When did Daniel 7:13-14 happen?

Aunty Jane said:

There are two resurrections for two completely different groups of people. The “first resurrection” is first in time and first in importance because those resurrected to heaven at the Lord’s return were to set up the Kingdom of God, taking their positions during these last days, (Revelation 20:6) ready to take over as earth’s only governing body, replacing all failed human rulership under satan’s dominion, which God’s kingdom will destroy. (Daniel 2:44)

Click to expand...

Revelation 20:4 is not the Second Coming resurrection of Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15. Paul's resurrection is in the opening of the 5th and 6th Seal years before Armageddon and the resurrection of Revelation 20:4. Paul never mentions people being beheaded, and for a reason. Paul was not talking about their resurrection.

The soul is who you are, not your body nor spirit. So the soul can never die. Before the Cross, the soul was in Abraham's bosom. Guess what? Jesus told us Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom, not heaven, so Lazarus' soul was not dragged out of Paradise away from heaven. God allowed his soul to leave Abraham's bosom and enter a restored incorruptible physical body, that would never die again. A few weeks later, all of Abraham's bosom were set free and given incorruptible permanent physical bodies. They are now in Paradise, as well as Lazarus and John the Baptist.

Timtofly said:

Revelation 20:4 is not the Second Coming resurrection of Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15. Paul's resurrection is in the opening of the 5th and 6th Seal years before Armageddon and the resurrection of Revelation 20:4. Paul never mentions people being beheaded, and for a reason. Paul was not talking about their resurrection.

Click to expand...

Paul and all of the elect were expected to be raised when Christ returned....no one at that stage knew when that was to be, and for good reason I think. It was expected “soon” if the words of the Bible writers are anything to go by. But “soon” it would still be, because those who were resurrected when Jesus returned had no knowledge of the passage of time as they “slept” in their graves. When they were raised back to life, it would seem like they had just closed their eyes but a moment ago.

Paul said of “those dead in Christ” that they would “rise first”. The “first resurrection” is for “the holy ones” who would be resurrected as spirits to heaven. This is how they are “born again”....you cannot enter the spirit realm in a fleshly body.

The soul is who you are, not your body nor spirit. So the soul can never die.

Click to expand...

Since “souls” are breathers, they most certainly can die, as Ezekiel plainly stated. (Ezekiel 18:4)
Humans are mortals, which means that their lives can end. Animals and humans are both called “souls” in the scriptures, which prompted Solomon to lament that we had no superiority over the animals in death.....we breathe the same air, die the same death, and end up in the same place. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

Before the Cross, the soul was in Abraham's bosom. Guess what? Jesus told us Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom, not heaven, so Lazarus' soul was not dragged out of Paradise away from heaven. God allowed his soul to leave Abraham's bosom and enter a restored incorruptible physical body, that would never die again. A few weeks later, all of Abraham's bosom were set free and given incorruptible permanent physical bodies. They are now in Paradise, as well as Lazarus and John the Baptist.

Click to expand...

So you base this assumption on a parable that you clearly do not understand.
What is Abraham’s bosom? I am surprised by the ignorance demonstrated in the understanding of this reference. The term is used simply to identify the forepart of the human body. (male or female)
The bosom was designated in Hebrew by “chehq” (1 Kings 1:2), “choʹtsen” (Nehemiah 5:13) and the dual form of “dadh” (Ezekiel 23:3)
In Greek, it is “kolʹpos”. At the Last Supper, the apostle John was said to be reclining at Jesus bosom...a position of favour. (John 13:23)
A dearly beloved or cherished one would be held close to one’s bosom (Heb., chehq)

So, rather than some strange place designated for the “souls” of the faithful dead, the “bosom” is a actually nothing more than a position of favour. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is just that...it is an illustration depicting the situation of the religious leaders of the day (Pharisees) pictured by the rich man, and the beggar (Lazarus) who was picturing the spiritually impoverished “lost sheep” to whom Jesus was sent.

Their deaths were symbolic of a change in their status...”hades” contrary to popular belief is not “Hell” but simply the common grave of all mankind....so being “in hades” was not being in a fiery hell because the Jews had no such belief.
The two groups actually swapped places.....the “bosom of Abraham” was a position of favour with God, which was previously held by the Jews as God’s people (sons of Abraham), but now with the coming of the Christ, the ‘beggars’ were given Jesus’ special attention and those who accepted him as Messiah were now in the favoured position. The Jewish leadership were cast off by God as incorrigible hypocrites. (Matthew 23) Jesus divided the Jews into two distinct camps....those who accepted him as Messiah, and those who rejected him and clung to the lies that the Pharisees told about him, but he gave the people ample time to change their course, because his disciples continued to preach to them as well as to the Gentiles after his death.

If this was a literal account, then heaven and hell are within speaking distance to each other and a drop of water on a man’s finger is going to cool off someone existing in flames.....utterly ridiculous!

Like the account of the thief hung alongside Jesus, much is assumed that is never said or meant.

Luke 23:42-43...
“42 Then he said: “Jesus, remember me when you get into your Kingdom.” 43 And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

Do you see the placement of the comma in verse 43? There is no punctuation in Greek; translators place commas where they believe they need to be, according to their own understanding or bias.
In most cases the comma is placed after the first “you”, which changes the whole meaning of what Jesus said to this man in the Jewish understanding of what he meant.

Carefully consider what Jesus said if you place the comma after the word “you”....
“today you will be with me in paradise”.... did Jesus promise the man heaven? Where was the paradise that Jesus promised him? He was not one of the “elect” because these had to prove themselves faithful up until their death, following Jesus and obeying his teachings, so where was the original paradise that humans enjoyed? It was right here on earth where God intended for us to live forever.

Jesus was promising this man a resurrection where he will bring back all the dead, righteous or unrighteous.....(John 5:28-29) Jesus calls all of them from their graves, not heaven. The thief will be among those whom Jesus, as the Fine Shepherd, will guide and feed throughout his 1,000 year reign, bringing all mankind back to sinless life...of the sort that Adam had before his defection. This is what Jesus gave his life to attain.

The other question is....did Jesus go anywhere that day? Or was he in his tomb for three days awaiting his resurrection as he said he would be?
He actually remained on earth for 40 days before ascending to his Father. So it was impossible for this thief to be “with Jesus in heaven” if Jesus was not there himself?

There is so much that Christendom’s adherents accept without question.....but we should question everything.

Aunty Jane said:

There is so much that Christendom’s adherents accept without question.....but we should question everything.

Click to expand...

I agree. I question your whole post, that I did not quote.

You have pointed out many things which are just human interpretations. So if you think that Jesus failed at showing us more than what the surface human understanding is, then you are stuck on the surface with human understanding, rejecting the meaning Jesus was giving to us.

The point was never the literal meaning of the words. The point was to what those words indicate. Jesus was using their words to point out their understanding was flawed, not so we would settle on their flawed understanding.

To the people of that day it was just a parable. You are only seeing the same parable they did.

Aunty Jane said:

...
Like the account of the thief hung alongside Jesus, much is assumed that is never said or meant.

Luke 23:42-43...
“42 Then he said: “Jesus, remember me when you get into your Kingdom.” 43 And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

Do you see the placement of the comma in verse 43? There is no punctuation in Greek; translators place commas where they believe they need to be, according to their own understanding or bias.
In most cases the comma is placed after the first “you”, which changes the whole meaning of what Jesus said to this man in the Jewish understanding of what he meant.

Carefully consider what Jesus said if you place the comma after the word “you”....
“today you will be with me in paradise”.... did Jesus promise the man heaven? Where was the paradise that Jesus promised him? He was not one of the “elect” because these had to prove themselves faithful up until their death, following Jesus and obeying his teachings, so where was the original paradise that humans enjoyed? It was right here on earth where God intended for us to live forever.

Jesus was promising this man a resurrection where he will bring back all the dead, righteous or unrighteous.....(John 5:28-29) Jesus calls all of them from their graves, not heaven. The thief will be among those whom Jesus, as the Fine Shepherd, will guide and feed throughout his 1,000 year reign, bringing all mankind back to sinless life...of the sort that Adam had before his defection. This is what Jesus gave his life to attain.

The other question is....did Jesus go anywhere that day? Or was he in his tomb for three days awaiting his resurrection as he said he would be?
He actually remained on earth for 40 days before ascending to his Father. So it was impossible for this thief to be “with Jesus in heaven” if Jesus was not there himself?

There is so much that Christendom’s adherents accept without question.....but we should question everything.

Click to expand...

That's misleading.

19th century Bible scholar E.W. Bullinger's comment on it...

"Luke 23:43
The interpretation of this verse depends entirely on punctuation, which rests wholly on human authority, the Greek manuscripts having no punctuation of any kind till the ninth century, and then it is only a dot (in the middle of the line) separating each word. See Ap. 94.V. i..3.

The Verb "to say", when followed by hoti, introduces the ipsissima verba of what is said; and answers to our quotation marks. So here (in Luke 23:43), in the absence of hoti = "that", there may be a doubt as to the actual words included in the dependent clause. But the doubt is resolved (1) by the common Hebrew idiom, "I say unto thee this day", which is constantly used for very solemn emphasis (See note on Deut 4:26); as well as (2) by the usage observable in other passages where the verb is connected with the Gr. semeron = to-day.

1. With
hoti
: --

· Mark 14:30: "Verily I say unto thee, that (hoti) 'this day ... thou shalt deny me thrice.' "

· Luke 4:21: "And He began to say unto them, that (hoti) 'This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.' "

· Luke 5:26: "Saying (hoti =that), 'We have seen strange things to-day.' "

· Luke 19:9: "Jesus said unto him that (hoti), this day is salvation come into this house.' "
(from E. W. Bullinger's Companion Bible: Notes and Appendices. Biblesoft Formatted Electronic Database Copyright © 2014 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Timtofly said:

I agree. I question your whole post, that I did not quote.

You have pointed out many things which are just human interpretations. So if you think that Jesus failed at showing us more than what the surface human understanding is, then you are stuck on the surface with human understanding, rejecting the meaning Jesus was giving to us.

The point was never the literal meaning of the words. The point was to what those words indicate. Jesus was using their words to point out their understanding was flawed, not so we would settle on their flawed understanding.

To the people of Jesus' day it was just a parable. You are only seeing the same parable they did.

Click to expand...

The parable applied to the people of Jesus day and the same applies to today....the leadership of Christendom has done exactly the same thing as the Pharisees did. I believe that Jesus is again leading the 'lost sheep' out of a horribly corrupted and divided religious system.

Matthew 15:7-9....Jesus said of the Pharisees....
"You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”
It applies equally today....we still have those who behave like the Pharisees.

You can tell who the 'Pharisees' are by the way they dress.....and by their behavior. (Matthew 23)



Can you imagine Christ and his humble disciples dressing like this, sitting on golden thrones? Jesus was so much like the common man that Judas had to identify him with a kiss.

The fact that you have not addressed a single thing I said but just waved it all away in preference to your own view does not surprise me. I find that those in Christendom blindly accept what they are told without doing any decent research of their own.

Your reply confirms that you have no interest in doing that and I understand your position as I was once there myself.....but my questions never got satisfying, Bible based answers, so I studied the Bible myself but with the help of teachers who did understand the true meanings of what Jesus taught, I learned a lot. I learned to do thorough research. The truth as presented in the Bible is described as 'buried' or 'hidden' treasure, so some digging is required because its not just lying on the surface for lazy people to pick up and put it in their pocket.

We have to get out the shovel and dig for that truth like our lives depend on it....because it does.

Davy said:

That's misleading.

19th century Bible scholar E.W. Bullinger's comment on it...

"Luke 23:43
The interpretation of this verse depends entirely on punctuation, which rests wholly on human authority, the Greek manuscripts having no punctuation of any kind till the ninth century, and then it is only a dot (in the middle of the line) separating each word. See Ap. 94.V. i..3.

The Verb "to say", when followed by hoti, introduces the ipsissima verba of what is said; and answers to our quotation marks. So here (in Luke 23:43), in the absence of hoti = "that", there may be a doubt as to the actual words included in the dependent clause. But the doubt is resolved (1) by the common Hebrew idiom, "I say unto thee this day", which is constantly used for very solemn emphasis (See note on Deut 4:26); as well as (2) by the usage observable in other passages where the verb is connected with the Gr. semeron = to-day.

1. With
hoti
: --

· Mark 14:30: "Verily I say unto thee, that (hoti) 'this day ... thou shalt deny me thrice.' "

· Luke 4:21: "And He began to say unto them, that (hoti) 'This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.' "

· Luke 5:26: "Saying (hoti =that), 'We have seen strange things to-day.' "

· Luke 19:9: "Jesus said unto him that (hoti), this day is salvation come into this house.' "
(from E. W. Bullinger's Companion Bible: Notes and Appendices. Biblesoft Formatted Electronic Database Copyright © 2014 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Click to expand...

I'm sorry but that is just funny.....do you see what you just quoted...? Who is Billinger that I should be swayed by what he said....scholars are a dime a dozen and most of them disagree with other scholars. Pick a scholar.
Let the scriptures speak for themselves.

What Jesus said was a promise made to the man "that day".....do you not understand the gravity of moving the comma? It not only misrepresents what Jesus said, but goes against what the rest of the scriptures teach. There is no such thing as an immortal soul.

Jesus was not saying that the thief would be 'with him in heaven that day' because Jesus did not go anywhere for three days. And after his resurrection, he stayed on earth for 40 days to encourage his disciples for the hard road ahead.

To interpret it otherwise is to demonstrate that there is no grasp of the big picture......which is painted by the whole Bible not just snatches of it. No part of a human survives death. Resurrection is a restoration of life, not a continuation of it.
Christendom has fallen for the devil's first lie...."you surely will not die".....

Aunty Jane said:

I'm sorry but that is just funny.....do you see what you just quoted...? Who is Billinger that I should be swayed by what he said....scholars are a dime a dozen and most of them disagree with other scholars. Pick a scholar.
Let the scriptures speak for themselves.

Click to expand...

The point is that the Greek word means... 'this day'...

NT:4594

semeron (say'-mer-on); neuter (as adverb) of a presumed compound of the art. NT:3588 and NT:2250; on the (i.e. this) day (or night current or just passed); generally, now (i.e. at present, hitherto):

KJV - this (to-) day.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Davy said:

The point is that the Greek word means... 'this day'...

NT:4594

semeron (say'-mer-on); neuter (as adverb) of a presumed compound of the art. NT:3588 and NT:2250; on the (i.e. this) day (or night current or just passed); generally, now (i.e. at present, hitherto):

KJV - this (to-) day.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Click to expand...

You still missed the point.....the promise was made "that day".....the thief did not go to be with Jesus in Paradise "that day"....
The scriptures prove it.

Aunty Jane said:

You still missed the point.....the promise was made "that day".....the thief did not go to be with Jesus in Paradise "that day"....
The scriptures prove it.

Click to expand...

Nah, that's just what you choose to believe, and suggests that you do not believe our spirit-soul continues on to Christ after death of our flesh body. There are PLENTY of New Testament Scriptures to show that our spirit-soul continues after flesh death, and definitely is NOT literally asleep with our dead flesh waiting to be resurrected, but that's what the orthodox Jews still believe per their Old Testament traditions, that our soul is part of our material flesh body. It ain't.

Davy said:

Nah, that's just what you choose to believe, and suggests that you do not believe our spirit-soul continues on to Christ after death of our flesh body.

Click to expand...

I used to, but after a deep study of the Bible I came to see that this is a Platonic Greek idea that influenced both apostate Judaism and Christendom.
The ancient Jews did not believe in an immortal soul because that makes the resurrection redundant.
Resurrection is what Jesus did to Lazarus....whom Jesus said was “sleeping”. (John 11:11-15)
Adam was not told that he would live on after his death, only that he would die and return to the dust.

Since Jesus was Jewish, he would never have taught something that is not in the Bible.

There are PLENTY of New Testament Scriptures to show that our spirit-soul continues after flesh death, and definitely is NOT literally asleep with our dead flesh waiting to be resurrected, but that's what the orthodox Jews still believe per their Old Testament traditions, that our soul is part of our material flesh body. It ain't.

Click to expand...

Would you care to post those NT scriptures so that we can examine them in context?

Since animals are also called “souls” in Genesis, do you believe that they live on after death as well?
Where do their souls go?

So many false interpretations here...

Aunty Jane said:

Then Jesus assuring his apostles that he was “going to prepare a place” for them in heaven and was then “coming again” to take them there, flies in the face of what you just said.

Click to expand...

You like many simply do not understand the two dimensions of this earthly, and the heavenly. When Jesus died on the cross, some of the saints were resurrected and appeared to many in Jerusalem. What kind of body did they appear in, flesh bodies only to DIE again, which is against Hebrews 9:27 that we are appointed only once to die? No, they appeared in their resurrected type bodies, which according to Apostle Paul is a "spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15). In in that Paul showed that Jesus' flesh body was made "a quickening spirit". Thus the resurrection is NOT to another flesh body like the orthodox Jews believe. And flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven per Paul also (1 Corinthians 15:49-50).

There are two resurrections for two completely different groups of people. The “first resurrection” is first in time and first in importance because those resurrected to heaven at the Lord’s return were to set up the Kingdom of God, taking their positions during these last days, (Revelation 20:6) ready to take over as earth’s only governing body, replacing all failed human rulership under satan’s dominion, which God’s kingdom will destroy. (Daniel 2:44)

Click to expand...

Yes, 2 TYPES of resurrection on the day of Christ's return, one for the Just, and one for the unjust. No one is resurrected to Heaven up in the clouds to live though. When Jesus comes, that event will end... this present world in the flesh. ALL alive on earth will be changed to the spiritual body that Apostle Paul taught. The heavenly dimension is going to be revealed... right here, on earth. This is why Jesus told His elect they will reign with Him as priests and kings, on the earth (Revelation 5:9-10).

The general resurrection of the dead includes those who may never have even heard of God or his son. Jesus calls all the dead from the same place....their graves. (John 5:28-29) Paul too spoke of these ones. (Acts 24:15)

Click to expand...

None of the 'dead' are literally asleep laying in a grave in the ground. That is an old primitive Jewish belief that those in Old Testament times believed, before the giving of The New Testament. And many of today's orthodox Jews still... believe that idea, simply because they don't believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, and are thus ignorant of The New Testament writings.

Lord Jesus and His Apostles revealed that those who have died continued on back to God, and Jesus even showed the existence of a place of separation in Paradise between the saints and the wicked (Luke 16; 2 Corinthians 5; 1 Peter 3:18-20; 1 Peter 4:5-6; Luke 20:36-38; Matthew 17:1-4).

No resurrection to heaven was to take place until Christ’s return according to Paul. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) All were to “sleep” until Jesus came to gather them. Those long dead had not gone anywhere, nor would they be aware of how long they had been sleeping in their graves. But they were all resurrected from that time onward. Paul spoke of that time in 2 Corinthians 5 with a full understanding about what would happen, but not when it would take place. He addressed those with “the heavenly calling”. (Hebrews 3:1)

Click to expand...

Then those who were resurrected on the day of Christ's crucifixion, where did they go? Like Hebrews 9:27 declares, it is appointed to man only once to die, and then the judgment.

The 'asleep' idea is a metaphor, because those in Christ that have died are not to be seen as 'the dead'. The idea of the real 'dead' per God's Word is about those WITHOUT CHRIST. This is why Jesus said to let the dead bury the dead. Those who have died in Christ are NOT... sleeping it out in a casket in the ground. That is an old superstition of the orthodox Jews.

And you purposefully misrepresent 2 Corinthians 5 by Apostle Paul also. What Paul 'actually'... taught there was that IF our flesh body were suddenly dissolved, we still have another body not made with hands (present tense, now), eternal in the heavens, pointing to a SPIRIT BODY we also have, even right now. That also jives with what Lord Jesus taught in Matthew 10:28 to not fear those who can kill our flesh, but not our soul, but fear God Who can destroy both body (spiritual body) and soul in the future lake of fire (called the "second death", which is not a death of flesh).

Only after Christ’s return was there to be no need to “sleep” in death....then there was to be an instantaneous resurrection. In these “last days” Christ is already here directing his disciples through these perilous times and seeing to it that the preaching about “the good news of the Kingdom” is accomplished world wide. (Matthew 24:3-14; Matthew 28:19-20) Only when all the features of the “sign” that Jesus gave to indicate his “presence” at the beginning of “the time of the end” are fulfilled, will “the end” of this present world system in the hands of the devil, come.

Click to expand...

Really playing up that false sleep in the ground leaven doctrine of men, aren't you? Christ Jesus is not... already here, like you say. He is still sitting on the right hand of The Father in Heaven, still expecting.

That is not what the Bible teaches.
There is no teaching of an immortal soul anywhere in the Bible. Death is the cessation of life, not a continuation of it. Adam was not told that he would go to heaven or hell, but simply that he would go back to the dust from which he was created. There is no “soul” that departs from the body because an animated soul is one that breathes. ....

Click to expand...

That's a bunch of baloney!

Even in Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 by Solomon, he showed that at flesh death we have TWO parts, our flesh goes back to the ground where it came from, but our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. And that ain't simply about some natural force going back to God; it's about our soul with spirit body going back to God in the heavenly dimension. And Jesus showed two sides in Paradise where one can go (Luke 16).

In Matthew 10:28 Lord Jesus revealed that if our flesh is killed, our soul is not. So right there is direct proof of continued life after flesh death of our 'spirit'. We do not simply sleep in the ground!

Know what else Solomon showed in Ecclesiastes 12:5-7? He pointed to the idea of a "silver cord" that is severed at flesh death, and then the two parts go to their respective realms.

Aunty Jane said:

I used to, but after a deep study of the Bible ....

Click to expand...

Oh spare me, please, those 'I used to...", as if to say, "I used to be stupid like you, and then I actually studied what The Bible says...". No. You have NOT studied what God's Word actually says on this matter.

Since Jesus was Jewish, he would never have taught something that is not in the Bible.

Click to expand...

You are so funny!!! That crazy statement is actually suggesting that Jews can never lie! Lord Jesus was born of the tribe of Judah, that's true, but He definitely was not a 'Jew' in the sense of the Jew's religion. He rebuked the Jew's religion, so what does that tell you about Jews?

Would you care to post those NT scriptures so that we can examine them in context?

Click to expand...

In who's context, the context of Judaism's beliefs like you have pushed with your holding to their dead in the ground theories?

Since animals are also called “souls” in Genesis, do you believe that they live on after death as well?
Where do their souls go?

Click to expand...

Come on now. Where does God's Word teach that animals have souls like we have???

You don't even know what the 'soul' is, since you show you only stay in the Old Testament traditions of the orthodox Jews. It requires New Testament Book study to truly understand about our makeup God created us with. But in Genesis 6:3 He gave a huge hint that Adam was not just a flesh creation only.

And I have given you plenty of New Testament evidence in my post #131.

Something that Jane has said is partially true, and partially false. Her comment about the the soul not being immortal.

Let's start with this bible verse and note the part in red:


1 Tim 6:14 I charge you to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ;
1 Tim 6:15 and this will be made manifest at the proper time by the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1 Tim 6:16 who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

I believe this cannot be ignored, and it presents a key clue to understanding several things. Jesus alone has immortality.

First I'll just state what my meditations and studies have led me to:

The believers who are truly in Christ come into eternal life and have immortality due to Jesus giving it to them. Humans do not have immortality apart from Christ.

So the lost do not have immortality, while the saved do.

This then brings us to the next issue that Davy just addressed fairly adequately, but not complete enough, or far enough.

We must acknowledge the truth that 1 Timothy 6:16 states.

How then do we reconcile the lost souls not having immortality, while the passages that Davy quoted about the body dying but their spirits going on (or their spiritual body) rising?

There are in fact 1 or 2 passages that seem to contradict this conclusion, but allow me to explain:

Do the lost burn in the lake of fire for infinity? I hesitantly think the answer is "no". For these reasons:

1) Jesus alone has immortality. We just read 1 Tim 6:16
2) The saints obtain immortality as a gift due to believing in Christ in truth.
3) The lost will end up in the Lake of Fire where after some period of time, they lose their souls due to destruction.
4) This teaching by Jesus seems to agree with my point #3

Matt 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Thus, the soul and spiritual body that Davy quoted about (and did a good job), are going to be destroyed.
Thus they do not live in the Lake of Fire, but die there. Horrible as it is, they would then be living forever, and be immortal. This contradicts 1 Tim 6:16.

My arguments are in agreement with 1 Tim 6:16.

5) If people existed forever in the Lake of Fire, then they would not perish there, but live there. This contradicts what Jesus said about the lost who fail to repent:

Luke 13:3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

6) Lastly, I am well familiar with the 2 bits of scripture that seem to indicate the lost burning and suffering forever. They are:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Comment A: If we stick with what is written and try to reconcile all the above points, (I know this is a difficult verse) I look at the words "smoke of their torment", and wonder if that is not in fact, an actual observation of their soul being burned and the smoke of their disintegration is being registered.

Comment B: Difficult wording, but "they have no rest, day or night", might this be until they are no longer? Day and night UNTIL they are 100% perished?

Comment C: The term "forever and ever" can be found in another key passage where it is clearly NOT infinite. This passage:

Rev 19:2 for his judgments are true and just; for he has judged the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her immorality, and has avenged on her the blood of his servants."
Rev 19:3 Once more they cried out, "Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up forever and ever."

This passage is about the nation called "Mystery Babylon" which

Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning.
Rev 18:10 They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, "Alas! Alas! You great city, you mighty city, Babylon! For in a single hour your judgment has come."

Rev 18:17 In one hour all this wealth has been laid waste." And all shipmasters and seafaring men, sailors and all whose trade is on the sea, stood far off
Rev 18:18 and cried out as they saw the smoke of her burning, "What city was like the great city?"

Comment D: We all know that the nation (Mystery Babylon, The Great Whore, The Great City that has dominion over the kings of the earth - all 3 titles are spoken of this nation in Revelation chapter 17) is on earth, and even if the nation is ultimately destroyed by nuclear weapons, the fire from that burning is finite. Even the ½-life of atomic fission is finite. So that the term "forever and ever" is poetic language.

Also, since there is going to be a new heaven and a new earth, The Great City/Great Whore cannot burn forever and ever into infinity. It's poetic language.

Comment E: And since it is poetic language, we now have a basis to reevaluate the language used in Revelation 14:11.

We are left with this:

Mark 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,
Mark 9:48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

Comment F: This is the most difficult verse. And makes me wonder if everything I just wrote above is kicked on its ear. But if what I wrote from the start is in fact true, then we have to evaluate this verse about the worm not dying, in the same way that the "smoke of their burning goes up forever and ever."


So there you have it. My attempt at reconciling several things that have caused division when both sides seem to have support from the same bible.

NewMusic said:

Something that Jane has said is partially true, and partially false. Her comment about the the soul not being immortal.

Click to expand...

She doesn't understand that either, because those on the false 'dead in the ground' theory of the Jews think our soul is part of our material flesh. It is not, which Matthew 10:28 and 2 Corinthians 5 easily reveals, and Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 does reveal also.

What those on the false 'dead in the ground' theory of men also do not know, is this...

IF... our soul is only a byproduct of our flesh, then when our flesh body dies, we are NO MORE! It would be like 'we' as persons never ever existed, and there would be nothing to resurrect! Why? Because our flesh decays and goes back to the earthly elements where it... came from. And I don't know of any souls screeching within the good ole' earth's soil when farmers plow it!

Might as well say that believing that we are literally asleep in the ground when our flesh dies is like being a primitive pagan, because those are the kind of ideas they have.

Aunty Jane said:

The other question is....did Jesus go anywhere that day? Or was he in his tomb for three days awaiting his resurrection as he said he would be?
He actually remained on earth for 40 days before ascending to his Father. So it was impossible for this thief to be “with Jesus in heaven” if Jesus was not there himself?

There is so much that Christendom’s adherents accept without question.....but we should question everything.

Click to expand...

Jane, some of the things you write are valid and some are not. Your recognizing the same evils in modern day religious organizations as the Pharisees of today, is a valid remark.

I don't have time to go through several of the things I have just read of yours on this web page, but I'll take the time to address this particular "question" you ask, rhetorically I assume, which I highlighted in red above.

Did Jesus go anywhere after he breathed His last on the cross? Am I right in thinking that you are saying Jesus remained in His tomb for 3 days and 3 nights?

If I'm reading you correctly, Jesus said this:

Matt 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. RSV, and worded the same in every translation I have access to.

So "Yes", Jesus went somewhere. Into the heart of the earth, and there suffered the full wrath of God for the sins of all humanity for all time.

I'm convinced Jesus suffered the full penalty of all sin committed in the world for all time which is why this verse is so fearful:

Hebrews 4:13 And before him no creature is hidden, but all are open and laid bare to the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

The blasphemous, irreligious, sacrilegious, sadists, malicious, evil, will stand before the Lord Jesus who paid the full penalty for their evil, wicked sins, and see that this One, the One with Whom they have to do, Who paid the full ransom price to redeem their souls and bring them into the Father's joy, and how He paid this price for them, but they continued in their sacrilege and blasphemy, etc.

It makes Jesus their Judge all the more relevant and beyond comprehension, what Jesus did for these unrepentant people, that now stand before Him and see the One with Whom they have to do.

From a narrative account, which I believe to be true, it is most remarkable and to further Jesus' glory and unfathomable cost that He paid which is why He is just to be their judge, and why all heaven cries "Glory, Glory, Glory to Him.

Rev 4:8 And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!"
Rev 4:9 And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives for ever and ever,
Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever; they cast their crowns before the throne, singing,
Rev 4:11 "Worthy art thou, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for thou didst create all things, and by thy will they existed and were created."


Jesus did indeed go somewhere. He went into the heart (center) of the earth and scientists, without realizing what they were giving testimony to, have told the world that the center of the earth is magma, and extraordinarily hot.

One more comment, since I read something you wrote along this topic:

Because the lost go to hell BEFORE the great white throne judgment where then the lost will be cast into the Lake of Fire, therefore the Rich Man was indeed in hell inside the earth (I believe that is where hell is located) and Lazarus was in a place also in the earth that is protected from that hell.

The dialogue between the rich man and Abraham was literal. I believe this.

The souls who were living by faith in the Old testament, looking forward to their Redeemer, were in Abraham's bosom and they saw and heard their Messiah when they witnessed Him go into the heart of the earth to pay the ransom. I believe this.

I will be forever grateful and beyond tears of gratitude for what Jesus has done for me, and for all.

Marty fox said:

Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Some Christians think that this is in our future but I believe that the bible shows us that it happened on the day of Jesus accention and it was the same time as Revelation 12:5-10


5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.

Notice that in both sets of verses that Jesus receives His authority and power that shows that they happened at the same time.

Hebrews 10:12-13 confirms the timing of this when Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Father when He presented Himself to the Father as our one time sacrificial Lamb.

12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool.

And when did Jesus say that He would sit at the right hand of the Father?

Matthew 26:63-64
63 But Jesus remained silent.

The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Yes after His death and resurrection

Click to expand...

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Therefore, there is no such timeline of events, except as they are revealed into the darkness of this world. As such, if the vision was manifest to Israel at the coming of Christ (for He said that it has come upon them), it was then repeated after His resurrection also...and is again repeated every time one comes to the full knowledge of Christ.

For those who look to the future, for them it is as they say, in the future.

Aunty Jane said:

The parable applied to the people of Jesus day and the same applies to today....the leadership of Christendom has done exactly the same thing as the Pharisees did. I believe that Jesus is again leading the 'lost sheep' out of a horribly corrupted and divided religious system.

Matthew 15:7-9....Jesus said of the Pharisees....
"You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”
It applies equally today....we still have those who behave like the Pharisees.

The fact that you have not addressed a single thing I said but just waved it all away in preference to your own view does not surprise me. I find that those in Christendom blindly accept what they are told without doing any decent research of their own.

Your reply confirms that you have no interest in doing that and I understand your position as I was once there myself.....but my questions never got satisfying, Bible based answers, so I studied the Bible myself but with the help of teachers who did understand the true meanings of what Jesus taught, I learned a lot. I learned to do thorough research. The truth as presented in the Bible is described as 'buried' or 'hidden' treasure, so some digging is required because its not just lying on the surface for lazy people to pick up and put it in their pocket.

We have to get out the shovel and dig for that truth like our lives depend on it....because it does.

Click to expand...

Why would I address the way you address my post and not the content of the thread itself?

You claim to have dug deep, and still it is your opinion that creates a post. You explained how the first century readers would interpret, use their own opinion, to understand what Jesus was saying. Do you not think that I took my points from the entire body of Scripture, and not their culture? You complain I was not using Scripture. Neither were you, as you were reverting to the culture of the first century. Using culture to interpret Scripture, is using opinion and not other Scriptures.

Giving a post about first century culture is interesting and probably took a lot of study. I never even said you were wrong. I said it was still just human opinion.

Aunty Jane said:

Jesus was not saying that the thief would be 'with him in heaven that day' because Jesus did not go anywhere for three days. And after his resurrection, he stayed on earth for 40 days to encourage his disciples for the hard road ahead.

To interpret it otherwise is to demonstrate that there is no grasp of the big picture......which is painted by the whole Bible not just snatches of it. No part of a human survives death. Resurrection is a restoration of life, not a continuation of it.
Christendom has fallen for the devil's first lie...."you surely will not die".....

Click to expand...

So you deny God was the Atonement?

Was Jesus just a man?

The thief was in Paradise that day, because it was God that told him that on the Cross.

Here is your Scripture Genesis 22:8

"And Abraham said, My son, God will provide Himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together."

God Himself paid the sacrifice of the Cross. Abraham prophecied about that very moment when God told the thief he would be able to enter forbidden Paradise that Adam was banned from. You just showed the "surface of the Cross", the body of Jesus, that you claimed went "no where". You claim to dig deep, no?

Do you even know what makes a fallen human that you describe, "ceases to exist"? The soul is not our human part. The soul is who we are. The soul that dies is the state of being in the Lake of Fire, the second death. Our humanity is the dead corruptible body we use to experience life with. It is dead in sin. This body and nature has been dead since Adam took a bite and physically died. That physical death gave him a corruptible body that would decay and demand we sin against God on a continuous basis. That is our humanity.

All we like sheep have gone astray. There is none who does good. We are all sinners. Our righteousness is just filthy rags. For as by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin, so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Aunty Jane said:

I used to, but after a deep study of the Bible I came to see that this is a Platonic Greek idea that influenced both apostate Judaism and Christendom.
The ancient Jews did not believe in an immortal soul because that makes the resurrection redundant.
Resurrection is what Jesus did to Lazarus....whom Jesus said was “sleeping”. (John 11:11-15)
Adam was not told that he would live on after his death, only that he would die and return to the dust.

Since Jesus was Jewish, he would never have taught something that is not in the Bible.


Would you care to post those NT scriptures so that we can examine them in context?

Since animals are also called “souls” in Genesis, do you believe that they live on after death as well?
Where do their souls go?

Click to expand...

Would you care to post all these OT verses that you claim exist?