There is NO proof text in scripture.

ScottA · Dec 8, 2021

post said:
the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Christ.
the scripture is the testimony of Christ.

i would be very careful not to speak against studying it; to know Him is life - and we have a book that testifies of Him from cover to cover
what else could possibly be more worth reading?

Thank you, but let me be perfectly clear. There is no problem with studying the word of God.

The problem is placing the written word, which is subject to confusion, flesh and blood, and interpretations, above what the Spirit says.

And let's not forget that the Spirit is not limited to those testimonies that are written only, but all who know Him also have the testimony of Jesus.

post · Dec 8, 2021

ScottA said:
The problem is placing the written word, which is subject to confusion, flesh and blood, and interpretations, above what the Spirit says.

the written word is written by the inspiration of the Spirit and understood through the Spirit.
it is what the Spirit says: He does not speak of His own, but glorifies Christ, taking what is Christ's and making it known.
that's what the scripture is

#1 issue in our discussions of scripture IMO is that people fail to look for, and to find Him in it. if we were in the Spirit, we would be seeing Christ glorified on every page: that is the primary intent of scripture

Mungo · Dec 8, 2021

ScottA said:
No, see, there is a difference between "thinking" or believing, and "knowing" anything of truth. Truth belongs to God. If it comes from God, it's the truth. Period.

But I do value his word in the scriptures--He sent me directly to it to fill in all the details. But the words are spirit, and must be discerned spiritually.

Can you give me a straight answer to the question I originally asked:-
"So where do you get your doctrines from?"

Or are you going to carry on being evasive?

Taken · Dec 8, 2021

ScottA said:
God has confused all language at Babel--even all scripture...which has not been rescinded.

Most of the debates here and many of the differences of belief and division among so-called Christians, are over the various translations of original languages that have been confused by God to make it foolishness to the natural man and unbelievers. And most have fallen headlong into the trap, a trap that was never meant for you/us.

Get off the word studies, and get in the Spirit. Walk in the Spirit.

The scriptures then, are not to serve as a proof text of what you think or what was taught, but should instead be a means of confirmation. The rule is NOT to test every word, but rather to "test every spirit."

Let me say it again: Get off the word studies. They are of no value to proving doctrine.

In one respect I agree, in another respect I disagree.

Personally, I do “word studies”.

* In one respect...a “word study” can mean:
Taking A word IN ENGLISH, and researching what that word means in...
Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, etc. The premise being, (a sort of fact checking and deciding IF, the Translators, made an accurate “translation”, from language to language.)
THAT IS NOT MY INTEREST.

* Personally, I believe, men IN DEPTH belief, were selected, chosen, appointed, to Translate Scriptures into English. It is my conception, they spent much time IN PRAYER, asking for Gods intervention for accuracy.

* In another respect...a “word study” can mean:
Searching the English Bible for SAME words, and studying the TEXT of the Whole of the passages, and the relevancy of the word in CONTEXT from verse to verse.
MY PREFERENCE.

And to mention a “third” thing to consider.
English Bibles, from days of old translated by IN DEPTH believers....
AND “some MODERN” Bibles, translated by “academics”, electing to USE,
“Modern” language.
NOT MY PREFERENCE.

* These such “modern” Bibles, “pitched at easy to read”, are NOT my favorable choice.
* It is NOT NEWS, many words of old, had specific meanings, and modernly the SAME words, mean the Complete Opposite of the old.
(Modernly, Bad is Good? Title of Honor given the dishonorable? Holy Crap?
Swear to Tell the Whole Truth? (Never mind, shut up and take the hush $$).
Gay? Rainbow? Marriage? )
* We can call it slang, hip, jive, whatever...but the fact is, modernly, daily, it is turning the truth into a lie, and WIDELY accepted.
* Also disagree with “MODERN” Bibles that glaringly “OMIT” historical Scriptures.

CONSIDER:
1 Cor 1:
[21] For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
[22] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
[23] But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Jews...ALL Tribal Israelites.
Greeks...ALL Gentiles.

Jews still want a sign. (Did not recognize the SIGN when it was given them)
Gentiles, (broadly, world wide, and particularly IN US “educational” institutions, schools, colleges, universities..) ARE taught and have adopted...the Greek “method” to discover “wisdom” VIA Philosophy! <—- wisdom OF men, wisdom OF the World.
Foolishness OF men. (Billions of $$ spent by all the “students” ... required Philosophy 101).

NOT MY PREFERENCE.

Gods Wisdom comes FROM God!
Amen!

Glory to God,
Taken

Cooper · Dec 8, 2021

ScottA said:
Thank you, but let me be perfectly clear. There is no problem with studying the word of God.

The problem is placing the written word, which is subject to confusion, flesh and blood, and interpretations, above what the Spirit says.

And let's not forget that the Spirit is not limited to those testimonies that are written only, but all who know Him also have the testimony of Jesus.

Basically, people do not want to know. Their minds are firm, made up in the way they were taught as children.
.

Robert Gwin · Dec 8, 2021

ScottA said:
God has confused all language at Babel--even all scripture...which has not been rescinded.

Most of the debates here and many of the differences of belief and division among so-called Christians, are over the various translations of original languages that have been confused by God to make it foolishness to the natural man and unbelievers. And most have fallen headlong into the trap, a trap that was never meant for you/us.

Get off the word studies, and get in the Spirit. Walk in the Spirit.

The scriptures then, are not to serve as a proof text of what you think or what was taught, but should instead be a means of confirmation. The rule is NOT to test every word, but rather to "test every spirit."

Let me say it again: Get off the word studies. They are of no value to proving doctrine.

Zech 8:23; Jn 4:24; Eph 4:5; 1 Cor 1:10

keithr · Dec 8, 2021

ScottA said:
...Oh, and you also only quoted part of your attack scripture. You left out vs 14 of 2 Timothy 2:

"Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers."

Guess you needed reminding.

You missed out the previous verses, which gives "these things" that Timothy should remind the brethren of:

2 Timothy 2:2,11-14 (WEB):

(2) The things which you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit the same to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also.
(11) This saying is trustworthy: “For if we died with him, we will also live with him.
(12) If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he also will deny us.
(13) If we are faithless, he remains faithful. For he can’t deny himself.”
(14) Remind them of these things, charging them in the sight of the Lord, that they don’t argue about words, to no profit, to the subverting of those who hear.

Concerning arguing over the meaning of words, Paul also wrote:
1 Timothy 6:3-5 (WEB):

(3) If anyone teaches a different doctrine, and doesn’t consent to sound words, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness,
(4) he is conceited, knowing nothing, but obsessed with arguments, disputes, and word battles, from which come envy, strife, insulting, evil suspicions,
(5) constant friction of people of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. Withdraw yourself from such.

So Paul is advising Timothy to withdraw himself from those that argue contrary to the sound words of Jesus, and that teach a differrent doctrine to what Paul preached. Paul and Jesus both taught that Jesus was God's Son and not God, yet people still get into word battles claiming, for instance, that because Jesus occasionallly used the words "I am" that must mean that he is God! That is contrary to Jesus' sound words, and the doctrine taught by Paul.

ScottA · Dec 8, 2021

post said:
the written word is written by the inspiration of the Spirit and understood through the Spirit.
it is what the Spirit says: He does not speak of His own, but glorifies Christ, taking what is Christ's and making it known.
that's what the scripture is

#1 issue in our discussions of scripture IMO is that people fail to look for, and to find Him in it. if we were in the Spirit, we would be seeing Christ glorified on every page: that is the primary intent of scripture

Yes, it is a people problem. Like I was saying: "confusion, flesh and blood, and interpretations."

ScottA · Dec 8, 2021

Mungo said:
Can you give me a straight answer to the question I originally asked:-
"So where do you get your doctrines from?"

I did already:

ScottA said:
I know it's different for different people. But as it turned out for me, I first heard from God and then went to the scriptures. Which, in doing so the one confirmed the Other, and vice versa.

Mungo said:
Or are you going to carry on being evasive?

As for "being evasive", I spoke the truth and told you plainly.

But, since you don't seem to understand, I will clarify:

"Doctrine" is "belief." --I don't have a belief or a doctrine per say. What I know of God, I got directly from God, so I do not "believe" it, I "know" it.

ScottA · Dec 8, 2021

Taken said:
In one respect I agree, in another respect I disagree.
Personally, I do “word studies”.

* In one respect...a “word study” can mean:
Taking A word IN ENGLISH, and researching what that word means in...
Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, etc. The premise being, (a sort of fact checking and deciding IF, the Translators, made an accurate “translation”, from language to language.)
THAT IS NOT MY INTEREST.

* Personally, I believe, men IN DEPTH belief, were selected, chosen, appointed, to Translate Scriptures into English. It is my conception, they spent much time IN PRAYER, asking for Gods intervention for accuracy.

* In another respect...a “word study” can mean:
Searching the English Bible for SAME words, and studying the TEXT of the Whole of the passages, and the relevancy of the word in CONTEXT from verse to verse.
MY PREFERENCE.

And to mention a “third” thing to consider.
English Bibles, from days of old translated by IN DEPTH believers....
AND “some MODERN” Bibles, translated by “academics”, electing to USE,
“Modern” language.
NOT MY PREFERENCE.

* These such “modern” Bibles, “pitched at easy to read”, are NOT my favorable choice.
* It is NOT NEWS, many words of old, had specific meanings, and modernly the SAME words, mean the Complete Opposite of the old.
(Modernly, Bad is Good? Title of Honor given the dishonorable? Holy Crap?
Swear to Tell the Whole Truth? (Never mind, shut up and take the hush $$).
Gay? Rainbow? Marriage? )
* We can call it slang, hip, jive, whatever...but the fact is, modernly, daily, it is turning the truth into a lie, and WIDELY accepted.
* Also disagree with “MODERN” Bibles that glaringly “OMIT” historical Scriptures.

CONSIDER:
1 Cor 1:
[21] For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
[22] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
[23] But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Jews...ALL Tribal Israelites.
Greeks...ALL Gentiles.

Jews still want a sign. (Did not recognize the SIGN when it was given them)
Gentiles, (broadly, world wide, and particularly IN US “educational” institutions, schools, colleges, universities..) ARE taught and have adopted...the Greek “method” to discover “wisdom” VIA Philosophy! <—- wisdom OF men, wisdom OF the World.
Foolishness OF men. (Billions of $$ spent by all the “students” ... required Philosophy 101).
NOT MY PREFERENCE.

Gods Wisdom comes FROM God!
Amen!

Glory to God,
Taken

That is great--thank you!

I too do word studies. My advice and direction against it here, is not that it not be done--in fact, I recommend it. But rather, that word study should not be a religion, a god, and the primary basis on which one lives before God. That is a recipe for disaster: That is what the law of God became to men, which behavior (not the law) ended with Christ's crucifixion...but not until after He called them out on it for their hypocrisy. And the same error is being made again by those who make the scriptures their god.

So...I am not speaking against the scriptures any more than I would speak against the law of God--but just the opposite: I am speaking against those who's studies make them blind, as was the case with the Pharisees.

Taken · Dec 8, 2021

ScottA said:
That is great--thank you!

I too do word studies. My advice and direction against it here, is not that it not be done--in fact, I recommend it. But rather, that word study should not be a religion, a god, and the primary basis on which one lives before God. That is a recipe for disaster: That is what the law of God became to men, which behavior (not the law) ended with Christ's crucifixion...but not until after He called them out on it for their hypocrisy. And the same error is being made again by those who make the scriptures their god.

So...I am not speaking against the scriptures any more than I would speak against the law of God--but just the opposite: I am speaking against those who's studies make them blind, as was the case with the Pharisees.

I understood what you meant, but saw some guff responses. Thought I would detail clarify a bit.

God Bless,
Taken

ScottA · Dec 8, 2021

keithr said:
You missed out the previous verses, which gives "these things" that Timothy should remind the brethren of:

2 Timothy 2:2,11-14 (WEB):

(2) The things which you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit the same to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also.
(11) This saying is trustworthy: “For if we died with him, we will also live with him.
(12) If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he also will deny us.
(13) If we are faithless, he remains faithful. For he can’t deny himself.”
(14) Remind them of these things, charging them in the sight of the Lord, that they don’t argue about words, to no profit, to the subverting of those who hear.

Concerning arguing over the meaning of words, Paul also wrote:
1 Timothy 6:3-5 (WEB):

(3) If anyone teaches a different doctrine, and doesn’t consent to sound words, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness,
(4) he is conceited, knowing nothing, but obsessed with arguments, disputes, and word battles, from which come envy, strife, insulting, evil suspicions,
(5) constant friction of people of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. Withdraw yourself from such.

So Paul is advising Timothy to withdraw himself from those that argue contrary to the sound words of Jesus, and that teach a differrent doctrine to what Paul preached. Paul and Jesus both taught that Jesus was God's Son and not God, yet people still get into word battles claiming, for instance, that because Jesus occasionallly used the words "I am" that must mean that he is God! That is contrary to Jesus' sound words, and the doctrine taught by Paul.

Again...

One can certainly make a case for the Son being different than the Father, or for the Son not being God, but rather the Son of God...for He did lower Himself.

Such a case is clearly according to what is written. Absolutely.

But the Spirit does not end where the words end in mere language. Thus, I have heard and will advocate, that all who are born of the spirit of God, "hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

...Certainly Paul makes no exception that we should not include Jesus' words to the churches.

Mungo · Dec 8, 2021

ScottA said:
I did already:

As for "being evasive", I spoke the truth and told you plainly.

But, since you don't seem to understand, I will clarify:

"Doctrine" is "belief." --I don't have a belief or a doctrine per say. What I know of God, I got directly from God, so I do not "believe" it, I "know" it.

And a lot of people claim they "know" things from God but that contradict things God told you.

Helen · Dec 8, 2021

ScottA said:
God has confused all language at Babel--even all scripture...which has not been rescinded.

Most of the debates here and many of the differences of belief and division among so-called Christians, are over the various translations of original languages that have been confused by God to make it foolishness to the natural man and unbelievers. And most have fallen headlong into the trap, a trap that was never meant for you/us.

Get off the word studies, and get in the Spirit. Walk in the Spirit.

The scriptures then, are not to serve as a proof text of what you think or what was taught, but should instead be a means of confirmation. The rule is NOT to test every word, but rather to "test every spirit."

Let me say it again: Get off the word studies. They are of no value to proving doctrine.

Amen Bro!

I am SOoooo happy to see you brother , your daily presence on this site has been missed greatly , ( if only by me.

...But I am sure by others too. )

Many blessings....H

post · Dec 8, 2021

keithr said:
So Paul

Titus 2:11-13
For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men, teaching us, that denying the impiety and the worldly desires, soberly and righteously and piously we may live in the present age, waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,

ScottA · Dec 8, 2021

Mungo said:
And a lot of people claim they "know" things from God but that contradict things God told you.

So, is it your intention and advice not to believe anything that people claim they "know" from God, as if God no longer has interaction with people?

What are you trying to say here?

Mungo · Dec 8, 2021

ScottA said:
So, is it your intention and advice not to believe anything that people claim they "know" from God, as if God no longer has interaction with people?

What are you trying to say here?

That you "know" the truth from God is fantasy.

ScottA · Dec 8, 2021

Mungo said:
That you "know" the truth from God is fantasy.

That you could possibly know that...is quotable. If nothing else, it says a lot about you. Fruit. Thanks!

ScottA · Dec 8, 2021

Wow, that was QUICK!

Here again, Christians debating over the meaning of scripture.

Talk about a contradiction in terms!

Kinda proves the point.

Desire Of All Nations · Dec 8, 2021

This is just a fancy way of saying "use human reasoning to determine what you want the Bible to say and then use it as a means of confirming your beliefs". I'm here to tell you that biblical Christianity doesn't work that way, no matter how much you want it to. The inspired text tells Christians what they're supposed to believe and practice, not the other way around.

The inspired text also does a better job at conveying doctrine than any translated bible ever could. That's why it was inspired by God and all of the translated bibles weren't. So when you tell people to dumb themselves down by not studying or investigating the meaning of words God inspired, i have no problems informing you that i will soundly ignore your suggestion. God's words are the ones i will live by, not yours'.

There is NO proof text in scripture.

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