A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

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Kermos

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One cannot answer a question with a question.

This is just another example of you not answering questions, joking to avoid the uncomfortable subject of self-examination (why you believe what you believe).
Before Abraham was, I Am. Jesus said that, in obvious reference to the OT
where God said, tell them I AM sent you.

The Jews tried to stone Him because they said, You, a mere man, claim to be God.

Thomas said to Jesus, my Lord and my God. Jesus didn’t correct Him.

In Revelation, they worship the Lamb. Yet God says only He is to be worshipped.

Titus says to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

If you’ve seen Me, you have seen God. Jesus said that.

And now Father, glorify Me with the glory I had with You before the world existed.

Hebrews 1 says the whole universe was made through Jesus.

Another says everything we see was created through Him and nothing we see was created except through Him.

John says He is the word and the light and says He was with God in the beginning and that He WAS God.

I could go on and on. So just as with the verses I gave about no Eternal Torment, you have to take ALL of the words of God and make them fit.

When the Word became flesh, He had to rely on God just as we do, and some of what He said was as a human and some of what He said was as God. But He came from heaven and was in heaven with God before the world even existed.
I wish it was funny....but changing the nature of God is a serious business.

When you said..."I know from John that Jesus is God and is the Creator. He states it so unmistakably that it puzzles me when someone can't see it."
I can see why you believe that, but Jesus is not the Creator.....he was the assistant for sure because Jehovah created all things "through" his son...IOW he used his son to fabricate the raw materials that were brought into existence by God's great power.
Everything in heaven and on earth came from God through his son, by means of his holy spirit.

If you do something "through" the agency of another person, you become their representative. Only Jehovah is the Creator.

If you read John 1:1-3 in Greek, it doesn't say what is translated into English.....
"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos. 2 He houtos was eimi in en the beginning archē with pros · ho God theos. 3 All pas things were created ginomai by dia him autos, and kai apart chōris from him autos not oude a single thing heis was created ginomai that hos has been created ginomai."

In verses 1 & 2 you can see that that "ho theos" is used for Jehovah, but not for ho logos, who is just called "theos" without the definite article. That in Greek means just a god-like personage, or one with divine power or authority. The Logos was not "the God" but "a god".
Theos means any kind of god....even satan is called "theos".

The book of John was not written with a trinity in mind because, in the first century there was no trinity except in pagan religions.
The Jews did not believe in a triune god (and still don't) and never once did Jesus claimed equality with his Father.
There's no difference between man serving Jesus Christ and man serving God- Jesus is God.

The reason I'm not a trinitarian is that I believe that the Father/Son/Spirit are 1 God via unity rather than via a shared substance as stated in the Trinitarian Creeds (most notably the Athanasian Creed).

YHWH IS GOD, AND GOD IS ONE

"Hear, O Israel! YHWH is our God, YHWH is one! You shall love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might" (Deuteronomy 6:4-5)

"I am YHWH your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:2-3)

MESSIAH IS GOD

"For a Child will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6)

"Who is the King of glory? YHWH strong and mighty, YHWH mighty in battle" (Psalm 24:8)

APOSTLE JOHN WROTE OF MESSIAH (CHRIST)

"Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:30-31)

"My Lord and my God" (John 20:28)

CONCLUSION

@Jane_Doe22, "the Father and I are One" (John 10:30) says Lord Jesus; on the other hand, Lord Jesus did not say "the Father and I are united" then leave it at that.

@Aunty Jane, the Apostle John declares the Apostle John's belief that Lord Jesus "was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).

@Aunty Jane, Lord Jesus is the everlasting Word of God (John 1:1-3, John 1:14).

@Wrangler, you ineloquently avoided that which @stunnedbygrace posted (quoted above).

Lord Jesus, Truly God and Truly Man (thread on this site)
 

stunnedbygrace

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YHWH IS GOD, AND GOD IS ONE

"Hear, O Israel! YHWH is our God, YHWH is one! You shall love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might" (Deuteronomy 6:4-5)

"I am YHWH your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:2-3)

MESSIAH IS GOD

"For a Child will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6)

"Who is the King of glory? YHWH strong and mighty, YHWH mighty in battle" (Psalm 24:8)

APOSTLE JOHN WROTE OF MESSIAH (CHRIST)

"Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:30-31)

"My Lord and my God" (John 20:28)

CONCLUSION

@Jane_Doe22, "the Father and I are One" (John 10:30) says Lord Jesus; on the other hand, Lord Jesus did not say "the Father and I are united" then leave it at that.

@Aunty Jane, the Apostle John declares the Apostle John's belief that Lord Jesus "was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).

@Aunty Jane, Lord Jesus is the everlasting Word of God (John 1:1-3, John 1:14).

@Wrangler, you ineloquently avoided that which @stunnedbygrace posted (quoted above).

Lord Jesus, Truly God and Truly Man (thread on this site)

Aunty is trying like we all are to fit it all together. We should keep working on it. :)
 
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Aunty Jane

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My failing when discussing the issue of the nature of God and His Son, is being utterly unable to consider the possibility of God bringing forth an only begotten Son that has a different nature to His Father.
Human children are children. A cows calf grows to be a cow. But still bovine in nature. The Son of God? A Son in the highest sense can only be of the same nature as His Father. What kind of being is the Father? How can His Son not be the same?
According to the meaning of the Greek word "theos" a personage can be "divine" (of divine origin or given divine authorization) and not be deity....."theos" is any "god-like" one....someone invested with power. Even satan is called "theos" in the Greek scriptures as well as human judges in Israel because their power or authority was from God. Jesus had both. He was a powerful spirit being before being delivered as a human child to save mankind. But being in the Father's place as a deity, is something that Jesus would never ever have contemplated....it would have been unthinkable! He is and always has been the faithful "servant" of his Father. (Acts 4:27) Jesus' whole purpose is dedicated to the service of his God and to serve as the savior of mankind.

English is such an imprecise language in many instances, and this is, I believe, where satan can have a field day. He is not altering scripture per se, but altering perceptions by inept translation, geared to deceive and lead the faithful astray.

I wish you could see that there is a line you can cross without committing blasphemy or breaking the first Commandment.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Ha... while not so intended, re-reading it now, I guess my question was loaded.

I was joking with you. I took you to mean more…that a lot of the time, we have to be less absolutely certain that we have all truth understood. The renewing of our minds is ongoing. Line upon line, precept upon precept.
 
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amadeus

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I was joking with you. I took you to mean more…that a lot of the time, we have to be less absolutely certain that we have all truth understood. The renewing of our minds is ongoing.
LOL, no problem! Learning to laugh at myself was something I needed to do a very long time ago. Consider Isaac! [Isaac means "he laughs"]

Often, I am very naive when it comes to jokes or joking. Others make jokes and/or laugh while I sit back and scratch my head unable to understand what there is to laugh about...

What is I believe it that ATs exist. God does not believe things by faith. He knows the Absolute Truth of everything. How much like Him are we now?

Men, that is you and me and all the believers, live by faith as that is how God set things up. In the very beginning of our walk with God it is by faith [as described in Heb 11:1], but as we grow toward God [if we do?] some ATs are mixed in... But...mostly we are unable to accurately draw a line in ourselves to show what part of what we hold consists of ATs. So long as our vision is even in part as through a glass darkly, some of that AT is incomplete or missing...
 

Aunty Jane

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How do you suppose the Great Awakening took such a hold on 19th century America at a time bereft of the internet, radio, and television? That said, when Jesus commissioned His disciples to go from village to village and town to town He wasn't forbidding the use of other means by which to share the good news of the kingdom. Otherwise you wouldn't be here right?
No one said God was forbidding other means of communication regarding the Christian message......but the times dictated the means.
So how important was the message about the Kingdom? How many people needed to hear it? Jesus said it had to be preached "in all the inhabited earth as a witness to ALL the nations" before "the end", where the present system of things will be cleared of all opposers of God's incoming Kingdom. A completely new administration will take over....foretold by Daniel 500 years before Christ walked the earth. (Daniel 2:44) Daniel's prophesies are all about our day...."the time of the end". This is when 'abundant knowledge' will give people no excuses.

In the early days Jehovah's Witnesses used many different ways to get the message to the people. There were conventions held where the public were invited to hear Bible discourses. (we had those till C19 came along.)

We have always used the apostolic method of door to door preaching because, when there is an emergency situation, where people need to be informed of an impending disaster, emergency services personnel will go door to door so that they don't miss anyone. They can't count on the media to deliver such important life saving information.

Face to face is always the best means of communication because we can rely on all the senses to evaluate what we hear (or read) and see....some of today's communications lack those advantages, like body language or tone of voice. Its too easy to read something into what someone has typed and take offense where none was intended. I have had it happen to me often. :(

We use what is available in our current circumstances....but by and large, when the churches knew that they should preach because it was a command from Jesus to take his message out to "the most distant part of the earth", they instead made up excuses as to why they didn't have to, or didn't need to.

2 Timothy 4:2...Paul said....
"preach the word. Be prepared when it is opportune or inopportune; confront, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching." (Mounce Interlinear)

This is addressed to all Christians.....we are not to hide the light of truth, even when people do not want to hear it. Once informed, they can no longer plead ignorance. God is observing all responses to the Kingdom message.....and only when he sees a receptive heart (not one inclined to make excuses) will he draw that person to his son. (John 6:44, 65)

The truth is the truth...not what we want to believe.
 

Aunty Jane

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"the Father and I are One" (John 10:30) says Lord Jesus; on the other hand, Lord Jesus did not say "the Father and I are united" then leave it at that.
John 17:22...Jesus said in prayer to his God and Father...
"The glory you gave to me I have given to them, that they may be one just as we are one."
Being "one" is not indicating deity, or else Jesus' disciples would all be "God" too.

the Apostle John declares the Apostle John's belief that Lord Jesus "was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).
Yes, the Jews were trying to pin a charge of blasphemy on Jesus in order to have an excuse to kill him.
It was they who insinuated that even "calling God his own Father" was blasphemous.....but never did they ever hear him say that he was God, or in any way equal to his Father....otherwise the charge would have been upheld and Jesus would have died a guilty man under Jewish Law.....he had to die an an innocent man.

Lord Jesus is the everlasting Word of God (John 1:1-3, John 1:14).
What does "LOGOS" mean in Greek?
According to Strongs, it means...

"of speech
  1. a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
  2. what someone has said
    1. a word
    2. the sayings of God
    3. decree, mandate or order
    4. of the moral precepts given by God
    5. Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
    6. what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim."
So the "Word" of God can mean one who speaks for God, like a representative declaring the sayings of God, or it can mean the words themselves via prophets or other spokesmen....or in written form.

"The Word" who came in the form of the man Jesus the Christ, was God's foremost spokesman. He was "with" his God and Father from "the beginning" according to John 1:1-2, but what "beginning" was John speaking about? The Eternal God had no "beginning"...but Jesus as God's "only begotten son" most certainly did. (Revelation 3:14, Colossians 1:15)

In verse 14 it says that "the Word became flesh" and the "Word" is called "theos" but in Greek it does not mean "ho theos", which identified the One True God of the Jews. Look up John 1:1 in the Greek Interlinear and see that there are two "gods" (in the Greek meaning of the word, but horribly mistranslated in English) Only one is called "ho theos" the other is just "theos". These two are both called "theos" which in Greek means...
"a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities."

IOW if the divine name had still been in use in the scriptures instead of the ambiguous title "kyrios" (Lord) then no mistranslation could have occurred.
It would have said.....
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh, and the Word was divine." (or "a god")

Trinitarian bias all through Bible translation history has altered the meanings of many Greek words and twisted the truth so badly that the devil has you worshipping the wrong "god".

Jesus never once claimed to be God Almighty.....so there is no trinity in the Bible....not a single solitary statement that it was ever a first century Christian teaching. The Jews had no trinity and Jesus was Jewish. To a Jew that would be blasphemy.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Trinitarian bias all through Bible translation history has altered the meanings of many Greek words and twisted the truth so badly that the devil has you worshipping the wrong "god".

Ah cmon, really? I don’t see a trinity either. I do see a binity. You say I’m worshiping the wrong God but it hasn’t hurt me. He still gave me the down payment of His Spirit and He blesses me with so much. I think you’ve gone very much too far by saying the devil has a very big percentage of us praying to the wrong God. Does any one perceive God correctly? Does an ant perceive an elephant correctly? Yeah, you’ve gone too far here. You are a very certain ant!
 
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Jane_Doe22

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@Jane_Doe22, "the Father and I are One" (John 10:30) says Lord Jesus; on the other hand, Lord Jesus did not say "the Father and I are united" then leave it at that.
I 100% agree that the Father and the Son are one. And that Christ desires us to be one with Him to: "John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."

Again, I see that as being through one heart/mind/will/etc.

Rather than metaphysically: "that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. " -The Athanasian Creed.
 

Kermos

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* Not to distract the thread but I prefer thought translations, which are NOT paraphrases. A 'paraphrase translation' is a pejorative misnomer. Literal translations awkwardly translate each word. Thought translations smoothly translate whole sentences and even combine verses in the way we speak today.

Bible textual translation comes in ONLY one of two forms:
  1. faithful to the original language.
  2. unfaithful to the original language

Your preferred Contemporary English Version (CEV) of Colossians 3:22-25 contains these unfaithful translations:
  • the word "try" (v.22) is absent from the Greek thus the CEV converts the Greek's declarative command of "Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord" into a more of an interrogative inquiry dependent upon the man/slave with "Slaves, you must always obey your earthly masters. Try to please them at all times, and not just when you think they are watching. Honor the Lord and serve your masters with your whole heart".
  • the word "willing" (v.23) is absent from the Greek thus the CEV converts the Greek's declarative command of "Whatever you might do, work from the soul, as to the Lord and not to men" into a more of an interrogative inquiry dependent upon the man/slave with "Do your work willingly, as though you were serving the Lord himself, and not just your earthly master".
  • the word "Christ" was moved while the word "he" replaces "Lord Christ" (v.24) per the Greek thus the CEV misrepresents the Greek's indicative of "knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. You serve the Lord Christ" into a clause that fails to convey the Lord Christ as God when verses 22 to 25 taken as a whole with "In fact, the Lord Christ is the one you are really serving, and you know that he will reward you".
  • the words "people" and "Christ" ans "favorites" (v.25) are absent from the Greek thus the CEV misrepresents the Greek's indicative of "For the one doing wrong will be repaid for what he has done wrong; and there is no partiality" into a clause that fails to convey pointedly individual wrong with "But Christ has no favorites! He will punish evil people, just as they deserve".

The CEV inaccurately translates from the Greek, so the CEV changes the Holy Spirit inspired writing of Paul.
 

Aunty Jane

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Aunty is trying like we all are to fit it all together. We should keep working on it. :)
Jesus said in his discourse about the 'last days' of the present system of things, before his return to judge the world, that he would appoint a a faithful slave to "feed" his household of fellow slaves.....he said Who then is the faithful and wise slave, whom the master has put in charge of his household, to give the other slaves their food at the proper time?" (Matthew 24:45 NET)

Interesting that Jesus would frame this as a question, indicating that this "slave" might not be so easy to identify among all those claiming to teach the truth....
But we are all in some way, going to be invited by "him" to feed at his table...this food is dispensed "at the proper time"....meaning that what Jesus' slaves need to know will be given to them when they need to know it....it was to be a progressive revelation of the Father's purpose concerning them.

So who is that "slave" today? That is the 64 million dollar question...no one will come to God's son without an invitation from his Father, (John 6:44, 65) and only then will that 'slave' be revealed to them. They will take nourishment and grow to maturity if they keep feeding exclusively at the right table. The "slave" is not just one man, but a composite body to whom Jesus gives the responsibility to carry on his work. Like the 12 apostles, he never relies on just one person....but all had to speak and act in agreement. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

According to 1 Corinthians 10:21, there are only two tables at which spiritual food is dispensed....one is from God and the other has similar looking food, but it is poisoned by the devil.....the sower of the "weeds".

How can we tell the difference? The truth is we cannot, and God will not prevent us from feeding at the wrong table. It is because hearts are being fed, not bellies.....the heart is what God reads and he will then draw us to the right table....any other table the "food" previously eaten, will come to look and taste like junk....but some people love junk food and they can gorge themselves all they wish....it is their choice.

Only at the end will we know if we have the right qualifications to live under the rule of God's kingdom. Jesus will let us all know. (Matthew 7:21-23) No excuses will be acceptable.
 

Kermos

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1. Did Jesus call Himself "I AM"? Absolutely
2. Did the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob call Himself "I AM"? Absolutely
3. Does Scripture show that the same person who appeared to Moses in the burning bush was "the Angel of the LORD"? Absolutely

Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb. And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed... (Exodus 3:1,2)

In that entire chapter this very special "angel" is called:
1. "God"
2. "the God of thy father"
4. "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob"
5. "the LORD"
6. "the God of your fathers"
7. "I AM THAT I AM"
8. "I AM"

There are other passages in the OT where the Angel of the LORD is treated as God and worshipped. And Jesus told the Jews "Before Abraham was I AM" (John 8:58) and "if ye believe not that I AM [he], ye shall die in your sins." (John 8:24) Note: "he" is in italics and should not have been inserted, while "AM" should have been capitalized as shown below.
International Standard Version
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you'll die in your sins."
Jubilee Bible 2000
Therefore I said unto you that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye do not believe that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.

Angel means messenger.

Christ/Messiah means anointed One.

Christ is I AM (John 8:58), and Christ is God (John 20:28).

In Exodus 3:1-2, we find angel not Messiah in "the angel of the LORD appeared unto him".

The kings of old had messengers, such as eunuchs, who spoke on behalf of those kings, and an example of this is In the book of Esther, we find Ahasuerus, king of the Medes and the Persians, as a remote picture of King Jesus. Ahasuerus' burning anger against those that do not obey the command of king, in this case, the king's wife as evidenced by her being cast out (Esther 1:15). All people that entered the inner court without being summoned by the king would be executed, unless the king holds out his scepter (Esther 4:11). The king punishes people that oppose him as well as people that oppose his loved ones (Esther 7:9). Also, we find a picture of angels (messengers) in the eunuchs, that the eunuchs humbly go in and out of the presence of the king; as an aside, the eunuchs were the means that people could request an audience with the king.

A messenger (angel) of YHWH appeared to Moses, and said messenger (angel) spoke on behalf of God, so said messenger's (angel's) message has the authority of God.

Now, I'm not finding a single place in your post that has the authority of the Word of God that states the angel was the Messiah.

So, I quote your writing to @Wrangler back to you, "you wish to play games with Scripture. A very dangerous activity.".
 

Enoch111

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Angel means messenger.
You chose to ignore the truth about the Angel of the LORD with that remark. That's your prerogative, but those who choose to be wilfully blind are then blinded by God.

WHO -- OTHER THAN GOD -- COULD MAKE SUCH A PROMISE?
And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. (Gen 16:10)

WHO -- OTHER THAN GOD -- COULD BLESS ABRAHAM?
11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. (Genesis 22)
 

APAK

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That's just a great point! The trinitarian claim is John 1:1 reveals more about GE 1:1. Even more significantly, they attach some kind of duality to each Gospel, such as these Gospel's testify to Jesus humanity and this one testifies to Jesus's divinity. Huh?

The Gospels testify to the life and ministry of Jesus. The 'beginning' of every Gospel, including John 1:1, is the beginning of Jesus life and ministry. Let's take a look at the beloved John 1 through the eyes of a non-trinitarian and see how it flows.
In the beginning (of Jesus' life and ministry) the Word (of God) already existed. NLT (Emphasis added)

In the beginning of Jesus ministry, the word of God already existed. See Deuteronomy 18:15-18. (I recently learned when Jesus told what is the most important and 2nd most important commands, he was quoting Deuteronomy 6:4 and Leviticus 19:18. Even his last words on the cross are from Ps 22.)

The Word (of God) was with God,
and the Word (of God) was God.
2 It or that or those words existed in the beginning with God.
3 God created everything through him (or it or that),
and nothing was created except through him (or it or that). NLT (Emphasis added)


The only way God could create everything 'through him' (or it or that) is that (God's words or) Jesus is NOT God. This is normal language usage. God (or God's word) is the subject of John 1:1-3, not Jesus. The object of the sentence of 1:3 is Jesus (or it or that word), implying God created Jesus (or words) before everything else, which is exactly what GE 1:1 states.

What about 1:1 saying the word was God? This is figurative use of language. Words are WHAT's - an attribute of a being or a person. Words are not WHO's, their use does not create a new being or person.

To use this figurative prologue of John to support Jesus is God is reaching beyond what the text says. Worse, is this claim goes against 1,000's of verses that God is alone, the Father and many verses in John. For instance, 20:31 explicitly states nothing John wrote was to support the claim that Jesus is God but everything John wrote was to prove something else; namely, that Jesus is the son of God.

This begs the question of why do trinitarians rely so passionately on 1:1 to make their case? Because there is no explicit teaching in Scripture of their claim, they have to rely on figurative verses being interpreted the way they prefer and rule out other valid interpretations without just cause.

Without going through all the verses in John that undermine the claim that verse 1 means Jesus is God, two in particular should be pointed out. As @stunnedbygrace stated yesterday, ALL of God's words have to be understood - not just take a figurative John 1:1 and demand it can only mean one thing.

In 17:3 Jesus says his Father is the only true God. And in 20:17, the resurrected Jesus says he has not yet gone to his God. Why would Jesus refer to his God, in his unitarian nature, if Jesus were part of a tri-une God? It makes no sense from a language usage perspective. (Of course, trinitarians come up with silly rationalizations and appeals to duality, imposing their doctrine onto unitarian text, expanding beyond what the word of God actually says.) Jesus' God, who is the Father, is the only God. Also, 20:17 is explicit that Jesus equates "Father" with "God, in his unitarian nature."

14 So the Word became human

NOTE: Another figurative expression. It does not say, as trinitarians allege, that God became flesh. Rather, the word (of God) became flesh - in Jesus' ministry - as the word of God became flesh with every single prophet that came before. In short, @Aunty Jane said is well, Jesus is divine but not a deity. A simple and foundational distinction - consistent with the 1C.

18 No one has seen God at any time. The only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made Him known. (MEV)

A final nail in the trinitarian coffin of John's prologue is v 18. NOTE: No reference to the non-existent 3rd person, this verse reveals the dynamic duo, God and his Son, and sets up the rest of John's Gospel. It reinforces the fact that no one has ever seen God but people have seen Jesus. Again, this necessarily means Jesus is not and cannot be God.

The only way the son can be at the Father's right side (God's side) is that Jesus cannot be God. Ps 110:1, Ephesians 1:20, Hebrews 10:12. This is because one cannot be on one's own right side.
You have a mouthful here....
I would though be really sure of what it means for someone even Christ, to be divine.

I would just point out that Christ had divinity residing within him as the divine 'word/logos,' AND Spirit upon his anointing, after his baptism, although I would not go as far as saying he himself was divine. Today he still shares this same divine word as the Word/logos of God today.

We as believers possess a part of the Spirit of God, the spirit of truth, that is the same as Christ's spirit, and we do partake of this divine spirit or power today, although we are not actually divine because of it. And of course we never have the divine word of God as Christ does today.
Technically only YHWH is the source of divinity as the one true Deity. He shares his divinity, although he does not share his well source, only his spigot to his family.

The touchstone scripture for all Trinitarians is John 1:1-18. And they ignore not just the local context of it all, they also continue to ignore the wider level contextual view too. All they usually 'see' is John 1:1-2 and 14. And when they get fixated on these verses it's like them reading a running marquee or rolling news line at the bottom of the TV screen.....as they read it as "......John 1:1-2 says Jesus is God.........therefore John 1:14 says Jesus is God......therefore John 1:1-2 says Jesus is God......." Circular logic at its best!

Most of your points make sense in a large degree ..on fire again at the start of the New Year...Bless you
 
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Kermos

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John 17:22...Jesus said in prayer to his God and Father...
"The glory you gave to me I have given to them, that they may be one just as we are one."
Being "one" is not indicating deity, or else Jesus' disciples would all be "God" too.

You err about the linguistics of John 17:22.

Jesus has Christ's disciples being one as in one assembly or family or flock because Christ is talking about mere persons with "that they may be one" thus including Peter and John and Matthew and Mary and Martha and so on.

The Christ'a words of 'we are one" includes the Father and the Son.

Yes, the Jews were trying to pin a charge of blasphemy on Jesus in order to have an excuse to kill him.
It was they who insinuated that even "calling God his own Father" was blasphemous.....but never did they ever hear him say that he was God, or in any way equal to his Father....otherwise the charge would have been upheld and Jesus would have died a guilty man under Jewish Law.....he had to die an an innocent man.

The Jewish leaders did think Jesus made Himself out to be equal with God.

The Apostle John flat out declares the Apostle John's belief that Lord Jesus "was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).

What does "LOGOS" mean in Greek?
According to Strongs, it means...

"of speech
a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
what someone has said
a word
the sayings of God
decree, mandate or order
of the moral precepts given by God
Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim."
So the "Word" of God can mean one who speaks for God, like a representative declaring the sayings of God, or it can mean the words themselves via prophets or other spokesmen....or in written form.

"The Word" who came in the form of the man Jesus the Christ, was God's foremost spokesman. He was "with" his God and Father from "the beginning" according to John 1:1-2, but what "beginning" was John speaking about? The Eternal God had no "beginning"...but Jesus as God's "only begotten son" most certainly did. (Revelation 3:14, Colossians 1:15)

In verse 14 it says that "the Word became flesh" and the "Word" is called "theos" but in Greek it does not mean "ho theos", which identified the One True God of the Jews. Look up John 1:1 in the Greek Interlinear and see that there are two "gods" (in the Greek meaning of the word, but horribly mistranslated in English) Only one is called "ho theos" the other is just "theos". These two are both called "theos" which in Greek means...
"a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities."

IOW if the divine name had still been in use in the scriptures instead of the ambiguous title "kyrios" (Lord) then no mistranslation could have occurred.
It would have said.....
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh, and the Word was divine." (or "a god")

Trinitarian bias all through Bible translation history has altered the meanings of many Greek words and twisted the truth so badly that the devil has you worshipping the wrong "god".

Jesus never once claimed to be God Almighty.....so there is no trinity in the Bible....not a single solitary statement that it was ever a first century Christian teaching. The Jews had no trinity and Jesus was Jewish. To a Jew that would be blasphemy.

"The Word became flesh" (John 1:14).

Behold, @Aunty Jane, the Word of God became truly man. See Lord Jesus, Truly God and Truly Man (thread on this site).

In linguistics, we can use a noun without a definite article or an indefinite article for qualitative indications.

The Greek word "kyrios" (Lord) does not appear in John 1:1, so you think you know more than the Holy Spirit inspired Apostle John by way of your somehow adding kyrios into John 1:1 near the bottom of your post.

You have two gods because you wrote 'the Word was divine." (or "a god")' near the bottom of your post about Johm 1:1. See Deuteronomy 6:4-5 quoted in my post to which you replied.

The Word of God, Jesus Christ, is the action of God for "all things came into being through" the Word, "and apart from" the Word "nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3). "Let there be light" (Genesis 1:3).

Lord Jesus is the everlasting Word of God (John 1:1-3, John 1:14).
 

Kermos

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I 100% agree that the Father and the Son are one. And that Christ desires us to be one with Him to: "John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."

Again, I see that as being through one heart/mind/will/etc.

Rather than metaphysically: "that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. " -The Athanasian Creed.

The Apostle Thomas confessed "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

To be clear, I am not talking about the Athanasian Creed, rather, I am talking about the precious Word of God.

Lord Jesus says "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30).

Now, you wrote that the Father and the Son have one heart, not two hearts, but one heart.

You also wrote that the Father and the Son have one mind, not two minds, but one mind.

The one heart, the one mind, means that the person of the Father is everlasting God and the person of the Word is everlasting God. The Father and the Word are One, including One everlasting God.
 

Kermos

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You chose to ignore the truth about the Angel of the LORD with that remark. That's your prerogative, but those who choose to be wilfully blind are then blinded by God.

WHO -- OTHER THAN GOD -- COULD MAKE SUCH A PROMISE?
And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. (Gen 16:10)

WHO -- OTHER THAN GOD -- COULD BLESS ABRAHAM?
11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, 16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. (Genesis 22)

Why didn't you quote those passages the first time you replied?

Well, none indicate Messiah instead of angel.

God has God's angel speak on God's behalf with the full backing of God, including Exodus 3:1-2, Genesis 16:10, and Genesis 22:11-18).

When you change "angel" to "Messiah", then you wickedly add to scripture and subtract from scripture.
 

Jane_Doe22

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The Apostle Thomas confessed "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

To be clear, I am not talking about the Athanasian Creed, rather, I am talking about the precious Word of God.

Lord Jesus says "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30).

Now, you wrote that the Father and the Son have one heart, not two hearts, but one heart.

You also wrote that the Father and the Son have one mind, not two minds, but one mind.

The one heart, the one mind, means that the person of the Father is everlasting God and the person of the Word is everlasting God. The Father and the Word are One, including One everlasting God.
Let me explain again what I believe, and then you can clarify where you believe differently.

I believe the Father, Son (Jesus Christ), and Spirit are all ONE God. 3 different persons, 1 God. They are unified in one heart, one mind, one will, etc.

I do not believe that they are one via metaphysical means as stated in the Athanasiain Creed, and hence do not agree with the creedal definition of "the trinity".

I do not believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are all 1 person. I don't believe that it's Christ saying about himself "this is my beloved son".
 
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