The truth is the literal wordage of the New Testament. We need to back off on all of this commentary and paint a picture with scriptures. It would frighten most Christians.
Was Jesus a spirit being before coming to earth as a human?
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ScottA
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Yes, that is, as long as we remain in the knowledge that the scriptures must be "spiritually discerned", because all language (including the scriptures) has been purposely "confused" by God...an act that has not been rescinded.
“Spiritually discerning “ Scriptures seems to lead to chaos. That is where all of these religious commentaries start, causing all of these splintering off religions. Just take the Bible literally and anybody can understand it. The unity of the faith is all about taking the Bible literal and not spiritually. The word is spiritual but it is literally understood by babes.
For example, spiritual discernment of the word often causes meant to say “the word of God says this but it can also mean this this this and this”. With the Bible, there is one interpretation but many applications. These New Age teachers teach applications as interpretations. This is the root cause of false doctrine.
ScottA
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No. By removing the Spirit, you take away the key of knowledge. The words themselves "are foolishness."
Such would be a repeat of history, a return of pharisaical law.
No, when people say the spirit told me this about the word and the spirit told me that about the word of God. And it doesn’t line up with the context, it’s a fraud in the making. The Spirit does not add to the word. Man does.
ScottA
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Certainly there is a problem of people making claims about God and the scriptures that are not of God at all. But you cannot categorically dismiss all spiritual claims--when the scriptures themselves say the opposite.
"Do not quench the Spirit." 1 Thessalonians 5:19
Indeed, it would be better to allow those spirits that have no power over the Holy Spirit, than not to allow the Holy Spirit. Again, such "takes away the key of knowledge."
Has God not allowed the wheat as well as the tares? Why then would you impose what is contrary.
lies lies lies
and pat yourself on the back for your blasphemy and lies
"here is your King, riding on a donkey, meek and lowly"
Jesus: rides on a donkey, meek and lowly.
"worship God and Him only"
angels and men: do not worship me it is evil
Jesus: accepts worship from men and angels, every knee will bow to Him and every tongue confess Him
Satan: asks God for permission to test Job
Satan: asks Jesus for permission to test Peter
"tell them I AM has sent you"
Jesus:
if you do not believe that I AM you will die in your sins.
you, keith, will die in your sins, unless you turn, and believe Him.
you cannot accept these things because you are blind.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Is the Father in the Son or the Son in Father or the Holy Spirit in the Son or the Father in the Holy Spirit???
OR
are THEY Echad Elohim???
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” 15Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel:
‘The Lord God of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, has sent me to you.
This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’
Exodus 3:15
Thayer Definition:
1) a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God
LXX renders
Hope this helps
yes, thanks -- here is a screenshot from the apostolic Bible polyglot...
some watchtowerite had made the argument that the LXX translates "mighty God" as 'Messenger of great council' ((because watchtowerites hate the deity of Christ and seek always to pervert and delete scripture that shows it, see: NWT)).
i had replied earlier after finding an interlinear LXX that completely left out many of the things in the Hebrew of Isaiah 9:6, such as Mighty God & Wonderful & Counselor ((which names identify Christ as God, as The Angel of the LORD, and as the Holy Spirit)) - not sure where that link is now that i had read earlier, but if pressed i could go find it.
at any rate i found this one, and it suffices to prove my point that the watchtowerite was full of baloney. the LXX simply does not render 'MIGHTY GOD' in Hebrew as 'Angel of Great Council' -- the LXX ((at least the verison the ABP has here)) still has MIGHTY GOD just like the original Hebrew.
actually your version does -- compare carefully between the ABP i posted and your LXX text..
much of what is written in the original Hebrew of this verse ((as verified by the dead sea scrolls)) is simply missing there.
wow
have you thought your argument through at all?
Jesus Christ is KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
His throne is in Jerusalem.
if, per your objection, He is King over ALL THE EARTH but not Israel specifically, then He is even greater and higher than the actual King of Israel, which is the LORD per Isaiah 43.
((which BTW, Isaiah is looong after Samuel, so much for your 'YHWH used to be King but not anymore, too bad' argument, lol!!))
so your backwards objection actually calls Christ GREATER than God!
and you are supposedly what passes for a wise man, learned in scripture, in the watchtowerite cult?
WOW
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Brakelite
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I agree. Two separate beings. Like I'm a separate being/person from my father. But the essence of Jesus' Father is that He is God. That's His nature. The Son naturally takes on the same nature, just as the human son takes on the nature of his human father. I'm not suggesting the Son is the same person as the Father. But unlike humanity, in their case, perfection begets perfection, the Son is also God in the highest sense.
I said, Jesus never claimed to be the king of the Jews. You replied:
I'm not going to believe anyone who writes sentences that are supposedly in the Bible but they never give the verse references so that I can easily verify what they are claiming. They could easily be making it up and/or deliberately trying to deceive. Beware the wolves in sheep's clothing!
Acts 17:11-12
(11) Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.
(12) Many of them therefore believed;
They wouldn't have believed if they couldn't confirm it from the Scriptures.
What's the Bible reference? How is that Jesus claiming to be the king of Israel?
What's the Bible reference? Do you mean Matthew 4:10 (Then Jesus said to him, “Get behind me, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve him only.’”)? What has that got to do with your claim that Jesus declared himself to be king of Israel?
What's the Bible reference? I can't find that. Who is saying it? Again, what's your point?
What's the Bible reference? How does Jesus in the future being the king of God's kingdom, ruling over all mankind and all angels, imply that Jesus claimed to be the king of Israel?
What's the Bible reference? I don't recall reading about that.
What's the Bible reference? I can't find that quote in the Bible.
What's the Bible reference? Where does Jesus claim to be the king of Israel?
I'm not going to believe anyone who writes sentences that are supposedly in the Bible but they never give the verse references so that I can easily verify what they are claiming. They could easily be making it up and/or deliberately trying to deceive. Beware the wolves in sheep's clothing!
Acts 17:11-12
(11) Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.
(12) Many of them therefore believed;
They wouldn't have believed if they couldn't confirm it from the Scriptures.
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What's the Bible reference for that?
Of course the king of all mankind, a king of kings, is greater than just the king of Israel. But why is a king of more than one nation greater than almighty God?! Was Nebuchadnezzar greater than God? Daniel said to him, Daniel 2:37 (WEB):
You, O king, are king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength, and the glory.
God at one time claimed to be the king of Israel (as per Isaiah 43:15), but eventually Jesus will hand over the new kingdom that fills the whole Earth to God, and God will be the eternal king over all mankind:
1 Corinthians 15:24,28 (WEB):
(24) Then the end comes, when he will deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he will have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
(28) When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.
(28) When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.
Well I've never claimed to be a wise man. I would be flattered, but I suspect you're being sarcastic! Nor have I mentioned the "Watchtower". I am not a Jehovah's Witness, if that's what you're implying. Why not stick to discussing the Bible rather than me?!
I think you are saying Jesus did not become Jehovah's only-begotten son until he was born a human, is that correct? John 3:16 states Jehovah sent His only-begotten son is one. He was the very first and only creation made exclusively by Jehovah's Hands Rev 3:14; the firstborn of all creation/creature Col 1:15 and that is the reason why he has that title sir, out of all of God's sons, Jesus was the only one who was created solely by Jehovah. Why? Because nothing else existed.
It is in fact true as well that Jesus was the only son of God who was born a human, so the title may be applied because of that, perhaps I am in error in my thinking, but John 3:16 leads me to believe that he was referred to as the only-begotten prior to being sent.
I think that since Jehovah knows the finale from the beginning that He knew that He would send His son Jesus the second Adam to the earth as flesh and blood. I fully agree everything was made through and for Jesus Col 1:16
Brakelite
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No. That's not what I'm saying. God sent His Son. That wouldn't be possible if He didn't have a Son to send. And that Son wasn't created. First born of creation can equally mean they source and beginning of all creation because He is the Creator. There is more scripture to substantiate that than the JW twist.
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