The Trinity

GodsGrace · Dec 5, 2021

Backlit said:
The Nicean Creed was formulated under the auspices of a pagan emperor who them persecuted and threw out the dissenters. The 'Catholic' church you speak of was in no way universal by the time of the 4th century. It was a name the bishops of Rome held on to to give the impression of originality, but there were earlier churches in existence long before Rome became prominent... Jerusalem, Antioch for example.

Jerusalem and Antioch were 2 of the most important of the 5 churches in that area of the world.
The others were: Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria.

All five were the Catholic Church.

If you can find another name, please do so.
This is simple history.

The purpose of the Creed was to forge a political unity and unite what remained of the empire under the pretense of spirituality.
Arius, a bishop whose core beliefs only come to us through the writings of those who opposed him, wasn't alone. And his teachings that converted an entire nation, the Ostrogoth, were converted by a missionary named Wulfila whose writings clearly support a non trinitarian mindset, but a pro divine deity of the Son, Jesus. So Catholicism wasn't the only shop in town.
And those Ostrogoths were declared Arian...barbarian... By the power that had them destroyed... The Catholic Church. Which suggests the Trinity debate for many was more about politics than spiritual truth.

You're right about the arian heresy.
The Catholic Church stopped many heresies or we would not be united today.
The Creeds were forged to make known to all what the church believed as doctrine.
This was true of all creeds...they were always to correct a heresy.

This does not make the Trinity political.
It was discussed many years before 325AD.

Do we not have one Goid and one Christ? Is there not one Spirit of grace, poured out upon us?
Clement of Rome 96AD
Clement of Rome was taught by Peter and Paul...mainly by Paul.
The church was not yet political at this time in history.

I have largely demonstrated that the Word, namely the Son, was always with the Father.
Wisdom, who is in Spirit, was present with Him before all creation.
Irenaeus 180AD
Irenaeus was taught by Polycarp, who was taught directly from John.

There's more should you require it.

GodsGrace · Dec 5, 2021

amadeus said:
Ultimately what does the Christian designation matter to God? It certainly matters not to me that people want to say that I am or that I am not a Christian... so long as I please God and finish my course on His side.

As far as men are concerned, the definition of the word, Christian, was already changing decades ago in this country as the U.S. constitutional protections were being changed and our religious freedoms eroded. It [the definition] is continuing to change in the wrong direction... God is unchanged.

Eventually the freedoms guaranteed will apply only to those people meeting legal definitions, which will have little to do with what is written in scripture. Those already fulling cooperating with the government and those willing to compromise or change to a similar cooperation may retain their constitutional guarantees for a while longer...?

What I'm saying is that the designation should mean something.

If I say I'm Muslim, it means something.
If I say I'm female, it means something.

We cannot make up our own meanings...
although this seems to be what we're doing these days.

Again, I'm not saying it matters to God (although it might)...
But it certainly matters to identify a Christian person.

Wrangler · Dec 5, 2021

GodsGrace said:
How is Jesus adopted if the Holy Spirit created Him?

The Father is Jesus’ Father.

I tend to leave the HOW to our all-powerful God. Scripture TELLS us that God selected Jesus.

Aunty Jane · Dec 5, 2021

Backlit said:
While I agree with you that they're are only inferences and assumptions with regards the Trinity as taught in the creeds, there is no inference nor any assumption regards the divinity of Christ, the only begotten Son of God.

Again, I believe that is getting “divinity” and “deity” confused. Christ can be divine without being God.

The term “theos” in the Greek scriptures is applied to all who have divine power. Jesus certainly had that by means of God’s spirit which came upon him at his baptism.
But satan is also called “theos” because his power (although misused like his free will) came from the one who created him.

Jesus said that Jehovah himself called the judges in Israel “gods” because of their divine authority.
Moses too was “god” to Pharaoh.....it’s a relative term in the ancient languages, but lost in the English translations. We see the word “God” (especially when capitalised) and assume only one thing.

As a Son, begotten, born of the Father, being the express image of the Father's person, character, and being, what else can Jesus be of not God Himself in the person of His Son?

You see, that this is an assumption....not directly expressed in any passage of the Bible. You made it like a mathematical equation.....God is not deducible by inference.
‘This’ plus ‘this’ doesn’t always mean ‘that’.....which is why we need a sound knowledge of what the entirety of scripture teaches....especially with regard to the person and nature of the Creator.

The very fact that Jehovah and Jesus use the terms “Father” and “Son” are important because if they were equals, that would make no sense. If the Son existed in heaven with the Father from “the beginning” then he has always been “the son” of his “Father”....that relationship did not change when Jesus came to earth to be born as a human child. If we do not understand the reason why that had to take place, then not much else will make sense.

If spirit beings can materialise human form, (as they did in the past) why did Jesus need to be born into the human race? Why didn’t he just take on human form and allow himself to be put to death?
Can you tell me what you believe about that?

GodsGrace · Dec 5, 2021

Wrangler said:
The Father is Jesus’ Father.

I tend to leave the HOW to our all-powerful God. Scripture TELLS us that God selected Jesus.

This is what you posted in no. 100:

Scripture states repeatedly and explicitly that Jesus is the (adopted) son of God - as we all are.

I'll tell you HOW Jesus is the Son of God....and WE are not like Him.
Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God.

If a wolf has a baby...the baby is a wolf.
If a human has a baby...the baby is human.
If God has a baby...the baby is God.

The 2nd Person of the Trinity has always existed as the WORD of God.
The WORD of God became a human 2,000 years ago to be the ultimate revelation of God for us.
John 1

Davy · Dec 5, 2021

amadeus said:
Ultimately what does the Christian designation matter to God? It certainly matters not to me that people want to say that I am or that I am not a Christian... so long as I please God and finish my course on His side.

The term Christian (Christ-man, meaning a follower of Jesus Christ), matters a lot to God because it involves being 'sealed' with God's seal. The below is pointing the destruction on the last day when Jesus returns. It is related to what Peter said in 1 Peter 4:17-18. The Hebrew for "mark" below is represented by the Hebrew letter Tau, which in old Hebrew was made like an X (a cross). Thus this prophecy is pointing to the judgement at Christ's future coming, and that mark as the sign of His cross.

Ezek 9:4-6
4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

5 And to the others He said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
KJV

Aunty Jane · Dec 5, 2021

Davy said:
The unbelieving Jew's idea that Jesus Christ is not God come in the flesh, Immanuel, is even a suggestion in some modern Bible translations from Wescott and Horts 1880s New Testament Greek translation. It pushes the humanist attributes of Jesus, trying to delegate Jesus to just a human like us only.

Jesus was fully human in every respect. He wasn’t a God/man however, because the Creator is immortal....something a human can never be. Jesus had to die, but an immortal cannot die.....nor can mere humans kill God.
There is so much more to the issue of “deity” versus “divinity” that is clearly not understood in Christendom.

Regarding the name Immanuel for example.....
In applying Isaiah 7:14 to Jesus, Matthew wrote: “All this actually came about for that to be fulfilled which was spoken by Jehovah through his prophet, saying: ‘Look! The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Immanuel,’ which means, when translated, ‘With Us Is God.’” (Matthew 1:22-23)
God can be “with” his people by means of his representatives, which were appointed all through Israel’s history. He does not have to be physically present to do that....as his judges, prophets, and kings represented him for thousands of years. (Some of the Israelite Kings were horrors, but God dealt with them, finally removing earthly representatives of his Kingship and reserving that position for his coming Messiah.)

It is true, Jesus was not called “Immanuel.” But that fact does not mean that he did not fulfill this scripture. That name, (like many other names in Israel) was meant to be a statement his mission rather than to give him a literal name. This can be illustrated by that other prophecy of Isaiah 9:6-7...
“For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness.”

These designations were all fulfilled in Jesus according to the true meaning of all these titles.
Jesus is a King, but he is also the son of a King, which makes him a Prince. All authority given to a Prince is from his King. His rule is “Princely” because he will rule under his Father’s authority.
How is that not clearly understood?

But the matter is actually very simple, only God has the Power to save and forgive sins. So if Jesus is not God, then it would mean He wouldn't have the power to save anyone. This is why John said those who refuse to believe Jesus came in the flesh are antichrists.

That again is an assumption....what did Jesus tell his apostles before he returned to heaven?
Matthew 28:18...
“Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth“....his authority is “given” to him, which means that he did not have such authority until it was granted by his Father.

We have never denied that Jesus came in the flesh....we deny that God came in the flesh.
Jesus is his Father’s servant as stated in Acts 4:27, 30......
“For truly both Herod and Pontius Pilate with men of the nations and with peoples of Israel were gathered together in this city against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. . . . .while you stretch out your hand for healing and while signs and wonders occur through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”

There is so much in the scriptures that is never spoken about, that would put the majority of Christendom’s doctrines in the trash where they belong.

Do you guys never do any research of your own?
Are we part of the “wheat”...or supporters of the “weeds”?
Only God knows....because we can only hope that we in the right camp, since there are only two, and all of us are in either one or the other.....and we know the destiny of both.

Aunty Jane · Dec 5, 2021

GodsGrace said:
If a wolf has a baby...the baby is a wolf.
If a human has a baby...the baby is human.
If God has a baby...the baby is God.

What flawed logic that is......”if God has a baby”???? God is the Father of many “sons”, and none of them are God. They are of divine origin, but ‘divinity’ is not the same as ‘deity’. This keeps coming up, time and again.....the difference is clear but there is this blindness.....

The 2nd Person of the Trinity has always existed as the WORD of God.

There is no second person of the trinity because the Bible teaches no such thing.
As “the Word” (ho Logos, which means spokesman) the pre-human Jesus was a creation of his Father. (Revelation 3:14) He is the “firstborn” (Colossians 1:15) of many “sons of God” who are all created beings....including Adam, the first human “son of God”. (Luke 3:38)

The WORD of God became a human 2,000 years ago to be the ultimate revelation of God for us.
John 1

Yes, that is true....Jesus was the very reflection of his Father in every way....but he was not deity. He was the divine son of God, come to earth to fulfill a mission. He represented his Father on earth.

John ch 1 in no way portrays Jesus as Jehovah. It is poor translation of John 1:1 that has given that impression because people rely on biased scholars to do their translating.

John 1:1 in Greek does not say that Jesus is “ho theos” (THE God of the Jews) but simply says that he is “theos” meaning “a divine mighty one” as all Greek gods were, despite the many flaws in their character. Satan is also called “theos” because he too is a powerful mighty one....but no one can claim that Satan is Almighty God.

The Word was “with THE God” “in the beginning” and he was divine. That is what is stated in the Greek version of John 1:1. If you are “with” someone, you cannot at the same time “be” that same person.

If God is an infinite immortal being, as the scriptures tell us, then he has always existed...there is no beginning for him, but there was for Jesus because he was a created “firstborn son” of his eternal Father....

Isn’t it time for you guys to do some solid research outside of Christendom’s rhetoric and see for yourselves that you have been fed the greatest lie in the history of Christianity? You have been led to put another two gods in the Father’s place...a clear breach of the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)

Can you not see why Jesus calls the counterfeit “weeds”, “workers of lawlessness”...those he “never knew” (Matthew 7:21-23) because they are breaking the most important Commandment that God ever gave humanity?....and they don’t even know it. That is true deception.

I implore all who blindly accept this doctrine to rethink, because the end is close, and we will get no second chances once Jesus arrives as judge. We know how this ends....

Davy · Dec 5, 2021

Aunty Jane said:
Jesus was fully human in every respect. He wasn’t a God/man however, because the Creator is immortal....something a human can never be. Jesus had to die, but an immortal cannot die.....nor can mere humans kill God.
There is so much more to the issue of “deity” versus “divinity” that is clearly not understood in Christendom.

You don't know what you're talking about, Jesus of Nazareth was FULLY God while in a flesh body like ours. The difference YOU don't understand because of your listening to the Jew's religion, is that Jesus' Spirit inside His flesh body NEVER changed! He did not... just stop having The GOD Spirit while in a flesh body (God is a Spirit per John in John 4). You should have understood this easily IF you understood Jesus in John 3 speaking to Nicodemus, for Jesus said there that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit. We each have a spirit linked to our flesh bodies that released when our flesh dies. Our flesh body is not... the real us. Likewise with Lord Jesus in His flesh body, His flesh was NOT the real Spirit of God that He is. I even laugh at those who can't understand Genesis 18 where Jesus appeared to Abraham with the image of man and ate the food Abraham prepared. That was long before Jesus was born in a flesh body through woman's womb, so how in the world could He do that back then? Simple, His Spirit body He has always... had, even from eternity past! These things Jews don't understand for some reason.

Regarding the name Immanuel for example.....
In applying Isaiah 7:14 to Jesus, Matthew wrote: “All this actually came about for that to be fulfilled which was spoken by Jehovah through his prophet, saying: ‘Look! The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Immanuel,’ which means, when translated, ‘With Us Is God.’” (Matthew 1:22-23)
God can be “with” his people by means of his representatives, which were appointed all through Israel’s history. He does not have to be physically present to do that....as his judges, prophets, and kings represented him for thousands of years. (Some of the Israelite Kings were horrors, but God dealt with them, finally removing earthly representatives of his Kingship and reserving that position for his coming Messiah.)

It is true, Jesus was not called “Immanuel.” But that fact does not mean that he did not fulfill this scripture. That name, (like many other names in Israel) was meant to be a statement his mission rather than to give him a literal name. This can be illustrated by that other prophecy of Isaiah 9:6-7...
“For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness.”

What a bunch of malarchy!

Matthew 1:23 declares Jesus' title of Emmanuel because it means 'with us is God', LITERALLY... IN THE FLESH! Your Jew's doctrines are against The New Testament.

Davy · Dec 5, 2021

Aunty Jane said:
What flawed logic that is......”if God has a baby”???? God is the Father of many “sons”, and none of them are God. They are of divine origin, but ‘divinity’ is not the same as ‘deity’. This keeps coming up, time and again.....the difference is clear but there is this blindness.....

There is no second person of the trinity because the Bible teaches no such thing.
As “the Word” (ho Logos, which means spokesman) the pre-human Jesus was a creation of his Father. (Revelation 3:14) He is the “firstborn” (Colossians 1:15) of many “sons of God” who are all created beings....including Adam, the first human “son of God”. (Luke 3:38)

Yes, that is true....Jesus was the very reflection of his Father in every way....but he was not deity. He was the divine son of God, come to earth to fulfill a mission. He represented his Father on earth.

John ch 1 in no way portrays Jesus as Jehovah. It is poor translation of John 1:1 that has given that impression because people rely on biased scholars to do their translating.

John 1:1 in Greek does not say that Jesus is “ho theos” (THE God of the Jews) but simply says that he is “theos” meaning “a divine mighty one” as all Greek gods were, despite the many flaws in their character. Satan is also called “theos” because he too is a powerful mighty one....but no one can claim that Satan is Almighty God.

The Word was “with THE God” “in the beginning” and he was divine. That is what is stated in the Greek version of John 1:1. If you are “with” someone, you cannot at the same time “be” that same person.

If God is an infinite immortal being, as the scriptures tell us, then he has always existed...there is no beginning for him, but there was for Jesus because he was a created “firstborn son” of his eternal Father....

Isn’t it time for you guys to do some solid research outside of Christendom’s rhetoric and see for yourselves that you have been fed the greatest lie in the history of Christianity? You have been led to put another two gods in the Father’s place...a clear breach of the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)

Can you not see why Jesus calls the counterfeit “weeds”, “workers of lawlessness”...those he “never knew” (Matthew 7:21-23) because they are breaking the most important Commandment that God ever gave humanity?....and they don’t even know it. That is true deception.

I implore all who blindly accept this doctrine to rethink, because the end is close, and we will get no second chances once Jesus arrives as judge. We know how this ends....

See if your Jewish lies stand up to the following Scripture of what Jesus said about Himself...

John 8:56-59
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

59 Then took they up stones to cast at Him: but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
KJV

The I AM is one of God's sacred names. Lord Jesus called Himself God there, and that's why the Jews took up stones to try and stone Him.

GodsGrace · Dec 5, 2021

Aunty Jane said:
No, it tells me that you have either a bad or selective memory...it happens to all of us....

I have been a JW for 50 years and I have never believed anything other than what the scriptures say about Michael. All of Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the same things.
References to him indicate that the pre-human, and post human Jesus could well be Michael in another role as the Logos. (Meaning one who speaks God’s words...a spokesman) He is a being with many names and roles played in the outworking of his Father's purpose. Revelation 3:12 indicates that he now has yet another new name.

AJ
The word LOGOS does not mean God's words...a spokesman.
Although, in a simple way, it could be described like that.

It means much more...and something that will not be learned from the Kingdom Halls of the world.

Here is what LOGOS means...simply it IS the Word which God speaks....
And John explains that it is GOD, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.
Christianity explains it thus:

What is the Logos in the Bible? Meaning and Significance

and this, besides explaining LOGOS also explains the Trinity - which it represents...

Logos (Christianity) - Wikipedia

There are many "sons of God" mentioned in the Bible...even Adam is called a "son of God" (Luke 3:38) “Sons of God” are created, not born as offspring of Adam. But what makes Jesus unique is the fact that he is "only begotten" (monogenes) which is a word used in the scriptures to describe an "only child". If Jesus was the first of God's creations, then this would indeed make him unique, being the only intelligent creature in existence who was created directly by his Father....everything else was made by the son, working at his Father's side. (Proverbs 8:30-31)

The fact that Jehovah and his Son refer to each other in those human terms indicates that there is seniority of one over the other, (1 Corinthians 11:3) and that one naturally existed before the other, because all those "begotten" in the scriptures, needed a 'begetter' who existed before them. There is no distinction made in the use of this word when applied to Jesus.

John 1:1 does not say that the Word always existed...."in the beginning" cannot refer to the Son being God, because God had no beginning.....Jesus did.

Time has always existed for God...
He created time when the Universe was created.
That was a beginning...
But God was before the beginning...The word for this would be eternal.

Hebrews 7:3
Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

Jesus is being compared to Melchizedek. He had no beginning of days nor end of life.

Micah 5:2
“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity.”

John 8:58
Before Abraham was,,,I AM - alluding to God's name to Moses.

And this shows that Jesus was not created at a time - I should say the 2nd Person of the Trinity:

John 17:24
Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

GodsGrace · Dec 5, 2021

Aunty Jane said:
Revelation 3:14 says Jesus is the "beginning of God's creation", not "the beginner of God's creation"...that is taking license with the text.

JESUS IS THE BEGINNING OF GOD'S CREATION.
JESUS IS THE BEGINNER OF GOD'S CREATION.

Unless you're saying that Jesus was CREATED...
the above mean the same.

If you ARE saying that Jesus was created...could you post some verses?

Colossians 1:15-17 says....that creation came “through” the Son, not from him. There is only one Creator.....Jehovah.

Correct.
Yahweh is the CREATOR.
HOW He created is through the WORD..through what He said.
The WORD was with God and through Him was all created. John 1

God spoke THE WORD, and the universe was created:
Genesis 1, 3, 6, 9, 11, 14, 20, 24, 26 "AND GOD SAID"

Learn what “theos” means in Greek and you will understand exactly what John 1:1 says. (See my last post)

Theos means God.
Theology means the study of God.

Theos
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 2316 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
qeoß of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with (3588)) the supreme Divinity
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Theos 3:65,322
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
theh'-os Noun Masculine
Definition

a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
the Godhead, trinity

God the Father, the first person in the trinity

Christ, the second person of the trinity

Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
spoken of the only and true God

refers to the things of God

his counsels, interests, things due to him
whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
1. God's representative or viceregent
  1. of magistrates and judges

NAS Word Usage - Total: 1314
divinely 1, God 1267, god 6, God's 27, God-fearing 1, godly 2, godly* 1, gods 8, Lord 1

We got so sick of the biased mistranslations, that we published the New World Translation which had no connection to the doctrines of Christendom. We went back to the beginning using scholarly works to determine original language meanings to words twisted by Christendom’s scholars. I will pit the NWT against any translation you like. When I do searches on word meanings, the NWT is always accurate. I can’t say the same for other translations which show bias towards the trinity, or translate different words with one meaning. (Like hell)

Well, you're right about this.
The NWT has no connection to the doctrines of Christendom.
All other bibles use a COMMITTEE of different denominations to translate and experts with PhD s in language.
I'm linking the following...please see the section called TRANSLATE

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures - Wikipedia

TRANSLATORS
The New World Translation was produced by the New World Bible Translation Committee, formed in 1947. This committee is said to have comprised unnamed members of multinational background.[32] The committee requested that the Watch Tower Society not publish the names of its members,[33][34] stating that they did not want to "advertise themselves but let all the glory go to the Author of the Scriptures, God,"[35] adding that the translation, "should direct the reader... to... Jehovah God".[36] The publishers believe that "the particulars of [the New World Bible Translation Committee's members] university or other educational training are not the important thing" and that "the translation testifies to their qualification".[36]

Former high-ranking Watch Tower staff have identified various members of the translation team. Former governing body member Raymond Franz listed Nathan H. Knorr, Fredrick W. Franz, Albert D. Schroeder, George D. Gangas, and Milton G. Henschel as members of the translation team, adding that only Frederick Franz had sufficient knowledge in biblical languages.[37][38] Referring to the identified members, evangelical minister Walter Ralston Martin said, "The New World Bible translation committee had no known translators with recognized degrees in Greek or Hebrew exegesis or translation... None of these men had any university education except Franz, who left school after two years, never completing even an undergraduate degree." Franz had stated that he was familiar with not only Hebrew, but with Greek, Latin, Spanish, Portuguese, German, and French for the purpose of biblical translation.[39][40]

Not only is the NWT biased...but it was translated by non-professionals...making the bias complete in its intent.
The intent being that it should comply with what the JW organization believes.

Peter clearly states that Jesus was “put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit” (1 Peter 3:18) ....he was not resurrected in the body he sacrificed.....that would be taking it back, and besides he could not have taken a fleshly body to heaven. (1 Corinthians 15:50)

When angels appeared to Abraham at Mamre, he made a feast for them, at which they ate and drank. Two of them went on to Sodom to rescue Lot and these also ate and drank what Lot provided. Spirit beings can materialise at will, as rebel angels did in Noah’s day....they even produced children.

One expression by a shocked doubting Thomas does not make a doctrine. Again, look up the word “theos” in Greek. Were the apostles ever in any doubt as to who their God was? (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

I've already replied to the above and will not repeat.
Anyone interested could read chapter 15 of 1 Coriinthians.

amadeus · Dec 5, 2021

GodsGrace said:
What I'm saying is that the designation should mean something.

If I say I'm Muslim, it means something.
If I say I'm female, it means something.

We cannot make up our own meanings...
although this seems to be what we're doing these days.

Again, I'm not saying it matters to God (although it might)...
But it certainly matters to identify a Christian person.

We are speaking of the same thing, communication! What I am to God matters. I would like to easily be able to communicate that to other people who might even agree with me...if they could understand my meanings. Do we understand theirs? If the Holy Spirit is working in both of us and we are, neither of us, quenching the Spirit, then we are.

To be able to communicate to others who disagree is also important in order to really discuss and help each other grown toward God is also important.

But as God showed us at the Tower of Babel, sometimes being able to communicate is not such a good thing, as when what we are saying is wrong.

Help us all dear Lord to communicate to others always in accord with your will!

GodsGrace · Dec 5, 2021

amadeus said:
We are speaking of the same thing, communication! What I am to God matters. I would like to easily be able to communicate that to other people who might even agree with me...if they could understand my meanings. Do we understand theirs? If the Holy Spirit is working in both of us and we are, neither of us, quenching the Spirit, then we are.

To be able to communicate to others who disagree is also important in order to really discuss and help each other grown toward God is also important.

But as God showed us at the Tower of Babel, sometimes being able to communicate is not such a good thing, as when what we are saying is wrong.

Help us all dear Lord to communicate to others always in accord with your will!

I think that what you are to God may or may not matter to Him.
If you love God and serve Him, I believe He is happy with you.
I've always said that our doctrine does not save us.

However, some doctrine is so far off what Christianity teaches that it should not be considered to be "Christian", as some
claim.

I never speak to a person's salvation but only to their doctrinal beliefs.

amadeus · Dec 5, 2021

Davy said:
The term Christian (Christ-man, meaning a follower of Jesus Christ), matters a lot to God because it involves being 'sealed' with God's seal. The below is pointing the destruction on the last day when Jesus returns. It is related to what Peter said in 1 Peter 4:17-18. The Hebrew for "mark" below is represented by the Hebrew letter Tau, which in old Hebrew was made like an X (a cross). Thus this prophecy is pointing to the judgement at Christ's future coming, and that mark as the sign of His cross.

Ezek 9:4-6
4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

5 And to the others He said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
KJV

With all of the details you possess... if they are not used by you correctly in the eyes of God how important ultimately are they?

What good are words and details even from the scriptures for anyone who does not understand them? Will not God give any needed understanding to a heart that is hungry and thirsty for His righteousness?

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." Matt 5:6

amadeus · Dec 5, 2021

GodsGrace said:
I think that what you are to God may or may not matter to Him.
If you love God and serve Him, I believe He is happy with you.
I've always said that our doctrine does not save us.

However, some doctrine is so far off what Christianity teaches that it should not be considered to be "Christian", as some
claim.

I never speak to a person's salvation but only to their doctrinal beliefs.

Lots of people as you know do speak to a person's salvation as if they understood perfectly God's criteria.

Do people understand why David, guilty of adultery and murder, either one punishable by death according the letter of the law God gave to Moses, was shown mercy? You probably know the answer, but you need not answer it here.

God's judgments are always fair judgements... even if we cannot always understand them.

Grailhunter · Dec 5, 2021

amadeus said:
We are speaking of the same thing, communication! What I am to God matters. I would like to easily be able to communicate that to other people who might even agree with me...if they could understand my meanings. Do we understand theirs? If the Holy Spirit is working in both of us and we are, neither of us, quenching the Spirit, then we are.

To be able to communicate to others who disagree is also important in order to really discuss and help each other grown toward God is also important.

But as God showed us at the Tower of Babel, sometimes being able to communicate is not such a good thing, as when what we are saying is wrong.

Help us all dear Lord to communicate to others always in accord with your will!

There is no biblical requirement for any Christian to agree with each other.
I would think that there is a requirement to agree with the scriptures. Or be honest enough to say you do not agree with the scriptures.
And then there are some that believe any scripture can mean anything. That the whole Bible is a grey area of words that is open to any opinion or interpretation. That is where we get these klondike beliefs.
And I can prove that I am tolerant of various beliefs until they speak against the scriptures so as to hurt people. Hurt their lives, hurt their Christian walk, and possibly damn their souls by twisting the scriptures.

The willy nilly method of studying the Bible. LOL A lot of people read the scriptures and develop beliefs that look like a tree....this belief leaves the trunk....but that branch is a dead end. And they have a lot of branch beliefs that do not connect. Truth and beliefs will flow with a logical pattern and be interconnected. Kind of like the Triquetra, a symbol on this forum.

Some of the Gnostics read the scriptures and wrote off Yahweh as an evil and crazy deity. Now you have the Jehovah's Witnesses writing off Christ as a man. You can only pervert the scriptures so much....and then their is a pattern of intent. Effort, lots of effort to more or less deny Christianity as a whole. In post 592 in the tread Heresy @Aunty Jane said...The Bible does not teach about 95% of what most “Christians” today, believe. Division or attack on Christianity as a whole?

Romans 16:17-18 I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people

Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

The Apostles absolutely believed Christ was a God. So many scriptures of His miracles and His authority and His place in Heaven. So many miracles that mere man could not do. So many scriptures about eternal punishment. It is not only that they take exception with something in the scriptures it is pattern of intent to deny nearly all the Christian truths in the Bible...95% But that was not good enough, they had to come up with their own Bible to change things. So they do not call themselves Witnesses of Christ, they call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses and at that they do not even know God the Father's name. But do they even call themselves Christians?

Somewhere you have to draw the line between a discussion and all out attack on the Bible and Christianity.

Brakelite · Dec 5, 2021

Aunty Jane said:
Again, I believe that is getting “divinity” and “deity” confused. Christ can be divine without being God.

I'm not confused at all. I may be confusing to you because you fail to understand, of refuse to. But I'm fine thanks. Jesus and His Father are both God. In the highest sense. How that works I don't know which is why I don't try to explain it. But it is.

dev553344 · Dec 5, 2021

ROS777 said:
Christians, your input please: Here's a question I probably wouldn't have had had I not beensurfing the internet on "Christian" sites. I was good with what I thought before but nowI am a bit confused.I always thought and am almost sure that it is not a salvation issue.Tell me what you thinkoes it really matter if we beleive that God is 3 seperate persons in one God, all equalin power and majesty ORIs it okay to beleive that God is one God ( like above ) yet has three seperate roles or offices, all equal in power and majesty although ( like concept above) Christ is half human from a virgin human mother; Father: God.Jesus said if you've seen me you've seen the Father.Isn't it semantics and not a salvation issue anyway; to believe one or the other or even both could be the answer?Thanks in advance for input.

I don't think it is a salvation issue as no one really knows the true nature of God. I see the Father as the powerful and almighty God. And he gives power to Jesus to be almighty and powerful also. The Holy Spirit is almighty and powerful too and is probably both God the Father's spirit and Jesus within him.

Aunty Jane · Dec 5, 2021

Davy said:
See if your Jewish lies stand up to the following Scripture of what Jesus said about Himself...

John 8:56-59
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

59 Then took they up stones to cast at Him: but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
KJV

The I AM is one of God's sacred names. Lord Jesus called Himself God there, and that's why the Jews took up stones to try and stone Him.

Since this belief rests on what God told Moses in Exodus 3:13-15, let's read that from the Jewish Tanakh and see what it says instead of the unreliable KJV.....the Jews should be able to interpret Hebrew...it is their language after all....

Exodus 3:13-15....
"13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם
אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:

14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"
ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:

15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

How do the Jews interpret "Ehyeh asher ehyeh"? Does it mean "I AM"? Or is it more accurate to say "I Will Be"?
Did the Hebrews know Yahweh? Yes they did. Did they know he existed? Yes they did.....if that is so, then what is this passage actually telling us?
Is God's name a statement of his existence? (I AM) or is it a statement of his intentions towards his people? (something they had yet to experience) Saying that "I Will BE What I Will BE" is telling his people that he will "BE" whatever he needs to "BE" in order to fulfill his purpose in connection with them.

Exodus 3:14 has no connection with John 8:58 at all, except in the minds of trinitarians who insist that Jesus must be God and will therefore misinterpret scripture to push their doctrine.

It is inference again doing what it does with all these scriptures that are furnished to promote this error. There are no direct statements, so you grasp at straws.

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