings the most money feel good fast food doctrine or the truth. Why you gonna give the doom and gloom guy your Money when the guy across the street says hey dont worry you are gonna be flying out of here. Thats the fast and easy. Any real churches find it hard to compete so if you find a good one you better treasure it they are few and far apart.

Kriss,That is so true. I have yet to find a church that I can treasure. Every Church I have been in is pre-trib and they spend more time passing around the money plate then they do giving scripture. I wouldn't go to a restaurant that didn't serve food, why would I want to go to a Church that will not feed the flock.My son just got married last month. His bride was raised in foster care since the age of 13, since she has no parents, we paid for the wedding. She wanted to get married in the Church her grandparents took her to when she was a child. That Church charged us $600.00 for her to get married there. Her Grandmother use to be the secretary of that Church. Normally I wouldn't have paid it, but I knew that it was special to the bride and had some good childhood memories.(which was far and between for her). So we bit the bullet and paid it, but it was all about greed for that Church, not compassion. They knew her situation. I walked away thinking - Marriage is a Gift from God, but the Churches now a days has place an expensive price tag on something that should be free, as it comes from the Lord. A friend of mine told me that is the norm for Churches today. Some of them charge as much as $800 to get married in their Church if you are not a member. How sad. That Church is a pre-trib Church, because I had visited it a few years ago. I just had to throw that in there, because I'm still steaming over it.

(Gods Child;17969)
Kriss,That is so true. I have yet to find a church that I can treasure. Every Church I have been in is pre-trib and they spend more time passing around the money plate then they do giving scripture. I wouldn't go to a restaurant that didn't serve food, why would I want to go to a Church that will not feed the flock.My son just got married last month. His bride was raised in foster care since the age of 13, since she has no parents, we paid for the wedding. She wanted to get married in the Church her grandparents took her to when she was a child. That Church charged us $600.00 for her to get married there. Her Grandmother use to be the secretary of that Church. Normally I wouldn't have paid it, but I knew that it was special to the bride and had some good childhood memories.(which was far and between for her). So we bit the bullet and paid it, but it was all about greed for that Church, not compassion. They knew her situation. I walked away thinking - Marriage is a Gift from God, but the Churches now a days has place an expensive price tag on something that should be free, as it comes from the Lord. A friend of mine told me that is the norm for Churches today. Some of them charge as much as $800 to get married in their Church if you are not a member. How sad. That Church is a pre-trib Church, because I had visited it a few years ago. I just had to throw that in there, because I'm still steaming over it.
Your experience reminds me of what Jesus said about those who were doing business at the temple.Matthew 21:13 (KJV) 13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

(Gods Child;17969)
Kriss,That is so true. I have yet to find a church that I can treasure. Every Church I have been in is pre-trib and they spend more time passing around the money plate then they do giving scripture. I wouldn't go to a restaurant that didn't serve food, why would I want to go to a Church that will not feed the flock.My son just got married last month. His bride was raised in foster care since the age of 13, since she has no parents, we paid for the wedding. She wanted to get married in the Church her grandparents took her to when she was a child. That Church charged us $600.00 for her to get married there. Her Grandmother use to be the secretary of that Church. Normally I wouldn't have paid it, but I knew that it was special to the bride and had some good childhood memories.(which was far and between for her). So we bit the bullet and paid it, but it was all about greed for that Church, not compassion. They knew her situation. I walked away thinking - Marriage is a Gift from God, but the Churches now a days has place an expensive price tag on something that should be free, as it comes from the Lord. A friend of mine told me that is the norm for Churches today. Some of them charge as much as $800 to get married in their Church if you are not a member. How sad. That Church is a pre-trib Church, because I had visited it a few years ago. I just had to throw that in there, because I'm still steaming over it.
My mission in the USA is to encourage young people to read the Bible instead of attending church because the churches are encouraging everyone to attending the church and make them believe falsely they are ok as long as they attend the church. How sad.love, hitomi

(verzanumi24;17988)
Your experience reminds me of what Jesus said about those who were doing business at the temple.Matthew 21:13 (KJV) 13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
I know what you mean. When I go into such a Church, I feel God tell me to GET OUT. It's such a strong feeling that I get (I know that it is the Holy Spirit) and I GET OUT like the building is on fire.

(Joyful;17991)
My mission in the USA is to encourage young people to read the Bible instead of attending church because the churches are encouraging everyone to attending the church and make them believe falsely they are ok as long as they attend the church. How sad.love, hitomi
That is such a great mission and one that is on my heart as well. We need to direct people of all ages back to the word of God. In this world of fast food, people want their spiritual food to be fast food as well. Walk up to the door and someone will hand you what you should believe....Fast food religion. Fast Food Religion....It might be easy to swallow now, but in the end they will choke on it.

I know what you mean. When I go into such a Church, I feel God tell me to GET OUT. It's such a strong feeling that I get (I know that it is the Holy Spirit) and I GET OUT like the building is on fire.
I believe the organized churches are "Babylon the Great" and you are right, we should encourage churchgoers to get out of there.

(Gods Child;17878)
From reading your post I take it that you are pre-trib. How then do you explain the previous verses of Rev 20:4-5?20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.How can there be a resurrection before the mark of the beast, since this tells us that those that did not take the mark of the beast are in the 1st resurrection. If this is the FIRST resurrection after the mark of the beast....... How can their be a resurrection 7 years prior, since this is called the first and places it after the mark of the beast?
That is an interesting point, God's ChildI'm still working through these issues myself because I've been taught for24 years since I came to the Lord about the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.I'm still digging and studying. This forum has really challenged me to do more study on what I've been taught by denominations.

When the church is raptured has never been a big issue for me. My goal is to be faithful regardless of whether I died before he comes or not.Re-reading Revelation, it sounds like we (the church) are with Christ after the seal judgements & before the trumpet judgements.

from what I have read in the bible, it says the dead in christ shall rise first, then we who are alive will meet him in in the sky (no one really knows the time place or the exact location we will meet but we do know that "in christ" suggests that their will be a division in the end and those in christ will leave and those who are left on earth are the unrepentant sinners...and since we know there will be a division we know that life will go on as we me meet God meaning we will be gone before the rapture begins...and in no wise will those "in christ" before the rapture experience the end times.

ALL on earth will be changed into spritual bodies at Christ return there will be none left behind where you get this dividing from I'm not sure.

(kriss;18508)
ALL on earth will be changed into spritual bodies at Christ return there will be none left behind where you get this dividing from I'm not sure.
The saints will be changed from there lowly bodies to a glorious spiritual body, but the rest of humanity will still be as they now are. The saints will rule over the earth, with Jesus. During that time God will pure out His Spirit on all flesh; meaning, they too will be brought into the kingdom of God.

(verzanumi24)
(Kriss)
ALL on earth will be changed into spritual bodies at Christ return there will be none left behind where you get this dividing from I'm not sure.
The saints will be changed from there lowly bodies to a glorious spiritual body, but the rest of humanity will still be as they now are. The saints will rule over the earth, with Jesus. During that time God will pure out His Spirit on all flesh; meaning, they too will be brought into the kingdom of God.Then how can you say this to...I Corinthians 15:51 - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,Lovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.

Flesh can not enter heaven and heaven will be on earth1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.All flesh is subject to death

(thesuperjag;18541)
Then how can you say this to...I Corinthians 15:51 - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,Lovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
The writer was addressing Christians; he did not mean that unbelievers will be changed at Jesus' return.

Christ died for ALL not some. What you mean is you think God said All when he meant some?? You think he used the Word All twice in one verse by mistake??We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

(kriss;18548)
Christ died for ALL not some. What you mean is you think God said All when he meant some?? You think he used the Word All twice in one verse by mistake??We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed
Yea, I still have to agree with you Kriss. If Yahshua died for some, is it possisble to fit this scripture?Romans 3:29 - Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:My answer is NO! It is impossible to fit that scripture if Yahshua died for some.Lovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.

(kriss;18548)
Christ died for ALL not some. What you mean is you think God said All when he meant some?? You think he used the Word All twice in one verse by mistake??We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed
It is true that Jesus died for all; but in order for one to receive all the promise of God, one has to first repent and receive the Holy Spirit. Not everyone will have His Spirit in them when Jesus returns, in fact the vast majority will not. But there time will be when Jesus establishes His kingdom on the earth

Doesn't matter, Good and Evil, both shall be changed. You think that Evil shall be judged in their flesh body at Judgement Day? Is that what you are saying? I say it's nonsense.Lovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.