Eternal Security

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Ferris Bueller

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The "spirit born of Spirit" previously existed?
Yeah. That's your human spirit. You've always had that, from birth. The new Spirit you receive is the Holy Spirit who moves into the temple of your body and is united with your spirit, cleansing you and breaking the bond your spirit had with the flesh so you could be joined to Christ through union with the Holy Spirit (Romans 7:1-6).
 

Ferris Bueller

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What was begotten from God, in that case? A pre-existent being?
Yes, your human spirit. The spirit that came into existence at birth.
To use the analogy of being a son, God adopted you into his family. In the analogy of a marriage you were joined to Christ as a wife. Both accomplished by the Holy Spirit coming into your body and uniting himself with your spirit.

Wouldn't that being have been corrupted by sin, having not yet been justified?
Yes.
That's why you need to be divorced first before you can be married to Christ, and adopted out of the family of the devil to become a part of the family of God. We call that 'getting saved'. Your human spirit, the one you've had, and been, since birth, gets joined to the Spirit of God in salvation. You do not become a new entity, like a baby being born where one did not exist before. You become a new and different person by virtue of the justifying and cleansing power of the Holy Spirit. You get a new mindset. And so you are new that way.
 
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marks

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Yes, your human spirit. The spirit that came into existence at birth.

To confirm what you're saying here, then, "that which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit", both of these births refer to your natal birth?

What is being "born again"? Born from above? What does that mean to you, if not a birth?

Much love!
 

marks

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That's why you need to be divorced first before you can be married to Christ, and adopted out of the family of the devil to become a part of the family of God. We call that 'getting saved'. Your human spirit, the one you've had, and been, since birth, gets joined to the Spirit of God in salvation. You do not become a new entity, like a baby being born where one did not exist before. You become a new and different person by virtue of the justifying and cleansing power of the Holy Spirit. You get a new mindset. And so you are new that way.
I think I've suddenly zeroed in on how you interpret the Scriptures. This is very enlightening. Thank you!

I think I put a lot more substance behind the words said. It seems that you treat these as some sort of loose jargo, while I treat it as specific speech intended to be extremely accurate.

So where Jesus said, You must be born again, to you, that means, you have to be reformed by proximity to God, while to me, it means you have to have a second birth.

Much love!
 

Ferris Bueller

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What is being "born again"? Born from above? What does that mean to you, if not a birth?
It means newness of life (Romans 6:4).
Newness of life that comes from God's Spirit sent from above.
It's not a literal birth of a spirit that did not exist before.

Born again is referring to life being birthed in you again.
The first time was when you were brought into existence and God breathed your life, your spirit, into existence (Genesis 2:7).
The second time is when the life of his Holy Spirit came into your body.
 

Ferris Bueller

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To confirm what you're saying here, then, "that which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit", both of these births refer to your natal birth?
No. Born of flesh means, in simple terms, mans effort to birth a son of God.
The fleshly effort of the law births a natural, un-spiritual, son of God (one who does not inherit the blessing, like Esau).
Being born from above through faith births a spiritual son of God (one who does inherit the blessing, like Jacob).
 

marks

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It means newness of life (Romans 6:4).
Newness of life that comes from God's Spirit sent from above.
It's not a literal birth of a spirit that did not exist before.

Born again is referring to life being birthed in you again.
The first time was when you were brought into existence and God breathed your life, your spirit, into existence.
The second time is when the life of his Holy Spirit came into your body.
This goes a long way towards understanding your views, and how you form them.

This is how you think someone who is "born again" can be "unborn again", because you don't see this as a real birth, rather, a reformation of the previous birthing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly, you are one who does not see the corruption of the flesh as being actual damage to the physical body, is that right? That you see a "corrupt flesh nature" that is separate from the body?

Much love!
 

marks

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No. Born of flesh means, in simple terms, mans effort to birth a son of God.
What? I'm not following you here.

That which is born of flesh is flesh, just as God said in Genesis, everything produce according to it's own kind. How does "that which is born of flesh is flesh", and "that which is born of Spirit is spirit", and "that's why I said you must be born again", how do we get that being born of flesh is trying to be spirit born?

But again, this would go to how we interpret it.

I understand that "you must be born again" means, having been born once, from my parents, I now must be born another time.

When I read, "that which is born of flesh is flesh", I understand it to mean that flesh reproduces it's like kind, which is according to God's order of things. And the same for "that which is born of Spirit it spirit". It' also written, "God is Spirit", therefore, to be born from God is to be spirit born of Spirit, the spirit child of God, alive in the heavenlies. Hid with Christ in God. A real being that did not exist until being born from God.

I'm understanding that to you this language describes something that to you represents birth or seems symbolic of birth, but doesn't actually mean birth.

This is what I endlessly find. That when I have a disagreement with someone over Scripture, it will nearly always come down to where there is a verse where one or the other will say, "well, it SAYS birth, but what it really means is . . ."

Much love!
 
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GodsGrace

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Whose faith?

Galatians 2:16 KJV
16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

We've believed "in" Christ, that we might be justified by the faith "of" Christ.
Hey marks,
You ARE a one trick pony!
I've heard this before ... that we are kept by the faith OF Jesus.

Here again, you take ONCE VERSE and create an entire teaching around it.


Galatians 2:20 KJV
20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

We live by the faith "of" Christ. This is translating the Genetive Case, which shows origin or possession. This faith that comes from Christ, possessed by Christ.

You say this faith that COMES FROM CHRIST...
Please answer this question since I'm never sure what a person means....
Are you saved by faith?
Is it YOUR faith by which you are saved?

Thanks.

1 Peter 1:5 KJV
5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Faith is God's power working in us to keep us.[/QUOTE]
I believe every Christian is in agreement with the above.
It is through the power of God in the Person of the Holy Spirit that accompanies us and keeps us and empowers us when we need it.
Of course, whether we obey Him or not is another matter.

1Peter 1:5 states that we are kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH unto salvation.

This is through OUR own faith.
Ephesians 2:8 We are saved by God's grace through the instrument of faith...the faith must be ours. Just as Abraham was saved by faith, HIS faith, so is everyone saved by faith...their own faith.

John 8:24
24“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

(believing is having faith...WE must individually believe ourselves)

Romans 10:17
Faith comes from hearing the Word of God.

Mark 11:22
And Jesus answered them...Have faith in God...

(this is a command)

James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?

If you keep reading 1 Peter it states:

1 Peter 1:9
obtaining as the outcome OF YOUR faith, the salvation of your souls.

It is our faith that saves us.



What does it mean to be justified? That the Scorekeeper wiped clean the scoreboard, but has his cribsheet notes of what our sins were, so he can put them back up?

Or is it a new live in Christ, sharing His righteousness?

Much love!

The storekeeper wiped clean the scoreboard...but we continue to sin and are required to ask forgiveness as in 1 John 1 and 2.

Anyway, it's not our sins that will cause our downfall, but, as I've stated before, it's our decision to leave the protecting arms of our Lord.
 

Ferris Bueller

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I think I put a lot more substance behind the words said. It seems that you treat these as some sort of loose jargo
Yes, and no.
The union of Christ's Spirit with ours is stated in 1 Corinthians 6:17.

"he who unites himself with the Lord is one with Him in spirit."

And that union is often spoken of in scripture using loose analogies, like sonship and marriage, depending on which aspect of our relationship with God through Christ the Bible wants to emphasize. Sometimes our union with Christ's Spirit is like that of a father to his son. Sometimes it's like a man to his wife. Sometimes it's even like a Father to his daughter. The Bible uses the analogy that illustrates the point being spoken about.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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What? I'm not following you here.

That which is born of flesh is flesh, just as God said in Genesis, everything produce according to it's own kind. How does "that which is born of flesh is flesh", and "that which is born of Spirit is spirit", and "that's why I said you must be born again", how do we get that being born of flesh is trying to be spirit born?

Much love!
I'll have to explain it when I get home, lol.
It's not complicated or long. It just takes time to articulate in simple terms.
I will do that tonight or tomorrow morning as time permits.

Food for thought until then, Paul refers to the two different sons being born from the old covenant, and from the new covenant. The son born of the old covenant is born of the fleshly effort of the law. While the son born of the new covenant is born as the result of a promise, via faith. The fleshly effort and devotion of keeping the law births natural, flesh men (not spiritual men), symbolized by the waters of John's baptism for repentance to the law prior to Christ. And so they are born of water. But the spiritual man is born of the Spirit from above through the way of faith in the promise.

Okay, I guess I don't have to wait till tonight to explain it. lol.
 
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marks

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I'll have to explain it when I get home, lol.
It's not complicated or long. It just takes time to articulate in simple terms.
I will do that tonight or tomorrow morning as time permits.
It's actually not necessary. Whatever you like.

Much love!
 

marks

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Is it YOUR faith by which you are saved?
This is Paul's way to explain this answer,

Galatians 2:16 KJV
16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This is translated "of" to show the Genentive Case being used, which signifies origin and/or possession. We have believed (lit.) into Jesus, and having believed "into Jesus Christ", we are justified by the faith OF Jesus Christ - His faith. Faith which He supplies.

This is how Peter can write, "we are kept by the power of God through faith". Our faith is God's power working in us.

1 Corinthians 1:24 KJV
24) But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Much love!
 

marks

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This is through OUR own faith.
So you keep yourself saved by keeping believing. You keep yourself in God's good graces, so long as you do.

By who's faith are you justified, according to the Bible?

Much love!
 

marks

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John 8:24
24“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

(believing is having faith...WE must individually believe ourselves)
Having believed IN Jesus, we are justified by the faith OF Jesus. If you don't first believe IN Jesus, you won't be justified by the faith OF Jesus. But even so, having believed IN Jesus, we are justified by the faith OF Jesus.

You seem to deride that I repeat certain verses, and stick by their simple words, but what else should I do? I read what it says, and believe what it says. Nothing is going to change these simple truths, and none of the other Scriptures actually do conflict.

I've posted several to show that, but you haven't responded, so, what can I say?

Much love!
 

marks

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If you keep reading 1 Peter it states:

1 Peter 1:9
obtaining as the outcome OF YOUR faith, the salvation of your souls.

It is our faith that saves us.

It sounds like you think some of these verses mean that we are NOT justified by the faith that comes from Jesus, is that so?

Much love!