Kermos
Well-Known Member
One cannot answer a question with a question.
This is just another example of you not answering questions, joking to avoid the uncomfortable subject of self-examination (why you believe what you believe).
Before Abraham was, I Am. Jesus said that, in obvious reference to the OT
where God said, tell them I AM sent you.
The Jews tried to stone Him because they said, You, a mere man, claim to be God.
Thomas said to Jesus, my Lord and my God. Jesus didn’t correct Him.
In Revelation, they worship the Lamb. Yet God says only He is to be worshipped.
Titus says to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
If you’ve seen Me, you have seen God. Jesus said that.
And now Father, glorify Me with the glory I had with You before the world existed.
Hebrews 1 says the whole universe was made through Jesus.
Another says everything we see was created through Him and nothing we see was created except through Him.
John says He is the word and the light and says He was with God in the beginning and that He WAS God.
I could go on and on. So just as with the verses I gave about no Eternal Torment, you have to take ALL of the words of God and make them fit.
When the Word became flesh, He had to rely on God just as we do, and some of what He said was as a human and some of what He said was as God. But He came from heaven and was in heaven with God before the world even existed.
I wish it was funny....but changing the nature of God is a serious business.
When you said..."I know from John that Jesus is God and is the Creator. He states it so unmistakably that it puzzles me when someone can't see it."
I can see why you believe that, but Jesus is not the Creator.....he was the assistant for sure because Jehovah created all things "through" his son...IOW he used his son to fabricate the raw materials that were brought into existence by God's great power.
Everything in heaven and on earth came from God through his son, by means of his holy spirit.
If you do something "through" the agency of another person, you become their representative. Only Jehovah is the Creator.
If you read John 1:1-3 in Greek, it doesn't say what is translated into English.....
"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos. 2 He houtos was eimi in en the beginning archē with pros · ho God theos. 3 All pas things were created ginomai by dia him autos, and kai apart chōris from him autos not oude a single thing heis was created ginomai that hos has been created ginomai."
In verses 1 & 2 you can see that that "ho theos" is used for Jehovah, but not for ho logos, who is just called "theos" without the definite article. That in Greek means just a god-like personage, or one with divine power or authority. The Logos was not "the God" but "a god".
Theos means any kind of god....even satan is called "theos".
The book of John was not written with a trinity in mind because, in the first century there was no trinity except in pagan religions.
The Jews did not believe in a triune god (and still don't) and never once did Jesus claimed equality with his Father.
There's no difference between man serving Jesus Christ and man serving God- Jesus is God.
The reason I'm not a trinitarian is that I believe that the Father/Son/Spirit are 1 God via unity rather than via a shared substance as stated in the Trinitarian Creeds (most notably the Athanasian Creed).
YHWH IS GOD, AND GOD IS ONE
"Hear, O Israel! YHWH is our God, YHWH is one! You shall love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might" (Deuteronomy 6:4-5)
"I am YHWH your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:2-3)
MESSIAH IS GOD
"For a Child will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6)
"Who is the King of glory? YHWH strong and mighty, YHWH mighty in battle" (Psalm 24:8)
APOSTLE JOHN WROTE OF MESSIAH (CHRIST)
"Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:30-31)
"My Lord and my God" (John 20:28)
CONCLUSION
@Jane_Doe22, "the Father and I are One" (John 10:30) says Lord Jesus; on the other hand, Lord Jesus did not say "the Father and I are united" then leave it at that.
@Aunty Jane, the Apostle John declares the Apostle John's belief that Lord Jesus "was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).
@Aunty Jane, Lord Jesus is the everlasting Word of God (John 1:1-3, John 1:14).
@Wrangler, you ineloquently avoided that which @stunnedbygrace posted (quoted above).
Lord Jesus, Truly God and Truly Man (thread on this site)