!!!! Warning !!!!....What Many "Minsters" Don't Tell You!

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HammerStone

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I believe the Garden is in Heaven, because it talks in Revelation that the River of Life would flow from the tree of Life.
A little bit off - it flows from the sanctuary/throne and the tree of life is found on either side. That changes the meaning, although done unintentionally I am sure.Revelation 22:1-2And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.I don't like the scifi connotations of the word, but the concept is the best definition that we have; Eden is in a different dimension with the way guarded. We cannot see it or enter into it, but it's there.Since the tree of life is one Jesus, I think it could be in heaven, in that dimension, if you will.
 

RND

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I agree. But now that brought up number of questions. This is interesting..... If Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden in Heaven, and sinned while there - what was serpent doing in Heaven? Were Adam and Eve in flesh while there/before they sinned? The gates are now guarded - why? No one would has access to Heaven anyways.
Um, I think it's an allegorical reference that I'm refering to. I can not speak for Jody. As I mentioned, just as the temple was patterned after the Heavenly Sanctuary I believe the Garden of Eden was a pattern after the Heavenly.In other words, the actual, earthly garden of Eden I believe was taken away, but while here on earth it was a picture of the Heavenly. Very similar to the pattern of the earthly tabernacle and the Heavenly.You follow that Tama?
 

Tama

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Um, I think it's an allegorical reference that I'm refering to. I can not speak for Jody. As I mentioned, just as the temple was patterned after the Heavenly Sanctuary I believe the Garden of Eden was a pattern after the Heavenly.In other words, the actual, earthly garden of Eden I believe was taken away, but while here on earth it was a picture of the Heavenly. Very similar to the pattern of the earthly tabernacle and the Heavenly.You follow that Tama?
Yes, I follow. I will read and research more on this one
smile.gif
 

jodycour

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I think that God moved the tree to Heaven, I think. I don't have any scripture to back that up. But it stands to reason that, that would be the best way to protect it!Another interesting point though that if the garden was in heaven along with adam&eve, they could have sinned while in heaven, because Lucifer sinned while in Heaven.Also the word tells us that satan must beable to travel back& forth to heaven because he is called the accuser of the brethren. He did accuse Job before God.
 

daniel2macarius

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I only am concerned that areana is preaching you cant be saved without water baptism. And that is not true.
Im sorry but i think you are wrong kriss the bible clearly teaches that baptism is needed to be saved here are some bible verses to show this.1.Salvation is through baptism and Faith, not Faith alone.-“He who believes and is baptized will be saved” (Mark 16:16) 2.Through baptism we receive the second birth which is of water and the spirit.-“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5) 3.Baptism washes away sins-“And now why are you waiting?Arise and be baptised, and wash away your sins” (Acts 22:16) 4.In baptism there is forgiveness of sins-“Men and breathren, what shall we do?” Then Peter said to them “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins” (Acts 2:37,38) 5.Baptism is dying with the Lord Jesus Christ and rising with Him-“Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?” (Romans 6:3,4)“Now if we died with Christ, we believe we shall also live with Him” (Romans 6: 8) 6.Another result of baptism is newness of life-“therefore we were buried with Him through baptism in to death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life” (Rom 6:4) 7.In baptism we put on Christ-“For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ” (Galatians 3;27)8.Baptism now saves you-3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,(1 Peter 3:21)[9.Baptism is becoming a member of the church and the church is the body of Christ.there is no salvation apart from the body of Christ-“I now rejoice in my suffering for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the affliction of Christ, for the sake of his body, which is the church. (colossians 1:24)There is also the writing's of people that where taught by Apostles such as St. Ignatius,St. Clement and St. Ploycarp just to name a few,all these early teachers of christianity taught that the baptism of the one,holy,apostolic and orthodox church was needed to be saved,there was only one exception and that was martydom for to be martyred was regarded as a baptism in blood.Water Baptism has been taught from the very beginning of christianity by The Lord himself and His Apostles and all the early church, I think the first time there was ever mention faith only to be saved was in the protestant reformation period and maybe 50-100 years earlier but this still put it around the 16th century ,over 1550 years after the day of pentecost, now i don't know about you but i will believe those that where directly taught by Apostles and given the task to shepard the flock with and after they departed over a fallen roman catholic monk( martin luther) any day.God Blessdaniel2macarius
 

Jordan

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May I ask you, what happen to the thief that died on the cross...Is he not saved for being without water baptism?Luke 23:42-43 - And he (the thief) said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
 

Christina

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Good question Jag or How do you explain soildiers dying on a battlefield that accept Christ at the last min. of their lives ?
 

Wakka

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Good question Jag or How do you explain soildiers dying on a battlefield that accept Christ at the last min. of their lives ?
That's why we need chaplains in the military. And the liberal congress tried to take away their right to pray in the name of Jesus!
 

jodycour

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I agree with the super jag on this one!If you have to be baptist for salvation that means that Jesus blood was not enough!Believing on what Jesus did on the Cross for our sins is the only thing that saves you, because we are not saved by any work that a man can do.
 

Dave...

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Hi everyone. First post. I'm sorry for jumping in so late. I thought that I have a few things to offer to this discussion if it hasn't been already. And if you're interested.Be careful not to confuse the scripture that is speaking of the "one true baptism", the baptism with the Holy Spirit, which places you into the Body of Christ as a result of faith with water baptism, which is only a "type" of the true baptism, a outward expression of an inward truth. To be baptised by Jesus with the Holy Spirit is what it means to be born again.1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,Colossians 2:9-12 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. Romans 6:3-6 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. These all speak of the Spirit baptism. Water baptism is a public testimony. Outwardly symbolic of an inward truth that has already happened. Without making this distinction between the two, the waters (no pun intended) will be muddied and the scripture will only be confusing.Water baptism does not earn salvation. Just as the animal blood sacrifices never took away sin in the OT, but was a reminder of sin and pointed towards Jesus' death on the cross. Water baptism doesn't save but points back to your spiritual baptism into the Body of Christ that came as a result of believing in faith.God blessDave
 

daniel2macarius

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If baptism was not needed for salvation then why does the bible teach it is needed look at these verses to see what i mean.2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.(Acts 2:41)they recieved the word (believed)them where baptized.Faith then baptism.8:37 Then Philip said, If you believe with all your heart, you may. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.8:38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.(Acts 8:37-38)the same faith then baptism,This is done to fulifill all rightousness.9:17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.9:18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.(Acts 9:17-18)These scriptures show that even though Paul recieved faith and a direct commission from The Lord he still needed to be baptized, if baptism was not needed the Lord would not have had so many examples of it in scripture, now if we want to abide in the Word we must do so and not interpret the scripture's incorrectly as those do who say baptism is not needed.God Blessdaniel2macarius
 

jodycour

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No one said that Baptism wasn't important, Baptism is not what saves you, only the Blood of Jesus can save you from your sins!Baptism is what you do to make a public acknowledgement of what Jesus did on the inside of you!
 

Jordan

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If baptism was not needed for salvation then why does the bible teach it is needed look at these verses to see what i mean.2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.(Acts 2:41)they recieved the word (believed)them where baptized.Faith then baptism.8:37 Then Philip said, If you believe with all your heart, you may. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.8:38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.(Acts 8:37-38)the same faith then baptism,This is done to fulifill all rightousness.9:17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.9:18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.(Acts 9:17-18)These scriptures show that even though Paul recieved faith and a direct commission from The Lord he still needed to be baptized, if baptism was not needed the Lord would not have had so many examples of it in scripture, now if we want to abide in the Word we must do so and not interpret the scripture's incorrectly as those do who say baptism is not needed.God Blessdaniel2macarius
Hello daniel2macarius, excuse me, would you llike to please answer these questions.(thesuperjag)
May I ask you, what happen to the thief that died on the cross...Is he not saved for being without water baptism?Luke 23:42-43 - And he (the thief) said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
And this one...(Kriss)
Good question Jagor How do you explain soildiers dying on a battlefield that accept Christ at the last min. of their lives ?
 

Christina

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Amen Jody and JagWe are baptised by the blood shed on the cross Baptism of the heart saved by grace our works are our clothes (of the soul)
 

HammerStone

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Dave...,Jody, and Jag very well said. Baptism is of the soul in the one true water - the same water that will flow from the throne spoken of in Ezekiel and Revelation. This is the real Holy Water and it does much more than quench a physical thirst.Matthew 3:16-17And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.Notice there what descended upon Christ at his baptism. The act of John the Baptist had nothing to do with it other than being an outward sign. John even refused the act initially - he clearly would not do such a thing if this were what had to be done in order for one to be saved.This baptism is of the soul.
 

E Nomine

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I still think it's necessary to get baptized with water in Jesus (or Yahushua) name...because Christ was the first one to do so.
John the Baptist baptised many people before Christ came to him.
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Faithful

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And is apparent that many of you don't speak it, know how to look it up or care to challenge what you have known in the past... I can see this from a teenagegirl, but from a man who is a pastor is it unforgivable...no names being called here... unlike the all of you who are so comfortable with your mainstream lies that you won't even look at the words languages and what they say and mean?
John 16:13 (King James Version) 13.Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.1 John 2:27 (King James Version) 27.But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.This is the true source of all truth in the life of a believer. Ephesians 6:17 (King James Version) 17.And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:In the life of all believers they must one day face the truth of scripture and look to God for the answers in the Spirit.:angel9:
 

E Nomine

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Neither. Only the grace of God.Jesus paved the way for our Salvation but God is who calls us. If He does not call then we won't know the Way.