Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.

"salvation cannot be lost"

True. Salvation not obtained in the end was never lost, but was neglected and not found in the resurrection:

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation.

The error of OSAS is thinking salvation is a free gift given before death of the body.

Our salvation is eternally obtained at death. We are saved and work out our salvation in the fear of the Lord unto death, but if we neglect our salvation by sins and trespasses, then our salvation will not be found in the resurrection and never be made eternal will resurrected bodies.

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

If we neglect and fail to work our our salvation in the fear of the Lord, and circumcise our hearts from the old man of sin, to cut off the carnal mind of the body, then we will not obtain the promise of eternal salvation, which is only obtained by them that obey Him, and not sin unto death of the body, or resurrection while alive on earth.

Only them that are counted worthy to obtain eternal salvation will do so:

But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead.

The OSAS willful humility to boast of being unworthy of that world and resurrection of the dead, condemn their own unworthiness to obtain it, with the foolish words of their own corrupt hearts and defiled minds.

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

OSAS teaches believers to fall short of the prize and fail to win Christ, while 'celebrating' a blind grace that is not of God, but of the devil.

God's grace is given for help in time of need to overcome temptation and sin, and to keep the heart pure of lust, the mind free of sin, and the body under subjection to the law of Christ, that we may obtain in the end.

The crown of eternal life is of righteousness, not of righteousness and sin. Them that willfully eat of the tree of knowledge to do both good and evil, will not eat of the tree of life, for they are not overcomes of the world of sin as Jesus was, and commands us to be:

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

God's grace is not given to them that are taught they have no such need, because the filthy grace they are taught to 'celebrate' will not let God see their sins at all.

atpollard said:

No, just mocking the claim that YOU are living a life free of all sin when Scripture tells us that it is not so. (1 John 1:5-9)

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No need to mock in any sense, at, as I'm sure you know. But it is a sad thing that so many think they have no sin, for sure. As you well know, I'm sure, all who rely on works of the law are under a curse (Galatians 3:10).

atpollard said:

We are preserved by the grace of God through our advocate...

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Exactly. By the will of the Father, through our Advocate (with a capitol A), Jesus, because of His work on the Cross, and by our Helper, the Holy Spirit, Who is always with us sustaining us and even sanctifying us.

atpollard said:

...any claim to persevere without His grace is nonsense.

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Yes, any claim of that nature is nonsense and self-delusion. It's actually a building up of themselves to be their own personal "savior," which is a losing proposition. And like I said, it's in effect thinking we have to be saved again and again and again... and never knowing if we are really saved or not, which is the opposite of the assurance of what is hoped for and therefore opposite of the definition of faith given to us by God in Hebrews 11:1.

Grace and peace to you.

robert derrick said:

God's grace is not given to them that are taught they have no such need, because the filthy grace they are taught to 'celebrate' will not let God see their sins at all.

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LOL!

God's grace IS that "there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1).

But this is certainly not a "license to sin." Paul addresses this very misunderstanding when he says the following:


So God's grace is the freedom from the condemnation because of sin that we would otherwise be deserving of ~ because we still sin (though our desire is to avoid it) because of the sinful nature still within us ~ even after we are saved. Jesus's righteousness is accredited to us, though we still have no righteousness in and of ourselves, because we have believed God, just like our father Abraham (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3). Any other understanding is far outside of what God's Word tells us is true.

Grace and peace to all.

Sproul failed to quote verse 5 which goes with verse 6 completing the thought. Verse 5 gives the basis to Paul's confidence that basis being they had remained faithful in the gospel from the first day until now. The verb confident being in the perfect tense shows Paul's past dealing with them in having seen their faithfulness suggests Paul's present confidence God would continue that good work in them.....their continued faithfulness gave Paul certainty that God's work would continue. Paul's confidence was not in 'perseverance of the Saints' for that idea is not remotely found in the context.

Compare what Paul said to those Christians at Philippi who remained faithful in the gospel to those Christians at Galatia who did not, Galatians 1:6. Instead of saying God would continue that good work in them, Paul said they had "fallen from grace", (Galatians 5:4) and "I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain." (Galatians 4:11) and "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth" (Galatians 3:1).

In Philippians, the basis for Paul’s confidence that God began (which is justification, His call, and rebirth in the Spirit), is doing (which is sanctification), and will bring to completion at the day of Christ (which is glorification) this good work in them is the outward evidence ~ the fruit of the Spirit Galatians 5:22-23 ~ of their changed hearts in the form of their good works and their glorifying God.

It’s a different story in Galatians; Paul is chastising them and exhorting them to resist the same thing that he himself resisted, as we finally see a few verses later:

“Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in ~ who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery ~ to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.” (Galatians 2:4-5)

The perseverance of the saints is a Scriptural certainty not because it is because of man and his own feeble “power” to remain faithful, but it is the power of God and His great faithfulness in preserving a remnant, a people, unto Himself.

Grace and peace to all.

Paul's confidence was not in perseverence of the Saints for that idea is not found in the context, but assumed into the text. Those Philippians remained faithful even while enduring persecution (Phil 1:27ff) and that faithfulness is Paul's basis for his confidence. Those in Galatia had 'fallen from grace' and God does not continue to work in those that do not remain faithful to Him. The Philippians had 'always obeyed" (Phil 2:12-13) following Christ's example of obedience (Phil 2:6-8) and God is working in those who obey, not the disobedient as those in Galatia.

Phil 2:13 it is the Christians' will to work in doing God's will, God does not override man's free will. If God overrides the free will then it would be impossible to disobey, it would have been impossible for those in Galatia to disobey in leaving the NT gospel thereby fall from grace.

Hence Paul's confidence was in God in continuing the work in those Philippians due to their continued free will choice to remain faithful even while persecuted....not compelled by God against their will to persevere in obeying.

Paul's confidence was in God to ensure the perseverance of the saints. Yes, Christians will and work, but because of God's work in the believer. This is what Philippians 2:13 says:


And again, this is just a few verses after Philippians 1:6, where he writes:


Paul's confidence is in God to preserve them to the end, an not in any sense in them to preserve themselves.

Peter says the same things, but even more explicitly:

It's not a question of whether we have "free will" or not. Our will is always free. It's whether we have a regenerate heart or not, whether we are born again of the Spirit or not. Yes, again, the will is always free, but it is the heart that drives the will. If God does not "have mercy (Romans 9)" and does not give (us) a new heart ~ and thus put a new spirit within us, and remove the heart of stone from our flesh ang give us a heart of flesh, and put His Spirit within us ~ then He will not cause us to ~ and thus we won't ~ walk in His statutes and be careful to obey His rules. This is Ezekiel 36:26-27, expressed in the negative; the actual text (God speaking through Ezekiel) is:


Without a doubt, God's grace comes to us free, but we surely do then have a great responsibility, which is to live lives appropriate to and becoming of followers of Christ. And this is fleshed out in the form of glorifying God and enjoying Him in worship, obedience, and good works. Fortunately, Christ is with us always, just as He promised (Matthew 28:20) and we have a Helper, the Holy Spirit, Who brings to our remembrance all that Jesus said (John 14), in doing these things. In the words of that great hymn, Great is Thy Faithfulness, God ~ Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ~ is saving, helping, keeping, and loving us, and He is truly with us to the end! The doctrine of perseverance of the saints is inarguable. It is truth woven throughout Scripture. Thanks be to God.

Grace and peace to all.

The idea of perseverance of the Saints is NOT found in the immediate or remote context. What is in the context is that those Philippians had been faithful from the first day until now. The perfect tense of "confident" shows Paul's past dealings with those Philippians in having seen their faithfulness continuing to abide as being the reason Paul presently abided in confidence that God's work would continue to abide in them. God did not violate the free will of those Philippians making them against their will forcing them to be faithful from the first day unto now whereby God caused them to persevere. Their past and present faithfulness was of those Philippians own choice and was a good indication they would choose of their own free will to continue down the path of faithfulness. As it was the free will choice of those in Galatia not to remain faithful therefore they fell from grace due to their own choice, not something forced upon them against their will by God.

When men obey God's word, when men conform to that word then in that sense God puts a new heart in them. Those that reject God's word, their lives are not conformed therefore a new heart is not in them, they are not in that sense "given" a new heart by God......

Ezekiel 18:31 "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

They can make for themselves a new heart by being obedient to God's word and by their obedience (casting away all their transgressions) in doing what God says is God giving them a new heart. Man cannot make himself a new heart and spirit by himself apart from God's word but man can so align/conform himself to God's word whereby God will make a new heart and spirit within him. In casting away all their transgressions they are in that sense 'saving themselves" resulting in making themselvvs a new heart and spirit. Same idea is found in Acts 2:40 when Peter commanded those lost people to "save yourselves from this untoward generation". Man cannot save himself by himself apart from God's word but those who choose to obey/comply/conform to God's word in repenting and being baptized God can then save them. By their conforming to God's word is how God creates a new heart and spirit in man. This creating a new heart and spirit in man is not done against man's will, not done apart from God's word and not done apart from man obediently conforming to that word. Their dying in Ezekiel 18:31 would be IMPOSSIBLE if perseverance of the Saints were true, yet their dying or not was a choice left up to them as to whether or not they would cast away all their transgressions. "why will ye die, O house of Israel?" God's question here implies it was in Israel's control if they die or not, no perseverance forced upon them. Ezekiel 18:32 why would God have no pleasure in the lost dying if God is in complete control of who is saved or lost?



Since God/Holy Spirit does not violate man's free will, men can choose to become unfaithful and fall away, fall from grace becoming lost (Galatians 5:4). God does not force the Christian against his will to 'persevere' against his will.....If (conditional word) a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If (conditional word) ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. John 15:6-7. Abiding in Christ or not abiding in Christ is a free will choice. God/Holy Spirit does not force men against their will to abide in Christ so they may 'persevere'.

If perserverance of the Saints were true, then it would be IMPOSSIBLE for the Christian to ever disobey God and that is simply not the case as seen by examples of those Christians who did disobey and in some cases fall away becoming lost. All the admonitions and warnings (2 Peter 1:10; 1 Corinthians 10:12) and warnings against apostasy would be senseless making those warning/admonitions lies. A promise is never made to the Christian that he is unconditionally guaranteed to persevere and be saved regardless of what the Christian does/how he acts.

Context of John 14:26, Jesus is speaking to His Apostles promising them alone the Comforter in bringing to the Apostles remembrance of all thing taught them. Jesus did not make this promise to anyone else back then or today...just the Apostles.

Ernest T. Bass said:

The idea of perseverance of the Saints is NOT found in the immediate or remote context.

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It absolutely is. But your opinion is noted; we will agree to disagree.

Ernest T. Bass said:

What is in the context is that those Philippians had been faithful from the first day until now. The perfect tense of "confident" shows Paul's past dealings with those Philippians in having seen their faithfulness continuing to abide as being the reason Paul presently abided in confidence that God's work would continue to abide in them.

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Agreed. Absolutely.

Ernest T. Bass said:

God did not violate the free will of those Philippians making them against their will forcing them to be faithful from the first day unto now whereby God caused them to persevere.

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The problem is ~ Earnest T. ~ that we're talking about two different things. Yes, nobody (much less God) violates anyone's free will or makes anyone go against their will "by forcing them to be faithful" ~ which is a ridiculous notion because one cannot be forced against his or her will and be faithful at the same time; indeed, if one is forced against his or her will, he is still unfaithful, to God but also even to himself or herself. But one cannot ~ will not ~ be faithful to God unless his or her heart is first changed ~ he or she is born again of the Spirit and is thus of God ~ which can only happen of God's grace. But once that does happen, then the person will be wholly inclined towards God and ~ though he or she, because of the sin that still is within, may fail from time to time (sin) ~ desire, from the heart, the glory of God and perfect obedience of Him and His commands.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Their past and present faithfulness was of those Philippians own choice and was a good indication they would choose of their own free will to continue down the path of faithfulness.

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Absolutely. Their choice to continue with them was outward evidence and that God had begun His good work (conforming them to Christ) in them and thus of their true faithfulness to the Lord.

Ernest T. Bass said:

As it was the free will choice of those in Galatia not to remain faithful therefore they fell from grace due to their own choice, not something forced upon them against their will by God.

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Agreed, but again, nobody's "forcing" anything on anybody. If any individual were to fall, it would be evident that God had never begun that good work in them. Which is what John is telling us when he speaks of those who have left the fellowship in Christ enjoyed by him and the believers he is writing to in his first epistle:

Ernest T. Bass said:

When men obey God's word, when men conform to that word then in that sense God puts a new heart in them.

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This is absolutely contrary to God's Word. God's work precedes man's:

Ernest T. Bass said:

Those that reject God's word, their lives are not conformed therefore a new heart is not in them, they are not in that sense "given" a new heart by God...

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Not absolutely. If this were the case, no one would ever be saved. This is the natural state of the human heart, bequeathed to all of us because of Adam's sin. But God choose some to have mercy and compassion on. These are His elect. And this is what Paul says in Ephesians 2:4-9.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Ezekiel 18:31 "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

They can make for themselves a new heart by being obedient to God's word and by their obedience (casting away all their transgressions) in doing what God says is God giving them a new heart.

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Absolutely the reverse of what is Biblically true. This is a general call to repentance, not a call to save oneself, which is impossible. Reading this in the manner that you present would constitute a direct conflict with Ezekiel Himself in Ezekiel 11:19-20, where God, through Ezekiel, again says, as in Ezekiel 36:26-27, quoted above:

Ernest T. Bass said:

Man cannot make himself a new heart and spirit by himself apart from God's word but man can so align/conform himself to God's word whereby God will make a new heart and spirit within him.

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God's putting a new heart in them and putting His Spirit within them is the initial act in salvation. Man's walking in God's statutes and keeping His rules and obeying them is the direct result. Salvation is of the Lord.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Man cannot make for himself a new heart, but In casting away all their transgressions they are in that sense 'saving themselves'

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I'll grant that in a manner of speaking, but really, in "saving themselves," in the context of both Ezekiel in chapter 18 of his prophecy and Peter in Acts 2, the person who does this is confirming, even unto themselves as well as others, that God has saved them, given them a new heart and has caused them to walk in His statutes and obey His rules.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Since God/Holy Spirit does not violate man's free will, men can choose to become unfaithful and fall away, fall from grace becoming lost (Galatians 5:4).

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No one's free will is violated in any way. But it's the heart ~ the nature; the inner self ~ that drives the will. And if it is not changed from its natural state/condition, which, again, is the direct result of Adam's fall from grace, then the person will remain wholly inclined against God and will freely choose to remain in rebellion against Him. Here again is a good place to quote 1 John 2:19 (above).

Ernest T. Bass said:

God does not force the Christian against his will to 'persevere' against his will...

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Of course not. But man is able to persevere in the faith only by the power of God, Who, by His Spirit, enables man to do so, as Jude says:

Ernest T. Bass said:

..If (conditional word) a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If (conditional word) ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. John 15:6-7. Abiding in Christ or not abiding in Christ is a free will choice. God/Holy Spirit does not force men against their will to abide in Christ so they may 'persevere'.

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Agreed, but their free will choice will always be ~ and remain ~ not to abide in Christ unless... they are reborn of the Spirit, and thus, God gives them a new heart, a new spirit, removes the heart of stone from their flesh and gives them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in His statutes and keep His rules and obey them. Only upon that event are they His people, and He their God.

Ernest T. Bass said:

If perseverance of the Saints were true, then it would be IMPOSSIBLE for the Christian to ever disobey God...

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Not true at all. Of course it is possible to sin ~ to fall short of the glory of God, as Paul puts it in Romans 6. But perseverance is about striving against sin and toward the glory of God, not perfect freedom/abstinence from sin against or disobedience of God. Indeed, if we were perfectly free from sin, there would be no need for perseverance. Yes, that's part of the misunderstanding, here, too.

Okay, that's quite enough. Thank you for your thoughts, ETB. Grace and peace to you.

Phil 1:5-6 "For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"

Again, the basis for Paul's confidence is not perserverance of the Saints for that idea is not in this text nor any Bible text. What is in this passage is a SYNERGY taking place between God and man.....man's role is having a faithful obedience and God's role working in those obedient men to fruition. No monergism God working in man against man's will or man doing nothing while God works in man.

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Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

Ezekiel 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

These two verses do not contradict each other for they too show a synergism taking place between BOTH God and man for man to have a new heart and new spirit. Man doing nothing gets man nothing but lost. For man to have a new heart and spirit requires man to conform to God's word, and in obedience man comes to God Who then gives man a new heart and spirit. As one person eloquently put it "Man cannot indeed create either a new heart or a new spirit; God only can give them to anyone. But a man can and should come to God to receive them; he can repent and turn to God and thus allow both heart and spirit to be renewed by the Spirit of God." (Thomas Leal: The Preacher's Complete Homiletic Commentary).

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More verses showing there is a synergism between God in man in man being saved:
Acts 2:40 "save yourselves"; 1 Timothy 4:16 "save thyself"; 2 Corinthians 7:1 "let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit"; 1 Peter 1:22 "Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth"; James 4:8 "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded."
Obviously man has a role in his own salvation. Therefore there is no perseverance of the Saints where God acts monergistically upon man causing man to obey and perservere against his will or that God monergistically acts upon SOME men giving them a new heart/spirit while leaving other men lost not having a new heart/spirit thereby making God culpable Himself for their being lost.

The Christian is to strive to enter the strait gate (Matthew 7:13), is to strive to persevere against sin but there is no unconditional guarantee that the Christian will perservere. The Christian can fall away, become an apostate for not striving, for not perservering and God has not put an onus upon Himself to see to it monergistically that the Christian for a unconditional certainty perserveres against the will of the Christian. There is a synergy between man and God; man obeys and God saves....man quits obeying God does not save.

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Jude 1:21 as long as the Christian CONDITIONALLY keeps himself in the love of God, that is, to keep God's commands (John 15:10; John 14:15; 1 John 5:2) and continues to walk in the light (1 John 1:7) the Christian will not stumble and God guards them from stumbling. Again, synergism here between man keeping himself in the love of God and God guarding from stumbling. If the Christian quits obeying God, quits walking in the light, God does not monergistically, unconditionally keep the Christian from stumbling against his will. The context of Jude is warning Christians of false teachers. No need for the warning if God will monergistically see to it that the Christian is guaranteed to perservere. God is ABLE to keep the Christian from stumbling and He is only able to do so as long as the Christian keeps himself in God's love. Again, no need for Jude to give warnings if there is absolutely no danger, if it were impossible for the Christian to stumble and fall away. The warnings are given because the potential of falling away exists.


Thank you for your time and kind words.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Phil 1:5-6 "For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"

Again, the basis for Paul's confidence is not perseverance of the Saints for that idea is not in this text nor any Bible text. What is in this passage is a SYNERGY taking place between God and man.....man's role is having a faithful obedience and God's role working in those obedient men to fruition. No monergism God working in man against man's will or man doing nothing while God works in man.

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And again, I understand your opinion.

I disagree with the idea of "synergy," as you present it (though not the idea of synergy altogether; more on that in a moment) because of what I said in my previous post about talking about two different things. Man contributes nothing to his salvation. He responds to God's salvation, for sure, in the form of obedience and works. But he contributes nothing to make it happen. As I said, more on that in a moment, but salvation is of the Lord.

The idea of monergism and "God working against man's will or man doing nothing while God works in man" is really quite ridiculous, quite frankly. I agree with you that that's not the case.

And I understand your disagreement, but the idea of perseverance of the saints is in fact very strongly conveyed, here and elsewhere in scripture. God started this good work of salvation in us, and He will ~ will ~ bring it to completion (at the day of Christ). The same concept is in view (among other things) in all Paul's (and Peter's, and John's, and Hebrews, which may also be Paul's but we are not sure) letters:


Now, to the idea of synergism, yes, we are called to persevere. Paul exhorts us to "take up the full armor of God" (Ephesians 6). Peter tells us to "humble (ourselves) under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time He may exalt (us), casting all (our) anxieties on Him... (b)e sober-minded; be watchful" (1 Peter 5:7-8). John tells us to "love one another" and "walk according to His commandments" (2 John 1). The writer of Hebrews tells us to "lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and... run with endurance the race that is set before us" (Hebrews 12:1-2). So, yes, WE persevere. But this is possible for us to do because of the work of the Spirit in us throughout our Christian walk. Thanks be to God, He, by the working of His Spirit within us, enables us to do that ~ He keeps us from stumbling, by His power ~ exactly as Jude says in verses 24 and 25 of his letter, in the form of a doxology:

Ernest T. Bass said:

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

Ezekiel 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

These two verses do not contradict each other for they too show a synergism taking place between BOTH God and man for man to have a new heart and new spirit. Man doing nothing gets man nothing but lost. For man to have a new heart and spirit requires man to conform to God's word, and in obedience man comes to God Who then gives man a new heart and spirit. As one person eloquently put it "Man cannot indeed create either a new heart or a new spirit; God only can give them to anyone. But a man can and should come to God to receive them; he can repent and turn to God and thus allow both heart and spirit to be renewed by the Spirit of God." (Thomas Leal: The Preacher's Complete Homiletic Commentary).

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Okay, so I'm going to wrap this up, here, but this speaks to the rest of your post, too, as well as the part quoted here:

I agree that the two verses do not contradict each other, but because they are talking about the two different things that I have been talking about, previously in this post and in previous posts. Ezekiel 36:26 ~ and Ezekiel 11:19 ~ are describing God's working salvation in man, while Ezekiel 18:31 is talking about our call to holiness and our perseverance. To be sure, our perseverance follows God's working of His great salvation in us, but the two are not intertwined. So, that statement from the Leal commentary is very Arminian and wrong. Our repentance and turning to God is the action (which is not "forced" by any stretch of the imagination, but inevitable because of the new heart given by God by His Spirit) taken by the believer after this conversion ~ being given a new heart and spirit, birth by the Spirit, renewed and thus of God ~ has taken place. Prior to that happening he (or she, of course) is spiritually dead (which is the natural state of all mankind from birth due to the fall of Adam, the federal head of the human race) and therefore unwilling to repent, turn to God, and believe ~ unable to do so because of his being dead in his sin, the same death that Adam and Eve experienced the very day they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, just as God told them would happen in Genesis 2:17. And because Eve is the mother of all the living, we inherit, from our own birth, this state they entered into that day.

Grace and peace to you.

atpollard said:

You should avoid explaining to people what THEY believe ... you are very bad at it.
Your erroneous opinions are duly noted.
[shrug]

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I cannot explain what someone believes, until they do so.

Still waiting on what you believe the fear of the Lord is.

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God.

Filthy grace dreamers never move on to perfection from repentance of dead works, because they have never repented of dead works.

By their own testimony they are yet still in sins and so are still repenting. OSAS is for them continuing in sins, and so continuing in repentance, because they have never repented.

They are always repenting, but never repented.

They are ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth of eternal salvation for them that obey Him, and so they are ever repenting and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth of eternal salvation for them that have repented.

They are ever stuck in repenting mode.

robert derrick said:

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God.

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Hebrews 6:1 is about not relying on works to achieve/keep salvation, which seems to be the thing you can't keep from doing.

robert derrick said:

Filthy grace dreamers...

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Yeah, like I said, I really have no idea what a "filthy grace dreamer" even is. But God's grace is truly amazing. Nevertheless, I guess Paul ~ the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15), who, even after he became a Christian, knew full well nothing good dwelled in him, because he had the desire to do what is right but not the ability to carry it out, that he did not do the good he wanted, but the evil he did not want was what he kept on doing, because of the sin that dwelled within him (Romans 7:18-20) ~ was thankful for God's grace (unmerited favor) despite his sin. This is how he was able to say, about himself and all who are in Christ, that there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, and that in all these things (tribulation, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, danger, or sword), we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. And he was sure, as am I, that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8).

robert derrick said:

By their own testimony they are yet still in sins and so are still repenting... They are ever stuck in repenting mode.

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Well, still sinful, for if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8), but not "in sins," or unrepentant of our sins. The Christian life is a life of continual repentance, for sure. And this is exactly why John goes on to say that if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). Though it may seem like semantics to those who just don't want to see, there is a big difference in being repentant and repented. One great day we will be fully repented, and that will be a great day indeed. But this is the "now and not yet" of the Gospel:


So, we know for certain that we will be glorified just as Christ is at His return, though this is not yet reality. So, even now, we can live in that certainty ~ faith, the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1) ~ that despite our sin, our inheritance is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for us (1 Peter 1:4).

For those who are relying in their works, it would be good to keep in mind Jesus's parable of the rich young man in Matthew 19. Having told thise parable, He then told His disciples (and us) saying, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” And then when the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Grace and peace to all.

PinSeeker said:

Hebrews 6:1 is about not relying on works to achieve/keep salvation, which seems to be the thing you can't keep from doing.



Yeah, like I said, I really have no idea what a "filthy grace dreamer" even is. But God's grace is truly amazing. Nevertheless, I guess Paul ~ the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15), who, even after he became a Christian, knew full well nothing good dwelled in him, because he had the desire to do what is right but not the ability to carry it out, that he did not do the good he wanted, but the evil he did not want was what he kept on doing, because of the sin that dwelled within him (Romans 7:18-20) ~ was thankful for God's grace (unmerited favor) despite his sin. This is how he was able to say, about himself and all who are in Christ, that there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, and that in all these things (tribulation, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, danger, or sword), we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. And he was sure, as am I, that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8).


Well, still sinful, for if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8), but not "in sins," or unrepentant of our sins. The Christian life is a life of continual repentance, for sure. And this is exactly why John goes on to say that if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). Though it may seem like semantics to those who just don't want to see, there is a big difference in being repentant and repented. One great day we will be fully repented, and that will be a great day indeed. But this is the "now and not yet" of the Gospel:

NOW ~ we have been saved, justified by God by imputation of the righteousness of Christ, born again of the Spirit.

NOT YET ~ we are being saved and by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5)... (t)he word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God (1 Corinthians 1:18).​

So, we know for certain that we will be glorified just as Christ is at His return, though this is not yet reality. So, even now, we can live in that certainty ~ faith, the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1) ~ that despite our sin, our inheritance is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for us (1 Peter 1:4).

For those who are relying in their works, it would be good to keep in mind Jesus's parable of the rich young man in Matthew 19. Having told thise parable, He then told His disciples (and us) saying, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” And then when the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Grace and peace to all.

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One great day we will be fully repented, and that will be a great day indeed. But this is the "now and not yet" of the Gospel.

Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe: As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children, That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

Does this describe your life?

Is this the testimony of one who is still waiting to be 'fully repented'?

robert derrick said:

Does this describe your life? Is this the testimony of one who is still waiting to be 'fully repented'?

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Yes, and yes, Robert.

Do you think, Robert, for one second, that Paul, in saying his/their conduct toward the believers was holy and righteous and blameless, is saying that he was/is without sin? Apparently you do, and if so, you are very mistaken. He most certainly did not, and neither should you. Are you without sin, Robert?

Grace and peace to you, Robert.

PinSeeker said:

Yes, and yes, Robert.

Do you think, Robert, for one second, that Paul, in saying his/their conduct toward the believers was holy and righteous and blameless, is saying that he was/is without sin? Apparently you do, and if so, you are very mistaken. He most certainly did not, and neither should you. Are you without sin, Robert?

Grace and peace to you, Robert.

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So then. You are living a holy and blameless life in Christ?

Yes, the Holy Spirit is enabling me to do so, but that does not mean I am without sin or that I sin no more. Consider what Paul writes to the Colossians:


You should notice, Robert, that in what he writes, Paul is not saying that we, in this life, are actually holy and blameless and above reproach (without sin), but that we are reconciled ~ despite our sin ~ to God in Christ, because we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ. And in the life to come, we will be presented as such, having been sanctified through the course of our earthly lives. The reconciled part is past (we ARE reconciled), but the presenting is yet to come (we WILL BE presented holy, blameless, above reproach). It is in the same context as 1 Corinthians 1:18 ~ "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

Now. Robert, I answered your questions. Now you answer mine... but it will probably require some humility on your part. I will understand if you decline. If you do so, though, I would advise remembering the Colossians 1 passage above and 1 John 1:8 ~ "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" ~ in doing so.

Grace and peace to you.

PinSeeker said:

Yes, the Holy Spirit is enabling me to do so, but that does not mean I am without sin or that I sin no more. Consider what Paul writes to the Colossians:

"And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, He has now reconciled in His body of flesh by His death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before Him..." (Colossians 1:21-22)​

You should notice, Robert, that in what he writes, Paul is not saying that we, in this life, are actually holy and blameless and above reproach (without sin), but that we are reconciled ~ despite our sin ~ to God in Christ, because we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ. And in the life to come, we will be presented as such, having been sanctified through the course of our earthly lives. The reconciled part is past (we ARE reconciled), but the presenting is yet to come (we WILL BE presented holy, blameless, above reproach). It is in the same context as 1 Corinthians 1:18 ~ "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

Now. Robert, I answered your questions. Now you answer mine... but it will probably require some humility on your part. I will understand if you decline. If you do so, though, I would advise remembering the Colossians 1 passage above and 1 John 1:8 ~ "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" ~ in doing so.

Grace and peace to you.

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Yep. I knew it. Just couldn't hold out for very long, before the wrested, twisting, and squirming comes into play.

The closer OSAS gets to even appearing to being living righteously and unblameably on earth, the more they must cover themselves from appearing to not be continuing in sins.

Once they get a chance to earn some respect as a saint in Christ Jesus, they bail.

The real question is why? I mean, if someone is indeed is indeed obeying the commandment to love God with all the heart and to live righteously by faith, even as He is righteous, then why be so against saying so? Why must excuses and false doctrine allowing for sins be brought in?

It is in the context of salvation: The Pseudo-Security of unconditionally saved by faith alone is deathly afraid of eternal salvation being only for them that obey.

They have no problem with talk of doing good and 'hating' sin, but they want nothing at all to do with having their souls being dependent upon their obedience to the faith:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.