Was Jesus a spirit being before coming to earth as a human?

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Was Jesus a spirit being before coming to earth?


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keithr

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Acts 14, Revelation 22, Luke 22, Exodus 3

@keithr
Have you not heard of verse numbers? You're not making it easy for us - getting this out of you is like extracting teeth! You should let the light shine, not hide it under a bushel (Matthew 5:14-16).

To support your statement "angels and men: do not worship me it is evil" you've generously said "Acts 14, Revelation 22".
Acts 14 - presumably verses 11 to 18:

(11) When the multitude saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voice, saying in the language of Lycaonia, “The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!”
(12) They called Barnabas “Jupiter”, and Paul “Mercury”, because he was the chief speaker.
(13) The priest of Jupiter, whose temple was in front of their city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, and would have made a sacrifice along with the multitudes.
(14) But when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of it, they tore their clothes, and sprang into the multitude, crying out,
(15) “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to the living God, who made the sky, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them;
(16) who in the generations gone by allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways.
(17) Yet he didn’t leave himself without witness, in that he did good and gave you rains from the sky and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.”
(18) Even saying these things, they hardly stopped the multitudes from making a sacrifice to them.​

This says the people thought Paul and Barnabas were Gods and wanted to make sacrifices to them. Paul said they should turn from "these vain things" - he didn't say it was evil. Anyway, I've already pointed out that Jesus will be king of all mankind, not just the Jews, and that he will be the king in God's kingdom, until he turns the kingdom over to God. Christians will share in the kingdom rule - we are a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9), symbolically revealed in vision to John as sitting on 24 thrones around God's throne (Revelation 4:4).

Revelation 22 - presumably verse 28 and 29:

(8) Now I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. When I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who had shown me these things.
(9) He said to me, “See you don’t do it! I am a fellow bondservant with you and with your brothers, the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”​

So the angels says 'don't worship me for I am a servant of Jesus and God just like you, other prophets and your fellow Christians'. He doesn't say it is evil, just that he/we should worship God.

But for a third time, what's the point you're trying to make by stating "angels and men: do not worship me it is evil"? I don't see any connection with proving that Jesus is king of the Jews - king of God's kingdom maybe, but not "king of the Jews".

To support your statement "Satan: asks Jesus for permission to test Peter" you've generously said "Luke 22". Presumably, out of the 71 verses you mean verse 31:
(WEB):
(31) The Lord said, “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have all of you, that he might sift you as wheat,
(32) but I prayed for you, that your faith wouldn’t fail. You, when once you have turned again, establish your brothers.”​
(TLV):
(31) “Simon, Simon! Indeed, satan has demanded to sift you all like wheat.​

Note that the "you" is plural, hence the above two better translations (than the KJV) say that Satan wanted to "sift" all of the disciples, not just Peter. (This is why I probably couldn't find it, that and Jesus calls him Simon rather than Peter.) Jesus does not say that Satan asked him - I would presume that he asked God, like he did with Job. You're assuming that Jesus is God and that therefore Satan asked Jesus. Either way it doesn't mean that Jesus was claiming to be the king of the Jews.

Your generous contribution of "Exodus 3" is presumably to indicate where in the Bible it says "tell them I AM has sent you". I thought you were implying that Jesus had said that (in the New Testament) - I was confused about that because you had written so cryptically that it was a struggle to figure out what you were trying to say! So I now think you were trying to say Jesus is God and therefore Jesus was the king of the Jews at some point (not any more - the chief priests declared, “We have no king but Caesar!”, John 19:15). It doesn't support Jesus claiming to be the king of the Jews - you've still not found any verse where Jesus claims that.
 

Robert Gwin

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No. That's not what I'm saying. God sent His Son. That wouldn't be possible if He didn't have a Son to send. And that Son wasn't created. First born of creation can equally mean they source and beginning of all creation because He is the Creator. There is more scripture to substantiate that than the JW twist.

It can perhaps, but there are 2 other scriptures that indicate that, Pro 8:22 and Rev 3:14 and the fact that Jesus is begotten, you are aware of what begotten means correct? Jesus was the first spirit son, Adam was the first human son, both were created. So what I am saying is either true or false, but that is the scriptural evidence.
 

keithr

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additionally:

Genesis 3, 4, 6, 15, 19, Exodus 16, 20, 23, 30, 34; Deuteronomy 6, Isaiah 42, 43, 48, Matthew 4, 6, 10, 18, Mark 4, Luke 4, 24, John 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 17, 20, 21, Acts 2, 4, 10, Romans 1, 11, 12, 1 Corinthians 3, 6, Hebrews 1
If you've searched and found relevant verses then why don't you tell us what those verses are? I'm not going to wade through all those chapters trying to figure out what verses you were thinking support your view.

and the point is the central point of Christianity: Christ is God; in HIM we put our trust
There we disagree - Jesus is not God.

Paul quotes from Scripture applying it to Jesus in Hebrews 2:13 (WEB):

Again, “I will put my trust in him.” Again, “Behold, here I am with the children whom God has given me.”​

Psalms 22:8 (WEB):
“He trusts in Yahweh. Let him deliver him. Let him rescue him, since he delights in him.”​

So Jesus puts his trust in God, and so should we.
 

Robert Gwin

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You are still expressing your own understanding. And where did you come up with the word "union" in place of "One" in John 17?

Nonetheless, you are referring to the words and your understanding of language that has been confused by God, and your confusion is apparent: "God is One God." And unless you are willing to call Jesus a liar for repeatedly referring to Himself as "I am", then you need to take Him at His word...even if you can't wrap your head around the concept.

You don't have to completely understand, and you don't have to have all the answers. But relying on your own understanding, confused language, and your own conjecture, is not working. It has you making the contradictions you say should never be, even taking a wild guess that it "could all mean something else." You should not be telling anyone anything--you should be asking questions. In humility.

What is your point with I am sir, I have said that hundreds of times, and likely yourself as well. What do the verses say that I posted? Am I teaching something that is not Biblical fact?
 

Robert Gwin

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Amen, not only that, God physically knew the man Christ Jesus at the creation of man.

This is the "us" God was speaking to in Genesis.

Adam was made in the likeness of the man Christ Jesus, who was there with God as a man and blueprint for Adam.

To avoid any confusion sir, Jesus did not become a man, until after his birth as a human. Your wording seems to indicate differently. I will further expound that he returned to heaven the same way he left, as a spirit being as all those who reside in heaven are.
 

Brakelite

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It can perhaps, but there are 2 other scriptures that indicate that, Pro 8:22 and Rev 3:14 and the fact that Jesus is begotten, you are aware of what begotten means correct? Jesus was the first spirit son, Adam was the first human son, both were created. So what I am saying is either true or false, but that is the scriptural evidence.
I don't see any evidence in scripture that indicates the son, was a created being. Hence why He was described as begotten, and in this instance at least, why the ECFs called the Father unbegotten. Begotten in scripture means in every case I am aware of, brought forth. Monogenes does have the connotation unique, it also incorporates the idea of generated as in childbirth. We cannot of course imagine that the Father had sexual relations with a heavenly mother in order to bring forth a child. But the scriptures do not explain how the Son was brought forth. But it does say He was. And He was the Creator of all things. And if He was the Creator of all things, then He Himself must be excluded from creation, being outside of all creation and separate from it. He became a part of creation only at the incarnation.
 

Truther

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  1. Just as it has been made manifest.
  2. No, you misunderstand. Adam is not made manifest of Adam, but is made manifest as the first revelation of Jesus Christ (He is the Beginning and the End). Which does not mean he was Jesus either, but rather made in His likeness as a revelation of all things, the culmination of which ends in the Judgement, the last will and testament, as it is written.
Actually, the first Adam was made in the likeness of the last Adam...body, soul and spirit.

This is how man was made in the image of God.
 

Truther

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God is a spirit being (John 4:24), Adam was a man, so clearly there was no physcial likeness at all. I've always understood it to mean that mankind was made to have the same character as God (loving, righteous, just, caring, generous, wise, sense of humour, appreciation of beauty, etc.).

Interestingly it is not until Adam is 130 years old that he has a son, Seth, who is said to be in Adam's image and likeness (same Hebrew words as in Genesis 1:26 - tselem and demuth) - Genesis 5:3 (WEB):

Adam lived one hundred thirty years, and became the father of a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.​

When it talks about making idols with a physical image or likeness, e.g. Exodus 20:4 (KJV):

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:​

that is using different Hebrew words (pecel and temuwnah).

Or Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image {pecel}, neither shall ye set up [any] image {matstsebah} of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God.​
Deuteronomy 27:15
Cursed [be] the man that maketh [any] graven {pecel} or molten image {maccekah}, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth [it] in [a] secret [place].​
 

Truther

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God is a spirit being (John 4:24), Adam was a man, so clearly there was no physcial likeness at all. I've always understood it to mean that mankind was made to have the same character as God (loving, righteous, just, caring, generous, wise, sense of humour, appreciation of beauty, etc.).

Interestingly it is not until Adam is 130 years old that he has a son, Seth, who is said to be in Adam's image and likeness (same Hebrew words as in Genesis 1:26 - tselem and demuth) - Genesis 5:3 (WEB):

Adam lived one hundred thirty years, and became the father of a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.​

When it talks about making idols with a physical image or likeness, e.g. Exodus 20:4 (KJV):

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:​

that is using different Hebrew words (pecel and temuwnah).

Or Leviticus 26:1



Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image {pecel}, neither shall ye set up [any] image {matstsebah} of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God.​
Deuteronomy 27:15
Cursed [be] the man that maketh [any] graven {pecel} or molten image {maccekah}, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth [it] in [a] secret [place].​

God is a Spirit, man is not.

Man is created in the image of the man Christ Jesus(body, soul and spirit), making Jesus the firstborn of creation.

This is the other person in the "us" that God was speaking to as he created man.
 

Truther

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To avoid any confusion sir, Jesus did not become a man, until after his birth as a human. Your wording seems to indicate differently. I will further expound that he returned to heaven the same way he left, as a spirit being as all those who reside in heaven are.
Jesus never became a man.

Jesus always was a man.

He was even slain from the foundation of the world.

He was even born before any living thing reproduced.

Now you know why he has preeminence and what first and the last means.
 

keithr

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You are still expressing your own understanding. And where did you come up with the word "union" in place of "One" in John 17?
I believe that's from the NWT (New World Translation), a translation that Jehovah's Witnesses favour.

Nonetheless, you are referring to the words and your understanding of language that has been confused by God, and your confusion is apparent: "God is One God." And unless you are willing to call Jesus a liar for repeatedly referring to Himself as "I am", then you need to take Him at His word...even if you can't wrap your head around the concept.
If you take Jesus at his word, then he says that he is not God, but he does claim to be God's son. Jesus doesn't refer to himself as "I am"; that expression is just part of a normal sentence. I don't find any evidence in the Bible of Jesus referring to himself by God's name YHVH nor by the "I am" from Exodus 3:14 - the Hebrew word hawyaw, which means 'to exist', 'to be', 'become', 'come to pass', 'happen'.

The "I am" expression, that you think is Jesus saying God's name, in John 8:58 ("Before Abraham was, I am") in Greek is ego eimi. The exact same Greek words are used in Matthew 22:32, which is quoting Exodus 3:6:

(32) I am [ego eimi] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.​

However, Exodus 3:6 is:
(6) Moreover he said, I [am] the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.​

where "I am" is the Hebrew word anokiy, meaning just "I" - the "am" is not there but is just inserted by the translators to make it better English.

There are other occurrences of ego eimi where it is also translated as "I am" but clearly the person saying it is not God, e.g.:

Matthew 8:9
For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.​
Matthew 20:15
Isn’t it lawful for me to do what I want to with what I own? Or is your eye evil, because I am good?’​

Matthew 24:5
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.​

Luke 1:18-19
And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.​

John the Baptist:
John 1:27
He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.​
Acts 13:25
And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.​

Acts 21:39
But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.​

Nobody thinks that the centurion, Zacharias, John the Baptist or Paul were God, yet they all used "ego eimi" in a sentence, so likewise there is no reason to suppose that Jesus was God just because he used the same expression. And this is all before we realise that they were not speaking in Greek, but most likely in Aramaic.
 

keithr

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God is a Spirit, man is not.

Man is created in the image of the man Christ Jesus(body, soul and spirit), making Jesus the firstborn of creation.

This is the other person in the "us" that God was speaking to as he created man.
Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: ...

The "our" in that verse means that God and the person being spoken to by God must have had a similar "image". God and His Son Jesus do have the same character - and they are one in union and purpose.
 

ScottA

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What is your point with I am sir, I have said that hundreds of times, and likely yourself as well. What do the verses say that I posted? Am I teaching something that is not Biblical fact?

Indeed, it would be good to retrace your teachings and make a change.

Here is a brief explanation of "I am" from God's word:

"I am" is a term used by God to identify Himself, which began here:

Exodus 3:14
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”​

...And then Jesus, not causally as you or I might use the term, but when specifically identifying Himself, said the same (just to name a few):

John 8:18
I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”

John 8:23
And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”​
 
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ScottA

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Actually, the first Adam was made in the likeness of the last Adam...body, soul and spirit.

This is how man was made in the image of God.
Why then did you ask, when I told you as much:
What is the Spirit likeness?

Was Adam a Spirit?

  • Just as it has been made manifest.
  • No, you misunderstand. Adam is not made manifest of Adam, but is made manifest as the first revelation of Jesus Christ (He is the Beginning and the End). Which does not mean he was Jesus either, but rather made in His likeness as a revelation of all things, the culmination of which ends in the Judgement, the last will and testament, as it is written.
 

ScottA

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I believe that's from the NWT (New World Translation), a translation that Jehovah's Witnesses favour.


If you take Jesus at his word, then he says that he is not God, but he does claim to be God's son. Jesus doesn't refer to himself as "I am"; that expression is just part of a normal sentence. I don't find any evidence in the Bible of Jesus referring to himself by God's name YHVH nor by the "I am" from Exodus 3:14 - the Hebrew word hawyaw, which means 'to exist', 'to be', 'become', 'come to pass', 'happen'.

The "I am" expression, that you think is Jesus saying God's name, in John 8:58 ("Before Abraham was, I am") in Greek is ego eimi. The exact same Greek words are used in Matthew 22:32, which is quoting Exodus 3:6:

(32) I am [ego eimi] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.​

However, Exodus 3:6 is:
(6) Moreover he said, I [am] the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.​

where "I am" is the Hebrew word anokiy, meaning just "I" - the "am" is not there but is just inserted by the translators to make it better English.

There are other occurrences of ego eimi where it is also translated as "I am" but clearly the person saying it is not God, e.g.:

Matthew 8:9
For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.​
Matthew 20:15
Isn’t it lawful for me to do what I want to with what I own? Or is your eye evil, because I am good?’​

Matthew 24:5
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.​

Luke 1:18-19
And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.​

John the Baptist:
John 1:27
He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.​
Acts 13:25
And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.​

Acts 21:39
But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.​

Nobody thinks that the centurion, Zacharias, John the Baptist or Paul were God, yet they all used "ego eimi" in a sentence, so likewise there is no reason to suppose that Jesus was God just because he used the same expression. And this is all before we realise that they were not speaking in Greek, but most likely in Aramaic.
God has confused all language, thus a word study as you have presented it is of no value. That is not spiritual discernment, which is the only means of knowing the truth. That alone should make you doubtful. Nonetheless, you are not connecting all the dots. Perhaps this will help you get off your dependence on confused language: Pay particularly close attention to John 8:18.

Here is a brief explanation of "I am" from God's word:

"I am" is a term used by God to identify Himself, which began here:

Exodus 3:14
And God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”​

...And then Jesus, not causally as you or I might use the term, but when specifically identifying Himself, said the same (just to name a few):

John 8:18
I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”​

John 8:23
And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.​

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”​
 

Truther

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Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: ...

The "our" in that verse means that God and the person being spoken to by God must have had a similar "image". God and His Son Jesus do have the same character - and they are one in union and purpose.
We are only the image of God via the body of Jesus. This is why Jesus was the firstborn of all creation. Adam was made in the firstborns image, not divinity.
 

keithr

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We are only the image of God via the body of Jesus. This is why Jesus was the firstborn of all creation. Adam was made in the firstborns image, not divinity.
So who are the at least two beings mentioned when God said "our image"? One was God. Jesus is not God, or else God would have said "I will make man in my image".

Jesus was not a man when he created Adam. He wasn't "made flesh" until Mary conceived while still a virgin, around 4,000 years later. And Jesus is not a man now either.
 
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Robert Gwin

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Jesus never became a man.

Jesus always was a man.

He was even slain from the foundation of the world.

He was even born before any living thing reproduced.

Now you know why he has preeminence and what first and the last means.

So you would fall into the category of believing Jesus was physical prior to coming to earth. Thanks for your input sir.