Is this a prophetic fulfillment? Fig tree prophecy

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marks

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Revelation 12:15-16 KJV
15) And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16) And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Fun Facts!

Did you know?

Jews fleeing Jerusalem and Judea, east into the wilderness, find themselves having to cross the Jordan Rift Valley, containing the lowest elevation on earth, and is a deep rift in the crust.

A project has been considered, and perhaps by this time begun, to channel sea water from the Mediterranian to the Dead Sea to restore it's water level.

The dead Sea itself plunges steeply to a 1000 foot depth, and is 1400 feet below sea level, demonstrating the contour of this rift.

During a mass exodus from Jerusalem and Judea, it's possible such a channel as they are talking about could be diverted to flood the Jordan Valley, and trap the fleeing Jews.

During the earthquakes prophesied for that time, it would be entirely possible that this rift could open and swallow any amount of water being diverted.

"Mouth" in Scripture has various meanings, "Who made man's mouth", "the mouth of the sword".

While it can be fascinating to puzzle over what these things may mean, what if they mean exactly what they say?

Much love!
 
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David H.

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but then you still promote views that conflict with said straightforward readings.

How is my view in conflict with the straightforward reading of the text? Jesus says this is a parable, Parables contain the mysteries of the Kingdom as Per Jesus own words which must be Spiritually discerned. The fig tree in scripture is a symbol of Israel, and Judah in Particular, when Jesus cursed the fig tree it was also symbolic of the nation being cast aside that the Gospel may be brought to the gentiles, and that fig tree putting forth leaves and fruit a sign of its restoration.... this should make you rejoice.

 

David H.

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"Mouth" in Scripture has various meanings, "Who made man's mouth", "the mouth of the sword".

While it can be fascinating to puzzle over what these things may mean, what if they mean exactly what they say?

Yes this is a possibility.... My view is that the flood comes out of the serpent's mouth, meaning a flood of words to throw doubt and blaspheme the Word of God. The Earth swallowing those words are proofs of the veracity of scripture coming to light.... archeological proofs, 2000 year old fig trees coming to life, The dead sea scrolls, etc.
 

David H.

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Are you so sure? Do you mean apart from the revelation of the Holy Spirit? I don't think so. I think you can read along a narrative, you can understand that Jesus walked on water, though maybe not believe it, or that Paul wrote to the Roman people, but you'll never understand the teachings of the Bible without Him. You can read the words, but you won't understand them.

The Holy Spirit will not, I do not think, tell the children of God anything ever that conflicts with what He wrote in His Book.

Any time, any time, I don't care when, where, who, what, whatever, Anytime someone says of a verse, or treats it according, "It SAYS this, but it MEANS that", I know that's not true. In every instance.

In the Parable of the Fig tree, and in Luke, the Parable of all the trues, the parable is given as a simile, and is explained by Jesus. Therefore, that's what it is, and that's what it means. In the straightforward reading of the passage, this is a parable teaching that in the same way that you can see the signs of the seasons, so also you will be able to see the signs of the times.

Was Paul then "barking up the wrong tree" when he wrote:

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:9-11)
 

marks

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this should make you rejoice.
I rejoice in truth.

How many people have espoused a "fig tree generation", and then have had to change their numbers, and all that.

I find a fulfillment in the establishment of Isreal in 1948, but not from a misinterpretation of Jesus' parable, but from Ezekiel's prophecy, and the terms of their covenant with God. The return of sovereignty to Israel was a matter of course after the requirements of the covenant in Leviticus were met. And that happened in 1948.

The budding, the putting forth leaves, people look at that, and think, OH! The budding must be 1948, and the putting forth leaves 1967! A generation is 40 years, so, Jesus comes in 1988! 88 Reasons! No, must be from 1967, so He's coming 2007! Um . . . , no, a generation is 20 years, 40 years, 70, 80, 100, 120, people make their cases for all those. The last person alive who was alive in 1948, that gives us maybe another 30-40 years and all us making predictions may be dead by then, convenient!

And all based on things the Bible neither says nor implies.

No, this kind of thing doesn't do much for me.

But when God says, These are the years for Israel, and for Judah, He gives us some hard numbers, and those numbers lead us to 1948, when Israel was given back it's self-rule. And seeing Scripture fulfilled, yes, I rejoice!

Much love!
 
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marks

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Was Paul then "barking up the wrong tree" when he wrote:

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:9-11)
What was Paul talking about there? He says.

Do you take this as license to declare whatever you want to be allegorical or something? Paul said what he was talking about. Do you know what that was? What God hath prepared?

The answer only requires a few words.

And again, that Paul, or Matthew, or another Bible writer shows a previously unseen meaning to a passage from the OT, for instance, that carries with it Biblical Authority, and we can know it is real.

Some one now choosing a verse, and applying to form some doctrine outside of it's given meaning, is making things up in my opinion. And unless you can support your ideas by what the Bible says, and not just, "I know in my heart because God told me even though you can't really find it in the Bible", I leave it between you and God on that, but do not accept your authority as I do the Bible's.

When it comes to, Is this a parable about understanding the signs of the seasons and the times, that's what it is, and not a timeline prophecy of date setting. We actually have some of those, and should keep that in mind.

Let each thing be what God said, and not something else.

What you are removing from the passage is Jesus' promise to the Jews that they would not be completely destroyed before He returned and stopped the killing. This generation . . . the only "generation" that can be "this" to Jesus while likewise being present at the end of the age is a people group, and in this case the Jews.

In saying "this generation" and not "that generation" (Greek is very particular, very precise, remember), that signifies a people present with Jesus in His day. No getting around that. It's not like our sloppy speech when is say, "this generation, that sees flying cars, will have more options of where to go".

Koine Greek isn't tolerant of that. If you means something that is near you, present with you, "this". If you mean something not present, not near, "that".

Somehow this kind of understanding doesn't appeal to you, you label it "non-spiritual", but that's what Jesus said. To reject it is to reject His Words. His promise to His Chosen nation to rescue them from utter destruction.

Something well attested to in the Bible. Meanwhile, what did Jesus say about His coming? He'll come at a time you don't expect.

Much love!
 
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marks

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What if the Bible actually means exactly what it says?
 

Stumpmaster

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Camping's theories were Just that, theories. He based his eschatology on endless calculations from scripture... in other words he was applying human logic and intellect to the extreme to interpret the Word of God,
Hang on, are you saying human logic causes date setting? Aren't you guilty of setting dates?

Human logic is not a bad thing, it is human fallibility that is the problem and boy do date setters and deeper meaningists manifest that.
 
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David H.

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Hang on, are you saying human logic causes date setting? Aren't you guilty of setting dates?

Human logic is not a bad thing, it is human fallibility that is the problem and boy do date setters and deeper meaningists manifest that.

Faith in Human understanding is a bad thing especially when it quenches the Spirit and makes the believer Unable to learn the mysteries of the Kingdom.

As For date setting.... When I started to study prophecy earnestly, I Was guilty of date setting.... this was a product of my own unsound faith in Human reason, that I thought I could by deduction and reasoning and calculation figure out when these the end will be.... the heart was right as I yearned for His return, But the means and methods were not. I Can still tell you why I think 2027 is a significant year prophetically from all those calculations, But I also Know that no man knows the day or the hour. What I learned from all that date setting was that my knowledge was incapable of grasping the mind of God, and that I needed the Spirit to teach me. So Yes, it is the Hubris of man in his mental abilities that leads to date setting, and I am sure Camping realized that when his dates failed, and hopefully repented as did I.

The Mind of man is a deceiver, self-deception stems from the mind of man. That is why I quoted the verse to you 1 Corinthians when you said "wierd logic".

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. (1 Corinthians 3:18-20)

So anyway, my knowledge of where date setting comes from and why it is flawed comes from personal experience, and I can assure you it comes from the mind of man trying to figure out God and thinking that he can do so by his intellect, just like fundamentalists think they have all of doctrine figured out and the meaning of the text (textualism) by their theological methodology. One day, you too will see how you are no different than Camping or any other date setter in your whole approach to the Word of God, along with @marks who use the same methodology that Camping used. You see Camping was a fundamentalist and most date setters are. That is why am constantly pushing for people to be Holy Spirit taught as opposed to scholarship taught. It is a whole different mindset that is required to be Holy Spirit taught, and that is the mindset Ezekiel who said: "Lord thou Knowest" when asked if those dry bones could live.
 

David H.

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Do you take this as license to declare whatever you want to be allegorical or something? Paul said what he was talking about. Do you know what that was? What God hath prepared?

The Spirit of reveals to us the deep things of God. You will find this throughout the New Testament in the writings of the apostles, For Example, Paul's Epiphany in Romans 11, The Mysteries revealed to Paul while he was being Holy Spirit taught in Arabia for three years before his ministry. He even has a prayer for this divine revelation which he prays over the Ephesian church (Ephesians 1:17-23) This never stopped, and you too can pray this prayer and be Holy Spirit taught. You will know the difference then about who is being taught by the Spirit and who is not. That is the Beauty of this, there is unity of the Spirit to be had, Being of one accord.
 

Stumpmaster

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One day, you too will see how you are no different than Camping or any other date setter in your whole approach to the Word of God, along with @marks who use the same methodology that Camping used.
Your opinions smack of elitist patronising, but I forgive you.
1Th 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
 
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David H.

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Your opinions smack of elitist patronising, but I forgive you.
1Th 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Whatever you feel, the facts are the facts, date setters come from the fundamentalist wing of faith and are for the most using the same literalist theological methods that fundamentalist use on steroids. When I repented and tried to correct some of those date setters I partook with of their errors I was literally labelled a "son of Satan" by them. No different than what you and @marks try to paint me as here.

Have you tested the Spirit in me? No.
 

marks

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Whatever you feel, the facts are the facts, date setters come from the fundamentalist wing of faith and are for the most using the same literalist theological methods that fundamentalist use on steroids. When I repented and tried to correct some of those date setters I partook with of their errors I was literally labelled a "son of Satan" by them. No different than what you and @marks try to paint me as here.

Have you tested the Spirit in me? No.

Simply stated, I'm actually arguing against your date setting.

You've taken a parable, treated it as an ambiguous prophecy, filled in the details, and declared a timeline. Fundamentalist, whatever labels you want to toss around, you've got the timeline. Own it.

And no, I'm not labeling you a "son of Satan". This IS actually different. I'm showing you how this conflicts with the Bible.

And once again, you leave the topic, to talk about the people you are discussing it with. And to say what I'm saying is like calling you the "son of Satan"?

Spare me the dramatics!

Much love!
 

marks

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Hang on, are you saying human logic causes date setting? Aren't you guilty of setting dates?

Human logic is not a bad thing, it is human fallibility that is the problem and boy do date setters and deeper meaningists manifest that.
Doing the very thing you condemn in others. Hm.
 

marks

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The Spirit of reveals to us the deep things of God. You will find this throughout the New Testament in the writings of the apostles, For Example, Paul's Epiphany in Romans 11, The Mysteries revealed to Paul while he was being Holy Spirit taught in Arabia for three years before his ministry. He even has a prayer for this divine revelation which he prays over the Ephesian church (Ephesians 1:17-23) This never stopped, and you too can pray this prayer and be Holy Spirit taught. You will know the difference then about who is being taught by the Spirit and who is not. That is the Beauty of this, there is unity of the Spirit to be had, Being of one accord.
Yes . . . of course . . . this is elementary. Christianity 101.

Here's the "rest of the story". The Holy Spirit will Never "show you" something Not Taught in the Bible. That's how you will know for certain it's Him. You'll realize amazing and life changing truths, things you've never seen before, and you will realize that they were there all along, right there in those Words, only, you didn't understand them. But your understanding will NEVER be different from what those words are.

You suppose that because I don't claim "Holy Spirit Revelation", and only point to the words of the Bible, that I'm not "Spirit taught". The truth of the matter is, I'm not going to try to present to you, "Here is how the Holy Spirit revealed the truth of this passage to me", I'm going to just present the truth of the passage.

It's like James, you say you have faith and I have works. You say you have the Spirit and I have the text. Point to the teaching of the Spirit, and I'll show the teaching of the Spirit from the text. That I can show the meaning of the text shows I have the Holy Spirit. And I can show the meaning from the text.

This is more, not less.

Much love!
 

marks

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Your opinions smack of elitist patronising, but I forgive you.
1Th 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
We all need time to grow!

Much love!
 

David H.

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Simply stated, I'm actually arguing against your date setting.

You've taken a parable, treated it as an ambiguous prophecy, filled in the details, and declared a timeline. Fundamentalist, whatever labels you want to toss around, you've got the timeline. Own it.

And no, I'm not labeling you a "son of Satan". This IS actually different. I'm showing you how this conflicts with the Bible.

And once again, you leave the topic, to talk about the people you are discussing it with. And to say what I'm saying is like calling you the "son of Satan"?

Spare me the dramatics!

I Am not date setting in this post, merely pointing to a sign of his soon coming, a Prophetic fulfillment from scripture, No different than Israel becoming a nation was a prophetic fulfillment.

"Son of Satan" Or false Prophet are one in the same. From your position of Intellectual arrogance you judge others.... this is your podium of pride from which you gaze down on others saying, "thank God I am not like the Publican" (Luke 18:9-14)
 

marks

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I Am not date setting in this post, merely pointing to a sign of his soon coming, a Prophetic fulfillment from scripture, No different than Israel becoming a nation was a prophetic fulfillment.
You are claiming the "this generation" thing.

Much love!
 

David H.

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Here's the "rest of the story". The Holy Spirit will Never "show you" something Not Taught in the Bible.

This is textualism in a nutshell...
Show me the scripture for this statement..... I have shown you scriptures saying exactly the opposite, that the Spirit teaches us the hidden things of God (1 Corinthians 2:9-11). John wrote No book could contain the teachings of Jesus (John 21:25).... Jesus said He had many more things to teach them but they could not bear them now (John 16:12).... When the Spirit of truth shall come he will guide you into all truth (John 15:26, John 16:13).

Do You deny these scriptures?