Was Jesus a spirit being before coming to earth as a human?

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Was Jesus a spirit being before coming to earth?


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David in NJ

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Transubstantiation is bogus, so is consubstantiation, however.

Communion is a solemn remembrance of His sacrifice of His flesh and blood.

In John 6 Jesus was speaking spiritually but let the crowd who only followed Him to get fed, think otherwise, so they’d leave, and only true followers remained.

Shalom Aleichem

CORRECT - No RCC sorcery here Friend.

i was referring to His words where HE declares Himself Eternal Life and equal with the Father which offends some here because they lack understanding.
 

David in NJ

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Exactly![/QUOTE

God never said: " .......the Word was a god."

God said: "Before Me no god was formed,and after Me none will come. Isaiah 43:10

God alone is the Savior: I, yes I, am the LORD,and there is no Savior but Me. Isaiah 43:11

CHRIST is LORD GOD SAVIOR = AMEN
 

post

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The Bible never refers to Jesus as the Almighty.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
 

post

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Jehovah is not Jesus, nor has He physically ever interacted with man.

Who wrestled with Jacob? What does scripture say?

Genesis 32:30
Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
 
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David in NJ

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The Bible never refers to Jesus as the Almighty Post. Since God sent His son, and Jesus His son is recorded in the Bible as the one who came, then God was not physically with us, rather His son was. Jehovah was with us just as the Bible states, He sent the provision for redemption. When Jehovah asked Abraham to sacrifice his only begotten son showing to His people what must take place, was Isaac Abraham? No Abraham was the father, Isaac was the son. Jehovah is not Jesus, nor has He physically ever interacted with man. The Holy Scriptures indicate otherwise, no man has seen God at any time.

The Scriptures, in FACT, declare Yehovah is Jesus as, in FACT, no one has seen God at any time.

No one has seen the Father except the One who is from God; only He has seen the Father. John6:46

Elohim (God) that walked with Adam & Eve in the Garden was the Yahshua, just a Scripture declares = John6:46

The LORD who wrestled with Jacob was not the Father but the Son just as Scripture declares = John 6:46

The LORD who appeared to Moses in the Fire/Bush that did not burn was the LORD = John 6:46

Yahshua(Jesus) is the LORD just as Scripture declares = John 6:46 , John 8:58 , Isaiah ch43 & ch44 and Acts ch1

The Scripture cannot lie but the false doctrines of jehovah witness, in FACT do.

REPENT and worship the Son who alone is the Savior of the World = Immanuel = God with us.

No one has seen the Father except the One who is from God; only He has seen the Father. John 6:46
Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I AM !” John 8:58
 
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ScottA

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Hi Scott, you are in line with what I am saying. Perhaps I am not always understandable, I try to be, but of course that is an impossibility with all of us as clearly seen from so many different understandings of Jesus' words.

Curtis stated that Jesus was God in the flesh, which is not accurate, Jesus is God's son whom God sent to the earth, He did not come Himself. God's law demands equal payment for what is lost, soul for soul applies here, and what a perfect example to send. God's firstborn human son lost life for mankind, and God sent His firstborn spirit son to redeem what His firstborn human son lost. Interesting isn't it Scott?
It does sound like you are saying that Jesus was not flesh at all, which of course is not true. Perhaps you might further explain what you mean.
 

Pierac

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Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

I might be able to help here?

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

There, you see, the Messiah is supposed to be God. Wrong! If we take a closer look at this verse you will see that it does not mean that at all. The phrase in question is Mighty God, and the proper understanding of Everlasting Father is a must. First, Mighty God.

Not all Bibles use the translation of Mighty for the Hebrew word gibbor. The Jewish translators of the Septuagint render it in the following manner, "The angel of great council." Angel meaning messenger. But we will address the ones that do just for argument's sake. First of all, we will take a close look at the Hebrew word that is translated as Mighty. Translators have used Mighty for theological reasons, (so they can tie it into other verses that God is referred to as mighty, and thus claim that the Messiah is supposed to be God).

The Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary defines this word as:
Gibbor – by impl. warrior, tyrant:- champion, chief, X excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), valiant man. Mighty is the eighth definition of this word.

The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon says of this word gibbor as it is used in Isaiah 9: 5:

Isaiah 9:5 - ref. Messiah, attribute of God especially as fighting for his people. This explanation doesn’t even mention Mighty.

According to these sources, gibbor as it is used in Isaiah 9:5 along with God means, a warrior king with the attributes of God. This is exactly who the Messiah is supposed to be. This definition agrees with the rest of the chapter in which Isaiah talks about how the Messiah will reign on David’s throne, and how he will rule with justice and righteousness forever because of the zeal of the LORD Almighty. Isaiah does not believe that the Messiah is supposed to be God, he distinguishes between them. He says how the Messiah will accomplish everything because of the zeal of the LORD Almighty. We can also compare this chapter to Isaiah 11 in which he is again speaking of the Messiah. In Isaiah 11: 1-3 he says how the Messiah will be from the root of Jesse, how the Spirit of the LORD will rest on him, and how he will delight in the fear of the LORD. Now, are we supposed to believe that the LORD will delight in the fear of Himself? Definitely not. Isaiah prophesying about the Messiah says:

Isaiah 49:5: "And I am made glorious in the sight of the LORD, and MY GOD is my strength."

From Isaiah 49:5 and 11:1-3 we can see that Isaiah understands the future Messiah to be a man on whom God's spirit will rest (which is the meaning of the word "Christ") who will delight in the fear of his God, the LORD. Isaiah does not consider the Messiah to be God in Isaiah 11:1-3 nor in Isaiah 49:5, and neither does he believe that in Isaiah 9: 5.

The definition of the Messiah as a warrior king with the attributes of God, is seen in Revelation 19: 11 where it reads:

"Then I saw heaven standing open and there was before me a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war."

Now we will look at some other translations to see how they have interpreted this verse.

The New English Bible says, "In battle God-like."

The New American Bible (which is a Catholic Bible, they invented the trinity) says, "God- Hero." It translates this verse in the following manner and has a note on this verse which is very interesting and enlightening. First the translation. It states: "They name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace."

This exegesis is in complete agreement with the definitions and Bible passage that we have just examined. Remember, this is the Catholic Church’s interpretation, I am sure that they would love to be able to say that according to this passage the Messiah is supposed to be God, but even they don’t.

For a better understanding of the term Father-Forever or Everlasting Father, (depending on your translation) one must understand that kings were considered to be fathers of their people. The Messiah is the King of Israel. I agree with the New American Bible’s explanation of Father- Forever in this verse.

We can also substantiate this definition by looking at another verse of the same writer in Isaiah 22: 20- 21:

"In that day I will summon my servant Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah."

Isaiah obviously does not mean that Eliakim is God the Father. In Isaiah 9:5 he means that the Messiah as king of the new Israel (the kingdom of God) will be like a father to his people forever.

This matches what I found using e-sword's net Bible...

Like I said earlier, we need to look at the scripture in question. What is the Book or Chapter about? What are the verses before and after saying?

You can buy the expanded e-sword edition of the Net Bible. Please do so as it’s loaded with extra data and variant readings. Just a note, the Net people believe in the trinity yet look how they handle this verse. Note the red numbers for reference to the comments. They did a good job of trying to be non-bias here.


Net Bible Isa 9:6 For a child has been15 born to us, son has been given to us. He shoulders Responsibility and is called:16 Extraordinary Strategist,17 Mighty God,18 Everlasting Father,19 Prince of Peace.20


17 Since Isa_11:2 points out that this king will receive the spirit of the Lord, which will enable him to counsel, it is possible to argue that the king's counsel is "extraordinary" because it finds its source in the divine spirit. (Anointed) Thus this title does not necessarily suggest that the ruler is deity

18 tn âÌÄáÌåÉø (gibbor) is probably an attributive adjective ("mighty God"), though one might translate "God is a warrior" or "God is mighty." Scholars have interpreted this title is two ways. A number of them have argued that the title portrays the king as God's representative on the battlefield, whom God empowers in a supernatural way (see J. H. Hayes and S. A. Irvine, Isaiah, 181-82). They contend that this sense seems more likely in the original context of the prophecy. They would suggest that having read the NT, we might in retrospect interpret this title as indicating the coming king's deity, but it is unlikely that Isaiah or his audience would have understood the title in such a bold way. Psa_45:6 addresses the Davidic king as "God" because he ruled and fought as God's representative on earth.

19 tn This title must not be taken in an anachronistic Trinitarian sense. (To do so would be theologically problematic, for the "Son" is the messianic king and is distinct in his person from God the "Father.") Rather, in its original context the title pictures the king as the protector of his people. For a similar use of "father" see Isa_22:21 and Job_29:16. This figurative, idiomatic use of "father" is not limited to the Bible. In a Phoenician inscription (ca. 850-800 B.C.) the ruler Kilamuwa declares: "To some I was a father, to others I was a mother." In another inscription (ca. 800 B.C.) the ruler Azitawadda boasts that the god Baal made him "a father and a mother" to his people. (See ANET 499-500.) The use of "everlasting" might suggest the deity of the king (as the one who has total control over eternity), but Isaiah and his audience may have understood the term as royal hyperbole emphasizing the king's long reign or enduring dynasty (for examples of such hyperbolic language used of the Davidic king, see 1Ki_1:31; Psa_21:4-6; Psa_61:6-7; Psa_72:5; Psa_72:17). The New Testament indicates that the hyperbolic language (as in the case of the title "Mighty God") is literally realized in the ultimate fulfillment of the prophecy, for Jesus will rule eternally.

20 tn This title pictures the king as one who establishes a safe socio-economic environment for his people. It hardly depicts him as a meek individual, for he establishes peace through military strength (as the preceding context and the first two royal titles indicate). His people experience safety and prosperity because their invincible king destroys their enemies. See Psalms 72 and 144 for parallels to these theme.

Also important to note are the words in the verse. You will note most of the translations read… “will be called” or “shall be called” This is more of a concept of agency than actually being. There is a big difference between being call something, as in(agency) and actually being. No translations ever read “He Is. ”

This verse is actually a great example of how a western mind can read a verse literally and come away with a completely wrong impression. The Hebraic back ground is needed to fully understand this verse as it was intended to be understood!

Paul
 
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post

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How do you people feel about spending all your time denouncing and denigrating Jesus?

Do you think you are doing God's will by attacking everyone who praises His name?

Wow
 
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ScottA

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I might be able to help here?

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

There, you see, the Messiah is supposed to be God. Wrong! If we take a closer look at this verse you will see that it does not mean that at all. The phrase in question is Mighty God, and the proper understanding of Everlasting Father is a must. First, Mighty God.

Not all Bibles use the translation of Mighty for the Hebrew word gibbor. The Jewish translators of the Septuagint render it in the following manner, "The angel of great council." Angel meaning messenger. But we will address the ones that do just for argument's sake. First of all, we will take a close look at the Hebrew word that is translated as Mighty. Translators have used Mighty for theological reasons, (so they can tie it into other verses that God is referred to as mighty, and thus claim that the Messiah is supposed to be God).

The Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary defines this word as:
Gibbor – by impl. warrior, tyrant:- champion, chief, X excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), valiant man. Mighty is the eighth definition of this word.

The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon says of this word gibbor as it is used in Isaiah 9: 5:

Isaiah 9:5 - ref. Messiah, attribute of God especially as fighting for his people. This explanation doesn’t even mention Mighty.

According to these sources, gibbor as it is used in Isaiah 9:5 along with God means, a warrior king with the attributes of God. This is exactly who the Messiah is supposed to be. This definition agrees with the rest of the chapter in which Isaiah talks about how the Messiah will reign on David’s throne, and how he will rule with justice and righteousness forever because of the zeal of the LORD Almighty. Isaiah does not believe that the Messiah is supposed to be God, he distinguishes between them. He says how the Messiah will accomplish everything because of the zeal of the LORD Almighty. We can also compare this chapter to Isaiah 11 in which he is again speaking of the Messiah. In Isaiah 11: 1-3 he says how the Messiah will be from the root of Jesse, how the Spirit of the LORD will rest on him, and how he will delight in the fear of the LORD. Now, are we supposed to believe that the LORD will delight in the fear of Himself? Definitely not. Isaiah prophesying about the Messiah says:

Isaiah 49:5: "And I am made glorious in the sight of the LORD, and MY GOD is my strength."

From Isaiah 49:5 and 11:1-3 we can see that Isaiah understands the future Messiah to be a man on whom God's spirit will rest (which is the meaning of the word "Christ") who will delight in the fear of his God, the LORD. Isaiah does not consider the Messiah to be God in Isaiah 11:1-3 nor in Isaiah 49:5, and neither does he believe that in Isaiah 9: 5.

The definition of the Messiah as a warrior king with the attributes of God, is seen in Revelation 19: 11 where it reads:

"Then I saw heaven standing open and there was before me a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war."

Now we will look at some other translations to see how they have interpreted this verse.

The New English Bible says, "In battle God-like."

The New American Bible (which is a Catholic Bible, they invented the trinity) says, "God- Hero." It translates this verse in the following manner and has a note on this verse which is very interesting and enlightening. First the translation. It states: "They name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace."

This exegesis is in complete agreement with the definitions and Bible passage that we have just examined. Remember, this is the Catholic Church’s interpretation, I am sure that they would love to be able to say that according to this passage the Messiah is supposed to be God, but even they don’t.

For a better understanding of the term Father-Forever or Everlasting Father, (depending on your translation) one must understand that kings were considered to be fathers of their people. The Messiah is the King of Israel. I agree with the New American Bible’s explanation of Father- Forever in this verse.

We can also substantiate this definition by looking at another verse of the same writer in Isaiah 22: 20- 21:

"In that day I will summon my servant Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah."

Isaiah obviously does not mean that Eliakim is God the Father. In Isaiah 9:5 he means that the Messiah as king of the new Israel (the kingdom of God) will be like a father to his people forever.

This matches what I found using e-sword's net Bible...

Like I said earlier, we need to look at the scripture in question. What is the Book or Chapter about? What are the verses before and after saying?

You can buy the expanded e-sword edition of the Net Bible. Please do so as it’s loaded with extra data and variant readings. Just a note, the Net people believe in the trinity yet look how they handle this verse. Note the red numbers for reference to the comments. They did a good job of trying to be non-bias here.


Net Bible Isa 9:6 For a child has been15 born to us, son has been given to us. He shoulders Responsibility and is called:16 Extraordinary Strategist,17 Mighty God,18 Everlasting Father,19 Prince of Peace.20


17 Since Isa_11...

Paul
:( sadly (let the reader understand) it is of little help to explain the historical and literary fine points of language that was not only confused by God himself, but clarified to only be spiritually discerned...according to the scriptures.

Here is that discernment:

Not only is Jesus God, he is One with God, and One. Moreover, we who are His are One with Him and God the Father. And moreover still, if we are One with Him/Them, for us (as it was with Paul) to live is Christ, and the words we speak are not our own, but His.

God is One.​

PS, Having said so, I see that you are fairly new here. By all means--please do not take this as any deterrent toward staying. We are all implicated in the errors of language use. By design.
 

post

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Not all Bibles use the translation of Mighty for the Hebrew word gibbor. The Jewish translators of the Septuagint render it in the following manner, "The angel of great council."

that is not an accurate statement.
what the LXX renders as 'angel of great council' is what the Masoretic text has as 'Wonderful, Counselor' tho 'angel' isn't even in the text.
the LXX omits 'MIGHTY GOD' and 'EVERLASTING FATHER' altogether.

much like our heretical friends here, the 70 pretended those words weren't in the Bible at all.

so it's not accurate to say they translated Isaih 9:6 differently. they either had a very different Hebrew version than the Hebrew versions we have today, or they simply deleted some words and added some more that were never there.
however, speaking to that point, the dead sea scrolls have a complete Isaiah -- and they read like the Masoretic text. they say, Jesus is Mighty God; Jesus is Everlasting Father. so it would appear the LXX enganged in some editing in this particular place, not 'translating differently'
 

post

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Just a note, the Net people believe in the trinity

do they?
and who are they?

here's an interesting article on the NET, which i do consider useful for the scope of the footnotes; that is, useful in the sense of containing a lot of information, but as far as whether that information is trustworthy or doctrinally/interpretaively correct, well - not any more than any commentary - and for the most part you are better off crossing out any and all commentary in any Bible you happen to be reading:

The NET Bible
 

keithr

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Is He King of Israel or not?

What does scripture say?
Who does scripture say the King of Israel is?
John 18:33-36 (WEB):
(33) Pilate therefore entered again into the Praetorium, called Jesus, and said to him, “Are you the King of the Jews?
(34) Jesus answered him, “Do you say this by yourself, or did others tell you about me?”
(35) Pilate answered, “I’m not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests delivered you to me. What have you done?”
(36) Jesus answered, “My Kingdom is not of this world. If my Kingdom were of this world, then my servants would fight, that I wouldn’t be delivered to the Jews. But now my Kingdom is not from here.”
 
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Robert Gwin

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God never said: " .......the Word was a god."

God said: "Before Me no god was formed,and after Me none will come. Isaiah 43:10

God alone is the Savior: I, yes I, am the LORD,and there is no Savior but Me. Isaiah 43:11

CHRIST is LORD GOD SAVIOR = AMEN

The Bible states the Word was a god at Jn 1:1 sir

There are a few saviors actually listed in the Bible, in print I counted 6. You are correct Jehovah is the final Savior, but He is worshipped through a channel both in the Law covenant, as well as the New covenant, the law of the Christ sir, as no one comes to Jehovah except through Jesus. You might note that the Bible in fact calls both of those individuals Savior.
 

Robert Gwin

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Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Yes Post, that verse is about Jesus, and he is in fact called The Mighty God, but the Bible uses the title Almighty God exclusively with Jehovah.
 

Robert Gwin

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Who wrestled with Jacob? What does scripture say?

Genesis 32:30
Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Do you believe the Bible contradicts itself Post?
(John 1:18) . . .No man has seen God at any time. . .

I would hope that you think not. So in an apparent contradiction as this, one needs to investigate further. Either one verse is wrong, or more logically we misunderstand what is stated. How can we rectify this? Reading the entire passage we see that the "man" was unidentified by name, although the man himself told Jacob he had contended with God, and Jacob said he saw God face to face, yet later in the Bible we see that event discussed again which explains the event in another way:
(Hosea 12:2-4) . . .Jehovah has a legal case against Judah; He will call for an accounting against Jacob according to his ways, And he will repay him according to his deeds. 3 In the womb he seized his brother by the heel, And with his vigor he contended with God. 4 He kept contending with an angel and prevailed. He wept and begged for his favor.”. . .
This passage identifies that man Jacob contended with to be an angel.

The Bible is a complicated book to say the least, and none of us know it fully, but sometimes through further research, or the help of others clarification on what seems to be a contradiction can be had.
 

Truther

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Do you have scriptural evidence to support your viewpoint?
I think Jesus was body, soul and human Spirit in the beginning with God.
He was pre-made to eventually replace the first Adam. God transcends time, and personally knew His son Jesus, making everything by, for and through him.
God was never left having to wait for Jesus to be born.
Even the sacrifices of Abel were made in MEMORIAL of the former sacrifice of Jesus before the foundation of the world(Rev 13:8).
 

Truther

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The human Jesus(God and Mary's son) visited the earth many times before he was born in our time(dimension).
 

Robert Gwin

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It does sound like you are saying that Jesus was not flesh at all, which of course is not true. Perhaps you might further explain what you mean.

How could you possibly get that from my written response Scott? To deny Jesus came in the flesh has all sorts of connotations. The Bible is quite clear sir: (John 1:14) . . .the Word became flesh and resided among us. . .
 
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