Revelation Chapter 9 - The Destruction of Physical Jerusalem, the Temple, the Law - End of an age!

Jay Ross · Jan 1, 2022

Thank you @APAK for highlighting the fact in Joel that people like the wide open spaces where God does not exist rather than walk within His Kingdom Earth. Joel laments the fact that the promised visitation of the iniquities of the fathers upon their children and their children's children will occur during the third and the fourth age of the existence of Israel and the Roman Empire came to scatter the Israelites to the four corners of the earth and to destroy God's Temple in Jerusalem as a sign that God had turned his back on them all.

However, we are also told in the scriptures that after the end of the visitation of the father's iniquities on their children runs it full course in time, that God will once again turn towards them and incline His ear to their cries.

Sadly you are talking about God's turning away from Israel because of their continual idolatrous behaviour which historically occurred in 70 AD. However, Rev. 9 is not dealing with this time period and Joel does not justify your particular understanding of Rev. 9.

I am not trying to derail your thread, since you are not dealing with the contextual thrust of Rev. 9, but rather another topic altogether.

Have a good day now.

Enoch111 · Jan 1, 2022

APAK said:
Chapter 9 The Siege and Destruction of Jerusalem Verses 1-11 – The Roman Army Siege of Jerusalem - April to September 70 AD

APAK, where did you come up with this FANTASY? Revelation 9 is all about future judgments, not past history, and definitely not anything about the Roman seige of Jerusalem!

Davy said:
The falseness you learned from men about Rev.9 just gave me the impetus to show them what God's Word really... says.

Davy is right about your false ideas, but then Davy also has some seriously flawed ideas.

APAK · Jan 1, 2022

Joel 1:6...

Verse 6: For a foreign nation or people have come up upon my land, a great and mighty army of fierce warriors, strong and numerous, in swarms of countless myriads, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion and bare their cheek fangs as a lioness. They are as lions with teeth (bows and arrows) (Psalms 57:4).

These are shown to be the description as in Rev 9 of the Roman Legions who are seemingly countless or of a very large number swarming like locusts (Rev 9:3,16; Jeremiah 46:23; Judges 6:5; Joel 1:4)

------------------...........

APAK · Jan 1, 2022

Davy said:
Been wanting to show what the Book of Joel is about for brethren for a long time now. The falseness you learned from men about Rev.9 just gave me the impetus to show them what God's Word really... says.

You know Davy, I have not learned to really decipher these prophetic scriptures from other folks at all. If you know a bit about me already, you then know I do not go so easily with the 'crowd' and group think. I sit down and study it all by myself.

And I'm not a Preterist either. If it seems to matches in areas then so be it. It is a co-incidence.

It is great to share ideas as this area of study for me is a work in progress for sure....I go slow and steady and readjust when I see issues along the way....I do pick up ideas from folks along the way and it helps to either corroborate my ideas or cause me to dig deeper....and even correct them.

I would not be too quick to consider my thoughts false just because they may not be main stream.
Back about 40 years ago I was drawn to the a premillennialist popular view as a 100% futuristic view of nearly all major prophecy, and then I found there were too major assumptions being made. I left that popular crowd and not until recently have I delved back into these studies from scratch, without any biases, as humanly possible.

Blessings, APAK

APAK · Jan 1, 2022

Enoch111 said:
APAK, where did you come up with this FANTASY? Revelation 9 is all about future judgments, not past history, and definitely not anything about the Roman seige of Jerusalem!
Davy is right about your false ideas, but then Davy also has some seriously flawed ideas.

The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple then holds no Biblical merit or mention? I wonder what Christ would say about that? He was presiding over the entire thing...

Enoch111 · Jan 1, 2022

APAK said:
The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple then holds no Biblical merit or mention?

Not if you MISAPPLY Scripture. The proper Scriptures are found elsewhere.
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (Mt 24:1,2)

And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down... And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh... And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (Lk 21:5,6,20,24)

In 30 AD Christ (who is God) could foresee the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem which would occur in 70 AD. God gave Israel a period of 40 years of probation, since the number 40 represents probation. Had all Israel repented and believe on Christ, disaster might have been averted.

Davy · Jan 1, 2022

Enoch111 said:
APAK, where did you come up with this FANTASY? Revelation 9 is all about future judgments, not past history, and definitely not anything about the Roman seige of Jerusalem!
... but then Davy also has some seriously flawed ideas.

He is of course is speaking of how I am against men's Pre-tribulational Rapture theory, which Enoch111 is on board with. But I still have hope for him that will change.

APAK · Jan 1, 2022

Enoch111 said:
Not if you MISAPPLY Scripture. The proper Scriptures are found elsewhere.
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (Mt 24:1,2)

And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down... And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh... And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (Lk 21:5,6,20,24)

In 30 AD Christ (who is God) could foresee the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem which would occur in 70 AD. God gave Israel a period of 40 years of probation, since the number 40 represents probation. Had all Israel repented and believe on Christ, disaster might have been averted.

And then these areas of scripture you have quoted are also described in the OT and the Book of Revelation. And because of their rejection of Christ as a whole nation/or people, the final blow and destruction came upon them with over 1 million dead...and this age became extinct and dead. No more physical Temples, for the presence of God, and no more physical Jerusalem as the city of God. Since that time of 70 AD after that end of severe Tribulation, it became transformed into the new age of the Kingdom, and continues on this way today, for a while at least.

APAK · Jan 1, 2022

Jay Ross said:
Thank you @APAK for highlighting the fact in Joel that people like the wide open spaces where God does not exist rather than walk within His Kingdom Earth. Joel laments the fact that the promised visitation of the iniquities of the fathers upon their children and their children's children will occur during the third and the fourth age of the existence of Israel and the Roman Empire came to scatter the Israelites to the four corners of the earth and to destroy God's Temple in Jerusalem as a sign that God had turned his back on them all.

However, we are also told in the scriptures that after the end of the visitation of the father's iniquities on their children runs it full course in time, that God will once again turn towards them and incline His ear to their cries.

Sadly you are talking about God's turning away from Israel because of their continual idolatrous behaviour which historically occurred in 70 AD. However, Rev. 9 is not delating with this time period and Joel does not justify your particular understanding of Rev. 9.

I am not trying to derail your thread, since you are not dealing with the contextual thrust of Rev. 9, but rather another topic altogether.

Have a good day now.

To be fair Jay you did address my thread directly. So I ask two questions of you: Why or what is your basis for saying that Joel does not support Rev 9? And then what future event or events does Joel support if not AT LEAST Rev 9?
Can you direct me to some scripture and their interpretations in answering these questions?

Thanks

Earburner · Jan 1, 2022

APAK said:
In A.D. 69, Rome faced what may have been its darkest hour. That year warring generals pitted the empire’s legions against one another threatening to collapse the empire and ultimately resulting in the deaths of three self-proclaimed Caesars. Torn apart by civil war, Rome temporarily ceased its advance into Judea. Then order arose out of chaos as control of the Empire fell securely into the hands of the former general of the Judean War—Vespasian.

There is no global swarming of locusts in the future at the very end of days. These locusts came up, upon the land, a local region or area of land, the land of Judea after 68 AD.

It was typical for real insects of locusts to appear and swarm in the land of Judea annually, between May and September, a period of five months. These ‘locusts’ were allowed to attack relentlessly for five months and strip off all the green stuff. These locusts and their cruel and merciless instinctive habits symbolize as the fitting image of the real Roman army as it lay siege for 5 months and eventually totally destroyed Jerusalem.

The Jewish historian, Josephus, as well as Roman historians, recorded that the Roman armies laid a siege upon Jerusalem in 70 AD which lasted for five months. This siege began in mid-April of that year and lasted until late August/ early September, the very same period when locusts would normally appear in Judea.

Hi APAK, I have thoroughly read your post, and I do understand your historical focus.
I also tend to lean towards the historical view, but not as severe as you.
You have done a superb job in outlining the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70AD, but as to anything past that is concerning symbolism for locusts, I perceive that it is a bit fabricated, and has the appearance of force fitting minor Roman events to make it work.
If there be anything of an aftermath of 70AD, Daniel 9:26 called it: "....and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Because Revelation is highly symbolic, it can draw much speculation and conjecture from all readers, including myself. However, just because so many have speculated etc., that is not to say that the Lord Himself doesn't reveal His truth about it. He surely does know that there is much competition clamoring to be heard.

Because of Isaiah 55:8-9, I have understood that God speaks in the past, the present and the future, all at the same time.

In Revelation, we have Jesus speaking to us through John, from His Heavenly realm of eternity. Though he speaks in the language of John's day, 2000+ years later, we find that we are not too far removed from it. But, it's not our language that is the problem, it's our limited human understanding, trying to ascend to His divine understanding. Hence the need for the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit.
Without Him, no prophecy of His shall be understood, unless He Himself reveals it to us.
John.8[23] And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world
John.3[12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

So then, as for our self will, and all the religious persuasion that can be had, it shall always be by only one process, by which we might know anything from His eternity, and that is "by my spirit".
Zech.4[6] Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying,
Not by might [self will], nor by power [religious persuasion], but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

But, from all of that, we still have a problem. His knowledge is in His control and not ours. Therefore all the prying, contriving and studying on our part, doesn't cause Him to impart any of His knowledge to us in the least bit, until we abide by His instruction.
of Prov.3[5] Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

So my point is, in Revelation 9, there are two prophecies.
1. Revelation 9:1-11
2. Revelation 9:12-21
Of the first prophecy, you have attempted to reveal that it is all fulfilled in the past, and nothing of it shall be future. However, the second prophecy is still in the future, which shows my understanding, that the Lord speaks in the present, past and future, all at the same time.
But then again, the first prophecy of the two in Revelation 9 could also be in the present, as in RIGHT NOW, IN THIS VERY MOMENT. Could you hazard a guess of what it might be?
And if the first IS what you have guessed or surmised, then the second prophecy shall be manifested right behind it, for surely THAT has NOT yet come to pass!
.

Waiting on him · Jan 1, 2022

APAK said:
The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple then holds no Biblical merit or mention? I wonder what Christ would say about that? He was presiding over the entire thing...

He would say,,,,, I’ve already rebuilt it.

APAK · Jan 1, 2022

Earburner said:
Hi APAK, I have thoroughly read your post, and I do understand your historical focus.
I also tend to lean towards the historical view, but not as severe as you.
You have done a superb job in outlining the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70AD, but as to anything past that is concerning symbolism for locusts, I perceive that it is a bit fabricated, and has the appearance of force fitting minor Roman events to make it work.
If there be anything of an aftermath of 70AD, Daniel 9:26 called it: "....and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Because Revelation is highly symbolic, it can draw much speculation and conjecture from all readers, including myself. However, just because so many have speculated etc., that is not to say that the Lord Himself doesn't reveal His truth about it. He surely does know that there is much competition clamoring to be heard.

Because of Isaiah 55:8-9, I have understood that God speaks in the past, the present and the future, all at the same time.

In Revelation, we have Jesus speaking to us through John, from His Heavenly realm of eternity. Though he speaks in the language of John's day, 2000+ years later, we find that we are not too far removed from it. But, it's not our language that is the problem, it's our limited human understanding, trying to ascend to His divine understanding. Hence the need for the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit.
Without Him, no prophecy of His shall be understood, unless He Himself reveals it to us.
John.8[23] And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world
John.3[12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

So then, as for our self will, and all the religious persuasion that can be had, it shall always be by only one process, by which we might know anything from His eternity, and that is "by my spirit".
Zech.4[6] Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying,
Not by might [self will], nor by power [religious persuasion], but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

But, from all of that, we still have a problem. His knowledge is in His control and not ours. Therefore all the prying, contriving and studying on our part, doesn't cause Him to impart any of His knowledge to us in the least bit, until we abide by His instruction.
of Prov.3[5] Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

So my point is, in Revelation 9, there are two prophecies.
1. Revelation 9:1-11
2. Revelation 9:12-21
Of the first prophecy, you have attempted to reveal that it is all fulfilled in the past, and nothing of it shall be future. However, the second prophecy is still in the future, which shows my understanding, that the Lord speaks in the present, past and future, all at the same time.
But then again, the first prophecy of the two in Revelation 9 could also be in the present, as in RIGHT NOW, IN THIS VERY MOMENT. Could you hazard a guess of what it might be?
And if the first IS what you have guessed or surmised, then the second prophecy shall be manifested right behind it, for surely THAT has NOT yet come to pass!
.

I really appreciate your post, and thank you. You make me relook this work of mine again, and it's great, believe me. I see your post as a teacher suggesting a different or new view. It will be my immediate homework. Viewing 2 prophecies in Rev 9 instead of one continuous one.
It would seem you have been a careful student in prophetic scripture....

Bless you EB

Thank you again..I will provide you with some feedback in good time

Truth7t7 · Jan 1, 2022

APAK said:
You know Davy, I have not learned to really decipher these prophetic scriptures from other folks at all. If you know a bit about me already, you then know I do not go so easily with the 'crowd' and group think. I sit down and study it all by myself.

And I'm not a Preterist either. If it seems to matches in areas then so be it. It is a co-incidence.

It is great to share ideas as this area of study for me is a work in progress for sure....I go slow and steady and readjust when I see issues along the way....I do pick up ideas from folks along the way and it helps to either corroborate my ideas or cause me to dig deeper....and even correct them.

I would not be too quick to consider my thoughts false just because they may not be main stream.
Back about 40 years ago I was drawn to the a premillennialist popular view as a 100% futuristic view of nearly all major prophecy, and then I found there were too major assumptions being made. I left that popular crowd and not until recently have I delved back into these studies from scratch, without any biases, as humanly possible.

Blessings, APAK

Do you believe any of the three items below have been fulfilled, if yes when?

1. Matthew 24:15 Daniel's Abomination?
2. Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation?
3. Matthew 24:29-31 The Second Coming?

Waiting on him · Jan 1, 2022

Joel 1:6 KJV
[6] For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.
Upon reading this the Spirit speaks to me of a nation of apostate Jews already within Israel’s gates.

Devouring widows houses like a lion that seeks to devour.

Waiting on him · Jan 1, 2022

Only consider to the very last chapter of Joel He pleads……. Repent!

Enoch111 · Jan 1, 2022

APAK said:
No more physical Temples, for the presence of God, and no more physical Jerusalem as the city of God.

Not so. See the book of Ezekiel as well as many other prophetic books.

Let's take Jerusalem as an example.
Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously. (Isa 24:23) Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken. (Isa 33:20) Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. (Isa 52:1)
Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. (Isa 52:9)

Jerusalem and Israel will be redeemed and restored after the Second Coming of Christ, and a fourth temple will be built in Jerusalem. Whatever God says will surely come to pass.

Earburner · Jan 1, 2022

APAK said:
I really appreciate your post, and thank you. You make me relook this work of mine again, and it's great, believe me. I see your post as a teacher suggesting a different or new view. It will be my immediate homework. Viewing 2 prophecies in Rev 9 instead of one continuous one.
It would seem you have been a careful student in prophetic scripture....

Bless you EB

Thank you again..I will provide you with some feedback in good time

Thank you for your sincere response. I perceive that you have a keen eye for observing that which may or not be a manifestation of the Lord's prophecies in Revelation.

It's not so much that we can see events that have come to pass, or project into the future of how events might come to pass, but to correctly describe events being manifested in the present, truly is a revelation of the Lord in real time. That is a spiritual value that most christians can't handle, and as a result often go into denial, seeking other options that are acceptable to them.

Concerning the two prophecies of Rev. 9,
I am looking forward to what the Lord will reveal through you, by His Spirit.

May God Bless as you seek His thoughts and ways,
Earburner

Earburner · Jan 1, 2022

APAK said:
You know Davy, I have not learned to really decipher these prophetic scriptures from other folks at all. If you know a bit about me already, you then know I do not go so easily with the 'crowd' and group think. I sit down and study it all by myself.

And I'm not a Preterist either. If it seems to matches in areas then so be it. It is a co-incidence.

It is great to share ideas as this area of study for me is a work in progress for sure....I go slow and steady and readjust when I see issues along the way....I do pick up ideas from folks along the way and it helps to either corroborate my ideas or cause me to dig deeper....and even correct them.

I would not be too quick to consider my thoughts false just because they may not be main stream.
Back about 40 years ago I was drawn to the a premillennialist popular view as a 100% futuristic view of nearly all major prophecy, and then I found there were too major assumptions being made. I left that popular crowd and not until recently have I delved back into these studies from scratch, without any biases, as humanly possible.

Blessings, APAK

Praise be to God! I relate to all you have said!
I am eager to tell you briefly that in 1975, through a dream/vision of the book of 1 Timothy, I became a born again Christian shortly after. I had no previous christian training or knowledge of God or the Bible.

I too fell into the pre-millennial fantasy of beliefs. 20 years later, being discourage and frustrated by the confusion it brought to me, I literally cried to God for help, and threw myself on His mercy, trusting in only Him to guide me, as He said He would. John 16:13.

The evidence of my trust in Him was that in faith, I promised to God, that I would not lean unto my own understanding, or that of others, but trust only in him for my guidance to know Him and the power of His resurrection, even if it should be contrary to the popular belief systems of "church-ianity".
That is not to say that I don't hear or listen to others, I just do not study the works of their commentary and accept them at face value, just because they call themselves a Christian, having a title before or after their name.

Jesus said some of most deep and valuable words concerning who the tares really are, and when you discover what He really is saying, you will never think of it so lightly ever again. In fact you will use it often for discernment of who is who.

Here it is, KJV only:
Luke.21[8] And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, [that] I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

How often have you heard those words of Christ misconstrued by "church-ianity", by putting the spin on it of people following false messiahs, who come in their own name. Really? That's NOT what that scripture is saying! We are to beware of those who are approved of by men, preaching from the pulpits!

Jay Ross · Jan 1, 2022

APAK said:
Joel 1:6...

Verse 6: For a foreign nation or people have come up upon my land, a great and mighty army of fierce warriors, strong and numerous, in swarms of countless myriads, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion and bare their cheek fangs as a lioness. They are as lions with teeth (bows and arrows) (Psalms 57:4).

These are shown to be the description as in Rev 9 of the Roman Legions who are seemingly countless or of a very large number swarming like locusts (Rev 9:3,16; Jeremiah 46:23; Judges 6:5; Joel 1:4)

------------------...........

Jer. 46:23 is speaking of the Babylonians. But reading a few verses further down, Jer. 43:27-28 Jeremiah is speaking of the present day nations, where the Nation of Israel has been scattered among and the Rev. 16:12-16 gathering of the Kings of the earth at Armageddon in our near future.

Joel 3:1-3 also speaks of the gathering of the nations where Israel was scattered into and the nations where they are today will be judged.

Isiah 24:21-22 also is speaking of this same time period where the Kings of the earth are judged at Armageddon and then imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit for many days to await the time of their punishment. These are the Locusts that Rev. 9:1-11 speaks of that were allowed out of the Bottomless pit at the 1,000 years of their imprisonment.

Jay Ross · Jan 2, 2022

APAK said:
To be fair Jay you did address my thread directly. So I ask two questions of you: Why or what is your basis for saying that Joel does not support Rev 9? And then what future event or events does Joel support if not AT LEAST Rev 9?
Can you direct me to some scripture and their interpretations in answering these questions?

Thanks

Daniel 7:26b tells us of the destruction of Jerusalem by the army given to the Little Horn and best describes what you are writing about.

Daniel 9:26b: -

And the people, {i.e. the Roman army}, of the prince, {i.e. the little horn} who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war, {i.e. the two age war in heaven}, desolations are determined.

NKJV

Isaiah 24:21-22 speaks of the judgement of the Kings of the earth and the heavenly hosts and that they are imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for many day, namely 1,000 years to await the time of their punishment. God's judgement is often associated with war.

My understanding from Luke 14:28-30 is that Israel's attempt to build a third temple will be the trigger that will cause the kings of the earth to gather within sight of Jerusalem and that at this time Jesus will judge the Kings of the earth, Luke 14:31-32, and Israel's determining that they need to seek Jesus's terms of peace least He turns His attention on Jerusalem and come against them. Romans 11:25-26 speaks of the completion of the 2,400 years of the Little Horn trampling God's sanctuary and His earthly Hosts with the armies he is given. As can be seen after the completion with respect to the duration of the Daniel 8 prophecy, all of Israel will be saved.

In looking at Biblical Prophecy, I have first had to establish the relationship and dependency of the prophecy being considered with other prophetic words given which may be related to each other. I have learned that you cannot cookie cut on prophecy from the scriptures and expect that it contains all of the information necessary for me to understand the prophecy fully. I know that I do not fully know all of the interconnecting prophecies associated with Rev. 9, but from what I do know, the Rev. 9 prophecy is a future distant prophecy that occurs after the Armageddon judgement of the Kings of the Earth when the 1,000 years of their imprisonment has run its course in time.

Misunderstanding the topology of the Biblical Prophecies always has lead me to wrong conclusions no matter how well I present my case with pretty pictures and diagrams.

Shalom

Revelation Chapter 9 - The Destruction of Physical Jerusalem, the Temple, the Law - End of an age!

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