How close is the Seven Year Tribulation?

shturt678 · May 13, 2014

Floyd said:
Floyd, on 10 May 2014 - 3:04 PM, said:

I wasn't espousing any perspective other than what Scripture says, so that "shturt678" could ARRIVE to his Rev. 13 doctrine, rather than simply pick a salient point and declare victory.

As such, I attempted to outline those distinctions between Rev. 12 Seven Diadems on Seven Heads, versus the Rev. 13 TEN Diadems on TEN Horns. So the question is, -- What Changed?

With Best Regards,
DD

OK; thanks DD.
Floyd.

Click to expand...

Quote

Thank you again for your response, ie, wish I was on your team - you're coming out as an O.K. Christian the more I get to know you!

I always thought the Hebrew name Elohim is derived from a root found in the Arabic meaning (Semetic langauge of course) "to fear" or "to reverence." His omnipotence rouses man's reverence and holy fear rather than His agape, correct brother Floyd? IOW, it brings the Creator to man's notice rather as Elohim than from any other point of view.

Jack: the following are the various names of God (Elohim); depending on what He purposed/purposes in the Word. It is very illuminating, as it gives a /the key to understanding various parts of Scripture.
For example; when the Title "Zebaoth" is used, you can be sure you are reading about His purpose past or future; which nearly always is relative to His dealings with Israel; but in the future His dealings with Gentiles also.

4. THE DIVINE NAMES AND TITLES.

Elohim occurs 2.700 times. Its first occurrence connects it with creation, and give it its essential meaning as the Creator. It indicates His relation to mankind as His creatures (see note on 2 Chron. 18:31, where it stands in contrast with Jehovah as indicating covenant relationship). 'Elohim is God the Son, the living "WORD" with creature form to create (John 1:1. Col. 1:15-17. Rev. 3:14); and later, with human form to redeem (John 1:14). "Begotten of His Father before all worlds; born of His mother, in the world." In this creature form He appeared to the Patriarchs, a form not temporarily assumed. 'Elohim is indicated (as in A.V.) by ordinary small type, "God". See table on page 7.

Jehovah. While Elohim is God as the Creator of all things, Jehovah is the same God in covenant relation to those whom He has created (Cp. 2Chron. 18:31). Jehovah means the Eternal, the Immutable One, He Who WAS, and IS, and IS TO COME. The Divine definition is given in Gen. 21:33. He is especially, therefore, the God of Israel; and the God of those who are redeemed, and are thus now "in Christ". We can say "My God," but not "My Jehovah", for Jehovah is "MY God."

Jehovah is indicated (as in A.V.) by small capital letters, "LORD"' and by "GOD" when it occurs in combination with Adonai, in which case LORD GOD = Adonai Jehovah. The name Jehovah is combined with ten other words, which form what are known as "the Jehovah Titles." in the Hebrew Canon (Ap. 1). All are noted in the margin, in all their occurrences:--
JEHOVAH-JIREH = Jehovah will see, or provide. Gen. 22:14.

JEHOVAH-ROPHEKA = Jehovah that healeth thee. Ex. 15:26.

JEHOVAH-NISSI = Jehovah my banner. Ex. 17:15.

JEHOVAH-MeKADDISHKEM = Jehovah that doth sanctify you. Ex. 31:13. Lev. 20:8; 21:8; 22:32. Ezek. 20:12.

JEHOVAH-SHALOM = Jehovah [send] peace. Judg. 6:24.

JEHOVAH-ZeBA'OTH = Jehovah of hosts. 1Sam. 1:3, and frequently.

JEHOVAH-ZIDKENU = Jehovah our righteousness. Jer. 23:6; 33:16.

JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH = Jehovah is there. Ezek. 48:35.

JEHOVAH-ELYON = Jehovah most high. Ps. 7:17; 47:2; 97:9.

JEHOVAH-RO'I = Jehovah my Shepherd. Ps. 23:1.

We have seven of these, experimentally referred to, in Ps. 23, inasmuch as Jehovah, the "Good," "Great," and "Chief Shepherd," is engaged, in all the perfection of His attributes, on behalf of His sheep:--
In verse 1, we have No. 1 above.
In verse 2, we have No. 5.
In verse 3, we have Nos. 2 and 7.
In verse 4, we have No. 8.
In verse 5, we have Nos. 3 and 4.

[*]Jah is Jehovah in a special sense and relation. Jehovah as having BECOME our Salvation (first occ. Ex. 15:2), He Who IS, and WAS, and IS TO COME. It occurs 49 times (7 x 7. See Ap. 10). Compare Psalm 68. 4, 18.
[*]
[*]
[*]EL is essentially the Almighty, thought the word is never so rendered (see below, "Shaddai"). EL is Elohim in all His strength and power. It is rendered "God" as Elohim is, but El is God the Omnipotent. Elohim is God the Creator putting His omnipotence into operation. Eloah (see below) is God Who wills and orders all, and Who is to be the one object of the worship of His people. El is the God Who knows all (first occ. Gen. 14:18:22) and sees all (Gen. 16:13) and that performeth all things for His people (Ps. 57:2); and in Whom all the Divine attributes are concentrated.

El is indicated in this edition by type in large capital letters, thus: "GOD." It is sometimes transliterated in proper names Immanue-'el, Beth-'el, &c., where it is translated, as explained in the margin.
[*]
[*]
[*]Eloah is Elohim, Who is to be worshipped. Eloah is God in connection with His Will rather than His power. The first occurrence associates this name with worship (Deut. 32:15, 17). Hence it is the title used whenever the contrast (latent or expressed) is with false gods or idols. Eloah is essentially "the living God" in contrast to inanimate idols. Eloah is rendered "God", but we have indicated it by type thus: GOD.
[*]
[*]
[*]Elyon first occurs in Gen. 14:18 with El, and is rendered "the most high (God)". It is El and Elohim, not as the powerful Creator, but as "the possessor of heaven and earth." Hence the name is associated with Christ as the Son of "the Highest" (Luke 1:35). It is Elyon, as possessor of the earth, Who divides the nations "their inheritance". In Ps. 83:18, He is "over all the earth". The title occurs 36 times (6 x 6 or 62 See Ap. 10).

Elyon is the Dispenser of God's blessings in the earth; the blessings proceeding from a Priest Who is a King upon His throne (cp. Gen. 14:18-22 with Zech. 6:13; 14:9).
[*]
[*]
[*]Shaddai is in every instance translated "Almighty", and is indicated by small capital letters ("ALMIGHTY"). It is God (El), not as the source of strength, but of grace; not as Creator, but as the Giver. Shaddai is the All-bountiful. This title does not refer to His creative power, but to His power to supply all the needs of His people. Its first occurrence is in Gen. 17:1, and is used to show Abraham that He Who called him out to walk alone before Him could supply all his need. Even so it is the title used in 2Cor. 6:18, where we are cal 1000 led to "come out" in separation from the world. It is always used in connection with El (see above).
[*]
[*]
[*]Adon is one of the three titles (ADON, ADONAI, and ADONIM), all generally rendered "Lord"; but each has its own peculiar usage and association. They all denote headship in various aspects. They have to do with God as "over-lord."

Adon is the Lord as Ruler in the earth. We have indicated this in type by printing the preceding article or pronouns in small capitals, not because either are to be emphasized, but to distinguish the word "Lord" from Adonai, which is always so printed in the A.V.

Adonai is the Lord in His relation to the earth; and as carrying out His purposes of blessing in the earth. With this limitation it is almost equivalent to Jehovah. Indeed, it was from an early date so used, by associating the vowel points of the word Jehovah with Adon, thus converting Adon into Adonai. A list of 134 passages where this was deliberately done is preserved and given in the Massorah (107-115). (See Ap. 32) We have indicated these by printing the word like Jehovah, putting an asterisk, thus: LORD*.

Adonim is the plural of Adon, never used of man. Adonim carries with it all that Adon does, but in a greater and higher degree; and more especially as owner and proprietor. An Adon may rule others who do not belong to him. Hence (without the article) it is often used of men. But Adonim is the Lord Who rules His own. We have indicated it by type, thus: LORD.

The three may be thus briefly distinguished:--
Adon is the Lord as overlord or ruler.
Adonim is the Lord as owner.
Adonai is the Lord as blesser.

[*]
[*]The Types used to indicate the above titles, in the text, are as follows:--

God = Elohim.

GOD = Jehovah (in combination with Adonai, "Lord").

GOD* = Jehovah in the Primitive Texts, altered by Sopherim to Elohim as the Printed Text. (See Ap. 32.)

GOD = El.

GOD = Eloah.

LORD = Jehovah.

THE LORD = Jah.

LORD* = Jehovah in the Primitive Texts, altered by Sopherim to Adonai as in the Printed Text. (See Ap. 32.)

Lord = Adonai.

LORD = Adonim.

ALMIGHTY = Shaddai.

MOST HIGH = Elyon.

[*]
[*]The Combinations are indicated as follows:--
Adonai Jehovah = Lord GOD.

Jehovah Elohim = LORD God.

Elyon El = MOST HIGH GOD.
El Shaddai = GOD ALMIGHTY

Jack; the above list is courtesy of Dr. David Ginsburg and Dr. E. W. Bullinger It also lays to rest the erroneous teaching, negating the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ!

Floyd: www.revelationsmessage.co.uk

I didn't want to leave the impression that I took your work with a grain of salt, ie, agreeing Textually with most, where, indeed, of course regarding the Godman Jesus, we'll have to agree to disagree - Jesus is even paying attention to our posts.

You really care especially in a time where even most of our nation's 65% Christians do not care that much during the week - good job!

Old Jack

Floyd · May 14, 2014

From Jack:
I always thought the Hebrew name Elohim is derived from a root found in the Arabic meaning (Semetic langauge of course) "to fear" or "to reverence." His omnipotence rouses man's reverence and holy fear rather than His agape, correct brother Floyd? IOW, it brings the Creator to man's notice rather as Elohim than from any other point of view.

From Floyd;
Jack, regarding your comment on the word "agape"; as you know in the Grk. there are many levels of "love"!
The following gives some insight to the great depth of that love that God has for the world's people.

The Perfect Plan of Redemption, that only God could conceive, wherein the Perfect Love of God would allow Satan to perform to his vile worst in heaven as well as earth after the overthrow of Genesis, all of which is observed by heavenly creation (Eph. 3:10.) Some argue that such a protracted process is wasteful, painful, and suffers great loss of life and environment. That is to miss the main point. It is of course easily possible for Almighty God to eliminate Satan. To do so however prematurely would not allow creation to see the depth of sin that Satan will eventually stoop to.
Floyd Love (ultimate);

shturt678 · May 14, 2014

Floyd said:
From Floyd;
Jack, regarding your comment on the word "agape"; as you know in the Grk. there are many levels of "love"!
The following gives some insight to the great depth of that love that God has for the world's people.

The Perfect Plan of Redemption, that only God could conceive, wherein the Perfect Love of God would allow Satan to perform to his vile worst in heaven as well as earth after the overthrow of Genesis, all of which is observed by heavenly creation (Eph. 3:10.) Some argue that such a protracted process is wasteful, painful, and suffers great loss of life and environment. That is to miss the main point. It is of course easily possible for Almighty God to eliminate Satan. To do so however prematurely would not allow creation to see the depth of sin that Satan will eventually stoop to.
Floyd Love (ultimate);

Click to expand...

Thank you again, and your caring!

Only a head's up from a lower paygrade authority, ie, only four types of the concept of "love" in Koine where agape is the highest form of all of the four. I always try to reason from the 'general' to the 'specific' eliminating the spurious hopefully resulting the genuine 'specific' denotation of a Biblical concept, eg, we can eliminate Wikipedia's "Unconditional love" definition of "Agape" right off the bat (the "object loved" comports with the English usage - way of thinking, and not the ancient Greeks'), and nothing against Wiki, ie, I use it all the time in my careless haste.

However I found your view of "love" as heading in the right direction where most dead end with varius shades of the "object loved." Again, good job, ie, no condescending, rhetoric, or sarcasm in any shade intended. Too general, and needs to be more specific dealing with the "object understood" for a higher corresponding "intelligent purpose" which you did bring forth to a degree where most don't. Secondly, we need to include "man" into the denotation.

Old Jack just kicking things around with you.

Again, btw, we are nearing the very end of the end of the "Tribulation, the great one," where too too many project this off to some future time that also projects the forever warnings of "preliminary judgments" from our Lord Godman Jesus in heaven possibly even this moment.

Floyd · May 14, 2014

shturt678 said:
Thank you again, and your caring!

Only a head's up from a lower paygrade authority, ie, only four types of the concept of "love" in Koine where agape is the highest form of all of the four. I always try to reason from the 'general' to the 'specific' eliminating the spurious hopefully resulting the genuine 'specific' denotation of a Biblical concept, eg, we can eliminate Wikipedia's "Unconditional love" definition of "Agape" right off the bat (the "object loved" comports with the English usage - way of thinking, and not the ancient Greeks'), and nothing against Wiki, ie, I use it all the time in my careless haste.

However I found your view of "love" as heading in the right direction where most dead end with varius shades of the "object loved." Again, good job, ie, no condescending, rhetoric, or sarcasm in any shade intended. Too general, and needs to be more specific dealing with the "object understood" for a higher corresponding "intelligent purpose" which you did bring forth to a degree where most don't. Secondly, we need to include "man" into the denotation.

Old Jack just kicking things around with you.

Again, btw, we are nearing the very end of the end of the "Tribulation, the great one," where too too many project this off to some future time that also projects the forever warnings of "preliminary judgments" from our Lord Godman Jesus in heaven possibly even this moment.

Again Jack I don't agree with your definition of the Great Tribulation.

[SIZE=12pt]V14[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]And I said unto him, "my[/SIZE] Lord, thou knowest." And he said to me, (a)"These are they who came out of The Great Tribulation, (b)and washed their robes, and made them white by the blood of the Lamb.
[SIZE=12pt](a) See comment on V.9 above. There are many teachers (if not most!) that emphatically state that the ones referred to here are all Christians of all Ages (i.e. different Age times.) One of the justifications for that view is the reference in Rev. 4:1; "After these things," i.e. taught as after the seven churches of Rev. 2 and 3, and implying or stating that at that juncture (i.e. between Chp[/SIZE]. 3 and 4) the Translation of the Church (the Body of Christ) shall have taken place. This seems to be a majority view. However, the writers at this stage in time (Jan. 2001) do not hold to that view. To pivot so emphatically on Rev. 4:1 seems perverse, and stretches or ignores the meanings of [SIZE=12pt]Rev. 1:10 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](see notes,) where "the Day of the Lord (i.e. Jehovah,) to the writers seems the most profound pivot point in time, and is repeatedly referred to throughout the Old Testament, as one of the most profound changes on earth brought about by the Almighty. Also the whole scene is set by Christ before[/SIZE] He addresses the 7 churches, where, predominantly "overcoming" is a repeated exhortation, and specific time is given to "endure" to Smyrna of 10 days! Whereas, specific times are carefully avoided in general in the New Testament, but time given in “days” generally in Scripture refer to troubled times in the context of Israel!
[SIZE=12pt]It is of course held by many not impossible that the Body of Christ is still on earth at that time and that "overcoming" is a later specific to be added to "faith." However, that would fly in the face of earlier teaching, especially by Paul, and would conflict with his writings, which were given veracity by our Lord’s comments “he is a chosen vessel!”[/SIZE] As mentioned above, the writers at this stage hold to the view that "the 7 churches,"[SIZE=12pt] are specific to the 7 year period yet to be enacted of Daniel's vision,[/SIZE] (see Rev. 11:2,) which is in a different Age (administration) of Jehovah, hence Christ’s new instruction and exhortation to them.
[SIZE=12pt]A further view is that the 7 ekklesia[/SIZE], (called out ones) refer to the history of the Jews at their various stages, which is a view developed by men in an attempt to explain the difference to earlier Old Testament standards, but ignores the fact that Christ never has dealt with Israel direct except in the flesh! (see Matt. 15:24 .) It is the failure of men and women to discern the changes in God’s Administrations (Ages,) with their changes of emphasis and rules, that has led, and still leads to wrong understanding and teaching. This leads to good hearted people being locked into wrong understandings and conflicting harmful teaching, with many people despairing. Most teaching groups are now iron-clad, and will not allow anything but their own standard view, even though they do not understand their own teaching, and are themselves confused.
[SIZE=12pt](b) "Washed their robes;"[/SIZE] this profound comment, defines the difference between these people, and the people of the Church (Body) of Christ. In the case of the latter, God sees the individual in Christ, through Christ, through faith alone. In the case of the former, "they wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb," so are accepted by the Father for their works and their faith in God and Christ in the Great Tribulation. Both groups have Christ as Saviour, in different Dispensations.

Floyd: The Great Tribulation

shturt678 · May 15, 2014

Floyd said:
Again Jack I don't agree with your definition of the Great Tribulation.

Click to expand...

Thank you again for your response!

I'll contact our Lord Godman Jesus to send you an Interlinear, eg. Rev.7:14, noting the repetition of the articles showing emphasis, and the ol' hyperbaton, "the tribulation, the great one,...." Not "The Great Tribulation."

[SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]

V14

[SIZE=12pt]And I said unto him, "my[/SIZE] Lord, thou knowest." And he said to me, (a)"These are they who came out of The Great Tribulation, (b)and washed their robes, and made them white by the blood of the Lamb.
[SIZE=12pt](a) See comment on V.9 above. There are many teachers (if not most!) that emphatically state that the ones referred to here are all Christians of all Ages (i.e. different Age times.) One of the justifications for that view is the reference in Rev. 4:1; "After these things," i.e. taught as after the seven churches of Rev. 2 and 3, and implying or stating that at that juncture (i.e. between Chp[/SIZE]. 3 and 4) the Translation of the Church (the Body of Christ) shall have taken place. This seems to be a majority view. However, the writers at this stage in time (Jan. 2001) do not hold to that view. To pivot so emphatically on Rev. 4:1 seems perverse, and stretches or ignores the meanings of [SIZE=12pt]Rev. 1:10 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](see notes,) where "the Day of the Lord (i.e. Jehovah,) to the writers seems the most profound pivot point in time, and is repeatedly referred to throughout the Old Testament, as one of the most profound changes on earth brought about by the Almighty. Also the whole scene is set by Christ before[/SIZE] He addresses the 7 churches, where, predominantly "overcoming" is a repeated exhortation, and specific time is given to "endure" to Smyrna of 10 days! Whereas, specific times are carefully avoided in general in the New Testament, but time given in “days” generally in Scripture refer to troubled times in the context of Israel!
[SIZE=12pt]It is of course held by many not impossible that the Body of Christ is still on earth at that time and that "overcoming" is a later specific to be added to "faith." However, that would fly in the face of earlier teaching, especially by Paul, and would conflict with his writings, which were given veracity by our Lord’s comments “he is a chosen vessel!”[/SIZE] As mentioned above, the writers at this stage hold to the view that "the 7 churches,"[SIZE=12pt] are specific to the 7 year period yet to be enacted of Daniel's vision,[/SIZE] (see Rev. 11:2,) which is in a different Age (administration) of Jehovah, hence Christ’s new instruction and exhortation to them.
[SIZE=12pt]A further view is that the 7 ekklesia[/SIZE], (called out ones) refer to the history of the Jews at their various stages, which is a view developed by men in an attempt to explain the difference to earlier Old Testament standards, but ignores the fact that Christ never has dealt with Israel direct except in the flesh! (see Matt. 15:24 .) It is the failure of men and women to discern the changes in God’s Administrations (Ages,) with their changes of emphasis and rules, that has led, and still leads to wrong understanding and teaching. This leads to good hearted people being locked into wrong understandings and conflicting harmful teaching, with many people despairing. Most teaching groups are now iron-clad, and will not allow anything but their own standard view, even though they do not understand their own teaching, and are themselves confused.
[SIZE=12pt]( B) "Washed their robes;"[/SIZE] this profound comment, defines the difference between these people, and the people of the Church (Body) of Christ. In the case of the latter, God sees the individual in Christ, through Christ, through faith alone. In the case of the former, "they wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb," so are accepted by the Father for their works and their faith in God and Christ in the Great Tribulation. Both groups have Christ as Saviour, in different Dispensations.

Floyd: The Great Tribulation

Old Jack

We're near the end of the symbolic 7 year tribulation, ie, during the whole N.T. era.

Floyd · May 16, 2014

shturt678 said:
Again Jack I don't agree with your definition of the Great Tribulation.

Click to expand...

Thank you again for your response!

I'll contact our Lord Godman Jesus to send you an Interlinear, eg. Rev.7:14, noting the repetition of the articles showing emphasis, and the ol' hyperbaton, "the tribulation, the great one,...." Not "The Great Tribulation."

V14

[SIZE=12pt]And I said unto him, "my[/SIZE] Lord, thou knowest." And he said to me, (a)"These are they who came out of The Great Tribulation, (b)and washed their robes, and made them white by the blood of the Lamb.
[SIZE=12pt](a) See comment on V.9 above. There are many teachers (if not most!) that emphatically state that the ones referred to here are all Christians of all Ages (i.e. different Age times.) One of the justifications for that view is the reference in Rev. 4:1; "After these things," i.e. taught as after the seven churches of Rev. 2 and 3, and implying or stating that at that juncture (i.e. between Chp[/SIZE]. 3 and 4) the Translation of the Church (the Body of Christ) shall have taken place. This seems to be a majority view. However, the writers at this stage in time (Jan. 2001) do not hold to that view. To pivot so emphatically on Rev. 4:1 seems perverse, and stretches or ignores the meanings of [SIZE=12pt]Rev. 1:10 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](see notes,) where "the Day of the Lord (i.e. Jehovah,) to the writers seems the most profound pivot point in time, and is repeatedly referred to throughout the Old Testament, as one of the most profound changes on earth brought about by the Almighty. Also the whole scene is set by Christ before[/SIZE] He addresses the 7 churches, where, predominantly "overcoming" is a repeated exhortation, and specific time is given to "endure" to Smyrna of 10 days! Whereas, specific times are carefully avoided in general in the New Testament, but time given in “days” generally in Scripture refer to troubled times in the context of Israel!
[SIZE=12pt]It is of course held by many not impossible that the Body of Christ is still on earth at that time and that "overcoming" is a later specific to be added to "faith." However, that would fly in the face of earlier teaching, especially by Paul, and would conflict with his writings, which were given veracity by our Lord’s comments “he is a chosen vessel!”[/SIZE] As mentioned above, the writers at this stage hold to the view that "the 7 churches,"[SIZE=12pt] are specific to the 7 year period yet to be enacted of Daniel's vision,[/SIZE] (see Rev. 11:2,) which is in a different Age (administration) of Jehovah, hence Christ’s new instruction and exhortation to them.
[SIZE=12pt]A further view is that the 7 ekklesia[/SIZE], (called out ones) refer to the history of the Jews at their various stages, which is a view developed by men in an attempt to explain the difference to earlier Old Testament standards, but ignores the fact that Christ never has dealt with Israel direct except in the flesh! (see Matt. 15:24 .) It is the failure of men and women to discern the changes in God’s Administrations (Ages,) with their changes of emphasis and rules, that has led, and still leads to wrong understanding and teaching. This leads to good hearted people being locked into wrong understandings and conflicting harmful teaching, with many people despairing. Most teaching groups are now iron-clad, and will not allow anything but their own standard view, even though they do not understand their own teaching, and are themselves confused.
[SIZE=12pt]( B) "Washed their robes;"[/SIZE] this profound comment, defines the difference between these people, and the people of the Church (Body) of Christ. In the case of the latter, God sees the individual in Christ, through Christ, through faith alone. In the case of the former, "they wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb," so are accepted by the Father for their works and their faith in God and Christ in the Great Tribulation. Both groups have Christ as Saviour, in different Dispensations.

Floyd: The Great Tribulation

Old Jack

We're near the end of the symbolic 7 year tribulation, ie, during the whole N.T. era.

We are nearing the end of the NT era, as it's called; but the world has not yet started the last 7 years of the prophecy given to Daniel of 490 years, of which there are 7 years still to run. Part of that 7 years is taken up with "Jacob's Trouble", which has a duration of 3.5 years!
I have given you the detail of this before!
Floyd. [SIZE=13.5pt]The Great Tribulation[/SIZE]

shturt678 · May 16, 2014

Floyd said:
We are nearing the end of the NT era, as it's called; but the world has not yet started the last 7 years of the prophecy given to Daniel of 490 years, of which there are 7 years still to run. Part of that 7 years is taken up with "Jacob's Trouble", which has a duration of 3.5 years!
I have given you the detail of this before!
Floyd. [SIZE=13.5pt]The Great Tribulation[/SIZE]

Click to expand...

Thank you for your caring for sure, and your response!

Jacob's Trouble is sadly misunderstood my true sparring partner and Christian brother. Jer.30:7 began with the fall of the Babylonian monarch of course - judgment on the nations, and the deliverance of the TRUE SPIRITUAL ISREAL (Joel 2:2, 11).

Old Jack, ie, unable to get through to our Lord Godman Jesus Christ through the coconut wireless at this time, for Him to send you an Interlinear - I try again later.

Floyd · May 16, 2014

shturt678 said:
Thank you for your caring for sure, and your response!

Jacob's Trouble is sadly misunderstood my true sparring partner and Christian brother. Jer.30:7 began with the fall of the Babylonian monarch of course - judgment on the nations, and the deliverance of the TRUE SPIRITUAL ISREAL (Joel 2:2, 11).

Old Jack, ie, unable to get through to our Lord Godman Jesus Christ through the coconut wireless at this time, for Him to send you an Interlinear - I try again later.

Jacob's Troublehttp://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/Jacobs Trouble.htm

[SIZE=16pt]What does the above phrase mean? It is mentioned frequently in discussions on the subject of prophecy; especially in relation to “latter days”, or as some call them “end times”.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Jacob was one of the sons of Isaac, who was the son of Abraham and Sarah; and Isaac was a son of “promise” to them, as they were very old (approx. 100 years old) when he was born; Gen. 17. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Jacob was a very hard working, diligent, and also cunning man; who was tricked by his uncle Laban into working for much longer than he need have done for the hand in marriage of his daughter Rachel. Jacob, having already worked 7 years, was then tricked into accepting Leah as his wife! He agreed to work 7 more years for Rachel; Gen. 29.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Although this may seem hard in modern eyes, Jacob, with the leadership and collusion of his mother, had “stolen” the “birth- right” of the older son from his father Isaac; Gen. 27. In that context, the extra 7 years of servitude seem quite light.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]However, Jacob had shown by his own freewill, that he revered God, and had paid Him homage on his journey to Laban’s household; Gen. 28.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]A very important event happened to Jacob just prior to his departure from Laben after 14 years of service. He had already gathered from Laben a very large number of his flocks; Gen. 30, which made him a wealthy man. He encountered God in a physical event; his name was changed from Jacob to Israel (Prince with God), and the Promises made to Abraham and Isaac were endowed for continuation in him; and his offspring; Gen. 32:28; 35:10. This whole event was to bring Jacob into submission to God/Jehovah; and to make him realise his need to rely on God for all things![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Out of these early beginnings, Jacob had 12 sons, who became the first of the 12 tribes of Israel. After Jacob/Israel had been drawn to Egypt by Joseph during the famine of that time, the Israelites grew in numbers over the following 400 years; and because of the jealousy of the later generations of Egyptians , they became slaves to them; , until the actions of God though Moses.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]In the following years after the Exodus from Egypt, they eventually entered the “promised land”, and eventually had their own Kings. They were however repeatedly unfaithful to their Jehovah (God in Covenant relationship with Israel); and because of that infidelity they were taken in captivity to Babylon and Assyria.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Under Nehemiah and Ezra they were re-established in Jerusalem and environs, and continued for the next few hundred years to exist under various rulers. By the time of the Romans they were looking strongly for their Messiah to relieve them of the Roman yoke! [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]In this environment of anticipation the Jews were very restless, and tried to adopt a number of men who were active and resistant against the Roman occupation as “Messiahs”, to no avail, ending in the deaths of those men.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]During this period and prior to the 1st Advent of Jesus, the dominant Jewish group (the Pharisees), had been searching their scriptures for evidence of the Messiah’s credentials, which they determined would be of human origin, not Divine! This was because for hundreds of years, the original scriptures given to Moses had been altered to eliminate Divine origin! Also; the Pharisees had formulated their own rules and scriptures, which gave them royal powers, which previously had been the prerogative of kingship! These powers were the final arbiter between the Pharisees and all ordinary Jews; and there was no appeal, which meant banishment from all but the lowest levels of society for men and women who fell foul of Pharisaic law! These people were known as “sinners and publicans”, and were at a desperate level of life and society![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Into this environment came Jesus, who mixed with “publicans and sinners”, and by doing so enraged the ruling Pharisees![/SIZE]

[SIZE=18pt]Jesus said repeatedly that He came only to the lost sheep of Israel (at that time), and the Gospels show that many “ordinary” people were drawn to Him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=18pt]He eventually proclaimed His Messiah- ship; but because the ruling Pharisees expected a warrior human messiah, to release them from the Romans, they and the people eventually rejected Him, despite the evidential miracles He had performed.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=18pt]Jesus the Christ (Anointed of God) was, as the world knows, crucified outside the city walls of Jerusalem 2000 years ago.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=18pt]The Apostle Paul was selected by God as a “chosen vessel” to explain to the Jews (first); the meaning of the crucifixion of Jesus, but 30 years later at his last synagogue visit in Rome, the Jews finally rejected Jesus as their Messiah; and in the poignant statement by Paul in Acts 28:25-28, the Gospel was focused on the Gentiles as first priority “and they will hear”, as Paul declared! At the same time the Jews became “Lo-Ammi” not my people (as first priority); but can become Christians in the same way as Gentiles.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=18pt]Since that time, approx. AD 61; the Jews have been put to one side by God, dispersed throughout the world, suffered greatly at the hands of Gentiles (pogroms); but recently (1948) have been declared a Nation again; but very few Jews live in Israel, compared with their worldwide population! The present land borders could not in any case accommodate their numbers, but their future borders will (Gen. 15:18).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=18pt]We now approach the core of this subject. Why would Israel (Jacob) have to experience what is called “Jacob’s trouble”, or persecution?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=18pt]It has been shown that the Jewish nation is called Israel, because Jacob’s name was changed to Isra-el in Gen. 32 and reiterated in Gen. 35. That was because Gen.32:28 states; (AV,KJV) “God said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob (contender, used of the natural Jacob), but Israel (God commands, orders or rules): for as a prince (commander, orderer) hast thou power with God and with men. And hast prevailed”. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=18pt]This change of name meant that Jacob/Israel was to lean on/rely on God in the future for all its needs, and was to be commissioned by God to evangelise the world as to His Deity, and to show/witness to Him only; allowing no pagan activity of any sort, including remaining free of interaction by marriage with any of the pagan tribes that would be their neighbours when they entered the “land of promise”! 4:22, the Oracles of God were theirs to proclaim to all the world! [/SIZE]
[SIZE=18pt]Their blessings were conditional on them keeping to their word which they gave on numerous occasions, after being rescued from distress by God. During times of trouble or rebellion against God, He sent to them messengers in the form of prophets, who showed them the error of their ways, usually to no avail, except for short periods; usually when a God revering man or king influenced them![/SIZE]
[SIZE=18pt]The result of their rebellions over centuries, was that they lost favour with their Jehovah God; and the consequence was the loss of their status as “Ammi” (my people), and the Oracles were passed over to the Gentiles to evangelise the worlds peoples and nations. This happened in approx. AD61-2, and the Jews were dispersed world-wide; because of the final rejection of Christ Jesus as their Messiah when Paul visited the final important synagogue in Rome![/SIZE]
[SIZE=18pt]The outcome is that Israel must experience a period of time in the yet future, called “Jacob’s Trouble” (Jer.30:7). This co-relates with Matt. 24, and in particular to the death-bed statements of Jacob, Gen. 49:1, and concerns the “latter days”, which again correlates to Dan. 2:44, “the days of those kings” (yet future). The fact of the “stone cut without human hands”Dan. 2:34; this correlates with Jacob’s statement in Gen. 49:24 “from whence is the Shepherd the Stone of Israel”; showing that the two statements are the same time; i.e. “the latter days”, yet future of today’s date (2014)![/SIZE]
[SIZE=18pt]A full reading of Jer.30 and connected verses throughout Scripture, shows Israel is to be rescued by Jehovah/Christ Jesus, and eventually installed as “a kingdom of priests unto God”, Rev. 1:6, 5:10, 20:6, Ex.19:6.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=18pt]However, that is after the 3.5 years of Jacob’s trouble Dan.9:27; and God’s wrath on the Gentile nations, which will see a massive population reduction on earth![/SIZE]
[SIZE=18pt]The end result will be the quote in Zech. 12:10, “they shall look unto Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourneth for his only son, and they shall be in bitterness for Him, as one is in bitterness for his firstborn” (KJV).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=18pt]They will mourn because they will realise for the first time their treachery towards their Jehovah, His prophets, and most of all His Son; Himself Incarnate; given for them![/SIZE]

Floyd.

shturt678 · May 17, 2014

Floyd said:
<snip> only for clarity

Thank you for your response and caring again!

[SIZE=18pt][/SIZE]

We now approach the core of this subject. Why would Israel (Jacob) have to experience what is called “Jacob’s trouble”, or persecution?

Click to expand...

[SIZE=18pt]It has been shown that the Jewish nation is called Israel, because Jacob’s name was changed to Isra-el in Gen. 32 and reiterated in Gen. 35. That was because Gen.32:28 states; (AV,KJV) “God said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob (contender, used of the natural Jacob), but Israel (God commands, orders or rules): for as a prince (commander, orderer) hast thou power with God and with men. And hast prevailed”. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=18pt]This change of name meant that Jacob/Israel was to lean on/rely on God in the future for all its needs, and was to be commissioned by God to evangelise the world as to His Deity, and to show/witness to Him only; allowing no pagan activity of any sort, including remaining free of interaction by marriage with any of the pagan tribes that would be their neighbours when they entered the “land of promise”! 4:22, the Oracles of God were theirs to proclaim to all the world! [/SIZE]
[SIZE=18pt]Their blessings were conditional on them keeping to their word which they gave on numerous occasions, after being rescued from distress by God. During times of trouble or rebellion against God, He sent to them messengers in the form of prophets, who showed them the error of their ways, usually to no avail, except for short periods; usually when a God revering man or king influenced them![/SIZE]
[SIZE=18pt]The result of their rebellions over centuries, was that they lost favour with their Jehovah God; and the consequence was the loss of their status as “Ammi” (my people), and the Oracles were passed over to the Gentiles to evangelise the worlds peoples and nations. This happened in approx. AD61-2, and the Jews were dispersed world-wide; because of the final rejection of Christ Jesus as their Messiah when Paul visited the final important synagogue in Rome![/SIZE]

[SIZE=18pt][/SIZE]
The outcome is that Israel must experience a period of time in the yet future, called “Jacob’s Trouble” (Jer.30:7).

First and foremost all the O.T. prophets seen only "1" Return of Christ combining the 1st Advent with the 2nd except Daniel, ie, called the 'implicatude' of the writer which even rules the context. Jer.30:7, 9, "a time of distress for Jacob....v.9, and David their king, whom I shall raise up to time." The MESSIAH!

In v.7 the cause fo the horror is declared. It's the great day of judgment that is coming. "That (not this) day" points to the future, and thus, even apart from other reasons, excludes the supposition that it's the day of the destrcution of Jersalem that is meant (Matt.24). The words "that day is great" refer to Joel 2:11, and "there is none like it" is an imitation of Joel 2:2; in the latter passage the prophet makes use of a judgment which he had seen passed on Judah, its devastation by locusts, - and for the first time presents, as the main element in his prophecy, the idea of the great day of judgment (the day for Jacob also) to come on all nations, and by which the Lord will perfect HIS Kingdom (the supreme concept of the N.T.) on this earth, the faithful will be delivered.

Joel 2:2, 11 Christ's 2nd Coming and including all preliminary judgments.

[SIZE=18pt][/SIZE]

This co-relates with Matt. 24, and in particular to the death-bed statements of Jacob, Gen. 49:1, and concerns the “latter days”, which again correlates to Dan. 2:44, “the days of those kings” (yet future). The fact of the “stone cut without human hands”Dan. 2:34; this correlates with Jacob’s statement in Gen. 49:24 “from whence is the Shepherd the Stone of Israel”; showing that the two statements are the same time; i.e. “the latter days”, yet future of today’s date (2014)!

[SIZE=18pt]A full reading of Jer.30 and connected verses throughout Scripture, shows Israel is to be rescued by Jehovah/Christ Jesus, and eventually installed as “a kingdom of priests unto God”, Rev. 1:6, 5:10, 20:6, Ex.19:6.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=18pt]However, that is after the 3.5 years of Jacob’s trouble Dan.9:27; and God’s wrath on the Gentile nations, which will see a massive population reduction on earth![/SIZE]
[SIZE=18pt]The end result will be the quote in Zech. 12:10, “they shall look unto Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourneth for his only son, and they shall be in bitterness for Him, as one is in bitterness for his firstborn” (KJV).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=18pt]They will mourn because they will realise for the first time their treachery towards their Jehovah, His prophets, and most of all His Son; Himself Incarnate; given for them![/SIZE]

Floyd.

old Jack

Floyd · May 22, 2014

Your responses Jack are making less and less sense?
Floyd.

shturt678 · May 22, 2014

Floyd said:
Your responses Jack are making less and less sense?
Floyd.

Click to expand...

Thank you for your response, and caring again!

Let's simplify, ie, Jer.30:7 began with the fall of the Babylonian monarchy - judgment on the nations, and deliverance of the true spiritual Israel in light of Rom.9:6, 7 - the "spiritual seed," and not the "children" contextually. "Israel" without the Godman Jesus has had it!

Only a head's up, ie, not that simple, the 3.5 started in 70 A.D. - signified in both Daniel and Revelation in light of Lk.21:24).

Old lucid Jack

Floyd · May 24, 2014

shturt678 said:
Thank you for your response, and caring again!

Let's simplify, ie, Jer.30:7 began with the fall of the Babylonian monarchy - judgment on the nations, and deliverance of the true spiritual Israel in light of Rom.9:6, 7 - the "spiritual seed," and not the "children" contextually. "Israel" without the Godman Jesus has had it!

Only a head's up, ie, not that simple, the 3.5 started in 70 A.D. - signified in both Daniel and Revelation in light of Lk.21:24).

Old lucid Jack

No; here we go again; you are wrong.
Floyd.

shturt678 · May 24, 2014

Floyd said:
No; here we go again; you are wrong.
Floyd.

Click to expand...

Thank you for your response again, and caring!

Hey, my brother, a good kick-start for today - We agree to agree, I can't remember when I was absolutle right? However we have a pretty powerful Godman Lord Jesus Christ who is never 'wrong,' eg, Lk.11:21, 22 regarding the beginning of the 3.5. Here's your chance to show me where the interpretation of the former is "wrong."

Lk.11:21, 22, "Whenever the strong man (I wonder if the "strong man" is applicable to Satan personally?),....; v.22 but whenever one stronger than he (I wonder if the "stronger than he" is the Godman Jesus?)"

If the tertium in the former illustration is the fact that complete defeat must precede the act of plundering-God's Kingdom must have come before demioninacs could be liberated as Jesus was liberating them, correct?

Old, trying to get it 'right,' Jack

Now is your chance to raise the bar one notch and specifically reveal to me error instead of "you are wrong again."

Retrobyter · May 24, 2014

Shabbat shalom, Jack.

shturt678 said:
Thank you for your response, and caring again!

Let's simplify, ie, Jer.30:7 began with the fall of the Babylonian monarchy - judgment on the nations, and deliverance of the true spiritual Israel in light of Rom.9:6, 7 - the "spiritual seed," and not the "children" contextually. "Israel" without the Godman Jesus has had it!

Only a head's up, ie, not that simple, the 3.5 started in 70 A.D. - signified in both Daniel and Revelation in light of Lk.21:24).

Old lucid Jack

No, actually, the first 3.5 years of His offer of the Kingdom to the tribe of Y'hudah (Judah) was made from His baptism to His death on the cross. The SECOND 3.5 years of His offer will be made to the tribe of Y'hudah (the Jews) AFTER He returns! After they have accepted Him as their King, He will move on to be King over all Isra'el, and then become a King over many kings as His Empire develops.

Consider how the following are connected:

Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation (the END), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

which makes a reference to Psalm 118:26 by quotation:

Psalm 118:22-26
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.
KJV

Hebrews 10:1-22
10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. (a reference to Yom Kippur)
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
KJV

Matthew 27:50-54
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
KJV

Thus, it was HE who put the "gap" between the first half and the second half of the seventieth Seven! And, it is WITHIN that "gap," that the "tribulation" will occur - not a "seven-year tribulation," but closer to a 2,000-year tribulation period - the Time of Jacob's Trouble.

As far as "'Israel' without the Godman Jesus has had it!" is concerned:

1 Chronicles 28:1-29:25
28 And David assembled all the princes of Israel, the princes of the tribes, and the captains of the companies that ministered to the king by course, and the captains over the thousands, and captains over the hundreds, and the stewards over all the substance and possession of the king, and of his sons, with the officers, and with the mighty men, and with all the valiant men, unto Jerusalem.
2 Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building:
3 But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood.
4 Howbeit the LORD God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for he hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he liked me to make me king over all Israel:
5 And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.
6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.
7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.
8 Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of the LORD, and in the audience of our God, keep and seek for all the commandments of the LORD your God: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you for ever.
9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
10 Take heed now; for the LORD hath chosen thee to build an house for the sanctuary: be strong, and do it.
11 Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,
12 And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the LORD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:
13 Also for the courses of the priests and the Levites, and for all the work of the service of the house of the LORD, and for all the vessels of service in the house of the LORD.
14 He gave of gold by weight for things of gold, for all instruments of all manner of service; silver also for all instruments of silver by weight, for all instruments of every kind of service:
15 Even the weight for the candlesticks of gold, and for their lamps of gold, by weight for every candlestick, and for the lamps thereof: and for the candlesticks of silver by weight, both for the candlestick, and also for the lamps thereof, according to the use of every candlestick.
16 And by weight he gave gold for the tables of shewbread, for every table; and likewise silver for the tables of silver:
17 Also pure gold for the fleshhooks, and the bowls, and the cups: and for the golden basons he gave gold by weight for every bason; and likewise silver by weight for every bason of silver:
18 And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out their wings, and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD.
19 All this, said David, the LORD made me understand in writing by his hand upon me, even all the works of this pattern.
20 And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD.
21 And, behold, the courses of the priests and the Levites, even they shall be with thee for all the service of the house of God: and there shall be with thee for all manner of workmanship every willing skilful man, for any manner of service: also the princes and all the people will be wholly at thy commandment.
29 Furthermore David the king said unto all the congregation, Solomon my son, whom alone God hath chosen, is yet young and tender, and the work is great: for the palace is not for man, but for the LORD God.
2 Now I have prepared with all my might for the house of my God the gold for things to be made of gold, and the silver for things of silver, and the brass for things of brass, the iron for things of iron, and wood for things of wood; onyx stones, and stones to be set, glistering stones, and of divers colours, and all manner of precious stones, and marble stones in abundance.
3 Moreover, because I have set my affection to the house of my God, I have of mine own proper good, of gold and silver, which I have given to the house of my God, over and above all that I have prepared for the holy house,
4 Even three thousand talents of gold, of the gold of Ophir, and seven thousand talents of refined silver, to overlay the walls of the houses withal:
5 The gold for things of gold, and the silver for things of silver, and for all manner of work to be made by the hands of artificers. And who then is willing to consecrate his service this day unto the LORD?
6 Then the chief of the fathers and princes of the tribes of Israel, and the captains of thousands and of hundreds, with the rulers of the king's work, offered willingly,
7 And gave for the service of the house of God of gold five thousand talents and ten thousand drams, and of silver ten thousand talents, and of brass eighteen thousand talents, and one hundred thousand talents of iron.
8 And they with whom precious stones were found gave them to the treasure of the house of the LORD, by the hand of Jehiel the Gershonite.
9 Then the people rejoiced, for that they offered willingly, because with perfect heart they offered willingly to the LORD: and David the king also rejoiced with great joy.
10 Wherefore David blessed the LORD before all the congregation: and David said, Blessed be thou, LORD God of Israel our father, for ever and ever.
11 Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.
12 Both riches and honour come of thee, and thou reignest over all; and in thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all.
13 Now therefore, our God, we thank thee, and praise thy glorious name.
14 But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.
15 For we are strangers before thee, and sojourners, as were all our fathers: our days on the earth are as a shadow, and there is none abiding.
16 O LORD our God, all this store that we have prepared to build thee an house for thine holy name cometh of thine hand, and is all thine own.
17 I know also, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of mine heart I have willingly offered all these things: and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, to offer willingly unto thee.
18 O LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this for ever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of thy people, and prepare their heart unto thee:
19 And give unto Solomon my son a perfect heart, to keep thy commandments, thy testimonies, and thy statutes, and to do all these things, and to build the palace, for the which I have made provision.
20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king.
21 And they sacrificed sacrifices unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings unto the LORD, on the morrow after that day, even a thousand bullocks, a thousand rams, and a thousand lambs, with their drink offerings, and sacrifices in abundance for all Israel:
22 And did eat and drink before the LORD on that day with great gladness. And they made Solomon the son of David king the second time, and anointed him unto the LORD to be the chief governor, and Zadok to be priest.
23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.
24 And all the princes, and the mighty men, and all the sons likewise of king David, submitted themselves unto Solomon the king.
25 And the LORD magnified Solomon exceedingly in the sight of all Israel, and bestowed upon him such royal majesty as had not been on any king before him in Israel.
KJV

And, don't forget the EVERLASTING DAVIDIC COVENANT:

Psalm 89:1-52
1 I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.
2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.
3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.
6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?
7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
8 O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?
9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.
10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.
11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.
12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.
13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.
14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.
16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.
17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.
18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
38 But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.
39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.
40 Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin.
41 All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours.
42 Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice.
43 Thou hast also turned the edge of his sword, and hast not made him to stand in the battle.
44 Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground.
45 The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.
46 How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?
47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain?
48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
49 LORD, where are thy former lovingkindnesses, which thou swarest unto David in thy truth?
50 Remember, LORD, the reproach of thy servants; how I do bear in my bosom the reproach of all the mighty people;
51 Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O LORD; wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed.
52 Blessed be the LORD for evermore. Amen, and Amen.
KJV

So, don't write them off so glibly! They are God's ETERNAL PEOPLE!

shturt678 · May 24, 2014

Thank you Retrobyter for your response!

Let's take another look at the 3.5, Rev.11, 2, 3; 12:6 = a period...half period (Rev.12:14) = "time, times, and a half time," Dan.7:25; 12:7 all covering the same time ending at the "1" Parousia, Rev.20:9, 10.

We need a valid start date in light of Lk.21:24, "Gentile seasons." Beginning at Rev.11:2, "tread it down for 42 months" refers to the trampling down of Jerusalem that signifies those of the spirit of the Antichrist worshipping the image of the beast that has arrogated and usurped God's position in their hearts and has been happening in this nation for hundreds of years unknowingly. This symbolical language has been misunderstood and sadly forever perverted. Unless there's an understanding of Lk.21:24 regarding the seasons this passage will remain veiled with the rest.

Old Jack's view

Retrobyter · May 24, 2014

Shalom, Jack.

shturt678 said:
Thank you Retrobyter for your response!

Let's take another look at the 3.5, Rev.11, 2, 3; 12:6 = a period...half period (Rev.12:14) = "time, times, and a half time," Dan.7:25; 12:7 all covering the same time ending at the "1" Parousia, Rev.20:9, 10.

We need a valid start date in light of Lk.21:24, "Gentile seasons." Beginning at Rev.11:2, "tread it down for 42 months" refers to the trampling down of Jerusalem that signifies those of the spirit of the Antichrist worshipping the image of the beast that has arrogated and usurped God's position in their hearts and has been happening in this nation for hundreds of years unknowingly. This symbolical language has been misunderstood and sadly forever perverted. Unless there's an understanding of Lk.21:24 regarding the seasons this passage will remain veiled with the rest.

Old Jack's view

You're welcome, Jack, and I hope to encourage you to read beyond Revelation.

Okay, let's look at Luke 21:24 in detail:

Luke 21:12-28
12 "But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name (authority). 13 This will result in your being witnesses to them. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 All men will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By standing firm you will gain life.

20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. (This happened in 66-67 A.D.) 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. (This is the Roman contribution to the Diaspora.) Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (This covers the next 2,000 years or so.)

25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near." (And, THAT is the parousia! - His second "coming!")
NIV

See, the parousia of Yeshua` has NOT HAPPENED, YET! The times of the Goyim (Gentiles) is a time when Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) is overrun by the Goyim. That has been going on since the Romans took over the Land of Isra'el, calling it "Palestine" after the "Plishtiym" or "Philistines" who also dwelt in the area. Today, the Jews are governing the city, but it is STILL being overrun by Goyim! Even the Old City is still divided between the Jews, the Arabs, the Christians, and the Armenians. Furthermore, the Muslim Arabs STILL have control over the Temple Mount, a place they have NO RIGHT to occupy, regardless their presence since the Dome of the Rock was built in 691 A.D! They are squatters with no legal rights to the Land on which they worship their false god Allah!

Revelation 11 also needs to be better understood.

(Coming next.)

shturt678 · May 25, 2014

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Jack.

You're welcome, Jack, and I hope to encourage you to read beyond Revelation.

Okay, let's look at Luke 21:24 in detail:

Luke 21:12-28
12 "But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name (authority). 13 This will result in your being witnesses to them. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 All men will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By standing firm you will gain life.

20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. (This happened in 66-67 A.D.) 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. (This is the Roman contribution to the Diaspora.) Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (This covers the next 2,000 years or so.)

Click to expand...

Thank you for your response and caring!

Take note, ie, this is the closest we will probably agree to agree: "this covers the next 2,000 years to the "1" future Parousia.

25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near." (And, THAT is the parousia! - His second "coming!")
NIV

Now back to the agreeing to disagree of course, ie, the Godman Jesus and not Yeshua only for openers.

See, the parousia of Yeshua` has NOT HAPPENED, YET! The times of the Goyim (Gentiles) is a time when Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) is overrun by the Goyim. That has been going on since the Romans took over the Land of Isra'el, calling it "Palestine" after the "Plishtiym" or "Philistines" who also dwelt in the area. Today, the Jews are governing the city, but it is STILL being overrun by Goyim! Even the Old City is still divided between the Jews, the Arabs, the Christians, and the Armenians. Furthermore, the Muslim Arabs STILL have control over the Temple Mount, a place they have NO RIGHT to occupy, regardless their presence since the Dome of the Rock was built in 691 A.D! They are squatters with no legal rights to the Land on which they worship their false god Allah!

Revelation 11 also needs to be better understood.

(Coming next.)

Old Jack

Floyd · May 26, 2014

From Retrobyter:
So, don't write them off so glibly! They are God's ETERNAL PEOPLE!

From Floyd.
Yes; and all God's promises to the Patriarchs cannot be fulfilled until Zech.12:10 has happened.

[SIZE=14pt]It is a curious fact that many Christian teachers are not aware of, or find the subject of fallen angels/Nephilim a difficult subject to discuss or teach. Scripture however must be taken as it is written, and not taught in selected sections. One can only imagine that is because of personal problems/blocks, as Scripture is clear that one third of heaven's angels follow Satan! (Rev. 12:4-9.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The above is quoted, as clearly the events of the culmination of Rev. 14:1 are of great importance to the “Shining forth” of Christ Messiah of Israel at that stage of culmination.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]That the exact location is in dispute historically (see Josephus etc), puts even more emphasis on trying to understand the truth re location and meaning.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Most people have heard that “Zion” is linked to Israel, and vaguely think of Jerusalem as meaning the same, which is broadly accurate, but the fact that the Enemy is working constantly to confuse the world on this issue means that the Christian in particular should try to understand what information there is.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]It is a fact that other organisations have adopted the same term of “Zion”, such as Mormons, Rastafari, Arab and Islamic tradition, anti-slavery Organisations to name but a few, shows the appeal of the term![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The following is the prime description in Wikipedia:[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Zion [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](also [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]transliterated[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] Sion, Tzion or Tsion) is a [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]place name[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] often used as a synonym for [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Jerusalem[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt].[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt][1http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zion#cite_note-Longmanp936-0[/SIZE]][2][SIZE=14pt] The word is first found in [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Samuel[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] II, 5:7 dating to c.630-540 BCE. It commonly referred to a specific mountain near Jerusalem ([/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Mount Zion[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]), on which stood a [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Jebusite[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] fortress of the same name that was conquered by [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]David[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and was named the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]City of David[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]. The term Tzion came to designate the area of Jerusalem where the fortress stood, and later became a [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]metonym[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] for [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Solomon[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]'s [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Temple in Jerusalem[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], the city of Jerusalem and generally, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]the World to Come[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]In [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Kabbalah[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] the more esoteric reference is made to Tzion[3]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zion#cite_note-2[/SIZE] being the spiritual point from which reality emerges, located in the [SIZE=14pt]Holy of Holies[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] of the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]First[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Second[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Third Temple[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The most commonly known term is “Zionism”, which refers to 19th Century movement for the migration of Jews worldwide, back to the land of Palestine (Biblical Israel); see the following Wikipedia extract.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The term "Zionism" coined by Austrian [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Nathan Birnbaum[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], was derived from the German rendering of Tzion in his journal Selbstemanzipation (Self Emancipation) in 1890.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt][13]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zion#cite_note-12[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Zionism as a [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]political movement[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]started in 1897[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and supported a [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]'national home'[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]later a state[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], for the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Jewish[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] people in [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Palestine[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]. The Zionist movement declared the re-establishment of its [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]State of Israel[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] in 1948, following the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]. Since then and with varying [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]ideologies[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], Zionists have focused on developing and protecting this state.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]While Zionism is based in part upon [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Torah[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]mitzvot[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] linking the Jewish people to the Biblical land of Israel, the modern movement is largely [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]secular[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]. Indeed, until 1967 the Tzion of the Tanakh (the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Old City of Jerusalem[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]) was not even within the boundaries of Israel (although [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Mount Zion[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] itself, was).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The modern Jewish opinion of the site is shown in the following Wikipedia extract:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Today, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Mount Zion[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] refers to a hill south of the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Old City[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]'s [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Armenian Quarter[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], not to the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Temple Mount[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]. This apparent misidentification dates from the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Middle Ages[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], when [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Christian pilgrims[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] mistook the relatively large, flat summit (the highest point in ancient Jerusalem) for the original site of the Jewish Temple. The [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Dormition Church[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] is located upon the hill currently called Mount Zion.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]However, whatever the various adoptions and annexations of the term by humans and by the Enemy, only what Almighty God’s Plans and actions mean from Scripture have any lasting veracity and effect for human kind, and God’s Plans of Redemption for both his people Israel and His Son’s people, the Body of Christ![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]As has been seen from the extract at the beginning above, the battle is spiritual between the Almighty and Satan; and therefore what God states, Satan will counterfeit, hence Satan’s Mount Hermon (Sirion, or Sion, a Nephilim area Deut.3:9)![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The fact remains that in the culmination of the Great Tribulation (Rev. 7:14), God states that “for Zion’s sake I will not hold my peace” (Isa. 62:1), and also at the time of His vengeance against His, and Israel’s enemies it will be “the year of recompense for the controversy of Zion” (Isa. 34:8, 63:1-6, 2:10-22, Rev. 19:11-21)![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The “controversy” God is referring to, is that which has been under way since He cursed Satan in Gen. 3:14, and promised him that he would be defeated in Gen. 3:15, by none other than the “woman’s seed”! That seed was Mary the mother of Jesus, God’s “only begotten Son”. That Promise, and the ones that followed in Israel’s history; regarding Israel’s glorious future, the Promised Land borders, Jerusalem, and their future standing in the world; are all part of the “controversy” which Satan constantly ferments! All these will be resolved in the final actions of Jehovah Zebaoth in Christ Messiah Jesus: see [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Wrath of God;http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The Wrath of God.htm[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] Note [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The Ottomans were part of the German 'Axis' in the 1914-18 war, and as their southern flank, was crucial to the outcome. Allenby gave his support for the state of Israel together with Winston Churchill, and T.E. Lawrence. It is not generally known that Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia,) was so involved with this effort, as so much of his life is unknown, due in part to many of his roles for the Government. Government Papers released so far show his very active role in trying to establish a 'State of Israel with Churchill and Allenby.' Allenby commented that "without Lawrence's efforts with the Arabs during the 1914-18 war, we could not have won!"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The historian Sir Martin Gilbert stated of Lawrence "he was a serious Zionist."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Thus the 1914-18 war paved the way for the 1948 League of Nation's sanction of the 'Jewish State,' and the events still current leading from the temporal State, to that of the one of prophecy[/SIZE]

shturt678 · May 26, 2014

Floyd said:
From Floyd.
Yes; and all God's promises to the Patriarchs cannot be fulfilled until Zech.12:10 has happened.

[SIZE=14pt]It is a curious fact that many Christian teachers are not aware of, or find the subject of fallen angels/Nephilim a difficult subject to discuss or teach. Scripture however must be taken as it is written, and not taught in selected sections. One can only imagine that is because of personal problems/blocks, as Scripture is clear that one third of heaven's angels follow Satan! (Rev. 12:4-9.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The above is quoted, as clearly the events of the culmination of Rev. 14:1 are of great importance to the “Shining forth” of Christ Messiah of Israel at that stage of culmination.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]That the exact location is in dispute historically (see Josephus etc), puts even more emphasis on trying to understand the truth re location and meaning.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Most people have heard that “Zion” is linked to Israel, and vaguely think of Jerusalem as meaning the same, which is broadly accurate, but the fact that the Enemy is working constantly to confuse the world on this issue means that the Christian in particular should try to understand what information there is.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]It is a fact that other organisations have adopted the same term of “Zion”, such as Mormons, Rastafari, Arab and Islamic tradition, anti-slavery Organisations to name but a few, shows the appeal of the term![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The following is the prime description in Wikipedia:[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Zion [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](also [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]transliterated[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] Sion, Tzion or Tsion) is a [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]place name[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] often used as a synonym for [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Jerusalem[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt].[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt][1][/SIZE][2][SIZE=14pt] The word is first found in [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Samuel[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] II, 5:7 dating to c.630-540 BCE. It commonly referred to a specific mountain near Jerusalem ([/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Mount Zion[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]), on which stood a [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Jebusite[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] fortress of the same name that was conquered by [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]David[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and was named the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]City of David[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]. The term Tzion came to designate the area of Jerusalem where the fortress stood, and later became a [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]metonym[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] for [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Solomon[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]'s [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Temple in Jerusalem[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], the city of Jerusalem and generally, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]the World to Come[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]In [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Kabbalah[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] the more esoteric reference is made to Tzion[3] being the spiritual point from which reality emerges, located in the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Holy of Holies[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] of the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]First[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Second[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Third Temple[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The most commonly known term is “Zionism”, which refers to 19th Century movement for the migration of Jews worldwide, back to the land of Palestine (Biblical Israel); see the following Wikipedia extract.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The term "Zionism" coined by Austrian [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Nathan Birnbaum[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], was derived from the German rendering of Tzion in his journal Selbstemanzipation (Self Emancipation) in 1890.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt][13][/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Zionism as a [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]political movement[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]started in 1897[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and supported a [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]'national home'[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]later a state[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], for the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Jewish[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] people in [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Palestine[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]. The Zionist movement declared the re-establishment of its [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]State of Israel[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] in 1948, following the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]. Since then and with varying [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]ideologies[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], Zionists have focused on developing and protecting this state.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]While Zionism is based in part upon [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Torah[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]mitzvot[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] linking the Jewish people to the Biblical land of Israel, the modern movement is largely [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]secular[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]. Indeed, until 1967 the Tzion of the Tanakh (the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Old City of Jerusalem[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]) was not even within the boundaries of Israel (although [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Mount Zion[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] itself, was).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The modern Jewish opinion of the site is shown in the following Wikipedia extract:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Today, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Mount Zion[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] refers to a hill south of the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Old City[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]'s [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Armenian Quarter[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], not to the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Temple Mount[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]. This apparent misidentification dates from the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Middle Ages[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], when [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Christian pilgrims[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] mistook the relatively large, flat summit (the highest point in ancient Jerusalem) for the original site of the Jewish Temple. The [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Dormition Church[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] is located upon the hill currently called Mount Zion.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]However, whatever the various adoptions and annexations of the term by humans and by the Enemy, only what Almighty God’s Plans and actions mean from Scripture have any lasting veracity and effect for human kind, and God’s Plans of Redemption for both his people Israel and His Son’s people, the Body of Christ![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]As has been seen from the extract at the beginning above, the battle is spiritual between the Almighty and Satan; and therefore what God states, Satan will counterfeit, hence Satan’s Mount Hermon (Sirion, or Sion, a Nephilim area Deut.3:9)![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The fact remains that in the culmination of the Great Tribulation (Rev. 7:14), God states that “for Zion’s sake I will not hold my peace” (Isa. 62:1), and also at the time of His vengeance against His, and Israel’s enemies it will be “the year of recompense for the controversy of Zion” (Isa. 34:8, 63:1-6, 2:10-22, Rev. 19:11-21)![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The “controversy” God is referring to, is that which has been under way since He cursed Satan in Gen. 3:14, and promised him that he would be defeated in Gen. 3:15, by none other than the “woman’s seed”! That seed was Mary the mother of Jesus, God’s “only begotten Son”. That Promise, and the ones that followed in Israel’s history; regarding Israel’s glorious future, the Promised Land borders, Jerusalem, and their future standing in the world; are all part of the “controversy” which Satan constantly ferments! All these will be resolved in the final actions of Jehovah Zebaoth in Christ Messiah Jesus: see [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Wrath of God;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] Note [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The Ottomans were part of the German 'Axis' in the 1914-18 war, and as their southern flank, was crucial to the outcome. Allenby gave his support for the state of Israel together with Winston Churchill, and T.E. Lawrence. It is not generally known that Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia,) was so involved with this effort, as so much of his life is unknown, due in part to many of his roles for the Government. Government Papers released so far show his very active role in trying to establish a 'State of Israel with Churchill and Allenby.' Allenby commented that "without Lawrence's efforts with the Arabs during the 1914-18 war, we could not have won!"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]The historian Sir Martin Gilbert stated of Lawrence "he was a serious Zionist."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Thus the 1914-18 war paved the way for the 1948 League of Nation's sanction of the 'Jewish State,' and the events still current leading from the temporal State, to that of the one of prophecy[/SIZE]

Click to expand...

Thank you for caring!

Make an immediate paradigm shift away from the 1948 bankster's 'Jewish State' to the 'Kingdom of Christ.' Then begin working with the ancient Greek regarding Rev.7:14, "out of the tribulation, the great one" (adjective added by a second article), shifting from the English structure of thoughts, "Great Tribulation" as if it's some horrible time in the future out of touch from us today.

Now you're on the Way,

Old Jack with a compass

Retrobyter · May 27, 2014

Shalom, Jack.

shturt678 said:
Thank you for caring!

Make an immediate paradigm shift away from the 1948 bankster's 'Jewish State' to the 'Kingdom of Christ.' Then begin working with the ancient Greek regarding Rev.7:14, "out of the tribulation, the great one" (adjective added by a second article), shifting from the English structure of thoughts, "Great Tribulation" as if it's some horrible time in the future out of touch from us today.

Now you're on the Way,

Old Jack with a compass

Sorry, bro', but the Kingdom of Christ, or the Kingdom of the Messiah, since Christ = Messiah, hasn't STARTED, YET! It won't start until the Messiah Himself has returned PHYSICALLY and BODILY!

Acts 1:6-12
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven (the sky) as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven (the sky)? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (the sky).
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
KJV

He will be reigning from Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) VERY LITERALLY, just as predicted!

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

You need your own paradigm shift! Come back to the truth of God's Word! Think on Yeshua`s parable:

Luke 19:11-28
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
KJV

Yeshua` will reign until all of His enemies are under His feet and the LAST enemy that is defeated is DEATH!

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

How close is the Seven Year Tribulation?

How close are we to the seven year tribulation?

The seven year tribulation will happen within the next 10 years.

The seven year Tribulation could happen within the next 50 years but will probably not happen within

The seven year Tribulation has already started

The seven year Tribulation will happen, but I don't think it will happen in the next 50 years.

I don't believe in the seven year tribulation.

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