The Trinity

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Aunty Jane

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No time to post right now...
But I'm reading thru a little and find In @Aunty Jane a strong dislike for Christianity.
Actually, what I have is a strong dislike for is the lies that masquerade as Christianity. Jesus himself forewarned that the same kind of apostasy that occurred in Judaism, would also occur in Christianity. A counterfeit form of the Christian Faith was to be sown by the devil (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42) and these “weeds” which were sown long ago, were to grow along with the “wheat” in the same field....so both would exist in “the world” together, and identifying one from the other is vital....but not difficult.....you simply have to look at what they do, rather than what they say. Who are practicing what they preach? (Luke 6:46) Certainly not Christendom. (Matthew 7:21-23)

After Jesus’ death, the apostles worked hard to keep the truth from being corrupted by those who wanted to introduce their own ideas about many things. Paul said that there was one acting as a “restraint” against this tide whilst they were alive, but after their death and the final books of the Christian scriptures were written, that window was closed, and the restraint was removed leading to a full blown apostasy which took place within a very short period of time. From the second century on the ECF's began to deviate from the Bible’s teachings and a weakened form of the faith kept growing like the “weeds” that Jesus had predicted.

By the 4th century the situation was ripe for the Emperor of Rome to introduce a new “State Religion”....one Universal (Catholic) faith that would be enjoined on all of his subjects. But this was a political move rather than a religious one. The only way to unite his divided empire was to introduce a single religion that incorporated tenets of both faiths. This Emperor never became a baptized Christian himself until on his deathbed.

This religion was not Christian, but a sad fusion of pagan sun worship and a very weakened form of Christianity. The Emperor who introduced Roman Catholicism was a worshipper of Zeus all his life....and if you see statues of Zeus, you will see a striking resemblance to Catholic images of Jesus.

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Since Jesus was a Middle Eastern Jew, for whom long hair was not permitted, (1 Corinthians 11:14) would this image really represent Jesus? And since images were forbidden in both Jewish and Christian worship, we have to wonder why Catholicism is full of them.....don’t we? (Exodus 20:4-5; 1 Corinthians 10:14)

At the Vatican, you will also see in St Peter’s Square a Babylonian sun wheel with an obelisk in the middle, which was imported from Egypt, originally representing the sun god Ra. Why is it there?

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Sun worship is very visible in the Catholic religion and the main reason why it’s 'holy day' was moved to “Sunday”. It’s all hiding in plain sight if you know what you’re looking at. Even the bread is in the shape of the sun...

So, no....it is not “Christianity” that I have a problem with....it’s what masquerades as such....shown up in everything it believes and teaches. The whole system I believe, is a complete departure from all that Christ and his apostles taught. This is probably why they are so against “sola scriptura”....because they know that what they teach is not from the Bible.

Would you like to discuss those departures? And compare scripture with what the church teaches?
I do not doubt your sincerity for a moment, but I do have grave doubts about the foundations of your faith. I have come from Christendom, so I studied all those beliefs very carefully to prove to myself where they came from, and what the truth was. Are you willing to do that?

Christianity, which has been around for 2,000 years is not teaching what is biblical,,,,which bible was made by Christian's. (The NT).
LOL....you said it....”Christianity, which has been around for 2,000 years is not teaching what is biblical”...I couldn’t agree more.

The Bible is not the word of man, but the word of God (1 Thessalonians 2:13).....no human is responsible for its contents and I can assure you of one thing....not a word in those scriptures was penned by a Catholic writer. Every book was written by a Jew....even the NT.

But what a few men teach, beginning 150 years ago,
I guess They teach the true meanings of the NT !
You have never done any study in the book of Daniel? His prophesies pertain to “the time of the end” which we are living in right now. It was at this time that God said he would ‘purify, cleanse and refine’ his worshippers....yet not all would consent to the cleansing, preferring to stick to their evil ways, like the Pharisees of old.

“As for you, Daniel, keep these words secret, and seal the book until the time of the end. Many shall fall away, and evils shall increase.”. . . . I heard what was said but I did not understand, so I asked, “My lord, what will be the outcome of all these things?” He replied, “Go on your way, Daniel, for these words are to be kept secret and remain sealed until the end time. “Many shall be purified, cleansed, and refined, but the wicked will persist in their evil ways.” (Daniel 12:4,8-10 - New Catholic Bible)

History is repeating, but the majority cannot see it...again, just like it was in the first century....the Jews rejected the truth based on what their defective religious leaders told them, and lost their place in God’s kingdom. It will happen again....

It would be funny were it not so sad.
I feel exactly the same way about you guys.....:(
“Few” Jesus said, are on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14) Can you tell me why?
 
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amadeus

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Davy,
I've noticed that some here do not believe in the divinity of Jesus...they do not accept that Jesus is God.
They do not accept the Trinity and do not even understand it - since they don't WANT to, of course.
Sister, I do not insist that you believe as I do, but you should not insist that I do not want to believe in the Trinity.

I want to believe in the Truth, whatever it is!

I have argued with people and studied and prayed about the nature of God for many years. He has shown me many things but never that there is a Trinity. Neither has He has shown me that it does not exist. I do doubt that it exists because of things He has shown me. I won't share them as my testimonies are not up for debate. When people are really and sincerely seeking I do then want to share as God leads me. It is not for me, but for Him and perhaps sometimes for them [the ones who hunger and thirst after His righteousness].

Should I then want to understand the Trinity to be true because you believe it is? Are your words about this the very Word of God? If not, then why so insistent? Who but God knows for sure and for sure gives any real increase to men?

I strive to live for God 24/7. First above all things is where I place Him. But, no, I am not walking precisely in your tracks. I am living by faith, which according to what is written is:

"...the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Because of history and because of the ways and apparent beliefs of the majority must you be right in your "knowledge" of these things?


I've also noticed the word CHRISTIAN under their avatar, and this is incorrect.

I agree with you 100%.
We Christians will not allow Christianity to be washed down into nothingness
and to make it lose all meaning; everyone changing it to suit their own beliefs.
A person is a Christian or he is not.
Black and white it is... and you know for certain all of the truth even better than Paul did when he wrote these words?

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12
 
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Wrangler

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It would be nice if you removed the word CHRISTIAN below your avatar.
Christianity means SOMETHING SPECIFIC.
Appeal to Authority. I am a unitarian Christian.

It would be nice if you removed your trinitarian bias in bringing people to Christ.

Said differently, if you had to choose, would you rather:
A. I am saved, come to Christ believing his Father is the only God.
B. I am not saved because I reject the trinity.

A or B.
 

Wrangler

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@GodsGrace Son of God and Son of man are indeed glorious titles illustrating that hypostatic union.
Except hypostatic Union is ingloriously not in Scripture. What is in Scripture is Christianity’ end game which STILL keeps God and Jesus as not one in the same. 1 Cor 15:23-28
 

Aunty Jane

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I've noticed that some here do not believe in the divinity of Jesus...they do not accept that Jesus is God.
They do not accept the Trinity and do not even understand it - since they don't WANT to, of course.
That is where you are dead wrong....JW's do believe in the divinity of Christ.....we just do not believe in his deity, which is not mentioned even once in scripture. Christendom gets these two things muddled....but they are not interchangeable terms.

I've also noticed the word CHRISTIAN under their avatar, and this is incorrect.
Who are you to say who is and who isn't a Christian?....Jesus has that privilege, unless of course he has delegated that assignment to you...? o_O

We Christians will not allow Christianity to be washed down into nothingness
and to make it lose all meaning; everyone changing it to suit their own beliefs.
Are you speaking for "all Christians" now, many of whom do not subscribe to much of what you believe.....?

A person is a Christian or he is not.
By their fruits...Jesus said. Rotten fruit comes off rotten trees. (Matthew 7:16-19)
 

Wrangler

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That is where you are dead wrong....JW's do believe in the divinity of Christ.....we just do not believe in his deity, which is not mentioned even once in scripture. Christendom gets these two things muddled....but they are not interchangeable terms.
Please start a new thread on this. I find it fascinating and have thought along these lines but have not thought them through.
 
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Aunty Jane

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View attachment 19143

Where exactly are you seeing "monogenes theos"?

Where is the link for your quote? I have two interlinear translations below with "monogenes theos"...

Mounce Interlinear...mistranslates the text.
"No one oudeis has horaō ever pōpote seen horaō God theos. The only monogenēs Son , himself God theos, the ho one who is eimi in eis the ho bosom kolpos of the ho Father patēr, he ekeinos has made him known exēgeomai."

"Monogenes theos" ("only begotten god") is clearly there in the Greek, but the English translation adds words that are not in the Greek text to promote Jesus as a deity. This is pure trinitarian bias.


Kingdom Interlinear...translates the text literally.
θεὸν God οὐδεὶς no one ἑώρακεν has seen πώποτε· at any time; μονογενὴς only-begotten θεὸς god ὁ the (one) ὢν being εἰς into τὸν the κόλπον bosom τοῦ of the πατρὸς Father ἐκεῖνος that (one) ἐξηγήσατο. explained.
 
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Brakelite

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Backlit: The glorious Deity of Christ; indeed, and God in Three Persons, are overwhelmingly clear from Scripture.
I agree, although I am reluctant
to promote those 3 persons as described in the early creeds as being perfectly equal and identical in all things. For example. We recognize quite readily that the Father is, in His inherent nature, immortal, therefore cannot die. The Son however, in His humanity, did indeed die. Did divinity die when Christ hung upon the cross? In the Son, yes, otherwise we have but a human sacrifice altogether insufficient for the saving of souls.
 

Wrangler

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I agree, although I am reluctant
to promote those 3 persons as described in the early creeds as being perfectly equal and identical in all things. For example. We recognize quite readily that the Father is, in His inherent nature, immortal, therefore cannot die. The Son however, in His humanity, did indeed die. Did divinity die when Christ hung upon the cross? In the Son, yes, otherwise we have but a human sacrifice altogether insufficient for the saving of souls.

Where does this idea come from that a human sacrifice is, by definition, altogether insufficient for the saving of souls? God's will is Sovereign and he is perfectly capable of making his own acceptance criteria. Hence the suffering servant in Isaiah says nothing about also being a deity.
 
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marks

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If you look at other NT texts than the flawed Received Text, you will see that many modern texts have monogenes theos. Also the p66 and p75 manuscripts dated to the second century have onlybegotten theos.
I see. We're discussing manuscript family differences.

Much love!
 

marks

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Where is the link for your quote? I have two interlinear translations below with "monogenes theos"...

Mounce Interlinear...mistranslates the text.
"No one oudeis has horaō ever pōpote seen horaō God theos. The only monogenēs Son , himself God theos, the ho one who is eimi in eis the ho bosom kolpos of the ho Father patēr, he ekeinos has made him known exēgeomai."

"Monogenes theos" ("only begotten god") is clearly there in the Greek, but the English translation adds words that are not in the Greek text to promote Jesus as a deity. This is pure trinitarian bias.


Kingdom Interlinear...translates the text literally.
θεὸν God οὐδεὶς no one ἑώρακεν has seen πώποτε· at any time; μονογενὴς only-begotten θεὸς god ὁ the (one) ὢν being εἰς into τὸν the κόλπον bosom τοῦ of the πατρὸς Father ἐκεῖνος that (one) ἐξηγήσατο. explained.
It sounds like we're discussion manuscript family variations.

But you think the difference is intentional?

That someone deliberately mistranslated a passage to change it's meaning in reference to their views regarding the trinity doctrine?

Much love!
 
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marks

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Kingdom Interlinear...translates the text literally.
θεὸν God οὐδεὶς no one ἑώρακεν has seen πώποτε· at any time; μονογενὴς only-begotten θεὸς god ὁ the (one) ὢν being εἰς into τὸν the κόλπον bosom τοῦ of the πατρὸς Father ἐκεῖνος that (one) ἐξηγήσατο. explained.
As far as the Kingdom Interlinear, I've looked at it before and do not use it.

Much love!
 

marks

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Where is the link for your quote? I have two interlinear translations below with "monogenes theos"...

Mounce Interlinear...mistranslates the text.
"No one oudeis has horaō ever pōpote seen horaō God theos. The only monogenēs Son , himself God theos, the ho one who is eimi in eis the ho bosom kolpos of the ho Father patēr, he ekeinos has made him known exēgeomai."

"Monogenes theos" ("only begotten god") is clearly there in the Greek, but the English translation adds words that are not in the Greek text to promote Jesus as a deity. This is pure trinitarian bias.


Kingdom Interlinear...translates the text literally.
θεὸν God οὐδεὶς no one ἑώρακεν has seen πώποτε· at any time; μονογενὴς only-begotten θεὸς god ὁ the (one) ὢν being εἰς into τὸν the κόλπον bosom τοῦ of the πατρὸς Father ἐκεῖνος that (one) ἐξηγήσατο. explained.
Do you hold to the idea that Jesus is a god, but not THE God, YHWH? Or do you you see that differently?

I ask because of your reference to the Kingdom Interlinear. One of the things I've looked at is how it translates John 1:1. Not that I'm wanting to debate the translation of that verse with you, I'm not. I'm just wondering if you perceive Jesus to be as do other Jehovah's Witnesses that I've known.

That being, "there are gods many and lords many", and so "the Word was with God, and the Word was a god", so then Jesus is a god, but not THE God YHWH. Do you agree with that?

Much love!
 

marks

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Where does this idea come from that a human sacrifice is, by definition, altogether insufficient for the saving of souls? God's will is Sovereign and he is perfectly capable of making his own acceptance criteria. Hence the suffering servant in Isaiah says nothing about also being a deity.
What do you suppose it is about Jesus' death that allows for life for the sinner?

I would answer that by means of Jesus' death, we are able to join to Someone Who is completely separate from our condemned and dead human race, Jesus being a New Man, not born from Adam. Joining ourselves to another dead humanity man just leaves us as dead as we were.

But a Living Man, a New Adam, the Last Adam, He is able to save, because He is Life. Men are dead until joined to Jesus, and Jesus is life. Jesus doesn't require anyone give Him life, He has life in Himself, an endless life.

Much love!
 

marks

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JW's do believe in the divinity of Christ.....we just do not believe in his deity,
How are they different to you? What does it mean that Jesus is divine, and not God? That He is "a god"?

I'd have to ask, how many true gods do you believe in?

Much love!