How close is the Seven Year Tribulation?

veteran · Nov 4, 2011

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, veteran.

I see two problems in your estimation: First and foremost, get out of the habit of thinking that everything Yeshua` said had to be symbolic and metaphors!

I never intimated that everything Christ said was a spiritual metaphor. But some things He taught definitely ARE given as a parable or symbolic metaphor. And the 'travail with child' idea is one of them. Not only did He give that, but so did Apostle Paul in 2 Cor.11 and 1 Thess.5. And it serves as an immovable 'anchor' to specific warnings in His Word. That particular metaphor is in regards to false worship to another in His place. I feel sorry for those who miss it.

I am reminded of the following quote:

More can be read at http://www.middletow...pen/literal.htm.

Unless the text demands that a passage be taken symbolically, assume it is literal FIRST! I see nothing in Matthew 24 or Mark 13 or Luke 21 that demand anything to be taken as metaphors, except one's own prejudices and expectations on the passages! Don't READ INTO the passages what you expect to see! That's eisegesis. READ to GAIN understanding FROM the passages without prejudice or expectation, as much as is humanly possible, letting the Scriptures speak to YOU! That's exegesis.

Then you have totally missed Christ's command for us to learn a PARABLE of the fig tree also given in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13. The parables and spiritual metaphors Christ gave are always about literal truths. The reason He gave them was obviously to hide it from those it was 'not given', and for those it was, to make His Message easier to understand.

Now if you want a lesson on this, try interpreting the "Blessed are the barren" metaphor of Isaiah 54:1 in the literal sense. I started a separate thread just on that. You could post your response to it there.

Secondly, no prophecy has two fulfillments. If a prophecy comes from God, there will be ONE SPECIFIC fulfillment to verify that the prophecy came from God. Prophecies that are nebulous enough to provide more than one fulfillment are false prophecies by false prophets, such as Jeanne Dixon. Prophecies so nebulous provide a buffer - a cushion - to protect the false prophet by multiple possibilities in their fulfillment, increasing their odds of being perceived as a trustworthy prophet.

You're definitely wrong on that. Go to Jeremiah 46:1 and start reading, and then note in verse 10 this: "For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that He may avenge Him of His adversaries...". God said that in relation to His destruction upon the historical kingdoms He mentions there. And He applied it to the end time destruction of the Revelation Babylon also. As a matter of fact, Christ's usage of Babylon once again in His Book of Revelation is proof of how He uses prophetic 'blueprints' in His Word. Even the very same words used in Isaiah 21 about the destruction of historical Babylon are used by Christ again in Rev.18 about the destruction of the end time Babylon system. Why?

Because it's a way to cover a whole lot of information in a very simple way. If our Lord Jesus used Babylon as a symbol in Revelation about the end, even the same words used in Isaiah 21 about historical Babylon's destruction, then what is He telling us by that? It's a big hint for us to go back in the Old Testament Books of the prophets, and STUDY the events about historical Babylon AS A PATTERN BLUEPRINT for the end of this world. And what kind of parallels does that give us?

Well, Nebuchadnezzar setup a golden idol image of himself for all to bow in false worship to at the sound of the psalter. Is there a Revelation parallel? Yes, with the image of the beast the one speaking as a dragon is to setup per the end of Rev.13. There are many other parallels than just that one.

Secondly, Antiochus Epiphanes in 170 B.C. fulfilled the Daniel 11 prophecy of the "vile person" and "abomination of desolation" almost to a tee, as he conquered Jerusalem and desolated the inside of the temple at Jerusalem with sacrificing swine upon the altar, and then setting up an idol for false worship to Zeus. Yet Christ Jesus foretold of the "abomination of desolation" coming, which was already around 200 years PAST the days of Antiochus!

If another temple is built by the Jews in Jerusalem for the end, as they plan to do, and it is destroyed by Christ's coming, then that will definitely be the fulfilled prophecy Christ gave in Matt.24 and Mark 13 and Luke 21. The Roman's 69 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple left quite a few huge stones standing in Jerusalem, even to today, called 'the western wall'. So if one wants to be a Legalist, then how is it Christ said not one stone will be standing on top of another when those stones of the Western Wall are still standing today?

While there is such a thing as a double reference, i.e. a passage in which part of the passage is fulfilled at one time while another part is fulfilled at a later time, such as Zechariah 9:9-10 (Bible Prophecy For Blockheads by Douglas Connelly, p. 33), or Yeshua`s partial quotation of Isaiah 61:1-3, it is NOT right to assume that a passage in Dani'el could be fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes and then again by some "Antichrist" in the future!

Ah, but now you're starting to contradict yourself. From the start I mentioned that a 'blueprint' fulfillment will always exclude some parameters given in the whole prophecy. With the not one stone standing on top of another, there's the evidence for the 'blueprint' or shadow still lacking complete fulfillment.

In Matt.24 with the 'woe to those with child' reference, that would only be missed by someone not studied in that Old Testament metaphor. Christ gave that within the 6th sign involving the setting up of the "abomination of desolation", which is about the setting up of an idol in false worship in Jerusalem. It's also why Apostle Paul used it in 1 Thess.5 of those in darkness, and why he used it in 2 Cor.11 about his wanting to present us to Christ as a "chaste virgin" espoused to one Husband (a direct reference to the 'blessed are the barren' metaphor in Isaiah 54).

Wanting to leave out the pattern which Antiochus IV served in that is man's attempt to push his own prophetic traditions instead of paying attention to events God has already shown us so we won't get all mixed up. What Antiochus IV did in Jerusalem is a very important component in understanding the "abomination of desolation" prophecy; especially in light of the Romans in 69 A.D. never being able to capture the temple and enter inside it (per Josephus, the temple burned down before the Romans could capture it, as they had intended).

If a prophecy doesn't have a concrete fulfillment, how would one know when it was fulfilled?! That position makes no sense at all.

Bible prophecy DOES have concrete fulfillment. That's why so many miss OT prophecies that contain parameters that were NEVER fulfilled historically. Many instead are wrongly taught, "well, all this was fulfilled in Isaiah's days, or Ezekiel's days, etc.", never looking deeply enough to rightly divide what was historical from what is still future. Some claim Zechariah 14 is already fulfilled, simply because it's in the Old Testament Books.

I'm not going to bother with all your "metaphors" because I don't believe they are metaphors at all! Furthermore, it's ludicrous to find the "meaning" of these "metaphors" in some of the Scriptures to which you refer! 2 Sam. 18:24 makes no more sense to "define" the "metaphor" of the rooftop than did 2 Sam. 18:12!

In the Messiah's love anyway,
Roy

I entered the reference 2 Samuel wrong in previous post. Here's the passage I was speaking of...

2 Sam 18:24
24 And David sat between the two gates: and the watchman went up to the roof over the gate unto the wall, and lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold a man running alone.
(KJV)

Isa 22:1
22:1 The burden of the valley of vision. What aileth thee now, that thou art wholly gone up to the housetops?
KJV

HOUSE
the roof top:

Here, in national calamities, the people retired to bewail their state (Isa 15:3; Jer 48:38); here in times of danger they watched the foe advancing (Isa 22:1, "thou art wholly gone up to the housetops"), or the bearer of tidings approaching (2 Sam 18:24,33).
(from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1998 by Biblesoft)

Mark 13:15
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
(KJV)

That idea of not going back down into the house is as a warning to get ready to flee. But the reason for being upon the "housetop" in that time is about being a 'watchman'.

And it was in relation to this as a watchman...

Matt 24:42-44
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
(KJV)

BibleScribe · Nov 4, 2011

veteran said:
...
Secondly, Antiochus Epiphanes in 170 B.C. fulfilled the Daniel 11 prophecy of the "vile person" and "abomination of desolation" almost to a tee, ...

Ummmmmm, you are correct if you discount the preceding verses, the verses in question, the subsequent verses, and the angelic guidance to "shut up and seal the words of the book until the time of the end".

And given those small deviations, you are exactly correct.

BibleScribe

tgwprophet · Nov 8, 2011

[sub]vetran wrote: "The way the Dan.9:27 verse reads, the 'league' is made for the full "one week" (1260 days + 1260 days = one week). So who is it that makes that 'league' at the start of the 'one week', if not the "vile person" of Dan.11:21-23? If the dragon is not cast down until after... the first half of that one week is over per Rev.12, then it would suggest the dragon is not who will make that 'league', and not the 'vile person'. To prepare for the abomination to be setup, it suggests the temple and sacrifices must be in place prior to the "midst of the week". What say ye?"[/sub]

[sub] I say: the Anti-christ that Satan will take the body of (thus the reason for the image of the beast being needed) is the vile person. He sets up the Abomination of Desolation. The Abomination of Desolation, in this case, is when AND where Satan is cast unto the earth - but begins when that vile person enter the inner-sanctm. The one that emerges IS Satan himself. This is where we see an entrance by Satan that allows him the GLORIOUS entrance befittng the Dragon. Does one think the great deceiver will enter with no fan-fare, no cerimony. no acclaim? This type of entrance evens boots his EGO, besides it also strnghtens he worlds desire to follow him.[/sub]

[sub] Now, since no one else (except me, as of yet - and to the best of my knowledge) teaches Satan enters in this manner... WE can understand that the world will not recognize it as such and therefore will not realze it. This is when the woman is protected further and this is when the 2 winesses are killed. Satan is strong enough to kill the 2 witnesses BUT the anti-christ is npt. Satan takes the body of the anti-christ and glorifies it with his beauty. Doing this means, Satan has an "inplace" history and power!!! IF Satan could change-destroy the word of God by alterng it... like the anti-christ killing the two witnesses before they had a chance to ful fill the 1,260 days of their power, he certainly would, and that explains why the anti-christ is not powerful enough to kill them. The even of the Abomination of Desolation will be the biggest event in Tribulations and probably even more... Who can think Satan will not be at the enter of this?[/sub]

tgwprophet · Nov 8, 2011

I once had troouble with a flying goat. We had bout a bill goat and kept him penned up for a week. The day I let him out I also decide to sit with him in the barn and befriend him, boy was he vocal for the fist ten minutes or so. As he stood about 15 feet from me... I could hear him talk.. naa naa naa. But his mouth was not moving, My ears told me he was outside the barn and up high. This disturbed me and dang, it was wierd. The acoustics of the barn provided for excellent effect. This went on for some time. Then all of a sudden the voice was flying overhead... naa... naa... naa... As it turns out, a mocking bird had imitated the voice of the goat and continued as it flew accross the field. It was the first time I ever heard a moking bird. This story is true. Take lesson from a flying goat, it shows how easily our perceptions can be distorted.

BibleScribe · Nov 10, 2011

Hey Terry,

So if one were to follow your analogy, and apply that life-experience to Daniel 9, -- could he/she solve the Daniel 9 riddle as you solved yours?

1. Daniel 9:2 specifies "years".

2. Daniel 9:2 does not use the simple shama to perceive the prophecy of Jeremiah as though reading that book, but rather the Soloman biyn to perceive the prophecy in the BOOKS.

3. Daniel 9:25"going forth of the word" does NOT have the inference of any edict from man, but rather and edict directly from GOD.

4. The Daniel 9:25seven is one duration with an anointed one "coming" after that duration.

5. The Daniel 9:25-26 sixty-two weeks is a second duration with a second anointed one who is cut off after that duration.

6. The "weeks"/"week" are the inconcise Masculine gender text, which are specifically NOT 490 years.

7. The second anointed one who is cut off is not killed upon the sixty-two, but simply AFTER.

8. The destroyer does not come at the beginning, middle, or upon the end of the seventieth shabuwa, but "shall come" after the seventieth shabuwa.

9. The seven, the sixty-two, the seventieth, and after the seventieth are chronologically connected, with NO ~2,000 year gaps.

10. This prophecy is shut up and sealed until the time of the end, which is approximate to 1948.

BibleScribe

tgwprophet · Nov 15, 2011

I am sorry BiblScribe, but I do not understand what your point is. If your referring to the flying goat as a life experience to use for Daniel, it was not my intent. The reason for the flying goat post was to allow us to understand just how vunerable our persceptions can be when conditions allow. When we consider the limited ability of the human mind compounded with the vast limitations of language(s) we find so much room for mis-understanding. If, our vocabulary was so vast that every single word had but a single meanng and the vocabulary was sufficient as to allow complete understanding in all things, perhaps we could understand scripture much clearer. It is the duality of vocabulary (often more than even two meanings for a given word) that compermises full understandingin any given instance.

Retrobyter · Nov 15, 2011

Shalom, BibleScribe.

BibleScribe said:
Hi Retrobyter (Roy),

I think I've passed the "English" source, have assessed the observations of Young, Keil, & Kliefoth (as provided by Walvoord in "Daniel, The Key To Prophetic Revelation), have appreciated Newton's observations, and have presented those foundations to you. So once again I will present those observations one at a time, in the order listed:

1. Daniel 9:2 specifies "years".

Where so many fail to perceive the letter and inference of the inconcise Masculine text, shibiym, they ignorantly/stupidly presume that Author intended the concise Feminine text. However, in the onset of this prophetic passage, Daniel specifies seventy "years". So was Daniel misguided if GOD's intent was seventy "sevens", -- or 490 years -- ?

BibleScribe

Yes, Dani'el 9:2 does specify "years"; however, the thing you've neglected to notice is that this chapter is about TWO prophecies. The first was Yirmeyahu's prophecy that there would be 70 years of captivity. It is to THIS prophecy that Dani'el 9:2 refers. The second prophecy is that which Dani'el received from the messenger Gavri'el, namely that there would be 70 SEVENS (of years) after that, beginning with the word to rebuild and restore Yerushalayim. That is ENTIRELY different than the first prophecy with its own timeline.

In the Messiah's love,
Roy

Retrobyter · Nov 15, 2011

Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:
I never intimated that everything Christ said was a spiritual metaphor. But some things He taught definitely ARE given as a parable or symbolic metaphor. And the 'travail with child' idea is one of them. Not only did He give that, but so did Apostle Paul in 2 Cor.11 and 1 Thess.5. And it serves as an immovable 'anchor' to specific warnings in His Word. That particular metaphor is in regards to false worship to another in His place. I feel sorry for those who miss it.

There you go! You’ve done it again! The “’travail with child’ idea” is NOT one of them within this chapter! Look at it again, and don’t let your mind wander to your own take on these verses; let them speak to you directly! (The following is a simple translation from all three of the Gospels that record the Olivet Discourse harmonized in the Greek first and then translated.)

But when ye therefore shall see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has drawn near - The Abomination of the Desolation – the [one which] was spoken about by Dani'el the prophet - standing in [the] holy place where it must not be (let the reader understand); then, let those in Y'hudah (Judah) flee into the mountains. However, let the [one] upon the roof-top not come down into the house nor go inside to take anything out of his house. And [don’t] let the [one] in the field back into the [city]; he is not to return to take his clothes, and let those in [the] middle of it depart out and don’t let those in the countrysides enter into it. For these are the days of vengeance; all things which are written may be fulfilled. But <ooaahee!> to the [one] who is pregnant and to those [who] breast-feed in those days! But pray so that your flight may not be in [the] rainy season (“winter”) nor on Shabbat (the Sabbath); for then those days shall be the huge pressure -no - nor has been its like since [the] beginning of Creation of [the] habitable world which God created until the present - no - nor ever shall be.

Can’t you see how easily the words flow? There’s no need for one to see this as a parable or a metaphor or to search for some “deeper meaning!” It’s simple! When they see the signs of the beginning of the days of vengeance, they are to RUN! And, the women who are with child or those who have to carry a child are going to be at a disadvantage! THAT IS ALL that one needs to see about this phrase! Anything more is READING INTO THE TEXT SOMETHING THAT THE AUTHOR DID NOT INTEND, WAS NOT THERE ORIGINALLY NOR IS NEEDED! DON’T PUT WORDS IN YESHUA`S MOUTH!!! There’s nothing in this text or in that of 2 Cor. 11 or 1 Thes. 5 to link them together! YOU’RE SEEING THINGS THAT AREN’T THERE! That’s called “hallucinating!”

veteran said:
Then you have totally missed Christ's command for us to learn a PARABLE of the fig tree also given in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13. The parables and spiritual metaphors Christ gave are always about literal truths. The reason He gave them was obviously to hide it from those it was 'not given', and for those it was, to make His Message easier to understand.

Now if you want a lesson on this, try interpreting the "Blessed are the barren" metaphor of Isaiah 54:1 in the literal sense. I started a separate thread just on that. You could post your response to it there.

I could, but let’s see how it goes here, first.

When Yeshua` the Messiah gives us a parable, He always announces that it IS a parable, just as He did here in Matthew 24:32, Mark 13:28, and Luke 21:29, and I agree with you about the reason for the parables; Yeshua` said as much in Matt. 13:11-17. I don’t have any problem with that at all. It’s the fairy tales that come out of wanting MORE to be parables and metaphors and teaching allegories that I have a problem with! If Yeshua` didn’t say something was a parable or an allegory, then TAKE THE PASSAGE LITERALLY, FIRST!!!

To my statement, “Secondly, no prophecy has two fulfillments. If a prophecy comes from God, there will be ONE SPECIFIC fulfillment to verify that the prophecy came from God. Prophecies that are nebulous enough to provide more than one fulfillment are false prophecies by false prophets, such as Jeanne Dixon. Prophecies so nebulous provide a buffer - a cushion - to protect the false prophet by multiple possibilities in their fulfillment, increasing their odds of being perceived as a trustworthy prophet.” you said,…

veteran said:
You're definitely wrong on that. Go to Jeremiah 46:1 and start reading, and then note in verse 10 this: "For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that He may avenge Him of His adversaries...". God said that in relation to His destruction upon the historical kingdoms He mentions there. And He applied it to the end time destruction of the Revelation Babylon also. As a matter of fact, Christ's usage of

veteran said:
Babylon once again in His Book of Revelation is proof of how He uses prophetic 'blueprints' in His Word. Even the very same words used in Isaiah 21 about the destruction of historical Babylon are used by Christ again in Rev.18 about the destruction of the end time Babylon system. Why?

Because it's a way to cover a whole lot of information in a very simple way. If our Lord Jesus used Babylon as a symbol in Revelation about the end, even the same words used in Isaiah 21 about historical Babylon's destruction, then what is He telling us by that? It's a big hint for us to go back in the Old Testament Books of the prophets, and STUDY the events about historical Babylon AS A PATTERN BLUEPRINT for the end of this world. And what kind of parallels does that give us?

Well, Nebuchadnezzar setup a golden idol image of himself for all to bow in false worship to at the sound of the psalter. Is there a Revelation parallel? Yes, with the image of the beast the one speaking as a dragon is to setup per the end of Rev.13. There are many other parallels than just that one.

And you don’t think there could have been more than one day in which YHVH wreaked vengeance on His enemies?! YHVH Eloheinu is not static! He is DYNAMIC! He is also not just active; He is often REACTIVE, responding to the insults aimed at Him and His Name! I stand by what I said: “No prophecy has more than one fulfillment!” It may come all at once or in stages, but once a thing predicted is fulfilled, it is NOT fulfilled again … unless a second prophecy is made.

Continuing on, you said…

veteran said:
Secondly, Antiochus Epiphanes in 170 B.C. fulfilled the Daniel 11 prophecy of the "vile person" and "abomination of desolation" almost to a tee, as he conquered Jerusalem and desolated the inside of the temple at Jerusalem with sacrificing swine upon the altar, and then setting up an idol for false worship to Zeus. Yet Christ Jesus foretold of the "abomination of desolation" coming, which was already around 200 years PAST the days of Antiochus!

No. Antiochus IV Epiphanes DID fulfill Dani’el 11:31; however, that is not what Yeshua` was talking about in Matthew 24:15 or Mark 13:14. He was talking about the more GENERAL prophecy of the 70 sevens of years in Dani’el 9:24-27, which speaks about a time BEYOND the existence of Antiochus!

veteran said:
If another temple is built by the Jews in

veteran said:
Jerusalem for the end, as they plan to do, and it is destroyed by Christ's coming, then that will definitely be the fulfilled prophecy Christ gave in Matt.24 and Mark 13 and Luke 21. The Roman's 69 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple left quite a few huge stones standing in Jerusalem, even to today, called 'the western wall'. So if one wants to be a Legalist, then how is it Christ said not one stone will be standing on top of another when those stones of the Western Wall are still standing today?

Ah, but now you're starting to contradict yourself. From the start I mentioned that a 'blueprint' fulfillment will always exclude some parameters given in the whole prophecy. With the not one stone standing on top of another, there's the evidence for the 'blueprint' or shadow still lacking complete fulfillment.

This is rather simple to answer. What you are looking at in the Western Wall is NOT one of the “walls” of the Temple! It is a FOUNDATION of where the Temple used to stand! The Temple itself was burnt and razed to the ground for the gold that flowed into the cracks between the stones of the wall, according to Josephus! Re-read Yeshua`s words carefully:

And Yeshua`answering, said to him, “Do you see these huge buildings?”

But He responding, also said to them, “Do y’all not see all these things? I confirm to you the days in which these things which ye are beholding will come, no, there shall surely not be left here a stone upon a stone that shall not - surely not – be torn down!”

It was all the things they could SEE that would surely be torn down! Nothing is said about the foundation, which at the time they could NOT see!

veteran said:
In Matt.24 with the 'woe to those with child' reference, that would only be missed by someone not studied in that Old Testament metaphor. Christ gave that within the 6th sign involving the setting up of the "abomination of desolation", which is about the setting up of an idol in false worship in

veteran said:
Jerusalem. It's also why Apostle Paul used it in 1 Thess.5 of those in darkness, and why he used it in 2 Cor.11 about his wanting to present us to Christ as a "chaste virgin" espoused to one Husband (a direct reference to the 'blessed are the barren' metaphor in Isaiah 54).

Already answered; see above.

veteran said:
Wanting to leave out the pattern which Antiochus IV served in that is man's attempt to push his own prophetic traditions instead of paying attention to events God has already shown us so we won't get all mixed up. What Antiochus IV did in Jerusalem is a very important component in understanding the "abomination of desolation" prophecy; especially in light of the Romans in 69 A.D. never being able to capture the temple and enter inside it (per Josephus, the temple burned down before the Romans could capture it, as they had intended).

Already answered; see above.

veteran said:
Bible prophecy DOES have concrete fulfillment. That's why so many miss OT prophecies that contain parameters that were NEVER fulfilled historically. Many instead are wrongly taught, "well, all this was fulfilled in Isaiah's days, or Ezekiel's days, etc.", never looking deeply enough to rightly divide what was historical from what is still future. Some claim Zechariah 14 is already fulfilled, simply because it's in the Old Testament Books.

I agree, here. Zech. 14, for instance, is NOT yet fulfilled. One can easily see it in the literal interpretation of the passage in verses 4-5; that has OBVIOUSLY not happened, yet! Har Ha-Zeitiym (the Mount of Olives) has NOT yet been split in half to form a new valley that extends to the east as an escape route!

HOWEVER, one must not make a mistake in the other direction by failing to see that Dani’el 11 WAS fulfilled from the end of Persia and the time of Alexander the Great through the fall of Herod the Great, including some prophecies about Caesar Augustus! In the middle, Antiochus IV Epiphanes fulfilled from verse 25 through 32, and it was HE who desecrated the Temple and abolished the daily sacrifice! And, he and those who followed him WERE resisted by the “people who know their God,” Judas Maccabees (the Hammer) and his brothers!

One absolutely MUST learn from history!

veteran said:
I entered the reference 2 Samuel wrong in previous post. Here's the passage I was speaking of...

2 Sam.

veteran said:
18:24
24 And David sat between the two gates: and the watchman went up to the roof over the gate unto the wall, and lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold a man running alone.
(KJV)

Isa 22:1
22:1 The burden of the valley of vision. What aileth thee now, that thou art wholly gone up to the housetops?
KJV

HOUSE
the roof top:

Here, in national calamities, the people retired to bewail their state (Isa 15:3; Jer 48:38); here in times of danger they watched the foe advancing (Isa 22:1, "thou art wholly gone up to the housetops"), or the bearer of tidings approaching (2 Sam 18:24,33).
(from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright ©1998 by Biblesoft)

Mark 13:15
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
(KJV)

That idea of not going back down into the house is as a warning to get ready to flee. But the reason for being upon the "housetop" in that time is about being a 'watchman'.

And it was in relation to this as a watchman...

Matt 24:42-44
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
(KJV)

Sorry, but that is just not true, and you’re mixing portions of Matt. 24 that have nothing to do with each other! Matt. 24:

“But when ye therefore shall see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has drawn near - The Abomination of the Desolation – the [one which] was spoken about by Dani'el the prophet - standing in [the] holy place where it must not be (let the reader understand), then let those in Y'hudah (Judah) flee into the mountains. However, let the [one] upon the roof-top not come down into the house nor go inside to take anything out of his house. And [don’t] let the [one] in the field back into the [city]; he is not to return to take his clothes, and let those in [the] middle of it depart out and don’t let those in the countrysides enter into it. For these are the days of vengeance; all things which are written may be fulfilled. But <ooaahee!> to the [one] who is pregnant and to those [who] breast-feed in those days! But pray so that your flight may not be in [the] rainy season (“winter”) nor on Shabbat (the Sabbath); for then those days shall be the huge pressure -no - nor has been its like since [the] beginning of Creation of [the] habitable world which God created until the present - no - nor ever shall be, and if [the] Master had not shortened those days, there would not have been any flesh rescued.”

The above passage has little to do with the following passage except to say that they are in the same chapters of Matthew, Mark and Luke.

“However, watch yourselves so at no time your hearts be weighed down with hangovers and intoxication and distractions of this life, and that the day stand upon you unexpectedly. For it shall come as a trap upon all those who dwell on [the] surface of the whole earth. Therefore, stay awake! Pray at every occasion that ye may be counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and to stand before the Son of Man. Watch out, stay awake, and wish forward to God! For ye don’t know when the time will be!

As a man journeying abroad who left his household and gave to his slaves the authority and to each one his [own] assignment and commanded the front door guard to stay awake guarding, therefore then YE guard for ye don’t know when - what time – your master, the master of the household, will come, at dusk or midnight or cockcrowing or at dawn! Otherwise, he will come suddenly to find you sleeping! But that which I say to you, I say to all: Stay awake!

But know this: that if the householder had known in what watch the burglar would come, he would have watched better and would better not have allowed [him] to break into his house. Through that [analogy], ye be ready, too; the Son of the Man shall come at such a time that ye won’t imagine.”

DON’T READ INTO THE SCRIPTURES WHAT ISN’T THERE!!!

In the Messiah’s love,
Roy

us2are1 · Nov 15, 2011

The abomination of desolation is perpetrated by those who say they belong to Christ now. Rather than Living by true faith, in God alone, they will eat each other and the stranger. They will hunt people and eat the flesh of man for food and drink "in Jesus name".

BibleScribe · Nov 15, 2011

Retrobyter said:
...
Yes, Dani'el 9:2 does specify "years"; however, the thing you've neglected to notice is that this chapter is about TWO prophecies. The first was Yirmeyahu's prophecy that there would be 70 years of captivity. It is to THIS prophecy that Dani'el 9:2 refers. The second prophecy is that which Dani'el received from the messenger Gavri'el, namely that there would be 70 SEVENS (of years) after that, beginning with the word to rebuild and restore Yerushalayim. That is ENTIRELY different than the first prophecy with its own timeline.
..

Hi Retrobyter, (Roy),

Please allow me to reference my Point #6 as follows:

6. The "weeks"/"week" are the inconcise Masculine gender text, which are specifically NOT 490 years.

Toward this, Young, Keil, and Kliefoth all agree that the text is the inconcise Masculine gender. However, the common interpretation presumes the concise Feminine gender. As such, Scripture would demand that these seventy ~sevens~ could be any duration, EXCEPT 490 years.

And where this ~riddle~ might evade the casual student, I would propose that both the "years" and "weeks" are the fulfillment. So to resolve this dichotomy, I would suggest that the solution is found in my Point #2.

2. Daniel 9:2 does not use the simple shama to perceive the prophecy of Jeremiah as though reading that book, but rather the Soloman biyn to perceive the prophecy in the BOOKS.

As such, please find a ~book~ which provides the "going forth of the Word", which conforms to my Point #3, (per Young):

3. Daniel 9:25 "going forth of the word" does NOT have the inference of any edict from man, but rather and edict directly from GOD.

BibleScribe

veteran · Nov 16, 2011

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, veteran.

There you go! You’ve done it again! The “’travail with child’ idea” is NOT one of them within this chapter! Look at it again, and don’t let your mind wander to your own take on these verses; let them speak to you directly! (The following is a simple translation from all three of the Gospels that record the Olivet Discourse harmonized in the Greek first and then translated.)

There is a connection in the chapter to it, but more is found in the Luke 21 version...

Luke 21:22-23
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
(KJV)

The "days of vengeance" is a marker for the time of God's wrath, which is what ends the tribulation by Satan's hosts. That time of wrath is about God's punishment upon the wicked. It's the same word Paul used in 1 Thess.5:9. It's the Isaiah 61:2 day of vengeance with Christ's second coming.

Luke 23:29-30
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck."
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, "Fall on us"; and to the hills, "Cover us."
(KJV)

Exactly WHO is going to be saying for the mountains to "Fall on us", and to the hills, "Cover us"? It's the wicked that will say that when Christ appears to dish out His wrath upon the wicked, and in shame they will seek to hide from Him and His wrath...

Rev 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(KJV)

So before you go throwing out that 'mind wandering' stuff, you might want to do a bit more Bible study on that woe to those with child metaphor from both the Old and New Testament Books.

But when ye therefore shall see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has drawn near - The Abomination of the Desolation – the [one which] was spoken about by Dani'el the prophet - standing in [the] holy place where it must not be (let the reader understand); then, let those in Y'hudah (Judah) flee into the mountains. However, let the [one] upon the roof-top not come down into the house nor go inside to take anything out of his house. And [don’t] let the [one] in the field back into the [city]; he is not to return to take his clothes, and let those in [the] middle of it depart out and don’t let those in the countrysides enter into it. For these are the days of vengeance; all things which are written may be fulfilled. But <ooaahee!> to the [one] who is pregnant and to those [who] breast-feed in those days! But pray so that your flight may not be in [the] rainy season (“winter”) nor on Shabbat (the Sabbath); for then those days shall be the huge pressure -no - nor has been its like since [the] beginning of Creation of [the] habitable world which God created until the present - no - nor ever shall be.

Can’t you see how easily the words flow? There’s no need for one to see this as a parable or a metaphor or to search for some “deeper meaning!” It’s simple! When they see the signs of the beginning of the days of vengeance, they are to RUN! And, the women who are with child or those who have to carry a child are going to be at a disadvantage! THAT IS ALL that one needs to see about this phrase! Anything more is READING INTO THE TEXT SOMETHING THAT THE AUTHOR DID NOT INTEND, WAS NOT THERE ORIGINALLY NOR IS NEEDED! DON’T PUT WORDS IN YESHUA`S MOUTH!!! There’s nothing in this text or in that of 2 Cor. 11 or 1 Thes. 5 to link them together! YOU’RE SEEING THINGS THAT AREN’T THERE! That’s called “hallucinating!”

Once again, the "days of vengeance" in Luke 21 is about the time of God's coming wrath upon this world at Christ's second coming, which has NOT happened yet today.

And the "abomination of desolation" event is about the setting up of false idol worship in Jerusalem. It's main event involves false idol worship, not a desolation by a military army, but a religious desolation of a temple in Jerusalem. That's why Antiochus IV in 170 B.C. served as a past pattern for it. That is per the prophetic event recorded in the Book of Daniel, per history with Antiochus IV, and per Christ's warning involving the Matt.24:23-26 verses about a false Christ coming to do great wonders and miracles, and per Paul in 2 Thess.2 with that false one coming to sit in the temple to show himself as God.

If there exists other Bible Scripture about those Matt.24 events, and there does, then those other Scriptures certainly ARE part of that chapter's context. The traditions of men often try to use the false ploy of denying that other relevant Scripture exists in context. Men's doctrines of Preterism especially practices that false ploy with Christ's Olivet Discourse of Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. But if that's still closed off to your understanding, then I guess that's just how it is.

When Yeshua` the Messiah gives us a parable, He always announces that it IS a parable, just as He did here in Matthew 24:32, Mark 13:28, and Luke 21:29, and I agree with you about the reason for the parables; Yeshua` said as much in Matt. 13:11-17. I don’t have any problem with that at all. It’s the fairy tales that come out of wanting MORE to be parables and metaphors and teaching allegories that I have a problem with! If Yeshua` didn’t say something was a parable or an allegory, then TAKE THE PASSAGE LITERALLY, FIRST!!!

I can well grasp how one could assign that 'fairy tale' moniker to anything they don't yet understand. Within this, that's how the 'with child' metaphor appears to be to you, because Christ gave many metaphors and symbols which He did not specifically say they were a parable. He really did not need to, since He had already given them first back in the Old Testament Books of the prophets. And it's easy to know whether or not someone has studied them back in the OT.

To my statement, “Secondly, no prophecy has two fulfillments. If a prophecy comes from God, there will be ONE SPECIFIC fulfillment to verify that the prophecy came from God. Prophecies that are nebulous enough to provide more than one fulfillment are false prophecies by false prophets, such as Jeanne Dixon. Prophecies so nebulous provide a buffer - a cushion - to protect the false prophet by multiple possibilities in their fulfillment, increasing their odds of being perceived as a trustworthy prophet.

Well, then good luck on trying to explain why the "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" phrase from Isaiah 21:9 is repeated once again in Rev.14:8 and Rev.18:2 for the very end. Likewise with the 'day of The LORD' phrase in Jer.46 applied upon historical OT nations but also later by Apostles Paul and Peter in the New Testament for the day of Christ's second coming. In light of that, you're Jeane Dixon type comparisons are a complete wandering off the subject.

And you don’t think there could have been more than one day in which YHVH wreaked vengeance on His enemies?! YHVH Eloheinu is not static! He is DYNAMIC! He is also not just active; He is often REACTIVE, responding to the insults aimed at Him and His Name! I stand by what I said: “No prophecy has more than one fulfillment!” It may come all at once or in stages, but once a thing predicted is fulfilled, it is NOT fulfilled again … unless a second prophecy is made.

So, now YOU ARE admitting Bible usage of the 'days of vengeance' phrase to history and for the very end? How is that NOT about multiple prophetic fulfillments???

The matter is very simple. Not ALL events God gave through His OT prophets were fulfilled in the days of those prophets. The prophecies contain historical parameters, and still yet future parameters that are yet to occur. Anyone can read in Isaiah 65 about the 'new heavens and a new earth' events to easily know that. But someone that is still blinded to that being how those prophecies were written down... well...I certainly won't be the one to help them understand it if God has closed their eyes to it.

Yet it's also easy to see how the Bible grammar even requires fulfilled prophetic parameters vs. yet unfulfilled parameters to be addressed separately. If that were not so, then there would not exist so many Bible scholars among God's people throughout history that pointed their differences out. So you're not just arguing with me about this, but with many, many Bible scholars of history. And Preterism is not going to change all that Bible evidence.

No. Antiochus IV Epiphanes DID fulfill Dani’el 11:31; however, that is not what Yeshua` was talking about in Matthew 24:15 or Mark 13:14. He was talking about the more GENERAL prophecy of the 70 sevens of years in Dani’el 9:24-27, which speaks about a time BEYOND the existence of Antiochus!

Let's see. The prophetic order for the abomination of desolation was given to Daniel prior to the coming of Antiochus IV in 170 B.C. Antiochus fit the prophetic pattern almost perfectly between 170 - 165 B.C. Then around 200 years later, Christ warns about the abomination of desolation from Daniel. And just to make sure we would understand He was indeed talking about the specific idea of false idol worship in Jerusalem, He gave the false Christs (pseudo Christ per the Greek) warning with it in Matt.24:23-26, which Paul repeats in 2 Thess.2:3-4. That can mean only one thing for Antiochus IV. He served as a previous pattern for the prophecy with not all the parameters completed. It certainly does NOT mean to go off 'wandering' with general ideas totally outside the prophecy, like what you're trying to do by excluding how Antiochus served as a previous pattern for the "abomination of desolation" event. Thus the very mind wandering thing you accuse me of, we find you yourself doing.

This is rather simple to answer. What you are looking at in the Western Wall is NOT one of the “walls” of the Temple! It is a FOUNDATION of where the Temple used to stand! The Temple itself was burnt and razed to the ground for the gold that flowed into the cracks between the stones of the wall, according to Josephus! Re-read Yeshua`s words carefully:

Doesn't matter whether or not if it was a specific structure connected with the 2nd temple itself. Christ and His disciples were not pointing to just one building upon the Temple Mount area. But don't take my word for that, for Christ already foretold just how much of Jerusalem the destruction would cover...

Luke 19:41-44
41 And when He was come near, He beheld the city, and wept over it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
(KJV)

How is it then, those great stones of today's standing Western Wall were missed? If you can be a Literalist with other Scripture, why not that one involving not "one stone upon another"?

And Yeshua`answering, said to him, “Do you see these huge buildings?"

But He responding, also said to them, “Do y’all not see all these things? I confirm to you the days in which these things which ye are beholding will come, no, there shall surely not be left here a stone upon a stone that shall not - surely not – be torn down!”

It was all the things they could SEE that would surely be torn down! Nothing is said about the foundation, which at the time they could NOT see!

You're gonna' have a hard time with the Luke 19:44 prophecy that includes all the stones in Jerusalem being laid down, including those of the Western Wall that still stand today, for that defined just how much of a destruction Christ was also talking about to His disciples while upon the Mount of Olives in Matt.24 and Mark 13.

I agree, here. Zech. 14, for instance, is NOT yet fulfilled. One can easily see it in the literal interpretation of the passage in verses 4-5; that has OBVIOUSLY not happened, yet! Har Ha-Zeitiym (the Mount of Olives) has NOT yet been split in half to form a new valley that extends to the east as an escape route!

Yet those on the FULL PRETERIST doctrine of men oft times do treat that chapter as past history.

HOWEVER, one must not make a mistake in the other direction by failing to see that Dani’el 11 WAS fulfilled from the end of Persia and the time of Alexander the Great through the fall of Herod the Great, including some prophecies about Caesar Augustus! In the middle, Antiochus IV Epiphanes fulfilled from verse 25 through 32, and it was HE who desecrated the Temple and abolished the daily sacrifice! And, he and those who followed him WERE resisted by the “people who know their God,” Judas Maccabees (the Hammer) and his brothers!

One absolutely MUST learn from history!

It has not all been fulfilled yet today. And when the orthodox unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem build another temple in our days and start up the Old Covenant style worship again as they're planning, then you'll see that.

Sorry, but that is just not true, and you’re mixing portions of Matt. 24 that have nothing to do with each other! Matt. 24:

“But when ye therefore shall see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has drawn near - The Abomination of the Desolation – the [one which] was spoken about by Dani'el the prophet - standing in [the] holy place where it must not be (let the reader understand), then let those in Y'hudah (Judah) flee into the mountains. However, let the [one] upon the roof-top not come down into the house nor go inside to take anything out of his house. And [don’t] let the [one] in the field back into the [city]; he is not to return to take his clothes, and let those in [the] middle of it depart out and don’t let those in the countrysides enter into it. For these are the days of vengeance; all things which are written may be fulfilled. But <ooaahee!> to the [one] who is pregnant and to those [who] breast-feed in those days! But pray so that your flight may not be in [the] rainy season (“winter”) nor on Shabbat (the Sabbath); for then those days shall be the huge pressure -no - nor has been its like since [the] beginning of Creation of [the] habitable world which God created until the present - no - nor ever shall be, and if [the] Master had not shortened those days, there would not have been any flesh rescued.”

The above passage has little to do with the following passage except to say that they are in the same chapters of Matthew, Mark and Luke.

“However, watch yourselves so at no time your hearts be weighed down with hangovers and intoxication and distractions of this life, and that the day stand upon you unexpectedly. For it shall come as a trap upon all those who dwell on [the] surface of the whole earth. Therefore, stay awake! Pray at every occasion that ye may be counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and to stand before the Son of Man. Watch out, stay awake, and wish forward to God! For ye don’t know when the time will be!

As a man journeying abroad who left his household and gave to his slaves the authority and to each one his [own] assignment and commanded the front door guard to stay awake guarding, therefore then YE guard for ye don’t know when - what time – your master, the master of the household, will come, at dusk or midnight or cockcrowing or at dawn! Otherwise, he will come suddenly to find you sleeping! But that which I say to you, I say to all: Stay awake!

But know this: that if the householder had known in what watch the burglar would come, he would have watched better and would better not have allowed [him] to break into his house. Through that [analogy], ye be ready, too; the Son of the Man shall come at such a time that ye won’t imagine.”

DON’T READ INTO THE SCRIPTURES WHAT ISN’T THERE!!!

All the events Christ gave in His Olivet Discourse are directly related to events of the very end of this present world leading up to His return. They are the seven signs He gave in His Book of Revelation, which He covered in the form of Seals, Trumpets, and Vials. That's why the final sign He gave was about the event of His coming and the gathering of His saints to Him on the last day of this world. It's why He ended the Matt.24 chapter with a warning to be on 'watch'.

tgwprophet · Nov 16, 2011

Rev 13:5 discusses the time of Satan's authority, not the time of the anti-christ that establishes the covenant. Satan should be the one that confirms the covenant already established by the anti-christ some 3 1/2 years plus 30 days earlier.

us2are1 · Nov 17, 2011

The covenant was established and confirmed by Christ and those who followed Him for 965 days during His ministry as the son of man.
It will be finished by the Lords two witnesses who will prophecy for 1260 days. From the time they are resurrected to the coming of Christ will be 75 days. The Lord will return in a flash of Lightning and in that flash His saints will be resurrected back to life from death and come with Him. Those who are end time saints will go up in that flash and be coming with them also.

Warrior · May 13, 2012

You didn't make a choice for " Within the next few months "

veteran · May 13, 2012

terry said:
Rev 13:5 discusses the time of Satan's authority, not the time of the anti-christ that establishes the covenant. Satan should be the one that confirms the covenant already established by the anti-christ some 3 1/2 years plus 30 days earlier.

One has to divide the timelines in those early verses of Rev.13 carefully...

Rev 13:4-9
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Those verses are about the "another beast" described later starting at Rev.13:11, the one that speaks as a dragon. That truly will be... Satan himself the dragon. That's who the "another beast" really will be. More is described about him in Rev.17 pointing to him as a 'king', i.e., a beast king. The first beast is his kingdom of Rev.13:1, and that's what he's coming to heal. In Rev.12:3-4 we were shown early that Satan there as the "red dragon" setup a similar beast kingdom of ten horns when he first drew a third of the angels (stars) to earth with him. We were to note later in that Rev.12 chapter that red dragon is simply another title for Satan himself. And then in the latter part of Rev.12, the "dragon" and "serpent" titles are used interchangeably once he's cast down to this earth with his angels, and goes to persecute the symbolic 'woman'. So what more need our Lord Jesus do to get us to understand that He is pointing literally to Satan as the false one coming to earth in the last days?

Jon-Marc · May 20, 2012

I choose the answer you didn't give, "No one can know when it will happen."

veteran · May 20, 2012

Jon-Marc said:
I choose the answer you didn't give, "No one can know when it will happen."

We actually can know when the great tribulation period begins, by watching for the signs our Lord Jesus first gave in His Olivet Discourse. Revelation is an expose by our Lord Jesus of those signs for the end of days.

They involve (not in specific order):

1 - coming of a false messiah (pseudochristos in Matt.24:24)
2 - idol setup in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem ("abomination of desolation' prophecy)
3 - great wonders, signs, and miracles done by the coming false messiah, so powerful in deception that if possible, it would deceive even Christ's elect
4 - wars and rumours of wars, and then a time of world peace that has never been
5 - many of Christ's elect delivered up to councils and synagogues to give a Testimony for Christ by The Holy Spirit
6 - time of trouble upon Christ's saints to a level that has never been before in the history of this earth, nor ever will be again
7 - famines, both economic and spiritual, looking everywhere to hear God's Word and not finding it
8 - one world beast kingdom setup over all... nations and peoples on earth, i.e., "a one-world government"
9 - a mark instituted by false messiah for buying and selling only for those who accept him and worship him
10 - God's two witnesses appear in Jerusalem, and prophesy for 1260 days, then Satan kills them, leaving their dead bodies laying in the street of Jerusalem, then after 3.5 days, they arise.

JLB · May 20, 2012

Jon-Marc said:
I choose the answer you didn't give, "No one can know when it will happen."

Why do you say that - because the Day of The Lord comes as a thief in the night?

Retrobyter · May 21, 2012

Shalom, veteran.

To my statement, "The “’travail with child’ idea” is NOT one of them within this chapter!" you wrote...

veteran said:
There is a connection in the chapter to it, but more is found in the Luke 21 version...

Luke 21:22-23
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23

veteran said:
But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
(KJV)

The "days of vengeance" is a marker for the time of God's wrath, which is what ends the tribulation by Satan's hosts. That time of wrath is about God's punishment upon the wicked. It's the same word Paul used in 1 Thess.5:9. It's the Isaiah 61:2 day of vengeance with Christ's second coming.

Luke 23:29-30
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck."
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, "Fall on us"; and to the hills, "Cover us."
(KJV)

You're reaching to equate these two passages! Look at the WHOLE context for placement in Yeshua`s lifetime:

Luke 23:27-32

27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

32 And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.
KJV

This is not going to happen in the future! It happened in the PAST! It happened in 66-70 A.D., 40 years from when Yeshua` died on the Roman execution stake!

veteran said:
Exactly WHO is going to be saying for the mountains to "Fall on us", and to the hills, "Cover us"? It's the wicked that will say that when Christ appears to dish out His wrath upon the wicked, and in shame they will seek to hide from Him and His wrath...

Rev 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(KJV)

And, can't two different groups at two different times in history feel the same way and cry out the same words? Verse 15 talks about males (although possibly talking about both genders), but Luke 23:30 talks about females! As I said, you are REACHING to equate the two, and there is NOTHING in Scripture that forces the equating!

veteran said:
So before you go throwing out that 'mind wandering' stuff, you might want to do a bit more Bible study on that woe to those with child metaphor from both the Old and New Testament Books.

No, that's okay. I don't need to go hunting up some fictitious "child metaphor" garbage to further complicate matters. I will stick with the simple, literal interpretation of Scripture and let the Scriptures speak for themselves.

veteran said:
Once again, the "days of vengeance" in Luke 21 is about the time of God's coming wrath upon this world at Christ's second coming, which has NOT happened yet today.

Again, STICK TO THE CONTEXT!!!

Luke 21:20-24

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
KJV

What "land?" The Land of Isra'el!

What "people?" THIS people! The people of Isra'el living in and around Jerusalem!

Where were those living in Y'hudah told to flee? To the mountains of Isra'el!

Who today uses swords in battle? The ROMANS used swords!

When did Yerushalayim start being trampled by the Goyim? This all occurred in the FIRST CENTURY A.D.!

veteran said:
And the "abomination of desolation" event is about the setting up of false idol worship in

veteran said:
Jerusalem. It's main event involves false idol worship, not a desolation by a military army, but a religious desolation of a temple in Jerusalem. That's why Antiochus IV in 170 B.C. served as a past pattern for it. That is per the prophetic event recorded in the Book of Daniel, per history with Antiochus IV, and per Christ's warning involving the Matt.24:23-26 verses about a false Christ coming to do great wonders and miracles, and per Paul in 2 Thess.2 with that false one coming to sit in the temple to show himself as God.

ONLY in your limited way of looking at things! The "abomination of desolation" mentioned in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is equated by Luke to Luke 21:20 above! You are so hell-bent on believing in a "false idol worship" by an "antichrist" that you can't see it any other way! Antiochus IV Epiphanes was not a "past pattern" for the antichrist! He WAS the one who set up the "abomination of desolation" in Dani'el 8 and Dani'el 11! Yeshua`s words translated as "abomination of desolation" in Matt. 24 and Mark 13 are not an allusion to those WORDS in Dani'el's book; they are an allusion to that SUBJECT found in Dani'el's book! And, the future of that SUBJECT is expounded upon within the seventy sevens of Dani'el 9:24-27!

veteran said:
If there exists other Bible Scripture about those Matt.24 events, and there does, then those other Scriptures certainly ARE part of that chapter's context.

You obviously do NOT know what a “context” is! Here’s the dictionary definition:

context (kon’tekst), n. 1. the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specified word or passage and can influence its meaning or effect. 2. the set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc. [1375-1425; < L contextus a joining together, scheme, structure < contex(ere) to join by weaving < con- CON- + texere to plait, weave cf. TEXT]

veteran said:
The traditions of men often try to use the false ploy of denying that other relevant Scripture exists in context. Men's doctrines of Preterism especially practices that false ploy with Christ's Olivet Discourse of Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. But if that's still closed off to your understanding, then I guess that's just how it is.

Brother! Is that how you would argue with a traffic officer?

“Oh, I didn’t run a red light; its clearly more orange than red! The traditions of men often try to use the false ploy of denying that other relevant traffic rules (such as those for orange signs) exist in context. Men’s doctrines of ‘red-light-ism’ especially practices that false ploy with the Stopping-at-a-red-light rules! But, if that’s still closed off to your understanding, then I guess that’s just how it is.”

How far do you think you would get with THAT defense?! “License and registration, please!”

Yeshua` spoke the “Olivet Discourse” to warn His students (and their families and friends) of the impending doom JUST 40 YEARS AWAY, NOT some impending doom 2000 years down the road! He did allow His words to follow His sight down through time at several points during the discourse, but He always brought the subject back to the immediate need, the welfare of His students! Whenever He used the words that were eventually translated to “ye” and “you” and “your” and “yours” within these three chapters (four if you count Matt. 25), He was speaking DIRECTLY to His students, not to future generations!

Now, to my statement, “When Yeshua` the Messiah gives us a parable, He always announces that it IS a parable, just as He did here in Matthew 24:32, Mark 13:28, and Luke 21:29, and I agree with you about the reason for the parables; Yeshua` said as much in Matt. 13:11-17. I don’t have any problem with that at all. It’s the fairy tales that come out of wanting MORE to be parables and metaphors and teaching allegories that I have a problem with! If Yeshua` didn’t say something was a parable or an allegory, then TAKE THE PASSAGE LITERALLY, FIRST!!!”
you said,

veteran said:
I can well grasp how one could assign that 'fairy tale' moniker to anything they don't yet understand. Within this, that's how the 'with child' metaphor appears to be to you, because Christ gave many metaphors and symbols which He did not specifically say they were a parable. He really did not need to, since He had already given them first back in the Old Testament Books of the prophets. And it's easy to know whether or not someone has studied them back in the OT.

Look, if Yeshua` didn’t SAY that He using a “‘with child’ metaphor,” then how do you know He was using a METAPHOR?!

Here’s what http://voices.yahoo.com/how-recognize-metaphors-similes-5580247.html says about recognizing a “metaphor”:

Figurative language is part of what makes writing prose and poetry art. There is more to great literature than simply telling the story or laying down lines in poetry; the way it is told gives good writing more depth. Analyzing stories and poetry for that figurative language helps readers understand the author's purpose more clearly.

Two elements of figurative language are the metaphor and the simile. These two ideas are typically lumped together when discussing figurative language because they are very similar. Both are comparisons, showing how two or more things are similar. The only difference is in the language used-similes use the words "like" or "as" while metaphors do not. For instance, "she is as grumpy as a bear in the mornings" would be a simile while "she is a bear in the mornings" is a metaphor.

This difference helps the reader locate similes easily while metaphors may be more difficult. The purpose in differentiating the terms is their impact. Consider the bear simile used above. It is very specific in the relationship between the girl and the bear: the grumpiness. The metaphor, however, leaves more possibilities. Because most of us think of bears as frightening, dangerous creatures, we would make the assumption that the metaphor means we should leave the girl alone in the mornings. But it might not be that simple. Perhaps there is something in the slowness of movement, the lumbering gait, and the months of hibernation that instead (or in addition) imply fatigue. Or put the bear in the circus. Here we tend to create a different emotional response to the bear since it is amusing, perhaps seems talented and smart. In this context, the metaphor might mean that she juggles plates of bacon and eggs even though she seems out of place in the kitchen.

So how do you know what meaning to attach to a simile or metaphor if there is more than one possibility? You have to look at the rest of the writing and take the other elements of figurative writing into consideration. What do the other similes and metaphors indicate? Are there a lot of circus references? Does the paper consistently talk about her anger?

The “rest of the writing” and the “other elements of figurative writing” within that writing is called its CONTEXT! You don’t leave the writing to find out its meaning; YOU STAY WITHIN THAT BOOK, WITHIN THAT CHAPTER to find the answer to the question, “What does the metaphor mean?”!

If what Yeshua` wrote can be understood without resorting to a metaphor, then DON’T RESORT TO A METAPHOR! When Yeshua` told His students, “Woe to those who are with children in that day,” He wasn’t using a metaphor! He was flat out telling His students that pregnant women would be mourned! The Greek word translated “woe” is “ouai,” pronounced “oo-ah-ee!” It was a cry of grief, an onomatopoeia, sounding similar to our word “WHY?!” And, why would they be mourned? Because they were going to be pursued by a ruthless, maddened, Roman army who would not take pity on a pregnant woman or a woman with a baby! And, if they fell behind, they would be caught and mutilated!

veteran said:
Well, then good luck on trying to explain why the "

veteran said:
Babylon is fallen, is fallen" phrase from Isaiah 21:9 is repeated once again in Rev.14:8 and Rev.18:2 for the very end. Likewise with the 'day of The LORD' phrase in Jer.46 applied upon historical OT nations but also later by Apostles Paul and Peter in the New Testament for the day of Christ's second coming. In light of that, you're Jeane Dixon type comparisons are a complete wandering off the subject.

Sorry, but if Babylon rises again, or if another place is identified as “Babylon,” then the old Babylon could have fallen and the later, newer Babylon could likewise fall!

Likewise, the Day of the LORD, a phrase that means that the LORD acts on that day, can exist multiple times in history! Just because two different days may be called “day(s) of the LORD,” days when the LORD rises up to affect change, it doesn’t mean that both have to occur at the same time! YHVH (the LORD) is not a static God! He is DYNAMIC!

And, my reference to Jeanne Dixon was not irrelevant or a “complete wandering off the subject.” Her predictions were about 6% accurate! Dr. Norman Geisler said on Ankerberg.com said,

What if we apply these tests to one of the many self-proclaimed prophets of our time, Jeane Dixon? First, let’s check her track record. Even her biographer, Ruth Montgomery, admits that Dixon has made false prophecies. “She predicted that Red China would plunge the world into war over Quemoy and Matsu in October of 1958; she thought that labor leader Walter Reuther would actively seek the presidency in 1964.” On October 19, 1968 she assured us that Jacqueline Kennedy was not considering marriage; the next day, Mrs. Kennedy wed Aristotle Onassis. She also said that World War III would begin in 1954, the Vietnam War would end in 1966, and Castro would be banished from Cuba in 1970. A study of prophecies made by psychics in 1975 and observed until 1981, including Mrs. Dixon’s projections, showed that of the seventy-two predictions, only six were fulfilled in any way. Two of these were vague and two others were hardly surprising—the U.S. and Russia would remain leading powers and there would be no world wars. With only a 6 percent accuracy rate, how serious can we take these claims?

Her most noted prophecy was to predict the death of her friend John F. Kennedy. We must face the fact that some psychic prophecies come true. Sometimes this is because they are so general that they can be interpreted to fit many situations. Others simply offer common sense, like a horoscope that says, “Careful investments will secure your financial future.” But some are specific and accurate, and these can be accounted for in three ways: the prophet is of God (that means 100 percent accuracy though), has demonic influence, or they just made a lucky guess. Just exactly what is the source of Jeane Dixon’s power?

An accuracy rate around 6 percent could easily be explained by chance and general knowledge of circumstances. But there may be more to it. Montgomery also tells us that Dixon uses a crystal ball, astrology, and telepathy, and that her gift of prophecy was given to her by a gypsy fortune-teller when she was a little girl. Even her prophecy of Kennedy’s death is vague, wrong in some aspects (she said that the 1960 election would be dominated by labor, which it was not), and contradicted by her other prophecies—she also said Nixon was supposed to win!

But the Bible allows no room for such things. All forms of divination are prohibited. More important, no error is allowed for a prophet of God. Deuteronomy 18:22 says that he must be 100 percent accurate.

When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come

about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet

has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

That last phrase, being interpreted, means that it is all right to stone him. If God hasspoken, it will come about. There is no need for a second chance.

And, that’s all I was trying to say. A prophet in the Tanakh (the OT) could NOT BE WRONG on any prophecy! They ALL had to be fulfilled accurately!

veteran said:
So, now YOU ARE admitting Bible usage of the 'days of vengeance' phrase to history and for the very end? How is that NOT about multiple prophetic fulfillments???

The matter is very simple. Not ALL events God gave through His OT prophets were fulfilled in the days of those prophets. The prophecies contain historical parameters, and still yet future parameters that are yet to occur. Anyone can read in Isaiah 65 about the 'new heavens and a new earth' events to easily know that. But someone that is still blinded to that being how those prophecies were written down... well...I certainly won't be the one to help them understand it if God has closed their eyes to it.

Yet it's also easy to see how the Bible grammar even requires fulfilled prophetic parameters vs. yet unfulfilled parameters to be addressed separately. If that were not so, then there would not exist so many Bible scholars among God's people throughout history that pointed their differences out. So you're not just arguing with me about this, but with many, many Bible scholars of history. And Preterism is not going to change all that Bible evidence.

But, you have made the error in assuming that a particular prophecy (namely Dani’el 11) could be fulfilled more than once! There IS such a thing as a Law of Double Reference, but that is NOT how it applies! Here’s what Douglas Connelly said about Double Reference on p. 33 of Bible Prophecy for Blockheads:

Techno-Speak:
Double Reference

The term double reference is used to describe a Scripture passage in which part of the passage is fulfilled at one time while another part is fulfilled at a later time. Zechariah 9:9-10 is a clear example. Verse 9 was fulfilled during Jesus’ earthly ministry; verse 10 will be fulfilled at Jesus’ second coming.

It’s not …

Fulfillment A <-- Prophecy --> Fulfillment B.

But rather, it’s…

Prophecy, part A --> Fulfillment A

Prophecy, part B --> Fulfillment B.

The first way is confusion; the second way is consistency.

veteran said:
Let's see. The prophetic order for the abomination of desolation was given to Daniel prior to the coming of Antiochus IV in 170 B.C. Antiochus fit the prophetic pattern almost perfectly between 170 - 165 B.C. Then around 200 years later, Christ warns about the abomination of desolation from Daniel. And just to make sure we would understand He was indeed talking about the specific idea of false idol worship in Jerusalem, He gave the false Christs (pseudo Christ per the Greek) warning with it in Matt.24:23-26, which Paul repeats in 2 Thess.2:3-4. That can mean only one thing for Antiochus IV. He served as a previous pattern for the prophecy with not all the parameters completed. It certainly does NOT mean to go off 'wandering' with general ideas totally outside the prophecy, like what you're trying to do by excluding how Antiochus served as a previous pattern for the "abomination of desolation" event. Thus the very mind wandering thing you accuse me of, we find you yourself doing.

Well, that’ just bogus. Antiochus IV Epiphanes fit the prophecy (particularly of Dani’el 11) perfectly between 170-165 B.C. and yet you want people to believe that the prophecy must also be fulfilled for the antichrist of the future! That’s just confusion, and you know where that comes from, right?

veteran said:
Doesn't matter whether or not if it was a specific structure connected with the 2nd temple itself. Christ and His disciples were not pointing to just one building upon the

veteran said:
Temple Mount area. But don't take my word for that, for Christ already foretold just how much of Jerusalem the destruction would cover...

Luke 19:41-44
41 And when He was come near, He beheld the city, and wept over it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
(KJV)

How is it then, those great stones of today's standing Western Wall were missed? If you can be a Literalist with other Scripture, why not that one involving not "one stone upon another"?

You're gonna' have a hard time with the Luke 19:44 prophecy that includes all the stones in Jerusalem being laid down, including those of the Western Wall that still stand today, for that defined just how much of a destruction Christ was also talking about to His disciples while upon the Mount of Olives in Matt.24 and Mark 13.

Shows how much YOU know! The Western Wall, once called the “Wailing Wall,” is NOT the stones of the Temple or of the wall of the Old City or of any of its structures! They are the stones of the RETENTION WALL shoring up the ground of the terraced level upon which the Temple once sat! They are FOUNDATION stones, below the ground level where the Temple was, and they were NEVER connected directly to the Temple! Indeed, much of those stones were added during the Ottoman Empire to shore up the level for the Dome of the Rock!

You really need to do the research first before “open mouth; insert foot.”

veteran said:
Yet those on the FULL PRETERIST doctrine of men oft times do treat that chapter as past history.

It has not all been fulfilled yet today. And when the orthodox unbelieving Jews in

veteran said:
Jerusalem build another temple in our days and start up the Old Covenant style worship again as they're planning, then you'll see that.

As you should know by now, I’m not a “FULL PRETERIST.” At worst, I am a “partial preterist” and that with qualifications, for I do NOT follow the general consensus for “partial preterism.”

I KNOW that the Olivet Discourse has not all been fulfilled today! However, there are some significant passages within that Discourse that HAVE BEEN FULFILLED! Namely, Jerusalem WAS surrounded by “armies,” the “armies” (stratopedoon, or battalions of troops) of ROME!

veteran said:
All the events Christ gave in His Olivet Discourse are directly related to events of the very end of this present world leading up to His return. They are the seven signs He gave in His Book of Revelation, which He covered in the form of Seals, Trumpets, and Vials. That's why the final sign He gave was about the event of His coming and the gathering of His saints to Him on the last day of this world. It's why He ended the Matt.24 chapter with a warning to be on 'watch'.

WRONG! That’s just wishful thinking and plain NUTS! As wrong as Full Preterists are to put the whole thing in the past, it is EQUALLY wrong to put the whole thing in the future!

JLB · May 21, 2012

Retrobyter says -

WRONG! That’s just wishful thinking and plain NUTS! As wrong as Full Preterists are to put the whole thing in the past, it is EQUALLY wrong to put the whole thing in the future!

The Word of God says - Matthew 24-

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

... but the end is not yet!

EVERYTHING Jesus taught the disciples in Matthew 24 is a reference to the time of the END!

It is evident, by the phrases He uses such as the one above where He says, but the end is not yet, that He is defining a countdown to the event of His actual RETURN to earth.

Furthermore, by using the descriptive language of verses 37-38, -

37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

it is clear that Jesus is teaching the reader that His discourse is referring to the last few years before His return, specifically the last 120 years of the time of the end, for that is how long it took Noah to build the Ark.

The Word of god is clear to all who would read it. Jesus was clearly defining the last few years of the end of this age!

I would say that anyone who would try and deceive the brethren otherwise has some sort of deceptive agenda.

Retrobyter, I don't know what you could possibly be thinking?

Thanks, JLB

How close is the Seven Year Tribulation?

How close are we to the seven year tribulation?

The seven year tribulation will happen within the next 10 years.

The seven year Tribulation could happen within the next 50 years but will probably not happen within

The seven year Tribulation has already started

The seven year Tribulation will happen, but I don't think it will happen in the next 50 years.

I don't believe in the seven year tribulation.

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