How close is the Seven Year Tribulation?

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How close are we to the seven year tribulation?


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ATP

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DogLady19 said:
Yes, I know these scriptures... but I don't see them as some precursor to the Tribulation...
Incorrect. Matt 24:4-8 NIV birth pains is specifically about the times we are in now. If you take a look at Matt 24:29-31 NIV, tribulation here refers to birth pains. Why? Because Matt 24:29-31 NIV is a rapture scripture, and scripture states that believers are not appointed to wrath, which is the 3.5 year great tribulation. The term "tribulation" and "great tribulation" are not the same events. These are two different events.

Matt 24:29-31 NIV “Immediately after the tribulation of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
 

DogLady19

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ATP said:
Incorrect. Matt 24:4-8 NIV birth pains is specifically about the times we are in now. If you take a look at Matt 24:29-31 NIV, tribulation here refers to birth pains. Why? Because Matt 24:29-31 NIV is a rapture scripture, and scripture states that believers are not appointed to wrath, which is the 3.5 year great tribulation. The term "tribulation" and "great tribulation are not the same events. These are two different events.

Matt 24:29-31 NIV “Immediately after the tribulation of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Yes, the birth pains are what we are in now... That's exactly what I said... the birth pains ARE the tribulation period... immediately after, well, you already said it from Matt 24.

But I don't think God's people will be spared any tribulation period, whatever you want to call it. We will need to be here to bring salvation to as many people as possible... We will live through the tribulation period (all of it) but God will sustain us as long as we remain faithful...

It will be so bad that If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened Matt 24:22 The days are shortened for His people, but not they are not spared.

Look at this chronology of events:

And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people... Even on my servants... The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls. Joel 2:28-32
 

ATP

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DogLady19 said:
Yes, the birth pains are what we are in now... That's exactly what I said... the birth pains ARE the tribulation period... immediately after, well, you already said it from Matt 24.
But you stated we are in the seven year great trib right now, and that is incorrect.
 

Phoneman777

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toknowthetruth said:
LOL! Yes, that would be a bit funny. However, we're not talking about bosses, or lunch hours, etc. We're talking about Bible prophecy. The way I see it, the fact that there are many different interpretations makes it pretty clear that you can't put things in a box and say, "it can't be this way". The thing is that the different interpretations out there all have what seem to be problems. For me the question is, which one makes the most sense? In my opinion the so called "gap" problem is an insignificant issue. I would say the most important issue is how does the interpretation of an individual passage measure up to the picture that is being painted overall by the related passages?
I see it a bit differently, for the only interpretation that makes sense to me is the Historicist interpretation because it satisfies all the requirements needed for a plausible explanation of prophecy. An unbroken, 490 year period with the 70th week being fulfilled by Jesus Christ, not Antichrist, cannot be excluded based on the Bible, but by opinion only:

  • The 70 Weeks began in 457 B.C. (Ezra 7 and extra-Biblical archaeology confirms this date when Artaxerxes issued his decree, which makes Cyrus' and Darius' decrees pale on comparison)
  • 483 years later, the 69th week ended and the 70th week began in 27 A.D with the baptism of Jesus ("...unto Messiah the Prince...")
  • 3 1/2 years into the 70th week, Jesus was crucified (...in the midst of the week, Messiah shall be cut off...)
  • Because the Jews "cut off" Jesus, the "people of the prince that shall come" (Roman prince Titus and his army) destroyed Jerusalem and the sanctuary.
  • Jesus confirmed a covenant of grace for one week, first in Person and then through His disciples after His ascension (Matthew 26:28 KJV; Hebrews 2:3 KJV)
  • Jesus' death caused "the sacrifice and oblation to cease" when "the veil in the temple was torn in twain from top to bottom" signifying that God was now through with the earthly sanctuary and its sacrificial system, regardless if the Jews continued to sacrifice animals afterward.
This is the only interpretation that doesn't require mental gymnastics to fit the prophecy, whereas the arguments against it require a "gap theory" which then paves the way for the "corroborating evidence" of a "seven years of tribulation" Antichrist, a non-simultaneous Rapture/Second Coming, and non-stop activity on planet Earth while the Bible clearly foretells of an empty earth uninhabited by no man for a time.

I welcome your thoughts on this, friend :)
 
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ATP

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Phoneman777 said:
I see it a bit differently, for the only interpretation that makes sense to me is the Historicist interpretation because it satisfies all the requirements needed for a plausible explanation of prophecy. An unbroken, 490 year period with the 70th week being fulfilled by Jesus Christ, not Antichrist, cannot be excluded based on the Bible, but by opinion only:

  • The 70 Weeks began in 457 B.C. (Ezra 7 and extra-Biblical archaeology confirms this date when Artaxerxes issued his decree, which makes Cyrus' and Darius' decrees pale on comparison)
  • 483 years later, the 69th week ended and the 70th week began in 27 A.D with the baptism of Jesus ("...unto Messiah the Prince...")
  • 3 1/2 years into the 70th week, Jesus was crucified (...in the midst of the week, Messiah shall be cut off...)
  • Because the Jews "cut off" Jesus, the "people of the prince that shall come" (Roman prince Titus and his army) destroyed Jerusalem and the sanctuary.
  • Jesus confirmed a covenant of grace for one week, first in Person and then through His disciples after His ascension (Matthew 26:28 KJV; Hebrews 2:3 KJV)
  • Jesus' death caused "the sacrifice and oblation to cease" when "the veil in the temple was torn in twain from top to bottom" signifying that God was now through with the earthly sanctuary and its sacrificial system, regardless if the Jews continued to sacrifice animals afterward.
This is the only interpretation that doesn't require mental gymnastics to fit the prophecy, whereas the arguments against it require a "gap theory" which then paves the way for the "corroborating evidence" of a "seven years of tribulation" Antichrist, a non-simultaneous Rapture/Second Coming, and non-stop activity on planet Earth while the Bible clearly foretells of an empty earth uninhabited by no man for a time.

I welcome your thoughts on this, friend :)
I agree with this, but you left out one part. I do believe the "He" in bold is referring to the spirit of the antichrist, not the person...

Dan 9:27 NIV He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
 

DogLady19

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ATP said:
But you stated we are in the seven year great trib right now, and that is incorrect.
To be honest, I didn't know the Bible spoke of two tribulations... A little one, the a "Great" one... I thought the whole period was called a great tribulation, and it is called many other things in the Bible besides that. All I know is that the first 3.5 years has been fulfilled by Caligula and Nero. And the Bible verses that speak about birth pains describes the 2nd half of the "tribulation" exactly, and it is what we have been experiencing ever since.

As for Daniel 9:27, The temple was destroyed in 70 AD after Caesar, thinking himself god, and forcing people to worship him as god, put statues of himself in the Holy of Holies. desecrating it permanently...

I'm not sure how people can be so sure about the chronology of events, or the accurate interpretation of symbolism... Isn't that why we are discussing things? Is because we don't really know for sure?
 

Phoneman777

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ATP said:
I agree with this, but you left out one part. I do believe the "He" in bold is referring to the spirit of the antichrist, not the person...

Dan 9:27 NIV He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
Hi ATP, when Daniel says that "he shall confirm the Covenant with many for one week", please consider that:
  • Jesus proclaimed at the Last Supper that the cup represented His "blood of the New Covenant" of grace which was to be "shed for many". (Matthew 26:28 KJV)
  • In prophesying of His First Coming, Malachi in no uncertain terms referred to Jesus Christ - not Antichrist - as "the Messenger of the Covenant". (Malachi 3:1 KJV)
  • Hebrews 2:3 KJV plainly says that Jesus "confirmed" to us the promise of salvation, in Person for 3 1/2 years and then through His disciples for another 3 1/2 years - a full week of confirmation of His Covenant to us.
  • Paul plainly says that Jesus came to "confirm the promises" - the most important promise of all the promises being the New Covenant - made to the fathers (Romans 15:8 KJV)
  • Job rhetorically asks the question of whether the devil (Leviathan) - who is invincible to all human efforts to control him or subdue him because of his kingly might and power over the whole earth - would ever need to "make a covenant with thee? The answer of course is "no". (Job 41:4 KJV)
So, although there exists at least two valid reasons for rejecting the Antichrist as the one who confirms the covenant:
  1. Antichrist/Spirit of Antichrist is nowhere mentioned in Daniel 9:25-27 KJV
  2. Antichrist/Spirit of Antichrist does not make covenants with humans
we see that Jesus Christ fits perfectly as He Who would "confirm the covenant with many for one week."
 
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toknowthetruth

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Phoneman777 said:
I see it a bit differently, for the only interpretation that makes sense to me is the Historicist interpretation because it satisfies all the requirements needed for a plausible explanation of prophecy. An unbroken, 490 year period with the 70th week being fulfilled by Jesus Christ, not Antichrist, cannot be excluded based on the Bible, but by opinion only:

  • The 70 Weeks began in 457 B.C. (Ezra 7 and extra-Biblical archaeology confirms this date when Artaxerxes issued his decree, which makes Cyrus' and Darius' decrees pale on comparison)
  • 483 years later, the 69th week ended and the 70th week began in 27 A.D with the baptism of Jesus ("...unto Messiah the Prince...")
  • 3 1/2 years into the 70th week, Jesus was crucified (...in the midst of the week, Messiah shall be cut off...)
  • Because the Jews "cut off" Jesus, the "people of the prince that shall come" (Roman prince Titus and his army) destroyed Jerusalem and the sanctuary.
  • Jesus confirmed a covenant of grace for one week, first in Person and then through His disciples after His ascension (Matthew 26:28 KJV; Hebrews 2:3 KJV)
  • Jesus' death caused "the sacrifice and oblation to cease" when "the veil in the temple was torn in twain from top to bottom" signifying that God was now through with the earthly sanctuary and its sacrificial system, regardless if the Jews continued to sacrifice animals afterward.
This is the only interpretation that doesn't require mental gymnastics to fit the prophecy, whereas the arguments against it require a "gap theory" which then paves the way for the "corroborating evidence" of a "seven years of tribulation" Antichrist, a non-simultaneous Rapture/Second Coming, and non-stop activity on planet Earth while the Bible clearly foretells of an empty earth uninhabited by no man for a time.

I welcome your thoughts on this, friend :)
LOL! Maybe there's no mental gymnastics there, but I would say there seems to be some mental spaghetti. :) One thing I'm a little unclear about. How does the abomination of desolations fit into this?
 

ATP

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DogLady19 said:
To be honest, I didn't know the Bible spoke of two tribulations... A little one, the a "Great" one... I thought the whole period was called a great tribulation, and it is called many other things in the Bible besides that. All I know is that the first 3.5 years has been fulfilled by Caligula and Nero. And the Bible verses that speak about birth pains describes the 2nd half of the "tribulation" exactly, and it is what we have been experiencing ever since.
TRIBULATION
The term "tribulation" in scripture points to the last 2,000 years.
These are birth pains.
The term "tribulation" simply describes the world getting worse and worse.

GREAT TRIBULATION
The term "great tribulation" in scripture points to God's wrath of 3.5 years in the end times.
This is God's wrath of trumpets and bowls.
The term "great tribulation" simply describes God's wrath being poured out on the earth in the end times, 3.5 years.

DogLady19 said:
As for Daniel 9:27, The temple was destroyed in 70 AD after Caesar, thinking himself god, and forcing people to worship him as god, put statues of himself in the Holy of Holies. desecrating it permanently...
I do believe Dan 9:27 ISV was fulfilled 2,000 years ago. We can clearly see here that it is the spirit of the antichrist in people being fulfilled...

Dan 9:26 ESV And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

Dan 9:27 ISV He will make a binding covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he will suspend both the sacrifice and grain offerings. Destructive people will cause desolation on the pinnacle until it is complete and what has been decreed is poured out on the desolator.'"

DogLady19 said:
I'm not sure how people can be so sure about the chronology of events, or the accurate interpretation of symbolism... Isn't that why we are discussing things? Is because we don't really know for sure?
We can know for sure..

1. Tribulation Birth Pains/Last 2,000 Years and leading up to Great Tribulation - Isa 13:6-8 NIV, Isa 26:16-18 NIV, Matt 24:4-8 NIV, Rom 8:22 NIV, 1 Thess 5:3 NIV, Rev 12:2 NIV

2. The Great Tribulation - Psalm 27:5 NIV, Jer 30:7 NIV, Dan 12:1 NIV, Zeph 1:15 NIV, Matt 24:21-22 NIV, Mark 13:19 NIV, Luke 21:23 NIV, Rev 3:10 NIV, Rev 7:14 NIV

3. The Great Tribulation lasting 3.5 Years - Dan 7:25 NIV, Dan 12:7 NIV, Rev 11:2-3 NIV, Rev 12:6 NIV, Rev 12:14 NIV, Rev 13:5 NIV

4. The Great Tribulation is God's wrath - Isa 13:9 NIV, Isa 13:13 NIV, Isa 26:20 NIV, Dan 8:19 NIV, Nahum 1:2-6 ESV, Zeph 1:15 NIV, Zeph 2:2 NIV, Zeph 3:8 NIV, Matt 3:7 NIV, Luke 21:23 NIV, Rom 1:18 ESV, Rom 2:5 NIV, Rom 2:8 NIV, Rom 3:5 NIV, Rom 4:15 NIV, Rom 5:9 NIV, Rom 9:22 NIV, Rom 12:19-20 NIV, 1 Thess 1:10 ESV, Heb 4:3 ESV, Rev 6:16-17 NIV, Rev 15:1 NIV, Rev 15:7 NIV, Rev 16:1 NIV, Rev 16:19 NIV, Rev 19:15 NIV

5. However, believers are not appointed to wrath in the Great Tribulation - Dan 12:1 NIV, Matt 24:21-22 NIV, John 3:36 NIV, Rom 5:9 NIV, Rom 9:22 NIV, 1 Thess 1:9-10 NIV, 1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV, Heb 4:3 ESV, Rev 3:10 NIV

Phoneman777 said:
Hi ATP, when Daniel says that "he shall confirm the Covenant with many for one week", please consider that:
  • Jesus proclaimed at the Last Supper that the cup represented His "blood of the New Covenant" of grace which was to be "shed for many". (Matthew 26:28 KJV)
  • In prophesying of His First Coming, Malachi in no uncertain terms referred to Jesus Christ - not Antichrist - as "the Messenger of the Covenant". (Malachi 3:1 KJV)
  • Hebrews 2:3 KJV plainly says that Jesus "confirmed" to us the promise of salvation, in Person for 3 1/2 years and then through His disciples for another 3 1/2 years - a full week of confirmation of His Covenant to us.
  • Paul plainly says that Jesus came to "confirm the promises" - the most important promise of all the promises being the New Covenant - made to the fathers (Romans 15:8 KJV)
  • Job rhetorically asks the question of whether the devil (Leviathan) - who is invincible to all human efforts to control him or subdue him because of his kingly might and power over the whole earth - would ever need to "make a covenant with thee? The answer of course is "no". (Job 41:4 KJV)
So, although there exists at least two valid reasons for rejecting the Antichrist as the one who confirms the covenant:
  1. Antichrist/Spirit of Antichrist is nowhere mentioned in Daniel 9:25-27 KJV
  2. Antichrist/Spirit of Antichrist does not make covenants with humans
we see that Jesus Christ fits perfectly as He Who would "confirm the covenant with many for one week."
I'm not referring to the "He" in the beginning. Yes, the "He" in the beginning is Jesus. I agree. I said the "He" that is in bold, the latter half of the verse. I do believe this "He" that sets up the AOD is the (spirit) of the antichrist in people and has already been fulfilled 2,000 years ago. What do you think..

Dan 9:27 NIV He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
 

DogLady19

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ATP said:
I do believe Dan 9:27 ISV was fulfilled 2,000 years ago. We can clearly see here that it is the spirit of the antichrist in people being fulfilled...

Dan 9:26 ESV And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

Dan 9:27 ISV He will make a binding covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he will suspend both the sacrifice and grain offerings. Destructive people will cause desolation on the pinnacle until it is complete and what has been decreed is poured out on the desolator.'"

4. The Great Tribulation is God's wrath - Isa 13:9 NIV, Isa 13:13 NIV, Isa 26:20 NIV, Dan 8:19 NIV, Nahum 1:2-6 ESV, Zeph 1:15 NIV, Zeph 2:2 NIV, Zeph 3:8 NIV, Matt 3:7 NIV, Luke 21:23 NIV, Rom 1:18 ESV, Rom 2:5 NIV, Rom 2:8 NIV, Rom 3:5 NIV, Rom 4:15 NIV, Rom 5:9 NIV, Rom 9:22 NIV, Rom 12:19-20 NIV, 1 Thess 1:10 ESV, Heb 4:3 ESV, Rev 6:16-17 NIV, Rev 15:1 NIV, Rev 15:7 NIV, Rev 16:1 NIV, Rev 16:19 NIV, Rev 19:15 NIV

5. However, believers are not appointed to wrath in the Great Tribulation - Dan 12:1 NIV, Matt 24:21-22 NIV, John 3:36 NIV, Rom 5:9 NIV, Rom 9:22 NIV, 1 Thess 1:9-10 NIV, 1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV, Heb 4:3 ESV, Rev 3:10 NIV
A tribulation is just that - a time of suffering and persecution... wrath is punishment. A tribulation is not wrath. Persecution is not punishment.

God's wrath will happen when Jesus and His army come down and destroy the earth after a period of great persecution and suffering. Sinners are not persecuted, saints are.

Daniel 9:26-27:
THE Anointed One will be put to death. The Anointed One is Jesus, and He was put to death.

The city and sanctuary were destroyed in 70AD as Jesus foretold. Where the temple once was is now a temple for other gods, including someone who is worshipped as a powerful prophet. WE are the temple of God now. This part of the prophecy is fulfilled.

The end will come LIKE a flood, not BY a flood.

We are at continuous war. Evil destruction is a matter of foreign policy for the world's powers.

Desolation means to be destroyed until nothing is left... to become desolate.
 

Phoneman777

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toknowthetruth said:
LOL! Maybe there's no mental gymnastics there, but I would say there seems to be some mental spaghetti. :) One thing I'm a little unclear about. How does the abomination of desolations fit into this?
I love spaghetti, but make mine vegetarian, please lol

The "abomination that makes desolate" the "holy city" had to do with what happened when the Roman army came to flatten Jerusalem. The ground outside the city walls was for some distance considered "holy" and when the pagan Romans surrounded the city and planted their Sun God standards in the ground, it was a desecration, as well as the horrific bloodshed that took place inside the temple when it was destroyed.

In Ezekiel's vision of chapter 8, God says that the most abominable of all the abominations Ezekiel saw was when the priests turned their backs on the Lord as they worshiped the Sun. Much end time prophetic application here.
 
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ATP

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DogLady19 said:
God's wrath will happen when Jesus and His army come down and destroy the earth after a period of great persecution and suffering. Sinners are not persecuted, saints are.
Persecution and God's wrath are two totally different events. Christians being persecuted for the last 2,000 years is "tribulation birth pains". God's trumpets and bowls in the future is "the great tribulation of God's wrath." You keep mixing up the two. It's not difficult to understand Dog19. I gave you all the scriptures, it's up to you to study them.
 

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Joshua David said:
I was just curious to know what people thought as to how close we were to the seven year tribulation? I just wanted to say, I didn't really want to turn this thread into a does a seven year tribulation exist vs does not exist thread. If you don't believe in it, great, vote you don't believe in it and move on, or start another thread on why you don't believe in it.

Joshua David
Get close? I don't think most people have a clue what we're headed for, certainly not Christians that hold to the excess of interpretation known as rapture & tribulation ideology. The trouble of the last days is upon us now and we are in it up to our collective necks, but calculations are inept at best and heresy at worst.

The tribulation interpretation primarily employs scripture quotes from the book of Daniel. Revelation is quoted too, but not in as much excess as Daniel. All of it is a misquotation and an out of context attempt to justify the biggest lie ever perpetuated upon American Christians since the justification of negro slavery.

Prior to the 1850's rapture dogma did not exist. It was a formulation of John Nelson Darby in his larger attempt to organize Biblical events and prophecy into a larger context he called and renamed dispensationalism. Google his name if you care to learn the truth. His book became wildly popular as a result of his lecture circuit and one of his closest adherents was Cyrus Scofield, who incorporated the heretical references into his reference Bible. It is not widely known among Christians in America that Darby was also the consort of witches. A man is known by the company he keeps, except where those who've fastened upon his lies are concerned. Americans would rather believe escapist ideology than deal with facts and truth. Rapture and its corresponding tribulation theory, which was also formulated to better explain the evacuation idea, are nothing less than an attempt to prove God a liar and to discredit the work of faith in the lives of believers. Both are actions of the devil itself. Consider the words of Jesus.

"My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one."
- Jesus quoted by John 17:15

The misinterpretations of Daniel are due to lack of understanding of Hebrew law as stated in Leviticus as well as Jewish custom. Jews are legendary for their manipulations of God's law while Christians are famous for writing their own.

In the book of Leviticus are listed God's laws. Some are moral laws, some are dietary laws(1), some are religious laws and some are social and agricultural laws. The latter defines the use of a span of years as a week of years. At the end of the sixth year, the land would be allowed to go fallow. Certain social observances were to be altered as well. The seventh year was called the sabbath year or shemitah (pronounced shmee-tah, emphasis on the first syllable). A sequence of seven weeks of years (49) would end with the beginning of an observance of a fiftieth year called the Year of Jubilee. Slaves were to be set free during these sabbath, shemitah years, real property was to be returned to its owner, loans were to be retired and so on. The problem was that the Hebrews never observed these laws. God therefore judged them for it.

Daniel, writing from Babylon, referred to the loss of the calculation of the years of shemitah and jubilee when he wrote of a missing year. Jesus also talked about it. When asked when He would return He said that no one would know the day or the hour. Many people have tried to calculate future events such as the second coming of Jesus Christ. The attempt to calculate the tribulation is one of them. The problem is that such calculations, if they are to be accurate, MUST be based upon the beginning of observance of shemitah and jubilee years. No one knows when that date happened. It had been lost by the time of Daniel and was common knowledge of the Jews of Jesus' time. If a man knew the actual times and days of God's ordained festivals, then that man would be able to accurately calculate TO THE DAY and possibly the HOUR the second coming of Christ. Not even the best Jewish scholars of our own time know that bit of information. When Jesus said that no one would know the day or hour of His coming, Our Lord was not making a philosophical statement, He was making a mathematical statement. You can't estimate the count of days if you don't know when the first day happened.

The reader should note that the Gregorian calendar, which measures the elapsed time of a year as one orbit of earth around the sun, was not adopted into general use until the year 1582 - well into the 2nd millennium. Prior to that time most nations used the lunar calendar, which counted the days of one orbit of the moon around the earth as a year. Islamic nations still do. Ancient Hebrews used BOTH measurements for their festivals and records of history. Consider this when you try to second guess the mind of God.

Consider also that the tribulation idea, as well as the rapture heresy, are strictly American inventions. Neither existed as an organized dogma prior to the mid-19th century. No other denomination of Christianity in any other country recognizes this nonsense as truth. The tribulation is a futile attempt to calculate the second coming of Christ, while the rapture theory is as American as Black slavery, the US Federal policy of genocide of Native Americans and the invention of the atomic bomb.

Those who honestly and sincerely seek the truth will discover this when they research John Nelson Darby and the history of the rapture doctrine. They will not lose their faith in Christ or His second coming, but they will be a little closer to cutting through the weeds of some of the false doctrines of American Protestantism (others include the Prosperity Gospel and the Name It and Claim It heresy).

Seek ye first the Kingdom of God - and leave the doctrines of demons in the dust of history where they belong.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

(1) Dietary laws are still being twisted today. If you own a high end electric range purchased in recent years, it will probably have a Jewish setting. Consult your owner's manual or your authorized appliance dealer for details.
 

DogLady19

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ATP said:
Persecution and God's wrath are two totally different events. Christians being persecuted for the last 2,000 years is "tribulation birth pains". God's trumpets and bowls in the future is "the great tribulation of God's wrath." You keep mixing up the two. It's not difficult to understand Dog19. I gave you all the scriptures, it's up to you to study them.
No. I keep saying just that... perhaps you misread what I wrote... You and I are in complete agreement on this.

Persecution and God's wrath are two totally different events.

God's wrath will happen when Jesus and His army come down and destroy the earth AFTER a period of great persecution and suffering. Sinners are not persecuted, saints are.

First: TRIBULATION
Next: WRATH

It's not difficult to understand ATP.
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
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Homer Ga.
Joshua David said:
I was just curious to know what people thought as to how close we were to the seven year tribulation? I just wanted to say, I didn't really want to turn this thread into a does a seven year tribulation exist vs does not exist thread. If you don't believe in it, great, vote you don't believe in it and move on, or start another thread on why you don't believe in it.

Joshua David
I think the Tribulation will begin within 20 years
 

toknowthetruth

New Member
May 11, 2015
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Phoneman777 said:
I love spaghetti, but make mine vegetarian, please lol

The "abomination that makes desolate" the "holy city" had to do with what happened when the Roman army came to flatten Jerusalem. The ground outside the city walls was for some distance considered "holy" and when the pagan Romans surrounded the city and planted their Sun God standards in the ground, it was a desecration, as well as the horrific bloodshed that took place inside the temple when it was destroyed.

In Ezekiel's vision of chapter 8, God says that the most abominable of all the abominations Ezekiel saw was when the priests turned their backs on the Lord as they worshiped the Sun. Much end time prophetic application here.
Oh, spaghetti is one of my favorites as well. Maybe it's the Italian in me. ^_^

Concerning the abomination of desolations that's one way to interpret it. But the way I see it both it and the image of the beast are one and the same. And it seems quite evident to me from scripture that this is what signals the beginning of the great trib which lasts for 3.5 years (1260 days, 42 months, a time and times and half a time). This is the specific time given to the AC to make war against the saints and overcome them in Rev 13:7 or wear them out as it's put in Dan 7:25.