The Christian Resurrection vs. the Jew's Resurrection

2 Corinthians 4:7-18
2 Corinthians 5:1-10

Hello @Davy,

The Scripture referenced above is the context in which the reference you quote (2 Corinthians 5:8) is given, and should be read in order to fully understand what Paul is saying:-

'For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.'
(2 Cor 5:1-4)

Paul desires to be 'clothed upon' when the much anticipated return of his Lord takes place: so that he will not be found 'naked' in the grave, but be alive and remaining when He comes. So that his 'earthly house' will be replaced by the 'building of God' now awaiting him in the heavens, and he will not have to experience death, or the naked state, but be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye into that spiritual body, like that of His Lord. (1 Corinthians 15:52)

That required the Lord's return, and necessitated Israel's repentance, but Israel did not repent, and so the Lord's return awaits a future day. So Paul and those to whom he wrote are all now in that 'naked' state, in the grave (the place of the dead), awaiting resurrection, as though sleeping, unaware of the passage of time (for there is no consciousness in death).

Their 'life' is now 'hid with Christ in God', and they await his 'appearing', when they will be raised to appear with Him in glory. For in God's eyes, they are merely 'asleep in Christ'.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Davy said:-
The Christian Resurrection vs. the Jew's Resurrection

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Hello @Davy,

Seeing your subject heading re. this thread: my thoughts went to Paul's defence before Felix, in which he said,

'But this I confess unto thee,
that after the way which they call heresy,
so worship I the God of my fathers,
believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
And have hope toward God,
which they themselves also allow,
that there shall be a resurrection of the dead,
both of the just and unjust.'
(Act 24:14-15)

'Touching the resurrection of the dead
I am called in question by you this day.'
(Act 24:21b)

* And also before the Jerusalem council:-

'But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees,
he cried out in the council, Men and brethren,
I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee:
of the hope and resurrection of the dead '
I am called in question.'
(Act 23:6)

* Paul appears to make no difference between the resurrection that his brethren in the flesh looked for, and that which he himself preached.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

'And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now this I say, brethren,
that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(1Co 15:49-50)

Hello @Davy,

This was the other reference you referred to I believe.

Yes, a change will take place in the believer, at the resurrection, the earthy will be replaced by the heavenly, corruption will put on incorruption, and what is mortal will put on immortality: flesh and blood will become flesh and bones, like that of our Lord.

Praise God!
In Christ Jesus
Chris

The Christian Resurrection vs. the Jew's Resurrection Part 2 (Official Version)

(the gospel's law is doubled, and that eliminates controversy............)
(the gospel's law is doubled, and that eliminates controversy............)

(Legal Answer)
(Legal Answer)

Jewish Resurrection::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Numbers 33
NUMBERS 33:4 For the Egyptians buried all [their] firstborn, which the LORD had smitten among them: upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments.
NUMBERS 33:5 And the children of Israel removed from Rameses, and pitched in Succoth.
NUMBERS 33:38 And Aaron the priest went up into mount Hor at the commandment of the LORD, and died there, in the fortieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the first [day] of the fifth month.
(The Hebrews could not worship the MALE GOD "Rameses".............the could only worship the FEMALE GOD "Aaron" (Aaron adorned herself with ear-rings, a pretty dress, fine garments, and ceremonies for the pleasure moses, as the gospel records) (the pyramid builder and soulmate covenant, was acted out by moses in that generation, as a picture of the lord jesus, this is not something new)

Christian Resurrection:::::::::::::::::::::::::: (Reply)
(what does a Christian Resurrection versus a Jewish Resurrection Mean?)
(Christian Resurrection is to meet the Lord and have communion, or to meet the lord, faithfully in harmony with the gospel's tables)
(a jewish resurrection, means a women specifically not the lord jesus is referenced, and the gospel's tables are not referenced)

(Reply) (Numbers 10 and 2Samuel5, gospel is doubled)
(they meet the lord in communion with the gospel's tables, not a women)

II SAMUEL 5:10 And David went on, and grew great, and the LORD God of hosts [was] with him.
II SAMUEL 5:11 And Hiram king of Tyre sent messengers to David, and cedar trees, and carpenters, and masons: and they built David an house.
II SAMUEL 5:12 And David perceived that the LORD had established him king over Israel, and that he had exalted his kingdom for his people Israel's sake.
II SAMUEL 5:16 And Elishama, and Eliada, and Eliphalet.
II SAMUEL 5:20 And David came to Baalperazim, and David smote them there, and said, The LORD hath broken forth upon mine enemies before me, as the breach of waters. Therefore he called the name of that place Baalperazim.

NUMBERS 10:29 And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of Raguel the Midianite, Moses' father in law, We are journeying unto the place of which the LORD said, I will give it you: come thou with us, and we will do thee good: for the LORD hath spoken good concerning Israel.
NUMBERS 10:22 And the standard of the camp of the children of Ephraim set forward according to their armies: and over his host [was] Elishama the son of Ammihud.
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(a jewish person or the jewish people, ephraim, is listed when they "met the lord in communion"................what that means is, the jewish people could be or is considered an enemy against the lord and that explains diaspora of the jews, when they are in sin, the people or christianity can't "met the lord in communion" to complete their version of resurrection) (this is a general legal argument) (EDIT) (the book of ezra or esther, the point is, a women was placed into authority instead of the lord, of that day, and the jews acted out their resurrection, this is not something new, this is what took place in the exodus)

charity said:

That required the Lord's return, and necessitated Israel's repentance, but Israel did not repent, and so the Lord's return awaits a future day. So Paul and those to whom he wrote are all now in that 'naked' state, in the grave (the place of the dead), awaiting resurrection, as though sleeping, unaware of the passage of time (for there is no consciousness in death).

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This is not Scripture. Paul is not waiting at all. Paul already entered Paradise physically, along with all the OT redeemed.

You accept there is a permanent incorruptible physical body. But then you add human interpretation and claim they have to wait, like the OT did. No, they are not waiting in the grave like Abraham had to. The Cross opened Paradise. God told the thief on the Cross, "Today, you will be with Me in Paradise". Not 2000 years, you will be in Paradise.

All those promises in Christ were for all the redeemed, not just some of the redeemed.

Timtofly said:

This is not Scripture. Paul is not waiting at all. Paul already entered Paradise physically, along with all the OT redeemed.

You accept there is a permanent incorruptible physical body. But then you add human interpretation and claim they have to wait, like the OT did. No, they are not waiting in the grave like Abraham had to. The Cross opened Paradise. God told the thief on the Cross, "Today, you will be with Me in Paradise". Not 2000 years, you will be in Paradise.

All those promises in Christ were for all the redeemed, not just some of the redeemed.

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Jesus is also recorded as saying,

"...there are some standing here, which shall not taste death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Jesus told His Disciples He would return BEFORE they would die... but that never happened either

Mike Tang 1991 said:

Jesus is also recorded as saying,

"...there are some standing here, which shall not taste death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Jesus told His Disciples He would return BEFORE they would die... but that never happened either

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No one alive in Christ will face death, period. Paul claims it would be better if he physically died. Should they have put him on a suicide watch? Physical death is not death at all. Dying without accepting the Atonement of the Cross is death. A soul in sheol, is a dead soul. So, Jesus kept His Word as the Resurrection and the Life. When this body stops working there is a permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. That is the Resurrection and the Life.

Davy said:

Let's try that again, just so you know you've been shown... what Paul was talking about there.

2 Cor 5:1-9
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

No one can just skip the start of this above verse and bypass it like you did, and believe that person is being honest. One must first understand this verse to know just what Paul desired to be clothed upon.

The subject begins with the idea that if our flesh is suddenly dissolved (Greek kataluo which means 'disintegrate, demolish' - from NT:2536 and NT:3089).

If that happens, then Paul says we 'have', and that is in the present tense, right now, a building of God, a house not made with hands, which means not flesh and blood. Paul didn't say we have the promise of this other body, he showed we have it now.

So right off the bat, Paul is actually showing what Lord Jesus revealed in John 3 about that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit. That's TWO separate operations to two separate parts of our being. Our flesh body is not what is 'born again' by The Spirit that Jesus was pointing to. It's our spirit inside... our flesh body that is 'born again' by The Spirit.

That is the basis one must start this chapter on.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

In this flesh what is it that groans? Is it our flesh that groans inside us? NO! It is our 'spirit' that is inside our flesh body that groans, because it wants to be clothed with our house from heaven, the "spiritual body" Apostle Paul had taught in the previous 1 Corinthians 15 chapter! (Yeah, you were supposed to have read and studied 1 Corinthians 15 first, before getting to this 2 Corinthians 5 chapter.)

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Paul continues that idea of our 'spirit' inside our flesh body groans being burdened by our flesh. And we (our spirit) do not want to be unclothed, by that meaning our 'spirit' has to have a body type of its own in the heavenly, again what Paul called the "spiritual body", the "image of the heavenly" in 1 Corinthians 15. That is also where Paul taught about the idea of death being swallowed up in victory, which he points to here.

5 Now He That hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Paul is pointing to God having given those in Christ The Holy Spirit, which is to our 'spirit' inside our flesh, not to our flesh.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight )

By all this then, Paul says those in Christ are confident because we know while our spirit is in this flesh that we are absent from The Lord in Heaven.

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him.
KJV

Paul then reveals that our spirit being absent from our flesh body means being present with The Lord in the heavenly. There's simply no away around what Paul clearly said there.

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Hello @Davy,

Thank you for your further response, but I stand by what I have said in replies #40, #41, #42 and #43.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour
Chris

Davy said in the OP:-
Did you know there is a difference between Christian Doctrine per The New Testament about the resurrection when Jesus returns, and the orthodox Jew's idea of the resurrection per The Old Testament?

Some Christian Churches wrongly preach the orthodox Jew's idea of resurrection, which is belief on the old dead flesh body being raised from the ground, and made anew. Just where would the orthodox Jews get such an idea?

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'And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them,
and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded
for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again
until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:
on such the second death hath no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,
and shall reign with Him a thousand years.'
(Rev 20:4-6)

Hello Davy,

The, 'first resurrection,' of (Revelation 20:4-6) is the first of two resurrections referred to in these verses: this 'first' resurrection will take place prior to the 1,000 years reign, with Christ, of the Overcomers of faith throughout the Old Testament; and those who Overcome during the great tribulation. This is the resurrection which 'was' and 'is,' 'the hope of Israel'.

The Holy Spirit spoke, by the Psalmist, of the righteous dead who should, 'have dominion,' over the rest of the dead, 'in the morning,' of this resurrection (Psalm 49:14). The Lord Jesus spoke of it when He called it, 'the resurrection of the just' (Luke 14:14), 'the resurrection from (among) the dead' (Luke 20:34-36); 'the resurrection of life' (John 5:29). Paul spoke of it as, 'the resurrection of the just.' (Acts 24:15), for which the twelve tribes hoped, according to, 'the promise made of God unto the fathers' (Acts 26:6-8). In Daniel 12:2 it is spoken of as a resurrection, 'to everlasting life', in which 'many' (not all) have part, and 'awake.'

Martha expressed her belief in, 'the resurrection at the last day' (John 11:24); ie., the last day, at the end of the present age, and immediately before the introduction of the new age of the thousand years. 'Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection and the life.' By this figure of speech called Hendiadys the Lord distinguishes the resurrection for which Martha hoped, as the resurrection, 'to everlasting life' (Daniel 12:2). He refers not to two things, but to one. It is as though He had said, 'I am the resurrection - yea, the one that is to eternal life; he that believeth on me, though he die, he shall live again; and everyone who thus liveth again in resurrection and believeth (again Hendiadys, every believer who lives again in resurrection), shall in no wise die again for ever' (John 11:25-26). No! he shall rise again in the first resurrection, and shall by no means die, 'the second death.' That shall have no power over such.

It was for this, 'first,' (or former resurrection) that the Old Testament Saints looked. It was the, 'better resurrection,' of Hebrews 11:35. It was God's revealed promise to them. It was no secret. Its revelation was given quite irrespective of the Church of God; and it will take place as though the Church had never existed at all.

This is the hope of Israel, for which Paul found himself accused, even, 'the resurrection of the dead' (Acts 24:15 & Acts 24:21).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Davy said:

Each one of those phrase in Revelation 20:4 points to different times, and different groups of believers, with that I agree:

1. "souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus" = saints killed for witnessing Jesus from the time of the cross all the way down to His future 2nd coming.
2. "and for the Word of God" = OT saints, and NT saints killed for keeping God's Word.
3. "and which had not worshiped the beast ... neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands" = specific to the Church persecuted at the end during the coming great tribulation"

By that as a whole, it is pointing to ALL the saints that stood for The Gospel, from both OT and NT, all the way down to Christ's future 2nd coming. Can't just limit that to Jews. At John 5:28-29 Jesus showed the "resurrection of life" happens on the day of His future return. That means ALL... His faithful Church that remained faithful to Him and The Father.

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Hello @Davy,

My purpose in referring to Revelation 20, was in relation to the hope of Israel, which was, I believe the former of the two resurrections mentioned there. I also showed that the Lord Jesus Christ, and Paul referred to that resurrection, as did Martha, for it was the subject of the Old Testament Scriptures.

I do not see that the nature of resurrection differs between the old and new testaments as you suggest, Dave. Except for that of 1 Thessalonians 4: 2 Thessalonians 2, and 1 Corinthians 15, revealed by Paul, and that of the out-resurrection (exanistasis) of Philippians 3:11.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour
Chris

There is an incident in Acts that thoroughly debunks this narrative:

"But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, 'Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!'

And when he had said this, a dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees; and the assembly was divided.

For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection—and no angel or spirit; but the Pharisees confess both.

Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees’ party arose and protested, saying, 'We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God.'" - Acts 23:6-8

The relevant facts in this incident are as follows:

1. Paul taught the same resurrection doctrine the other Pharisees and scribes believed.

2. Paul had the presence of mind to remember the Pharisees also believed in a physical resurrection and taught this doctrine, which is why he took the opportunity to announce to everyone present that the high priest was persecuting him for teaching it.

3. A debate erupted between the other Pharisees and scribes because the Sadducees didn't believe in that doctrine.

4. The Pharisees and scribes that heard Paul's speech defended him against the Sadducees because they taught the same resurrection doctrine Paul did.

The conclusion, simply put, is that there is no "Jewish resurrection doctrine" and "Christian resurrection doctrine". The same resurrection doctrine is taught throughout both Testaments. Read Martha's statement to Christ in Jhn 11:24 where she said she knew Lazarus would be physically resurrected to life one day. If there was ever a time for Christ to correct everyone around Him and say "you have it all wrong", that would've been the time. And yet, He never did. Why? Because the doctrine of a physical resurrection is entirely supported and reinforced by the NT!