Eternal punishment is not the case.

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MatthewG

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Sure, agree.



There are differences between...believer and repentant believers.
There is a time line...for individual People, from ancient man to this day.
* according to who, what, when, why, how an individual person, was, is, shall be saved...or not.

The time line....for every individual person, who was, is, shall be saved...
Regardless of the era of a man (ancient, or today)...
IS...expressly determined while that man’s BODILY LIFE IS ALIVE

Meaning:
Salvation (regardless OF WHEN) it is given a man...
IS ONLY given to persons WHO:
* Believed (in their heart) WHILE “their” Bodily LIFE was ALIVE, and that Belief WAS their Belief at the time of their Bodily Life died.

A body’s LIFE, IS it’s BLOOD.
Once the BLOOD LIFE Dies, that Body can no longer decide to believe.
If that Body, Believes, before it dies...it can stop believing, and will not be saved.
If that Body, Believes, at the time...it is dying, (but before it dies) it will be saved.
(Men who may have never considered, or believed, laying on their death bed, whereby bodily death is in process....that man CAN at that moment before death, believe...and shall be saved.)

Men who did not believe and bodily died...
SHALL have their body’s raised...(by the power of LIFE in their living soul, returning to their body’s) /effected by the Power of God, returning their living souls To their body’s/
Their dead body’s, (void of it’s blood life) (with their living soul returned to their body’s)....
Such body’s SHALL stand Before the Lord...SEE HIM...BELIEVE what they SEE, SHALL bow Dow on their knee to Him in Praise and Worship unto Him.....but Shall NOT BE SAVED.
...The LIFE in their soul (Gods Breath, which belongs to God), shall depart their souls, and Return to God.
...Thereafter, their LIFELESS, body and soul...SHALL BE destroyed...burned to ash, in the Fire Pit, in Hell (that was expressly prepared for the Devil and the false prophet).....but which shall also be a place for Mankind’s , lifeless body and souls that heartfully rejected God...while alive in their body’s blood life.

There is ALSO...some other considerations, regarding certain particular Men...
Their final outcome...Life departed from their body, occurs at bodily death...
(Body returns to dust)
Life departed from their soul...expressly foretold in scripture, regarding Some men...
(Souls restored, life of God remains in the soul)
(Life of God departs the soul, returns to God, soul destroyed)
* What about...living souls, Cast into outer darkness forever alive and separated from God? IS THIS a case to be made FOR ETERNAL Punishment for some?

Glory to God,
Taken

Taken,

Thank you for sharing your insights.
 
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amadeus

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Stunnedbygrace,

Some people do believe that they are annihilated, however I do not believe that is scripturally sound and is bad news.

Yes the devil has been completely done away with along with his demons though darkness exist still today.
Without the Life that Jesus provided every man born to woman is dead.
Ge 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Ge 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

So then according to God's Word, Adam and Eve were dead. The offspring of the dead are also dead. There would be no Life according to God until some received what Jesus brought... but many would never partake of what he brought to them.


Here Jesus speaks of the dead men around him acting like they have Life... when they most certainly do not... at least not according to God:

"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:22


They never have Life so when even that which they call life is gone they have nothing at all:

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecc 9:5
 

MatthewG

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Without the Life that Jesus provided every man born to woman is dead.
Ge 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Ge 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

So then according to God's Word, Adam and Eve were dead. The offspring of the dead are also dead. There would be no Life according to God until some received what Jesus brought... but many would never partake of what he brought to them.


Here Jesus speaks of the dead men around him acting like they have Life... when they most certainly do not... at least not according to God:

"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:22


They never have Life so when even that which they call life is gone they have nothing at all:

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecc 9:5

Hello @amadeus ,

I would agree that all people are spiritually dead until they receive Christ. However though using scriptures to try to adjust to your own theological perspective what is the end result to you in the afterlife for the destination of people?
 

stunnedbygrace

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Without the Life that Jesus provided every man born to woman is dead.

And thus, there is a “doubly dead.” After the second resurrection and the second death. There is a second death. It’s a death, not an eternal life of misery. It’s death, not life.
 
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MatthewG

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Is this death; the second death of dying to the self?

Remember when Jesus said pick up your cross?

24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul.

We are first spiritually dead then made alive, then we are called to die again to ourselves.

Thoughts?
 

MatthewG

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“Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭15:29-31‬ ‭NKJV‬
 

MatthewG

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Every person who has ever died on planet earth has been resurrected into a new spiritual body, so take that into consideration.

All people will be resurrected again: some will have very little spirit because of never having faith; but Jesus precedes this (he is the first of everything). Though they had the choice to believe on earth or not.

Just some random thoughts that just now came to my head. See you again soon.
 

stunnedbygrace

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“Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭15:29-31‬ ‭NKJV‬

I’ve always wondered what that meant - to be baptized for the dead…
 

MatthewG

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Can you give us the verse for that?

You can read about the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15. When we leave this body it will be raised into a new incorruptible body which is spiritual. Also you can see that Jesus will call all from the dead those who are of faith and not of faith; Jesus died for all people and not just for some, as some suggest. That is found in John 5:28-29.
 

amadeus

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Hello @amadeus ,

I would agree that all people are spiritually dead until they receive Christ. However though using scriptures to try to adjust to your own theological perspective what is the end result to you in the afterlife for the destination of people?
Actually, no, I do not so try to use the scriptures to prove my point. Rather studying and reading all of the scriptures and talking to God, I strive to surrender to Him... letting Him fill in the empty places as He sees the need and to make adjustments as He sees the need.

To do this years ago I began going to that lowest room with nothing in my hand or in my brain or in my heart... to allow God to lead me and to form or reform the vision within me of His plan for me in particular but sometimes also for others. Do I have it right? I do not believe so, not completely, but I do believe I am closer than when I first believed. I do believe that there has been growth in me as there needs to be in each of us.

On each point I may be able to tell where I am at the moment. There is now knowledge, but there is still not a definite line that I can draw between that which is knowledge from God in me, and the beliefs held in error.

Growth by faith in God will replace dark places with Light. God alone adds the Light. If people do not admit the possibility of error in themselves, how can they grow? How can God enter in when they refuse to admit that they might have errors? God will not force His way into a person who still has time left in which to choose for himself. We must continue to choose God. We must realize that we can quench the Spirit of God in us.
 
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amadeus

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And thus, there is a “doubly dead.” After the second resurrection and the second death. There is a second death. It’s a death, not an eternal life of misery. It’s death, not life.
What if the second death only occurs to people who have been born again? How can people who have never encountered the Life which Jesus brought die a second time? In the eyes of God, they have never lived, so how can they die? They are already dead! Would not the second death be for any who have received Life and have now oh so foolishly chosen cast it aside in favor of death, like the wife of Lot looking back with longing to Sodom, or like a dog returning to consume his own vomit?
 

MatthewG

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Actually, no, I do not so try to use the scriptures to prove my point. Rather studying and reading all of the scriptures and talking to God, I strive to surrender to Him... letting Him fill in the empty places as He sees the need and to make adjustments as He sees the need.

To do this years ago I began going to that lowest room with nothing in my hand or in my brain or in my heart... to allow God to lead me and to form or reform the vision within me of His plan for me in particular but sometimes also for others. Do I have it right? I do not believe so, not completely, but I do believe I am closer than when I first believed. I do believe that there has been growth in me as there needs to be in each of us.

On each point I may be able to tell where I am at the moment. There is now knowledge, but there is still not a definite line that I can draw between that which is knowledge from God in me, and the beliefs held in error.

Growth by faith in God will replace dark places with Light. God alone adds the Light. If people do not admit the possibility of error in themselves, how can they grow? How can God enter in when they refuse to admit that they might have errors? God will not force His way into a person who still has time left in which to choose for himself. We must continue to choose God. We must realize that we can quench the Spirit of God in us.

Hello @amadeus

I use to believe that people where sent to hell forever and ever tortured by God and that was because it was his will for them to be in this type of thing. I have now moved on from this line of thinking. I never consider people where completely destroyed in the term annihilation.

I have to admit to myself that these are doctrines from men that were supposed upon me as I grew up and listened in and out of churches.

I now believe what the book of the unveiling vision of Jesus Christ and what is suggest about heaven. That inside are believers of the Kingdom, and outside are the unbelievers.

What are your thoughts? I could be wrong but at the same time I wouldn’t suggest something that wasn’t biblically sound. If the book of the unveiling of Plan of Christ Jesus the Lord God Almighty is in fact to destroy people in a lake of fire forever and ever and ever I would reconsider though that isn’t what the book end entails, my friend.
 

amadeus

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Very simply I am an annihilationist. The alternative would be a universalist. I have known two on the Internet. Both were sisters. The first one I met about 20 years ago on another forum, which still exists, but is effectively dead. I lost of that sister long ago.

The second one I have known for many years, and she is a member here although I won't say her name on the public forum.
I use to believe that people where sent to hell forever and ever tortured by God and that was because it was his will for them to be in this type of thing. I have now moved on from this line of thinking. I never consider people where completely destroyed in the term annihilation.
As a young naive Catholic, who had never read the Bible, I believed in an eternal hell of tormenting fire. It has been many years since I believed that.
I have to admit to myself that these are doctrines from men that were supposed upon me as I grew up and listened in and out of churches.

I now believe what the book of the unveiling vision of Jesus Christ and what is suggest about heaven. That inside are believers of the Kingdom, and outside are the unbelievers.

What are your thoughts? I could be wrong but at the same time I wouldn’t suggest something that wasn’t biblically sound. If the book of the unveiling of Plan of Christ Jesus the Lord God Almighty is in fact to destroy people in a lake of fire forever and ever and ever I would reconsider though that isn’t what the book end entails, my friend.
Very simply again, hell, [besides the grave], is here and now for most, if not all people. Heaven is also here as far as space is concerned, but in at least its three levels.

God's plan is simple for Him. [What is not simple to God?] To the carnal mind it is complicated. How much of His plan has God revealed to believers? Different degrees for different people for His reasons, some of those reasons may be known to some men.
 
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OzSpen

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Some say it’s eternal torture. I think it’s a more merciful annihilation because I don’t think a person has eternal anything without the new birth.

satan appears to be a different story though. I think he’s eternal somehow without it…

stunnedbygrace,

The Bible disagrees with you: "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thess 1:9 ESV).

Oz
 

OzSpen

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I believe it has to deal with them, but I don’t know what I’m talking about. Maybe one day I’ll go through it. I did find a bunch of scriptures pertaining to the book of life.


Exodus 32:33
Psalms 69:28
Daniel 12:1
Luke 10:20
Philippians 4:3
Hebrews 12:23
Revelation 3:5
Revelation 13:8;17:8
Revelation 20:12
Revelation 21:27
Revelation 22:19

MatthewG,

You've missed this verse: "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might..." (2 Thess 1:9 ESV)

Oz