When did Daniel 7:13-14 happen?

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Timtofly

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1 Tim 6:14 I charge you to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ;
1 Tim 6:15 and this will be made manifest at the proper time by the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1 Tim 6:16 who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

I believe this cannot be ignored, and it presents a key clue to understanding several things. Jesus alone has immortality.

First I'll just state what my meditations and studies have led me to:

The believers who are truly in Christ come into eternal life and have immortality due to Jesus giving it to them. Humans do not have immortality apart from Christ.

So the lost do not have immortality, while the saved do.
That verse does not point out immortality as you see it. Because you are not even defining immortality the way Paul did. The clue is right there in the verse: "dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see."

Who do you know accepts immortality as unapproachable light?

What about this event? Exodus 34:30-35

"And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him. And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them. And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the Lord had spoken with him in mount Sinai. And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face. But when Moses went in before the Lord to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded. And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him."

Seems like Moses approached that light, and was changed. Moses was not on earth in the NT, so Jesus was the only one then who had. But more than that, Jesus was God, that unapproachable light. That was witnessed on the Mount of Transfiguration. BTW, guess who else appeared with Jesus when He demonstrated that light?

When people point out these "only God can do that" points, it does not rule out exceptions. It is to point out the normal ability of humanity.

Many keep wanting to say immortality is just about a body that never dies, when there are verses that show immortality is not about a body at all. It is about a light that is separate from a physical body. God is spirit and light. That is how Scripture defines the one sitting on the throne. It is possible no physical body at all, as Jesus Christ was God made flesh. Yet there will come a point when we put on immortality as a spirit of light over the physical body. Right now that spirit is in the presence of God, as Adam's disobedience removed the spirit from the physical body, and it did not die, but waits in the presence of God, or becomes a demon, when a soul becomes reprobate, beyond redemption.

Immortality is the final process at the Second Coming, the whole body of the church, both currently in Paradise and on earth wait for. But those in Paradise already have an incorruptible permanent physical body. That happened at the Cross. Up until the Cross those since Abel have just been souls waiting in the place Jesus defined using the term Abraham's bosom. It is immaterial how ancient Jews viewed the terminology. It is not relevant, because souls have bodily entered Paradise at the Cross. Another term God used on the Cross, that is unrelated to human culture on what they thought Paradise was or is.

Many claim that "in Christ we are like that". In Christ we are still individuals. Individuals still walk around in Paradise this very moment. The metaphor of being in Christ, points to the fact only Christ made that possible. It does not mean reality is stuck in a metaphor. A metaphor is not reality, it is only a way to relate to an idea.
 

Earburner

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Great question!
ok



Not sure what translation you are using there but it is not an accurate one. In all the translations I looked up, the word "worship" is not used, but "to serve" was used instead.....these are very different concepts IMO. One can serve the interests of another person without worshipping them.
So IMV, this is a vision of Jesus' coronation...the crowing of him as King, which, when this vision was given, was thousands of years into the future. It was after Jesus had completed his assignment on earth and returned to heaven....but did he have to wait for this to happen?


In accord with David's prophesy in Psalm 110:1,2...which says....
"A declaration of Yahweh to my lord,
Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies your footstool.
2 Yahweh will send out your mighty scepter from Zion;
rule in the midst of your enemies."
(Lexham)

It is important to understand who David is talking about.....translations that take the divine name out, leave many people confused.
But this is Yahweh's declaration to David's "Lord"...the coming Messiah. He was told to "sit at God's right hand UNTIL God made his enemies his footstool". That is, until all the enemies of God and his people had been subjected to the new King. But then God said that he was to "rule in the midst of his enemies"......so rather than destroying those enemies, Jesus was to take up his Kingship whilst they were still in existence....still 'doing the will of their father the devil'.


Actually one was a prophesy about the other.


Daniel and Revelation are separated by over 600 years. And Daniel's prophesies were used to calculate when Messiah was due to make his appearance.....the Jews were expecting him in 29CE. And he was to be "cut off" after three and a half weeks" or three and a half years, which is exactly what happened. He presented himself for baptism at the age of 30 and was put to death three and a half years later. So can we calculate from Daniel's prophesies the time of Messiah's return? I believe we can. But the time of his return does not tell us when the "end" will come. When Jesus returned, he said would be identified by a series of world events, (Matthew 24:3-14) not something like a visible manifestation....yet.

If you are familiar with the prophesies in Daniel ch 4, you will see that beast like governments were going to rule the world....In modern times, the bear is commonly used to represent Russia; the eagle, the United States; the lion, Britain; the dragon, China. The Bible also uses wild beasts as symbols of world governments and of the entire global system of human rulership under the influence of Satan (1 John 5:19).....and that they would continue to rule until the Messiah was to become King. When did that happen?

I believe that another prophesy gives us the answer....This is in Daniel ch 2 where Nebuchadnezzar was given another dream, this time it was of a huge image made of metals in descending order....it represented a series of consecutive world powers down through time.....the head of gold was Babylon, then the arms and breast were of silver representing Medo-Persia, then the copper represented Greece, the iron was Rome and the feet of the image was Britain, which in "the time of the end", became the dual world power of Anglo-America. The image was struck on its feet, indicating that the time for God to judge the nations is during the rulership of these last kings.....the time we are living in now.

Daniel 2:44 says...
"And in the day of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, and the kingdom will not be left for another nation, and it will bring an end to all these kingdoms, but it will stand forever."

This is the time for God to introduce the rulership of his Kingdom, by bringing an end to all failed human governments under influence from satan and his demons, but not before Messiah was to "rule in the midst of his enemies". This is the time for 'separating the sheep from the goats'.

And as you can see in Revelation 12:7-12, Jesus assumes power and begins ruling by evicting satan from heaven down to the earth where he is now wreaking havoc, knowing that his time is running out.....But before Jesus brings this world system to an end, he seizes the dragon and casts him and his demons into a prison for 1000 years. (Revelation 20:1-3)
God's Kingdom in the hands of his appointed Son and King will then begin to re-establish God's rulership over this earth, as he intended from the beginning. The dead will be brought back to life and paradise conditions will be restored for human kind to enjoy. (Revelation 21:2-4)


After his death and resurrection, yes....but not before God had fulfilled his promise to make all of his enemies a stool for his feet.

I believe all the features of the "sign" that Jesus gave to indicate his "presence" (parousia) have seen fulfillment from the outbreak of the "First World War"....an event unprecedented in the history of mankind and fitting the description Jesus gave in Matthew 24:3-14.

Because I believe that Jesus' "presence" and his "coming on the clouds" are two separate events, it gives enough time for all the features of the sign to be fulfilled as well as the global preaching work that he foretold in Matthew 24:14. Since the whole world has now been given a witness, they have no excuse, just like the people of Noah's day. (Matthew 24:37-39) History is repeating, but so many do not seem to notice....
YES! "Marty Fox" has presented a great question, but in the simplicity of it's only answer, which he provided**, your explanation has obscurred the simple answer with the confounded understandings of denominational "church-ianity".

**Note: Marty Fox said: "Some Christians think that this is in our future but I believe that the bible shows us that it happened on the day of Jesus accention and it was the same time as Revelation 12:5-10".

> Basically, that is how "Amillennialists" view Daniel 7:13-14.
To further illustrate, see Jesus' parables about "the strong man" in Matthew 12:28-29 and Mark 3:26-27
 

Aunty Jane

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So you deny God was the Atonement?

Was Jesus just a man?
The problem appears to be with people assuming I said something I did not.
Where did I deny the atonement? I denied that God was the atonement but that God sent Jesus to fulfill that role, as the scriptures clearly state. (John 17:3; John 3:16)

Where did I say that Jesus was “just a man”? I said he had to be 100% mortal human to die and pay the redemption price that would free Adam’s children from the debt that they inherited from him. He was anything but “just a man”.

The thief was in Paradise that day, because it was God that told him that on the Cross.
Again you are arguing with scripture. Jesus was in his tomb for three days as he stated. Did he lie? He was not resurrected on “that day” but was laid in a tomb, confined there like Jonah was confined in the belly of the fish. Jesus could not have been with the thief “that day” in heaven, because he did not return to heaven for 40 days after his resurrection. The thief was dead and buried, like everyone else who has died, but promised a resurrection along with all the dead when Jesus rules the world as King of God’s Kingdom. (John 5:28-29) He calls them all from the same place, whether good or bad. (Acts 24:15)

Here is your Scripture Genesis 22:8

"And Abraham said, My son, God will provide Himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together."

God Himself paid the sacrifice of the Cross. Abraham prophecied about that very moment when God told the thief he would be able to enter forbidden Paradise that Adam was banned from. You just showed the "surface of the Cross", the body of Jesus, that you claimed went "no where". You claim to dig deep, no?
Now you are drawing on your own interpretation of the events....
When Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son, why would God even ask him to do that? Was there intent there to kill Isaac for some reason? Abraham did not know why God had asked him to do such a thing, but his faith was so strong that, whatever the reason, God knew what he was doing. All the promises in connection with the coming messiah rested with Isaac, without whom God’s promises would not be fulfilled. Hebrews 11:17-19 answers that question. God was illustrating through Abraham what it meant to be asked to sacrifice your precious son for reasons that were not to be apparent until after the deed was done. He was showing us what faith looks like in Abraham’s obedience despite the gravity of what he had been asked to do and the outcome when God provided the sacrifice....but not until the blade of the knife touched his son’s throat.

Only at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the disciples there did the whole picture come into focus. These then understood what Jesus had been trying to tell them, but that they just couldn’t grasp. Jews had no notion of going to heaven, so it was against all their beliefs to even entertain shedding their human bodies and being resurrected as spirit beings. But now it all made sense because the spirit had revealed it all.

Do you even know what makes a fallen human that you describe, "ceases to exist"? The soul is not our human part. The soul is who we are. The soul that dies is the state of being in the Lake of Fire, the second death. Our humanity is the dead corruptible body we use to experience life with. It is dead in sin. This body and nature has been dead since Adam took a bite and physically died. That physical death gave him a corruptible body that would decay and demand we sin against God on a continuous basis. That is our humanity.
The sin of Adam created a debt that none of his offspring could pay. Sin was an inheritance and there was no way to cancel the debt because it required something that Adam had lost. This is why Jesus had to come from outside the human race as another perfect, sinless human specimen, to offer a “life for a life” according to God’s law. (Deuteronomy 19:21 where the word “soul” is used for “life”) Souls have blood in their veins and air in their lungs.

The “soul” is not a separate part of man. It is the whole person, with everything that makes that person unique. Nowhere is it stated that “souls” go to heaven. Nowhere is it stated that souls are immortal because the meaning of the word “soul” is “a breather”....a living, breathing creature, both man and animal. We all breathe the same air and die the same death and end up in the same place. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20) Where did God tell Adam that he would go when he died? (Genesis 3:17-19) There is no immortal soul anywhere in the Bible.

In Genesis Ch 1 the animals are called “souls” but this word is more often translated “creatures” because that is what it means. Animals are “souls” but they are not promised everlasting life. “Sleeping in death” is a metaphor, meant to convey something temporary and not unpleasant. Jesus can awaken the dead as easily as he raised Lazarus. Do you stress about someone who is peacefully sleeping? Yet people stress about the dead because they imagine that they must still be alive somewhere....especially if they believe in a literal “hell”.

All we like sheep have gone astray. There is none who does good. We are all sinners. Our righteousness is just filthy rags. For as by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin, so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.
Yes...Jesus paid the ransom demanded for the release of those held captive due to Adam’s sin. He had to be the exact equivalent of Adam in order to pay the debt.
He could not have been God because God is immortal and cannot die. Until the end of the 1000 year reign of the Kingdom, redeemed mankind will be undergoing to removal of sin until all are finally free from it, and can stand one final test, when the devil is released from his prison. (Revelation 20:1-3)

I don’t understand all the various scenarios I hear from the different denominations, and personal interpretations from individuals, convinced of their accuracy, but I do know what the scriptures teach as a whole about ‘the big picture’.....and not many seem to have one that starts at creation in Genesis and finishes at the end of Revelation. It’s one story....it begins with God’s creation of the material Universe, including creatures (souls) to inhabit this one carefully prepared planet, and involves a very important lesson for those creatures made in God’s image, in the use and misuse of free will. That is the crux of everything that followed one act of disobedience....an act that plunged the whole of creation into chaos. It resulted in an object lesson that would set precedents for all eternity for both the angels and humankind, because God had granted both a precious gift that carried great responsibility. Unless free will was properly exercised, great harm would be done to God’s creation. We are living the results of that harm...on the receiving end of what abuse of free will can mean.....with this lesson concluded, only those who have learned from it will continue living, fully aware of what it means to obey their God in all things, and happy to serve his interests here on his earth, whilst enjoying the assignment he first gave us....to “be fruitful, become many and fill the earth and subdue it”.....what a beautiful life it would have been....and still will be when paradise is restored. (Revelation 21:2-4)

What do you think the scope of that assignment would have included if Adam had remained faithful?
 

Earburner

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Again you are arguing with scripture. Jesus was in his tomb for three days as he stated. Did he lie? He was not resurrected on “that day” but was laid in a tomb, confined there like Jonah was confined in the belly of the fish. Jesus could not have been with the thief “that day” in heaven, because he did not return to heaven for 40 days after his resurrection. The thief was dead and buried, like everyone else who has died, but promised a resurrection along with all the dead when Jesus rules the world as King of God’s Kingdom. (John 5:28-29) He calls them all from the same place, whether good or bad. (Acts 24:15)
But, for all the time of Jonah being in the belly of the fish, Jonah was alive.

Since Jesus did die physically of his body, was He not still alive by His eternal Spirit?

Agreeing that Jesus was alive in His Spirit after death, "born again Christians" should conclude that paradise is not the Heaven of God, but rather the place of our waiting within Jesus, in whom we sleep after we too have physically died, waiting to be awoken upon the day of Christ's visible return from Heaven. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15.
If not, then you also are arguing against scripture
John 11[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
 

Earburner

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Immortality is the final process at the Second Coming, the whole body of the church, both currently in Paradise and on earth wait for. But those in Paradise already have an incorruptible permanent physical body. That happened at the Cross. Up until the Cross those since Abel have just been souls waiting in the place Jesus defined using the term Abraham's bosom. It is immaterial how ancient Jews viewed the terminology. It is not relevant, because souls have bodily entered Paradise at the Cross
Hi Timto Fly, I have a few scriptures to add to your understanding.
It appears that you are understanding the analogy of Abraham's Bosom as paradise, and you have associated it well, as being populated with those who were of faith during OC Israel. However, I think you have made a jump to an assumption about them as already been given an incorruptible permanent physical body.

Though most of Church-ianity believes that the OC patriachs and the prophets had the Holy Spirit permanently within them, they are in complete error. That event of "The Promise", is what they were looking forward to in faith believing, but never recieved that " Promise". Only until after the shed Blood of Christ the Messiah can the Holy Spirit of God permanently DWELL within people, of which began on the Day of Pentecost.

Prior to Christ's first appearance, all that the Spirit of God could do then, was to temporarily come upon them, but then leave. A Holy God cannot make His permanent "abode" within UN-holy beings. Hence the need of Christ's Blood for our Atonement, that we may be made to be holy and acceptable, through faith in Jesus. That is why Jesus is called "the lamb OF God". God the Father needed Jesus' sacrifice for Himself as much as we do, but for different reasons.

There are few scriptures that come to mind that agree with what you are showing overall, but a few others that reveal that those who are in paradise, were only given the Holy Spirit, and are STILL waiting for physical immortality, which shall only take place uopn His Glorious Return in flaming fire from Heaven.

"A book of remembrance" for the OC saints- Malachi 3:16
The OC saints, who are seen "under the altar", had long been dead, but recieved the Holy Spirit after their death, but only after Jesus' resurrection/Pentecost- Revelation 6:9-11. They NOW are also the "dead in Christ", who shall be with Christ in the day of His return. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

These OC saints under the altar are still asleep, but NOW they are asleep in Jesus, with the Gift of the Holy Spirit, the Seal of God, which is paradise, but are still waiting for their bodies of immortality.

They are they of which Paul calls "just men MADE perfect". Hebrews 12:23-24
When were they made perfect?
Ans. In the day of the shedding of the Blood of Jesus Christ. Though long time dead in faith, there sins were REMOVED then, and then after that they were each given "white robes" , aka the Holy Spirit, the vehicle of the Gift of eternal life, but not yet immortality.
We ALL are still waiting!
 

Aunty Jane

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But, for all the time of Jonah being in the belly of the fish, Jonah was alive.
That was not the point of Jesus statement to the Pharisees. He was alluding to Jonah being confined in the belly of the fish, like he would be confined in the tomb for three days. He was not resurrected for three days, meaning that Jesus was confined in death for that entire period.

Since Jesus did die physically of his body, was He not still alive by His eternal Spirit?
This assumes a great deal. As Jesus was Jewish, it was not in Jewish belief or scripture that humans had a spiritual part of them that was released at death to go somewhere else. That was a pagan idea that crept in later, corrupting both Judaism and Christianity.
The Jews believed in resurrection, (not a continuation of life, but a restoration of it) therefore Jesus believed this too, and he not only taught it, he demonstrated it three times when he raised the dead back to life. There was no mention of them being brought back from somewhere else.

Agreeing that Jesus was alive in His Spirit after death, "born again Christians" should conclude that paradise is not the Heaven of God, but rather the place of our waiting within Jesus, in whom we sleep after we too have physically died, waiting to be awoken upon the day of Christ's visible return from Heaven. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15.
I have to smile when I hear people misunderstanding the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. From this many assume that “Paradise” must be somewhere between heaven and hell, because it is taught that the spirit of man must live on somewhere.....but this parable does not promote this idea at all...it is a twisted interpretation of it.

Jesus had no belief in an immortal soul that departs from the body at death....only the pagans believed such things. Why was it promoted in paganism? Because the idea that you don’t really die is as appealing today as it was to Eve in the garden of Eden.....it’s the same lie, fed to people to deceive them. When we die, we return to the dust....we return to the place we were before our parents conceived us. What God does is re-create the whole “person” (soul) which means bringing them back to life, not transferring them from one place to another. Jesus calls all the dead from their graves......because they are all still in them. (John 5:28-29)

If not, then you also are arguing against scripture
John 11[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
This too I believe, is misinterpreted.....
Taken in context that scripture says...
John 11:21-27....
“Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.” 23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; 26 and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?” 27 She said to him: “Yes, Lord, I have believed that you are the Christ, the Son of God, the one coming into the world.”

What is the setting and what is the subject? Who is Jesus addressing and what are her beliefs?

Jesus is speaking to Martha, Lazarus’s sister. He spoke to her about her brother’s “resurrection” which Martha acknowledged as taking place “on the last day”.....the day when Messiah rules the earth and brings all the dead back to life. (John 5:28-29)

What did Jesus tell her? He said that he was “the resurrection and the life” (the one authorised by God to bring the dead back to life) and that the one who exercised faith him, even though he died, would “come to life” in that future resurrection....but he also said, that “everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all“.....meaning that those who are alive at his return will never have to experience death at all....they will survive the end of this current word system and live on into the new world that God will create for those who remain faithful to him. (2 Peter 3:13)

There is so much confusion over these verses plucked out of context, so that they are assumed to mean the exact opposite of what is written. Context is everything....a sound knowledge of what the entirety of scripture teaches is vital.....people assume that Christ taught what Christendom does....but nothing could be further from the truth....we were actually warned that this would happen. People are condemned to repeat the mistakes of the past by ignoring them....there is a lesson there if we bother to do our homework.
 

Earburner

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That was not the point of Jesus statement to the Pharisees. He was alluding to Jonah being confined in the belly of the fish, like he would be confined in the tomb for three days. He was not resurrected for three days, meaning that Jesus was confined in death for that entire period.
So, you are saying that He who is the resurrection and the life, the eternal Spirit of God
 

Earburner

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have to smile when I hear people misunderstanding the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. From this many assume that “Paradise” must be somewhere between heaven and hell, because it is taught that the spirit of man must live on somewhere.....but this parable does not promote this idea at all...it is a twisted interpretation of it.
I have no misunderstanding about it!
Paradise is NOT the Heaven of God, nor is it any place, except in Jesus Himself.
To have physically died in faith of Jesus, is to be asleep in Jesus. Born again Christians never die, but all else do die, and therefore all of such are "condemned already", never able to participate in any kind of a resurrection ever.
The story of the Rich man and Lazaruth is a parable, which delivers only one truth, and that truth is about Jesus Himself.
 

Timtofly

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Hi Timto Fly, I have a few scriptures to add to your understanding.
It appears that you are understanding the analogy of Abraham's Bosom as paradise, and you have associated it well, as being populated with those who were of faith during OC Israel. However, I think you have made a jump to an assumption about them as already been given an incorruptible permanent physical body.

Nope! Abraham's bosom is not Paradise.

The Cross was the act that opened Paradise to Adam's offspring. Those who by faith accepted the Atonement.

Abraham's bosom was not the city in Hebrews 11. Paradise was.

Though most of Church-ianity believes that the OC patriachs and the prophets had the Holy Spirit permanently within them, they are in complete error. That event of "The Promise", is what they were looking forward to in faith believing, but never recieved that " Promise". Only until after the shed Blood of Christ the Messiah can the Holy Spirit of God permanently DWELL within people, of which began on the Day of Pentecost.

Prior to Christ's first appearance, all that the Spirit of God could do then, was to temporarily come upon them, but then leave. A Holy God cannot make His permanent "abode" within UN-holy beings. Hence the need of Christ's Blood for our Atonement, that we may be made to be holy and acceptable, through faith in Jesus. That is why Jesus is called "the lamb OF God". God the Father needed Jesus' sacrifice for Himself as much as we do, but for different reasons.

That the Holy Spirit works is only by faith and obedience. But all of Adam's offspring have the work of the Holy Spirit in them. That is the only seal keeping us from the LoF.


There are few scriptures that come to mind that agree with what you are showing overall, but a few others that reveal that those who are in paradise, were only given the Holy Spirit, and are STILL waiting for physical immortality, which shall only take place uopn His Glorious Return in flaming fire from Heaven.

"A book of remembrance" for the OC saints- Malachi 3:16
The OC saints, who are seen "under the altar", had long been dead, but recieved the Holy Spirit after their death, but only after Jesus' resurrection/Pentecost- Revelation 6:9-11. They NOW are also the "dead in Christ", who shall be with Christ in the day of His return. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

These OC saints under the altar are still asleep, but NOW they are asleep in Jesus, with the Gift of the Holy Spirit, the Seal of God, which is paradise, but are still waiting for their bodies of immortality.

They are they of which Paul calls "just men MADE perfect". Hebrews 12:23-24
When were they made perfect?
Ans. In the day of the shedding of the Blood of Jesus Christ. Though long time dead in faith, there sins were REMOVED then, and then after that they were each given "white robes" , aka the Holy Spirit, the vehicle of the Gift of eternal life, but not yet immortality.
We ALL are still waiting!

The problem is that one's physical aspect always happen first, even the first resurrection is physical. There is not this great divide that people make out between spiritual and physical. It is all one single creation. Heaven is just as physical as it is spiritual. Earth is just as spiritual as it is physical. Not two separate dimensions. The problem is we are spiritually blind, and any attempt to participate in the spiritual via demons is prohibited.

So all first resurrections are physical. The soul of the redeemed passes out of death and into eternal life in a permanent incorruptible physical body. First birth, first death, and first resurrection deal only with the physical body.

The second birth pertains to the spiritual aspect of life.
 

Earburner

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Nope! Abraham's bosom is not Paradise.

The Cross was the act that opened Paradise to Adam's offspring. Those who by faith accepted the Atonement.

Abraham's bosom was not the city in Hebrews 11. Paradise was.
I never said paradise was Abrahams bosom. I said it was an analogy to what paradise is.
If you didn't understand that, then you probably also missed on what I said paradise is.
 

Earburner

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The problem is that one's physical aspect always happen first, even the first resurrection is physical. There is not this great divide that people make out between spiritual and physical. It is all one single creation. Heaven is just as physical as it is spiritual. Earth is just as spiritual as it is physical. Not two separate dimensions. The problem is we are spiritually blind, and any attempt to participate in the spiritual via demons is prohibited.
Jesus said that God (the Father) IS a spirit. Are you saying that God the Father is also physical?
 

Earburner

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So all first resurrections are physical. The soul of the redeemed passes out of death and into eternal life in a permanent incorruptible physical body. First birth, first death, and first resurrection deal only with the physical body.
I disagree.
So far, that I know of from NT scripture, Jesus is "the Firtstborn from the dead", being totally immortal in the New Life of His resurrection. That is HOW we are to follow Him, but in the reverse order.
1. Jesus was "from above", eternal Spirit, made (born of a woman) to be flesh, died, resurrected in Immortality, and became the firstborn from the dead.
2. We are "from beneath", being totally mortal flesh, in need of God's Spirit, in order to be Spirit eternal. Therefore, we must be born again" of God's Spirit, in order to recieve His eternal life. As Jesus said: that which is born of the flesh is flesh, "that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit".
Again:
1. Jesus was Spirit and became flesh, and resurrected into His New Life of immortality.
2. We are flesh, but through faith, we are to become Spirit, and shall be resurrected into immortality after His likeness, upon His Glorious visible return from Heaven.

We who are of faith, have recieved His "Promise" of His Holy Spirit, which is the Seal of God for His fulfillment of that "Promise" of our redemption.
Romans 8:8-9.

We ALL (the quick in Christ and the dead in Christ) are STILL in waiting for our physical redemption to be performed on the Day of Jesus' return, being "His many brethren".
 

Earburner

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That the Holy Spirit works is only by faith and obedience. But all of Adam's offspring have the work of the Holy Spirit in them. That is the only seal keeping us from the LoF.
Luke 11:13 and Romans 8:8-9 says otherwise.
 

Earburner

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^ I am meaning: no one of Adam's offspring is physically born with the Holy Spirit already.
 

Davy

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The problem is that one's physical aspect always happen first, even the first resurrection is physical. There is not this great divide that people make out between spiritual and physical. It is all one single creation. Heaven is just as physical as it is spiritual. Earth is just as spiritual as it is physical. Not two separate dimensions. The problem is we are spiritually blind, and any attempt to participate in the spiritual via demons is prohibited.

So all first resurrections are physical. The soul of the redeemed passes out of death and into eternal life in a permanent incorruptible physical body. First birth, first death, and first resurrection deal only with the physical body.

The second birth pertains to the spiritual aspect of life.

You're starting to sound like the orthodox Jew with their 'dead in the ground' theory which believes the resurrection is about a flesh physical body.

The word 'physical' doesn't really define the resurrection body. The phrase "spiritual body" that Apostle Paul taught for it does. Paul also used the idea of "the image of the heavenly" to further define the resurrection type body. He also made it even more clear when he said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption (1 Corinthians 15).

Sorry then, the word 'physical' just doesn't get er' done.

Towards the end of 1 Corinthians 15, Apostle Paul gave 4 separate Greek words about 2 separate changes required to have eternal life through Christ Jesus. You might want to look that up, because the resurrection for the wicked, called the "resurrection of damnation", is a resurrection to a "spiritual body" also with one difference, their mortal souls will still be in a liable to perish in the lake of fire kind of condition during Christ's future thousand years reign (called the "second death"). Those of the 1st resurrection will not be subject to that, but will have put on immortality through Christ Jesus.
 

Earburner

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You're starting to sound like the orthodox Jew with their 'dead in the ground' theory which believes the resurrection is about a flesh physical body.
We have to be careful here. Jesus, after His Resurrection, has the ability to be both Spirit with flesh and bone, BUT without blood.
John 20[19] Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.[
26] And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Luke 24[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
 

Timtofly

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I never said paradise was Abrahams bosom. I said it was an analogy to what paradise is.
If you didn't understand that, then you probably also missed on what I said paradise is.
If Abraham's bosom is not Paradise, then that means not even as an analogy.

You never did say what Paradise is. You claimed something about souls under the alter, which is more symbolic, and not literal, even more than the account (not a parable) that Jesus described, the now defunct place, Jesus called Abraham's bosom.

No one called Abraham's bosom that. Jesus was using a term, to spring board into a literal description of sheol. The Hebrews were well aware of sheol, but did not have that word in their vocabulary either, until the Greeks made them their subjects.

David called death, the valley of the shadow of death, and called it sleep. Sleeping is not the literal point either. David had faith in God, via the Holy Spirit, that death was not permanent, but temporary. So sleep is just calling death temporary, not permanent. Death was still associated with a place under ground, or under the earth. Under the earth is still used in the NT, and Christ never "corrected" that notion, nor has the Holy Spirit. Science changed that by claiming the earth is a planet, and space is under the earth. Or now the common place of sheol is the magma core.

So under ground was never the replacement for Paradise, which is just the word Garden. The place literally known as the Garden of Eden.

"Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden (Paradise), to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden (Paradise) Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

The tree of life is in Paradise.

Merriam Webster Dictionary:

"Paradise ultimately comes from an Iranian word that the Greeks modified into paradeisos, meaning "enclosed park." In Hellenistic Greek, "paradeisos" was also used in the Septuagint - an early Greek translation of Jewish scriptures - in reference to the Garden of Eden."

Was Jesus a liar on the Cross when He told the thief, that indeed, the thief could now enter the Garden of Eden where the tree of life was? Was the Garden of Eden in sheol? Was Paul wrong in claiming that all those redeemed in sheol, were set free to enter the Garden of Eden? Was there an alter in the Garden of Eden? Was John wrong in symbolically pointing out souls redeemed as being under or covered by that alter? Those were John's symbolically written words to convey the literal place, of the Garden of Eden.

God sacrificed an animal, on the same alter Abel used to temporarily cloth Adam and Eve with temporary garments. John's view in the 5th Seal was not about temporal garments, but the actual return of Adam's flesh and blood to the full image of God, that has been lost since before God set up the alter in the Garden of Eden (Paradise). Our spirit is a covering of bright light that goes around a permanent incorruptible physical body. That is what John is symbolically pointing out with a robe of white.

Even those in Paradise are waiting for that final step. But they are not waiting for permanent incorruptible physical bodies. That happened at the Cross, when all the redeemed in sheol were bodily resurrected from death, and allowed to enter Paradise. Not a single soul in Christ faces death any more, not even the taste of death. The soul is immediately housed in a permanent incorruptible physical body, once this dead corruptible body stops working. That body is enjoying Paradise, until the full image of God is restored.
 

Timtofly

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Jesus said that God (the Father) IS a spirit. Are you saying that God the Father is also physical?
Either it was Jesus Christ walking in the Garden with Adam, or it was a physical light, as Adam was seen as a physical light as well. Is light physical or spiritual?

In the 6th Seal spiritual blindness is gone.

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

There is no symbolism in this verse. People on earth will see God in all His glory. They will not be able to die, until God takes away their life. John shows us the literal distinction between God and Jesus Christ. The Lamb is not symbolic. That is just another name for Jesus the Prince. John is just pointing out with that title, exactly what all humanity will know. They will know the Lamb is Jesus who died on the Cross.
 

Timtofly

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I disagree.
So far, that I know of from NT scripture, Jesus is "the Firtstborn from the dead", being totally immortal in the New Life of His resurrection. That is HOW we are to follow Him, but in the reverse order.
1. Jesus was "from above", eternal Spirit, made (born of a woman) to be flesh, died, resurrected in Immortality, and became the firstborn from the dead.
2. We are "from beneath", being totally mortal flesh, in need of God's Spirit, in order to be Spirit eternal. Therefore, we must be born again" of God's Spirit, in order to recieve His eternal life. As Jesus said: that which is born of the flesh is flesh, "that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit".
Again:
1. Jesus was Spirit and became flesh, and resurrected into His New Life of immortality.
2. We are flesh, but through faith, we are to become Spirit, and shall be resurrected into immortality after His likeness, upon His Glorious visible return from Heaven.

We who are of faith, have recieved His "Promise" of His Holy Spirit, which is the Seal of God for His fulfillment of that "Promise" of our redemption.
Romans 8:8-9.

We ALL (the quick in Christ and the dead in Christ) are STILL in waiting for our physical redemption to be performed on the Day of Jesus' return, being "His many brethren".
Your symbolism is not wrong. Just not literal.

The Word became flesh, not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit "lives" in us, in lieu of our spirit, which is the glory of God around our incorruptible physical body. See the full image of God as Jesus appeared on the mount of Transfiguration. The bright light is not inside us, but outside of the body. Men see the light, not because we walk around like a star. They see the Holy Spirit in our attitudes and demeanor.

Jesus did not have to wait until death, burial, and resurrection. Jesus was the firstborn as a baby in the womb. Even before the Cross, Jesus was already the Resurrection and the Life. Some seem to rely too much on the physical acts, and not on the fact, Jesus was already God in the womb.

Jesus said one had to be physically born first. First is your key word.

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

One has to go through the water of the womb, and that comes first. The "of the Spirit", comes second.

The next verse explains that fact.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

At conception, the flesh is in the womb, our spirit is with God. The Holy Spirit is given to seal us, while the sin nature from Adam, attempts to ruin that seal. Theology has a slightly different take and sometimes opposing views on how the Holy Spirit works. Some claim only the elect are sealed, and cannot do anything to change that fact. That is not the whole truth. And the issue will never be settled by humans with their sin nature. There is no Scripture stating some are born in a reprobate state.

The point is being born the second time is allowing the Holy Spirit to be in control. It is not automatic. But we do have to make the conscious decision to submit. If the Holy Spirit is not there as a seal, how can the Holy Spirit move within us to get us to the point of a spiritual birth. That is what we are not to marvel over.