What I Like About Universalism

aspen · May 28, 2011

Duckybill said:
Isn't that what I said? Whatever God does is righteous. The Genesis Flood is well documented in the Bible. What God did was right.

Genesis 6:11-13 (ESV)
[sup]11 [/sup]Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight, and the earth was filled with violence. [sup]12 [/sup]And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. [sup]13 [/sup]And God said to Noah, “I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

I am saying it is wrong from our point of view and the only reason I am not blaming God for it is because I am choosing to suspend my judgment - the jury is out until I get more information, Iwould never called it good or right in this lifetime.

Duckybill · May 28, 2011

aspen said:
I am saying it is wrong from our point of view and the only reason I am not blaming God for it is because I am choosing to suspend my judgment - the jury is out until I get more information, Iwould never called it good or right in this lifetime.

Please excuse me if I don't understand some things you say. I am not very familiar with Catholic doctrine. So try to bear with me.

TheWarIs1 · May 31, 2011

Only an unrefined individual with little love for their fellowman would judge someone and tell them they are going to spend eternity in HELL if they believe in such a place.

thankfully God is going to redeem people just like you and those who are even worse than you.

God isn't judging men today John 5:22, 2-Co 5:9
Yeshua didn't come to judge the world ~ John 12:47

So who's judging?

We are so fortunate to have Duckybill here on this planet judging men to HELL.. Not

Foreigner · May 31, 2011

TheWarIs1 said:
Only an unrefined individual with little love for their fellowman would judge someone and tell them they are going to spend eternity in HELL if they believe in such a place.

-- Who knew that Jesus was "unrefined" with "little love" for His fellow man.

He spent more time warning about the dangers of hell than the pleasures of heaven.

He called all Christians to preach His gospel to all the earth. His Gospel is about love but ABSOLUTELY warns that those who do not accept and follow Him will be going to hell.

Deny it if you will, but these are simply the facts.

TheWarIs1 · May 31, 2011

Foreigner said:
-- Who knew that Jesus was "unrefined" with "little love" for His fellow man.

He spent more time warning about the dangers of hell than the pleasures of heaven.

He called all Christians to preach His gospel to all the earth. His Gospel is about love but ABSOLUTELY warns that those who do not accept and follow Him will be going to hell.

Deny it if you will, but these are simply the facts.

You lie. Jesus never mentioned Hell and he spoke on many more things

Foreigner · May 31, 2011

TheWarIs1 said:
You lie. Jesus never mentioned Hell and he spoke on many more things

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." -- Matt. 10:28

-- That is just off the top of my head.

It is obvious that your mind is made up and you don't want to be confused by facts (read: Scripture), so I will leave you on your path of destruction.

I forgive you for calling me a liar.

HammerStone · May 31, 2011

I don't know that I like much to do with Universalism to be honest. While I admire the will for all to be saved - the same will God has in II Peter 3 - I think that the idea that all will indeed be reconciled and saved really begins to change the gospel message. However, as most of you know, I appointed a Moderator here who holds that belief, so I won't sever them from the branch of Christianity.

I think from a humanistic perspective it makes sense, but it really leaves some core convictions and pillars of the faith open to contradiction.

However, if I were to take away something good from it, then I would say it does help us not fix our gaze on hell, but on Jesus. I think that all too often, there is an overemphasis on the hell part. While I believe in many methods of conversion, preaching, and teaching, I think some seize much too tight a grip on preaching hell. Hell is very real, and it's not a good place to be.

I personally believe that the second death means...well...death and not eternal torment which is not quite death. That ticks some folks off, so be it. It's not a good thing to be annihilated and not exist when the children of God enter into eternity, but that is another discussion for another thread.

I like the way the KJV rendered these verses, but there are differing methods of reaching someone:

Jude 22-23
And have mercy on those who doubt; save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.

Foreigner · May 31, 2011

I understand where your opinion comes from HammerStone.

But in order for it to be accurate, Jesus came to earth to die for our sins to prevent us from ending up dying into nothingness. No pain or conciousness forever.

That would also mean that when Jesus said, "Depart from me you cursed ones into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels," only the devil and his angels will burn forever. Those that died in sin, including those that took the mark mentioned in Revelation, will be instantly burned up into nothingness.

I just can't see it.

All the best.

tomwebster · May 31, 2011

HammerStone said:
I don't know that I like much to do with Universalism to be honest. While I admire the will for all to be saved - the same will God has in II Peter 3 - I think that the idea that all will indeed be reconciled and saved really begins to change the gospel message. However, as most of you know, I appointed a Moderator here who holds that belief, so I won't sever them from the branch of Christianity.

I think from a humanistic perspective it makes sense, but it really leaves some core convictions and pillars of the faith open to contradiction.

...

Universalism leads a person to lukewarm. It is contrary to Scripture. Those that teach it will be held accountable for leading God’s children astray and God is not happy with those that lead His children astray.

HammerStone · May 31, 2011

I understand where your opinion comes from HammerStone.

But in order for it to be accurate, Jesus came to earth to die for our sins to prevent us from ending up dying into nothingness. No pain or conciousness forever.

That would also mean that when Jesus said, "Depart from me you cursed ones into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels," only the devil and his angels will burn forever. Those that died in sin, including those that took the mark mentioned in Revelation, will be instantly burned up into nothingness.

I just can't see it.

All the best.

I think there is much confusion on the subject of fire burning and smoke rising forever. Rest assured the punishment will endure either way. The fire references are very important about the nature of God, but I will leave it at that out of concern for the original topic.

Universalism leads a person to lukewarm. It is contrary to Scripture. Those that teach it will be held accountable for leading God’s children astray and God is not happy with those that lead His children astray.

Tom, numerous things lead a Christian to be lukewarm. This is just one of them. I just think we have to be careful about explicitly excluding someone for a belief that they have. Frankly speaking, all of us are going to be wrong on varying doctrines and statements that we've perhaps even taught. I think we have to not sacrifice the fundamentals, but at the same time not create a mutually exclusive religion. There are a lot of people who preach the heck out of...heck...and they're as wrong as wrong as those that preach no hell. (And I suspect not a whole lot better off in the eyes of the One that matters most).

At the end of the day, we should stand against this doctrine as it is wrong, but it's not our call to declare everyone who believes it unChristian or nonChristian.

tomwebster · May 31, 2011

HammerStone said:
....
Tom, numerous things lead a Christian to be lukewarm. This is just one of them. I just think we have to be careful about explicitly excluding someone for a belief that they have. Frankly speaking, all of us are going to be wrong on varying doctrines and statements that we've perhaps even taught. I think we have to not sacrifice the fundamentals, but at the same time not create a mutually exclusive religion. There are a lot of people who preach the heck out of...heck...and they're as wrong as wrong as those that preach no hell. (And I suspect not a whole lot better off in the eyes of the One that matters most).

At the end of the day, we should stand against this doctrine as it is wrong, but it's not our call to declare everyone who believes it unChristian or nonChristian.

Yes, numerous things lead a Christian to be lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, and we know what God thinks about that, don’t we! We also know to whom the letters to the Assemblies were written, the leaders of the Assemblies.

TheWarIs1 · May 31, 2011

HammerStone said:
I think there is much confusion on the subject of fire burning and smoke rising forever. Rest assured the punishment will endure either way. The fire references are very important about the nature of God, but I will leave it at that out of concern for the original topic.

Tom, numerous things lead a Christian to be lukewarm. This is just one of them. I just think we have to be careful about explicitly excluding someone for a belief that they have. Frankly speaking, all of us are going to be wrong on varying doctrines and statements that we've perhaps even taught. I think we have to not sacrifice the fundamentals, but at the same time not create a mutually exclusive religion. There are a lot of people who preach the heck out of...heck...and they're as wrong as wrong as those that preach no hell. (And I suspect not a whole lot better off in the eyes of the One that matters most).

At the end of the day, we should stand against this doctrine as it is wrong, but it's not our call to declare everyone who believes it unChristian or nonChristian.

Anyone can pick up a modern bible and glance over it and come to that conclusion that Hell is real.
it does not make it so. on the surface what appears to be isn't it's own explanation.

You have to overlook many scriptures in order to hold on to the hellfire and damnation beliefs.

Christ never ever mentioned Hell in the original scriptures.
The original writings are what really mattered.

Can you teach as commanded in
1 timothy 4: 10 & 11 ?

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.

That's a command
Who can keep this command?

lawrance · May 31, 2011

I think Universalism is what Christ wants as the whole world to be united as one in Christ but if we are on about this rubbish of uniting all religions under the one religion that is or will be the work of the Devil.
Central world government is not what Christ is about at all as it will fail but we should have unity in Christ only.

aspen · May 31, 2011

MR ROSENBERGER said:
I think Universalism is what Christ wants as the whole world to be united as one in Christ but if we are on about this rubbish of uniting all religions under the one religion that is or will be the work of the Devil.
Central world government is not what Christ is about at all as it will fail but we should have unity in Christ only.

You description of the Devil sure seems transparent......

I've alway thought of him as more clever.......I think it would be more his style to plant ideas in our heads about the danger of unity and one world governments and one religion. What better way to ensure that God's people remain individuals instead of one body?

TheWarIs1 · May 31, 2011

MR ROSENBERGER said:
I think Universalism is what Christ wants as the whole world to be united as one in Christ but if we are on about this rubbish of uniting all religions under the one religion that is or will be the work of the Devil.
Central world government is not what Christ is about at all as it will fail but we should have unity in Christ only.

no no, the teaching of universalism isn't about that at all.

its the belief that God will redeem all men after death.

1timothy 4:10 says that God is the saviour of ALL men, especially those who believe.

Yes God will have wrath on the evil doers. He created the wicked for the day of evil.
Wouldn't he seem likened to a brute if he punished forever those he created to be wicked?

The Wrath may destroy the wicked in the flesh but it doesn't say he won't clean them up and redeem them.

God was in Christ reconciling all things unto himself.

Look up the definition of Reconcile

lawrance · Jun 1, 2011

aspen said:
You description of the Devil sure seems transparent......

I've alway thought of him as more clever.......I think it would be more his style to plant ideas in our heads about the danger of unity and one world governments and one religion. What better way to ensure that God's people remain individuals instead of one body?

Hardly a description of the Devil.
Yes he is clever that's for sure
You don't like people being individuals aspen? i am sure we can be of the same body in Christ tho.
Dangers the Devil !

lawrance · Jun 1, 2011

TheWarIs1 said:
no no, the teaching of universalism isn't about that at all.

its the belief that God will redeem all men after death.

1timothy 4:10 says that God is the saviour of ALL men, especially those who believe.

Yes God will have wrath on the evil doers. He created the wicked for the day of evil.
Wouldn't he seem likened to a brute if he punished forever those he created to be wicked?

The Wrath may destroy the wicked in the flesh but it doesn't say he won't clean them up and redeem them.

God was in Christ reconciling all things unto himself.

Look up the definition of Reconcile

God did not create anyone evil they them self's chose to reject him.

aspen · Jun 1, 2011

MR ROSENBERGER said:
Hardly a description of the Devil.
Yes he is clever that's for sure
You don't like people being individuals aspen? i am sure we can be of the same body in Christ tho.
Dangers the Devil !

I certainly believe that individualism has gone too far; the Western World is suffering from it today. Realitivism, consummerism, private interpration of scriptures, and pathological drive for private ownership have all worked together to isolate members of our society. Instead of relying on our neighbor, we do not even know them. The result is widespread deppression and despair.

avoice · Jun 1, 2011

tomwebster said:
Yes, numerous things lead a Christian to be lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, and we know what God thinks about that, don’t we! We also know to whom the letters to the Assemblies were written, the leaders of the Assemblies.

Very true Tom
......................

Saying this Ok because one might be a christain ??
Its this kind of thinking that leads to the famine that exists for the true Word of God.
in fact its not even our job to try to include or exclude anyone as a christian . Only God can do that
However When one is perfectly aware of a luke warm doctrine or wrong doctrine and encourages it anyway they held more guilty than if they had not known. We are responsable for what we do.

HEBREWS 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins

It is our responsabilty to do what we can to make sure we do not encourage it or play a part in spreading luke warmor wrong doctrines if we know better or we just become part of the problem its a sin in Gods eyes...
Reguardless of the excuse we make up to convince ourselfs its ok with God its not. God will not be mocked and one who has the knowledge to know better and allows it is in poor standing with God

TheWarIs1 · Jun 1, 2011

MR ROSENBERGER said:
God did not create anyone evil they them self's chose to reject him.

That isn't what the scriptures say.

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

What I Like About Universalism

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