The Father
The Son
The Holy Spirit
That's the Trinity .
Three of something .
Of what?
The Trinity
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The Son
The Holy Spirit
That's the Trinity .
Three of something .
Of what?
If he's not your God He can't be your Savior.
Read the OT..
God is our savior.
I believe I gave you many verses.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Is this the sum total of your heretical trinitarianism is based on? I reject your increasingly hateful proclamations.
Your posts just keep getting nastier and nastier. Attack is no substitute for argument.
I'd say it's pretty important.
No other comment necessary...
Except:
Do you suppose suppositions and logical questions may only be invoked to support a proposition?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Answered.
Can't help it if you don't like my answer.
I told you,,,I'd bring the person to Jordon Peterson,
Or @Grailhunter or maybe @Moriah's Song ,
Or many others on this thread.
After all, Jesus is just a man.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
It goes to show the power of your idolatry. Which do you choose:
A. Bring people to Jesus, even if they don't believe he is God.
B. Prevent people from coming to Jesus as you make the trinity an obstacle.
@Wrangler..... @GodsGrace
GodsGrace is telling you what she believes. Godly Lady.
She will fair better before Christ than you.
You and yours preach heresy ....a belief that someone can be saved by a man?
That tens of thousands of Christians were slaughtered for a man?
And it is not her that keeps you from "coming" to Christ....your lack of faith does that.
Regardless of what formula you subscribe to for the Trinity, it is not a matter of salvation.
The issue is faith and belief in Christ as a God and the Son of God.
Only a God can save.....now I can put in a good word for someone, but there is no guarantees. No man can guarantee anything.
You are lost because you do not believe. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God...He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.....And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day…Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Not that scriptures would mean a hill of beans to you.....
A. Bring people to Jesus, even if they don't believe he is God.
B. Prevent people from coming to Jesus as you make the trinity an obstacle.
@Wrangler..... @GodsGrace
GodsGrace is telling you what she believes. Godly Lady.
She will fair better before Christ than you.
You and yours preach heresy ....a belief that someone can be saved by a man?
That tens of thousands of Christians were slaughtered for a man?
And it is not her that keeps you from "coming" to Christ....your lack of faith does that.
Regardless of what formula you subscribe to for the Trinity, it is not a matter of salvation.
The issue is faith and belief in Christ as a God and the Son of God.
Only a God can save.....now I can put in a good word for someone, but there is no guarantees. No man can guarantee anything.
You are lost because you do not believe. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God...He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.....And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day…Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Not that scriptures would mean a hill of beans to you.....
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
The Roman Govenor did not find Jesus guilty of a capital crime and therefore refused to execute him. But the Jews put the fear into Pilate by challenging his political career.....threatening to report him to Caesar for treason (a capital offense) by allowing another man who claimed to be a king of the Jews, to live. When Pilate said..."see your King" the Jews shouted "we have no king but Caesar". They meant it....Yahweh was not their King because Jesus had indicated that the Jewish leadership was bound for "gehenna". (Matthew 23)
God abandoned them as serial covenant breakers once his purpose in connection with them was complete. (Matthew 23:37-39) He had no further obligation to them.
This is assumed by you and other trinitarians.....there is no direct statement that Jesus could resurrect himself...that would mean that he never died.
It clearly states that "God resurrected Jesus"......Jesus was dead....in the Jewish understanding of the word....not the apostate Christian interpretation. "Dead" to a Jew, meant dead....not alive in some other place in spirit form.....that idea came from the platonic Greeks which they adopted later. The Jews believed in resurrection of the kind Jesus performed on Lazarus.... (John 11:11-14) ....a restoration back to earthly life.
"Lord" means "master" and "theos" means 'a divine mighty one', so Thomas as an apostle, taught by Jesus along with the rest, would not have committed blasphemy either. None of the apostles ever said that Jesus was God. What did Peter say?
Matthew 16:13-17....
"When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others, Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the Prophets.” 15 “But you,” he said to them, “who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Then Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my heavenly Father."
Did Thomas believe differently to the other apostles? How could he? In Greek "theos" does not mean Yahweh...it simply acknowledges Christ's divinity, which is not to be confused with deity. Christ can be divine without being God.
Since 'wheat' would always be among the 'weeds' till the harvest time, it is by their conduct that you can clearly see the difference.
The "wheat" among the Jewish "weeds" was obvious by the way they treated Jesus at his trial....spurred on by their corrupt leadership, you think that the people were not as guilty as the leaders they had chosen to believe?
"With one voice the entire crowd cried out, “Let his blood be on us and on our children!"
They cursed themselves with his blood. As a nation they no longer have any part with Yahweh...though individuals Jews can certainly come to Christ and acknowledge him as Messiah. (Acts 10:34-35)
Jesus was 100% human or he could not pay the set redemption price that would release Adam's children from slavery to sin and death.
Jesus had to be the exact equivalent of Adam...a perfect sinless man, which is why no sinful offspring of Adam could do it. God's law demanded equivalency....like for like..."eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth...life for a life".
"Atonement" means "at-one-ment" one for one. So if Jesus was God, the price was way too high. An immortal could never pay the equivalent of a mortal.....that would be like a million, quadrillion cans of bug spray to kill one mosquito.
Jesus as a created son of God was not an immortal otherwise he could not have died. His God raised him from the dead after the debt was paid. Since Jesus calls his Father "my God" even after his return to heaven, Yahweh remains the God of Jesus to this day and forever. (Revelation 3:12)
The problem is that Jesus is a divine son of God but he is not deity....and never was.
He is a servant of God (Acts 4:27) and remains so as his Father's most trusted and beloved "only begotten son". The only "son" who was a unique, direct creation of his Father.
I am looking forward to the new thread.....
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
What indeed
.....if a policeman told you to "Stop, in the name of the law" is he the Law or is he a representative of the law...an enforcer and upholder of it?Getting baptized "in the name of the Father" is acknowledging Yahweh as the Creator and lawgiver.
"In the name of the Son" is acknowledging the value of Christ's ransom sacrifice, because he was sent by his Father.
"In the name of the holy spirit" is acknowledging the role that God's spirit plays along with those other vital components that led a person to want to be baptized as a disciple of Christ.....a footstep follower....an imitator of the one who was sent by his God to redeem humanity.
Ooooh look, there is "three of something" is rather childish I feel. That is not a trinity, but a recognition of the necessary elements that combine to allow one to become a Christian in the first place.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
You are wrong and @GodsGrace is correct here.
No doubt that Yeshua is a God....a full-fledged God......Yahweh's only begotten Son. And no matter of twisting the scriptures will prove otherwise.
Another false belief.....tick tock tick tock
Jesus is God's agent through whom God accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God
the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us:
"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).
"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… has blessed us… in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself” (Eph.1:3-5).
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).
"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus” (Rom. 2:16).
"For God… has saved us, and called us... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9).
"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has caused us to be born-again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).
"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen" (Jude 25).
"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.
Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.
So what’s this through (dia) about in all these verses???
Through or Dia is the “preposition of attendant circumstances" and signifies instrumental agency. Put simply, this means that dia denotes the means by which an action is accomplished. And Scripture tells us that God the originator is bringing His purpose, His logos to fulfillment through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Agent, the Mediator of God's master plan. Jesus is always seen as secondary, or subordinate to the Father. There are occasional exceptions to this general use of the preposition dia. Sometimes blessings are said to come to us through God (e.g. 1 Cor 1:9; Heb.2: 10). But usually there is a clear distinction made between God’s initiating activity and the means through which God brings that activity to pass. The prepositions used of God's action are hypo and ek which point to primary causation or origin.
Let's cement this idea in our minds by looking at one or two verses that highlight the difference: “yet for us there is but one God, the father, from [ek,‘out from’ ] whom are all things, and we exist for [ eis, ‘to’ ] Him; and one lord, Jesus Christ,through [dia] him” (1Cor.8:6).
Prepositions are the signposts that point out the direction of a passage. Ek indicates something coming out from its source or origin, and indicates motion from the interior. In other words, all things came out from the loving heart of God, or God's “interior”, so to speak.
This agrees with Genesis 1:1 which says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Both verses say that the source of “all things” is the one true God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. In contradistinction to this "one God and Father" out of Whom all things originate, the "one Lord, Jesus Messiah” is giving the preposition dia which means "through." In other words, Jesus is God's agent through whom God accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us
Act 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He (God) has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
Jane, you latch onto every single word...it doesn't make it easy to talk to you!
As you must well know, each gospel had a reason for being written.
Matthew wrote to the Jewish Christians to show that Jesus was the long-awaited Messiah.
Mark was the first gospel written, and from which Matthew copied some info, and was written to show the works, teachings and the person of Jesus.
Luke wanted to write a gospel that was more like a biography of the life of Christ and how He was a perfect person.
John wrote His gospel at a time when gnosticism was invading the church...he was old and wanted to make sure that those reading
the gospels understood that Jesus is God.
HOWEVER, ALL of the gospel writers knew there was something special about Jesus and that He had authority as never before seen and that He was killed because He said He was God - and this they came to accept after the resurrection.
So, yes, all the writers believed that Jesus is God.
(I wish we could stay on track)
Why?
We Christians believe there is only One God.
Either you or me could fit 2 Cor 4:3-4...don't be so sure it's trinitarians.
I don't know what verse Christians post to you, but there are many.
Here's one, which you should explain away - at least to yourself:
Colossians 2:9
For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body.
Colossians 1:15-16
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation,
16for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him – all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers – all things were created through him and for him.
17He himself is before all things and all things are held together in him.
1. God lives, in His fullness, in Christ.
2. Jesus is the first born over all creation. Begotten, not made. NOT MADE.
3. All things were created by Him.
4. Jesus, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, was before all things. He said BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM.
2 Cor 4:4b
...They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ.
Who has glory, but God?
John 1:14
John 1:18
18No one has ever seen the God, but the unique One, who is Himself God. (NET)
OR
18No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (NASB)
Unique One
Firstborn
Begotten these all have the same theological meaning.
You just put too much on the table Jane.
Can't we do one idea at a time PLEASE?
I'll try to reply to the rest later on.
Two comments:
1. Jesus had to be God to free us from our sins.
How could any human pay back GOD for disobeying Him as Adam had done?
A PERFECT person had to pay the price for Adam's sin....
Just as a perfect lamb had to be the sacrifice for the Passover.
Adam's sin was too great...the relationship between God and His precious creation was broken.
Jesus was the Perfect Lamb of God.
Hebrews 9:11-14
11But now Christ has come as the high priest of the good things to come. He passed through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, 12and he entered once for all into the most holy place not by the blood of goats and calves but by his own blood, and so he himself secured eternal redemption. 13For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow sprinkled on those who are defiled consecrated them and provided ritual purity, 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.
Hebrews 10:12
12But our High Priest offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God’s right hand. 13There he waits until his enemies are humbled and made a footstool under his feet. 14For by that one offering he forever made perfect those who are being made holy.
15And the Holy Spirit also testifies that this is so. For he says,
16“This is the new covenant I will make
with my people on that day,c says the LORD:
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
Please note:
1. Our High Priest sat down in the place of honor at God's right hand.
He perfects those that are being sanctified.
2. THE HOLY SPIRIT testifies.....only a person can testify.
The Holy Spirit is referred to as HE.
2. Divine ad Deity is the same. If one is divine, he is deity.
You and I are not divine.
When Jesus told the Apostles to baptize IN THE NAME OF: This means ONE GOD.What indeed
Getting baptized "in the name of the Father" is acknowledging Yahweh as the Creator and lawgiver.
"In the name of the Son" is acknowledging the value of Christ's ransom sacrifice, because he was sent by his Father.
"In the name of the holy spirit" is acknowledging the role that God's spirit plays along with those other vital components that led a person to want to be baptized as a disciple of Christ.....a footstep follower....an imitator of the one who was sent by his God to redeem humanity.
Ooooh look, there is "three of something" is rather childish I feel. That is not a trinity, but a recognition of the necessary elements that combine to allow one to become a Christian in the first place.
Jesus did NOT say to baptize IN THE NAMES OF: Plural.
Your policeman analogy doesn't work because Jesus put Himself in the mix of the 3.
He is THE SON.
THE WORD of God
THE LOGOS of God
who existed from the "beginning". (because we have not other way to state this when, really, there was no beginning).
Both Adam and Jesus were created by God. Adam was formed out of the ground and Jesus was formed in the womb of Mary. Neither had a human father. Adam is also referred to as the Son of God
Luk 3:38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the Son of God.
Jesus is not the Logos… Jesus spoke the Logos!
Logos - This word is translated in English as "Word". This word has an actual meaning which has been almost completely lost due to the Greek philosophical interpretation of John 1:1-3 & 14.
who testified to the word (Logos) of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. (Rev 1:2)
"I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word (logos) of God." (Rev 20:4)
Notice that they were beheaded for their testimony to Jesus AND for the logos of God.
Jesus and the word of God are not the same thing.
Webster 1828 Dictonary
And
AND, conj.
And is a conjunction, connective or conjoining word. It signifies that a word or part of a sentence is to be added to what precedes. Thus, give me an apple and an orange; that is, give me an apple, add or give in addition to that, an orange. John and Peter and James rode to New York, that is, John rode to New York; add or further, Peter rode to New York; add James rode to New York.
Logos - 1. Denotes an internal reasoning process, plan, or intention, as well as an external word. 2. The expression of thought. As embodying a conception or idea (New American Bible (footnote) & Vine’s Expository Dictionary).
According to Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon, it also means:
Logos - the inward thought which is expressed in the spoken word.
I will give you a brief paraphrase of John 1:1-3 using the definitions for "logos:"
"In the beginning was God's plan, will, or idea for our salvation. It was present in his mind, and God's plan or will possessed all the attributes of God."
The very Trinitarian Roman Catholic New American Bible has this comment on this verse:
"Lack of a definite article with "God" in Greek signifies predication rather than identification."
Predication - to affirm as a quality or attribute (Webster's Dictionary).
So how does the Word (logos) become flesh in John 1:14? Let me use an example which most of us can relate to. We are all familiar with the expression, "was this baby planned?" Let's say it was planned. You and your wife had a plan to have a baby. You had a logos, a plan. Your plan (logos) became flesh the day that your baby was born. In the same way, God's plan of salvation for us became a reality, became flesh, when Jesus was born. This verse is probably one of the biggest culprits in the creation of the trinity. The reason being that to someone educated in Greek philosophy such as the early church fathers of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th, centuries, logos had an entirely different meaning. Tertullian who was responsible for much of the creation of the trinity was a Stoic lawyer. The Stoics defined "logos" as the "divine principle of life." Which is basically a definition of God. With this definition you are going to arrive at a completely different interpretation than what John intended. You will interpret it something like this:
"In the beginning was the divine principle of life, and the divine principle of life was with God, and the divine principle of life was God. Then, the divine principle of life became flesh."
With this definition you arrive at the conclusion that the divine principle of life, which is God, became flesh. Now you have God's essence in two places at once. The explanation for this obvious problem came in the form of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Then you have God's essence in flesh, so the description of Jesus becomes that he is fully God and fully man. These concepts come straight out of Greek philosophy. Greek philosophers believed that man was composed of flesh and a divine spark.
John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word( logos ) I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Again… Jesus spoke the Logos, He is not the Logos
2 Great posts Pierac.
1:30 am here - can hardly think anymore!
Your stoic translation BTW, seems to be correct to me...
to be cont'd...
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
......................................
A NT language expert highly respected by trinitarians tells us that Bible phrases beginning “in the name of...” indicate that the secondary meaning of “authority” or “power” was intended by the Bible writer. - p. 772, Vine. Therefore, Matt. 28:19 actually means: “baptizing them in recognition of the power [or the authority] of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy spirit.”
That W. E. Vine specifically includes Matt. 28:19 in this category can be further shown by his statement on p. 772 of his reference work. When discussing the secondary meaning of “name” (“authority,” “power”) he says that it is used
“in recognition of the authority of (sometimes combined with the thought of relying on or resting on), Matt. 18:20; cp. 28:19; Acts 8:16....”
Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol.1, p. 245, makes the same admission when discussing Matt. 28:19:
“The use of name (onoma) here is a common one in the Septuagint and the papyri for power or authority.”
Noted trinitarian scholars McClintock and Strong say in their Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature concerning Matthew 28:18-20:
"This text, however, taken by itself, would not prove decisively either the personality of the three subjects mentioned, or their equality or divinity." (1981 reprint, Vol. X, p. 552)
And trinitarian scholar Kittel in his Theological Dictionary of the New Testament:
"The N[ew] T[estament] does not actually speak of triunity. We seek this in vain in the triadic formulae [including Matthew 28:19, of course] of the NT."
It shouldn’t be surprising, then, if the holy spirit is not a person, to find this single instance of the word “name” being used with “the holy spirit” where it is used in the phrase beginning with “in the name of...” which is specifically linked to the minority meaning of “authority,” “power,” etc.
What should be surprising (beyond all credibility, in fact) would be that the holy spirit is a person, equally God, who never has the word onoma (“name”) used for “Him” in its most-used sense of “personal name” (as do the Father and the Son—hundreds of times).
Yes, as we have already seen, the holy spirit is never called by a personal name, and Matt. 28:19 is the only instance of onoma being applied to the holy spirit at all!
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Sorry...it’s how my mind works....I have to know the why and how of everything....I have been this way since childhood and hence my exit from Christendom in my early twenties because their beliefs were logically incomprehensible to me as was their idea of God. If God gave us our sense of logic, then he was not going to end up being a person whose existence is totally illogical.
I scrutinized the scriptures, using different translations and the translation was all over the place....nothing was the way Christ taught things.
Thankfully as time has progressed, all the information I needed was available on the internet....now there is no excuse for spiritual laziness or ignorance.
Yes he was.....but not one time did Jesus ever say that he was Almighty God or even his equivalent. Not once did the apostles teach that Jesus was Almighty God, because they too would have been guilty of blasphemy.....a capital offense.
No, sorry...you are reading into their words what they NEVER ONCE said. Christ never once said he was God....please provide scripture that says he did. Not from the lying Jews who wanted an excuse to kill him...but from the man himself.
NO you don't. If there is "God the Father", "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit" then you have three gods.
Never once does it say in scripture that the Holy Spirit is God. Both Jesus and God's spirit came from God, but neither ARE God.
It is God's spirit than emanates from him, but is itself not a person, but God's power, directed to whatever or whomever God wishes it to go.
Again you are reading into scripture what you want it to say.....not one of these texts says that Jesus is God.
What translation are you using?
In this verse the word "theotēs" occurs only once in the whole Bible, therefore there is no other verse to compare it to.
Translators were free to translate it as they wished, believing that it is derived from G2316 ("theos") and giving the meaning of "divinity (abstractly):—godhead."
But here is no such word as "godhead" in the Bible. It is a trinitarian invention.
Without the trinity forcing the translation, it can read also as..."all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily."
As Colossians 1:19 says...(Mounce Interlinear)
"For hoti God was pleased eudokeō to have all pas his ho fullness plērōma dwell katoikeō in en him autos".
"πλήρωμα plḗrōma, play'-ro-mah; from G4137; repletion or completion, i.e. (subjectively) what fills (as contents, supplement, copiousness, multitude), or (objectively) what is filled (as container, performance, period):—which is put in to fill up, piece that filled up, fulfilling, full, fulness." (Strongs)
So Jesus was filled with Holy Spirit just as others before him were....only in a different way, in a different role.
As the apostle Peter said....Acts 2:22 (NCB)
“Men of Israel, hear these words. Jesus of Nazareth was a man commended to you by God by means of miracles and portents and signs that God worked through him, as you yourselves know."
"Only begotten" when referring to Jesus carries no special meaning in that this term simply refers to an "only child".
No one said that Jesus was "made" but he was "created" as the scriptures clearly show. Only a created being can be called a "son of God".
A "firstborn" is the first of others that come after....otherwise it makes no sense to call Jesus a "firstborn" (Colossians 1:15) or an "only begotten" unless there were other 'sons' or a 'begetter' who caused their existence. The Father/Son relationship is what is established by Jesus himself, but Jesus was a "son" before he became a human. He was the first of many "sons of God" according to the Bible.
His uniqueness is because he was the only "Son of God" who was a direct creation of his Father.
What else does that scripture say? "all things were created through him and for him."
You underlined it yourself....."through him and for him" makes no sense if God is speaking of himself.
How does one part of God create things "through" another equal part of himself? How does one part of God create things "for" the other equal part of himself.....if you really think it through, what is suggested by the trinity is absolutely ridiculous.
I have explained this so many times.....
Of course he was "before all things"....he was the very "beginning of God's creation" (Revelation 3:14)
All things came "through" the son from the Father.
All spirit beings are glorious.....even satan the devil is described as such before his defection. (Ezekiel 28:13-15)
Again...what translation are you using? It is terrible!
Read that verse in the Greek Interlinear....
"No one oudeis has horaō ever pōpote seen horaō God theos. The only monogenēs Son , himself God theos, the ho one who is eimi in eis the ho bosom kolpos of the ho Father patēr, he ekeinos has made him known exēgeomai."
Here is a classic example of adding words to the text that simply are not there...."Son himself" is added and distorts the verse completely.....skewed towards the trinity by those who should have known better.
Apart from telling us that "no one has ever seen God" it also says that "monogenes theos" has made him known. That is correctly translated "only begotten god" as the NASB renders it.
Trinitarians shied away from that translation because it raised the inconvenient question of "how can God be begotten?"
We are not at liberty to add to the text in a deliberate attempt to distort its meaning.
I hope I have stuck to the script for you.....
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
If you understand the way "redemption" works, you would see why the ransom paid could never have been paid by God himself.
As I have mentioned many times before....all Jesus needed to be was the sinless equivalent of Adam.....he was the "last Adam" because he cancelled the debt left for us by the first Adam. If God himself paid the ransom, it was overpaid to the point of ridiculous.
The reasons why God could not pay the ransom for mankind was because....
1) God is immortal and cannot die......mere mortals cannot kill God.
2) God "sent" his son, (who was not immortal) to offer his sinless life in exchange for ours.
Because he was 100% human he could die and release us from Adam's debt.
3) The Bible says that God raised his son from the dead...not that he raised himself.
Again you are reading into scripture what you want it to say....@tigger 2 has given a sound explanation, above.
It does not mean three separate gods, or three separate parts of one God, but acknowledging the three necessary components in a Christian's life that leads them to Baptism. They are to "love the Father with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength".
They are to appreciate the sacrifice that Jesus made for them in giving his life for all obedient ones, commemorating the event each year as the Passover was commemorated by the Jews.....and they are to also see the role of God's spirit in helping Christ's disciples to fulfill their dedication to God as a disciple of his Christ. The Holy Spirit empowers God's servants to endure whatever the devil throws at them.
The Father as Creator, the son as Redeemer, and the Holy Spirit as the power that brings about God's purpose as he wishes.
Wow... she hit you up with so much data it's hard for you to even begin to reply... Let me help with Colossians
In so far as it is used by the "traditionalists" to justify belief in a personally preexistent Christ, the passage in Colossians 1:15-19 ranks right up there with John 1 and Philippians 2. It is easy to see how this conclusion is reached, when the passages read in the gridlock of "orthodoxy."
Paul wrote:
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
We must carefully examine both the overall context and the particular phrases before rushing to the conclusion that the apostle is teaching that Jesus the Son of God created the heavens and the earth, and that he is therefore coequal with God the Father, the second member of the Trinity.
Everything we have looked at so far would indicate that Paul has not suddenly done a back flip from his clearly stated belief that there is "one God, the Father… and one Lord, Jesus the Messiah" (1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:5-6, etc.).
The overall context must be clearly borne in mind. Observe in Colossians 1 that "all things" created are not "the heavens and the earth" as per Genesis 1:1, but rather "all things in the heavens and [up]on the earth." These things are defined as "thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities." Evidently, Jesus has been given authority to restructure the arrangements of angels as well as being the agent for the creation of the body of Christ on earth, the Church.
The apostle Paul is "giving thanks to the Father" because He "has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light," which is to say that God the Father has "delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved son" (v. 12-13). Paul is thus speaking of the new creation that God has effected through His Son Jesus. He is speaking of things that relate to "redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (v.14) and "the church" (v.18) and how through the Son of the Father God has "reconciled all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross" (v.20).
Kuschel in his book "Born Before All Time? p.331. Says, "the direct context of the Colossians hymn is itself of an eschatological kind and represents the ‘shift of the ages.’" G.E. Ladd in his book A Theology of the New Testament, p.323. states. “In other words, ‘the New Testament does not merely picture the resurrection of Jesus as the resurrection of a corpse, but as the emergence within time and space of a new order of life.’"
When the Father raised Jesus to life again it was not only an isolated historical event. It was more importantly the injection into history of the beginning of "the eschatological resurrection." Eternal life-the life of the ages to come-is guaranteed in Christ who is "the first fruits" of all who
will follow. (1Cor.15:23). Jesus is the first of a whole crop of new-life first to come! A new order of things now exist. A new age in prospect has already begun. If "anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things [have] passed away; behold, new things have come" (2 Cor. 5:17).
To be baptized into Christ is to already in prospect be "in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom.6:5). We are already "seated with Christ in the heavenlies" (Eph. 2:6). Because Christ has been raised to the glory of the Father, we are already in promise "glorified" (Rom. 8:30). We have been transferred into "the kingdom of His beloved Son" (Col. 1:13).
It is this tectonic shift in the ages that is the context of this hymn of praise. We are looking at a whole new order of things. The waves of this continental shift from the resurrection of Christ are rolling towards the distant shoreline of the coming Kingdom of God with tsunami-like power.
Old authorities and structures have been rattled, for Christ is now the head of God's of new creation. A new dynasty in God universe has been inaugurated. This is the cosmological contexts of the individual phrases we will now see.
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