New Views on the Rapture

bigape · Jun 7, 2011

Hello again lioncubseal

You first asked...........

“Why do I have to be part of any denomination or group to read my own bible and have my own views about it??”

I never said anything about “being part of any denomination or group”:
I said, that you have to be a "Christian", to truly understand the Bible and that this part of this forum, is for “Christians only”.

Oh, and I am glad that you are not a Mormon!
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Also, you and others asked...........

“Please list the Scripture that you referred to.”

I will be glad to.

The doctrine being established here is..........

“the belief that “a large group of Christians will physically, and all at the same time, disappear and be lifted up to the higher atmosphere to meet the lord literally in the sky:”

This is the way you put it; and this is pretty close to what the Bible teaches.

The first Scriptures that came to mind was.........
Acts 1:9-11
V.9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
V.10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
V.11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Jesus ascended up into the clouds, and will come back the same way........
1 Thessalonians 4:17
“Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
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Before I forget it, lets take a look at the first line of you OP.......

“The mainstream belief about the rapture”

This is much more than a “mainstream belief”; This is an established Bible Doctrine, that the true Church has believed for hundreds of years.

The title of your OP,...“New Views on the Rapture”; Also sends up red flags.
Because these are the last days and as Jesus warned us, deception is running rampant; Therefore every Christian is suspicious, of “anyone’s”....“New Views”.

And as expected, your “new views”, are not new at all.
They are false teachings, that have been disproved years and years ago.
(As I said, it seems to look a lot like Mormon beliefs!)
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You also said........

“As for the second verse in Thessalonians, I will demonstrate that Paul was not being literal with the words "clouds" and "air", because, putting science/common sense aside (there's virtually nothing up there), scripture does not allow us the possibility of 'being with the lord FOREVER' in the literal air/sky/atmosphere.”

Heaven, is a real place; It’s not “up in the air”...........
2 Corinthians 12:2
“I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.”

The 3rd heaven, is where Jesus went to and where he will take us, after the rapture!
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As for dozens of Bible passages, supporting the Church’s interpretation of this passage in 1 Thessalonians 4:
Here is just one........
1 Thessalonians 2:19
“For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?”

Now take a closer look at 1 Thessalonians 4:14............
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”
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The Spirit of Believers who die before the rapture, will go to heaven; And those believers(in Spirit form), will come back with Jesus, at the rapture.

And they will get their glorified bodies first..........
1 Thessalonians 4:15
“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.”

Their dead bodies will be glorified and resurrected, before our live bodies are......
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then......our bodies who are alive a the rapture, will be glorified...........
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
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You also said.......

“From this passage we see clearly that our eternal abode is of a very Earthly nature. Not only did the Lord use the word EARTH, he said we will give birth to infants, he said we will build houses, we will plant vineyards, eat fruits, wolves and lambs shall feed together, and the lion shall eat STRAW, and finally we see the image of a "holy MOUNTAIN", a moutain is clearly something very Earthly.”

This is the old “Earthly reward” lie, that the Mormons and many other false prophets have tried to float.
What it is, is a twisting, of God’s promise to His people the Jews.

Sure their will be a new heaven and a new earth.........
Hebrews 1:10-12
V.10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
V.11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
V.12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

The Earth is wearing out(it is going to last at least, through the 1000 year millennial reign), and then the Lord is going to destroy it all with fire and make a new heaven and a new Earth..........
Revelation 21:1
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”
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Here is the most troubling part of your OP............

“The understanding that the rapture does not mean to be lifted up out of the tribulation and into the sky by the Lord is crucial, because now we need to be responsible; before it was like ok all I need to do is to read the bible, pray, be a very good christian, and God will come for me when the time comes, there's nothing physical that I must do.”

First of all as we all know, the word “Rapture”, is not found in the Bible;
But the concept of it, is..........
1 Thessalonians 4:17
“Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

“caught up” Lit.(To snatch out or away)

And there are several other New Testament and Old Testament passages, that talk about God “snatching us away”!

These are just a few examples(off the top of my head), of how the entire Bible teaches that we will be “Raptured”.

But what is so troubling about this part of your post are these words.......

“God will come for me when the time comes, there's nothing physical that I must do”

True salvation, is a free gift!
All those who think that they “have to do something physical”, to go to heaven, will miss it!

TWC · Jun 7, 2011

Duckybill said:
I still don't see how our salvation is dependent upon the 'rapture' doctrine. Salvation is about our Savior, Jesus/God.

Matthew 25:1-13
“At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish and five were wise. The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’ Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps.

The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’

“No," they replied, "there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves."

But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

Later the others also came. "Lord, Lord," they said, "open the door for us!"

But he replied, "Truly I tell you, I don’t know you."

Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?"
Then I will tell them plainly, "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

Those who were not prepared were shut out.

Duckybill · Jun 7, 2011

TWC said:
Those who were not prepared were shut out.

If someone is truly saved and believing in Jesus/God the Savior and His Blood sacrifice, he/she is prepared.

tomwebster · Jun 7, 2011

Duckybill said:
If someone is truly saved and believing in Jesus/God the Savior and His Blood sacrifice, he/she is prepared.

Maybe the five weren’t truly virgins. Is that what you’re thinking, duck? Who is telling the "ten virgin" story, duck?

rockytopva · Jun 7, 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuWhgyGWkgE

Duckybill · Jun 7, 2011

tomwebster said:
Maybe the five weren’t truly virgins. Is that what you’re thinking, duck? Who is telling the "ten virgin" story, duck?

What does that have to do with my statement?

"If someone is truly saved and believing in Jesus/God the Savior and His Blood sacrifice, he/she is prepared."

Perhaps you're saying that those who disagree with your 'rapture' view are going to Hell? Did I misunderstand you? Please elaborate.

tomwebster · Jun 7, 2011

Duckybill said:
What does that have to do with my statement?

"If someone is truly saved and believing in Jesus/God the Savior and His Blood sacrifice, he/she is prepared."

Perhaps you're saying that those who disagree with your 'rapture' view are going to Hell? Did I misunderstand you? Please elaborate.

Were you or were you not answering TWC's post on the ten virgins? Those that believe they will be "raptured" are short on oil. What happened to the five virgins that were short of oil? They missed the wedding dinner.

Duckybill · Jun 7, 2011

tomwebster said:
Were you or were you not answering TWC's post on the ten virgins? Those that believe they will be "raptured" are short on oil. What happened to the five virgins that were short of oil? They missed the wedding dinner.

Ok then. A very simple question for you: Are you saying pre-trib believers are going to Hell?

tomwebster · Jun 7, 2011

Duckybill said:
Ok then. A very simple question for you: Are you saying pre-trib believers are going to Hell?

You quoted the answer to that question. What did Christ say regarding the five foolish virgins? They missed the wedding dinner. I don't decide who goes to hell, Christ does. Ask Him for the answer. It's in His Word, have you read it?

rockytopva · Jun 7, 2011

tomwebster said:
You quoted the answer to that question. What did Christ say regarding the five foolish virgins? They missed the wedding dinner. I don't decide who goes to hell, Christ does. Ask Him for the answer. It's in His Word, have you read it?

And at the end of this parable Jesus said...

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 25:13

Indicating that we are suppose to be ready for the Lords coming at any day and at any hour.

Duckybill · Jun 7, 2011

tomwebster said:
You quoted the answer to that question. What did Christ say regarding the five foolish virgins? They missed the wedding dinner. I don't decide who goes to hell, Christ does. Ask Him for the answer. It's in His Word, have you read it?

I was asking for clarification on YOUR opinion. Do YOU believe that pre-trib believers are going to Hell?

tomwebster · Jun 7, 2011

rockytopva said:
And at the end of this parable Jesus said...

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 25:13

Indicating that we are suppose to be ready for the Lords coming at any day and at any hour.

That's right, He's telling us to have plenty of oil in our lamps. Do you have enough? Guess you'll find out!

By the way, the word "know" in Matthew 25: 13 is the same as the word "knoweth" in 24: 36. We've talked about that before, remember?

TWC · Jun 7, 2011

rockytopva said:
And at the end of this parable Jesus said...

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 25:13

Indicating that we are suppose to be ready for the Lords coming at any day and at any hour.

I thought the pretrib position was that the rapture and second coming are two separate events...

rockytopva · Jun 7, 2011

TWC said:
I thought the pretrib position was that the rapture and second coming are two separate events...

There are indeed two comings!

First coming... In the skies

Second coming... With the triumphant one on the white horse.

TWC · Jun 7, 2011

Do you have scriptural evidence for there being two separate events?

rockytopva · Jun 7, 2011

TWC said:
Do you have scriptural evidence for there being two separate events?

Work time! Will get with you tomorrow....

rockytopva · Jun 7, 2011

rockytopva said:
Work time! Will get with you tomorrow....

Well.. On second thought... I think I am going to retreat a while in bible study and prayer. Please know that I am not ignoring you, just retreating a while. I am sincerely pliable on the subject as I have changed my video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7rTb4BJQsg) twice since on this board.

But I do believe...

Rapture... In a time in which we thing not...

Tribulation.. 3 1/2 years of Antichrist... 3 1/2 years of tribulation

Second return... We will return with Christ in our glorified bodies.

lioncubseal · Jun 7, 2011

Joshua David said:
lioncubseal,

Normally I do not come on here and start poking holes in other people's interpretation, but you did ask for feedback on your post.

Let's take these one at a time. While I am sure that there are some people who believe in the rapture, who quotes Matt 24 in support of the rapture, most of the bible scholars who believe in a rapture, be it post-trib or pre-trib, do not, for the exact reasons that you put in your post.

Now this is definitely not the case for the second verse that you quoted, which is quoted by almost everyone in their support for the rapture. But if you are going to refute our understanding of the scripture and put forth your own interpretation of the scripture, then it is helpful to take the scripture within the entire context of how it is used the in the chapter.

Let's look at the scripture, along with some of the surrounding verses, to see if how you portray the verse matches up to either how it has been commonly understood by the people who support the rapture, as well as to see if it supports your interpretation of the rapture.

1 Thess 4:13-18 [font="Verdana][size="2"][sup]13[/sup] Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. [sup]14[/sup] For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.[sup]15[/sup] According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. [sup]16[/sup] For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. [sup]17[/sup] After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. [sup]18[/sup] Therefore encourage one another with these words.[/size][/font]
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[font="Verdana][size="2"]Now, our understanding of the rapture is not based entirely on this one verse. There is another verse that talks about this event. A complete understanding of the rapture is impossible unless we also look at 1 Cor 15. [/size][/font]
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[font="Verdana][size="2"]1Cor 15:50-54 [/size][/font][font="Verdana][size="2"][sup]50[/sup] I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. [sup]51[/sup] Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— [sup]52[/sup] in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. [sup]53[/sup] For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. [sup]54[/sup] When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[/size][/font]
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[font="Verdana][size="2"]The scriptures tells us here that we will not all sleep ( meaning we will not all be dead ), but we will all be changed ( both the dead and the ones that are alive ). It tells us how long this change will take, ( in a twinkling of an eye ) it tells us what will be changed ( The perishable will clothe itself with the impreishable, and the mortal with immortality ). It tells us the order of the change ( The Dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are still alive ). It tells us the effect of the change ( then we who are alive will be caught up together with them, the dead in Christ in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air), and it tells us the reason for the change ( and so we will be with the Lord forever.) [/size][/font]
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You counter the second verse by showing how the scriptures prove that we will not be in the air forever. This is a poor argument in my opinion because neither do the scriptures say that we will be in the air forever, nor do the people who support the rapture claim that we will be in the air together. You can't mischaracterize a position, then disprove that mischaracteration, and think that this proves your position...

I will get the rest in a little bit.

Joshua David

Thank you Joshua David for pointing that out. Yes I was amiss to assume too much of 1 Thess 4:17 and in fact that verse does not necessarily say that we will be with the Lord forever in the literal sky/cloud, it just said that we'll be with the lord forever, which could be anywhere he wants.
This brings us to a very important point, which is that if you look closely to bible verses with the word cloud in them you can see clearly that "cloud" is repeatedly used by the Jews as symbol for divine presence. So I stand by my initial claim that Paul was not being literal with the words "sky" and "cloud", "sky" means a high spiritual plane, and "cloud" means divine presence, which in the second coming would be anywhere Jesus is. Because there's literally no reason why God would waste everybody's time by bringing them to the sky and then back down again, why not just gather everyone to mount zion, and at the critical moment (when Jesus decides that without his intervention we humans would end ourselves) intervene and destroy the statue in place (ungodly world governments)? The scripture in Revelations 13 you referred to is talking about Satan attacking the Saints on Earth. Notice that it says Satan was given authority to persecute the saints for 42 months, which is exactly 3.5 years; compare this to the other verse I quoted in Revelations 12 which described "the woman" fleeing to a place on Earth prepared for her for 3.5 years, this woman are the raptured saints, the rest of the saints would have to deal with Satan during that period.

Also something very important, Daniel actually predicted Jesus's first coming with these verses
Dan. 7:13-14 『In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.』
This is talking about the first rapture not the second because it says that he would be given authority, glory and sovereign power over all peoples, and this confering of power happened at his first coming
Matt. 28:18 『Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."』
To his disciples he said 『"And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me,"』--Luke 22:29

Therefore we see that the Bible prophesied Jesus's first coming as coming in the cloud, yet he came in the flesh (and only a few people knew that he was the messiah), it only makes sense that the second coming would follow the same pattern.
Therefore the Apostle Paul was not being literal with the words "cloud" and "sky".

The second coming we are told will consist of two parts, the first part with Jesus coming in the cloud and rapturing/rewarding saints, the second part with him coming as fire, judging.
2 Thess. 1:7-8 『This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.』
Isa. 66:15-16 『See, the LORD is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For with fire and with his sword the LORD will execute judgment upon all men and many will be those slain by the LORD.』

Anyway, the word rapture literally mean being gathered together, being gathered where? Being gathered to wherever Jesus is ofcourse! According to Revelations 14 the Lord will stand on Mount Zion, that is the site of the rapture--Mount Zion! And we Christians will have to prepare Mount Zion! Revelations 21: "2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, PREPARED AS A BRIDE beautifully dressed for her husband."

In case you have any doubts I will quote these verses again
Jeremiah 4:6
"Raise the signal to go to Zion! Flee for safety without delay! For I am bringing disaster from the north, even terrible destruction.”
Isaiah 35:10
"and those the LORD has rescued will return. They will enter Zion with singing; everlasting joy will crown their heads. Gladness and joy will overtake them, and sorrow and sighing will flee away."
Jeremiah 50:5
"They will ask the way to Zion and turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to the LORD in an everlasting covenant that will not be forgotten."

lioncubseal · Jun 8, 2011

bigape said:
 True salvation, is a free gift! All those who think that they “have to do something physical”, to go to heaven, will miss it!

No, the GUARANTEE of salvation is a free gift, but the fullness of salvation is something to be worked at and attained with fear and trembling as per Philippians 2:12. After accepting Jesus Christ we are given the seed of salvation and the PROMISE of salvation but not the full realization of salvation! Did the Bible say in Acts 16:31 "believes in Jesus and you will be saved" or "believes in Jesus and you are saved"? How much suffering you go through before you attain the fullness that's entirely up to you! The people of Israel were given a promise to enter the land of canaan, but because of their own choices and disobedience that promise was extended for 40 years. At the rapture the Christ himself will help you attain the fullness of salvation, if you miss it then you'll have to suffer for a bit longer.... 1 peter 1 " [sup]3[/sup] Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, [sup]4[/sup] and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, [sup]5[/sup] who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Corinthians 15 "[sup]22[/sup]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. [sup]23[/sup]But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." So it's very important to have enough oil in your lamp so you can see the truth when you are face to face with it. But don't worry, "God works out all things for good"

veteran · Jun 8, 2011

Duckybill said:
I still don't see how our salvation is dependent upon the 'rapture' doctrine. Salvation is about our Savior, Jesus/God.

Those in Christ Jesus are ESPOUSED to Him, like Paul said in 2 Corinthians 11. That's why our Lord Jesus used the idea of spiritual 'virgins' about His servants.

Because many don't study all The Bible, they miss the importance of this 'virgin' analogy given in the New Testament. The analogy actually was first given back in the OT prophets.

There will be TWO spiritual WEDDINGS, the first one will be fake, the other one will be True:

1st Wedding - the deceived virgins to the false messiah who comes FIRST
2nd Wedding - the faithful virgins who wait for Christ when He comes to destroy the fake

The fake wedding, or false spiritual marriage, is what the false messiah who comes first is going to do. That's what the tribulation time is for when the fake will setup an idol abomination for all to bow in worship to. That's why per the end of Luke 17 the first ones 'taken' will be as dead 'carcases' where the eagles (vultures) are gathered together.

It's ALL ABOUT KNOWING THE TRUE TIMING OF CHRIST'S RETURN.

So what doctrine of men serves as a prep for the deceived to be taken in the FIRST wedding, which will be a false wedding to the false messiah, the fake husband, the "another Jesus" Paul mentioned in 2 Cor.11? I'm not making up this spiritual 'virgin' analogy, our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave several examples of it.

How do you think our Lord Jesus will feel when He does return, and finds many of His betrothed virgins have already married to a false one in His Place? That's why He will say to the five foolish virgins, that He never knew them, and closes the door on them (Matt.25).

This is why the pre-trib doctrines are so dangerous to one's soul, because it wrongly teaches being gathered just PRIOR to the start of the great tribulation, which is actually the time when the fake marriage to a false messiah will begin.

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