New Views on the Rapture

Hi Retrobyter,

Those are all wonderful verses, but I think many apply to the Millennial Kingdom, when I anticipate that indeed the meek shall inherit the earth.

But of course where so many focus on one aspect (i.e., "forever") they equally ignore another aspect ("the heavens and the earth shall pass away"). So it's not Scriptural until ALL aspects are addressed.


BibleScribe

Shalom, BibleScribe and popeye.

Actually, it will be neither a cube nor a sphere. The sphere theory is assuming that the city will remain in orbit around the New Earth and will thus be a satellite like the moon. There are several reasons why I believe that Yerushalayim haChadashah (the New Jerusalem) MUST LAND UPON the New Earth:

I read my list to a friend once (who believed that the New Jerusalem would be a cube) and for all my arguments, the one that struck home to him was a very simple one. I'll reveal it in a moment.

Here are some of the reasons:

First, reasons why I believe that the New Jerusalem will land on the New Earth:

1. The city will have foundations or footings (Greek: themelioi).
2. The city is said to come down from God out of the sky (Greek: ouranos frequently translated “heaven”). John doesn't use Paul's word epouranios, meaning "of or belonging to above-the-sky."
3. The city is said to have golden streets; I believe that these golden streets will lead to the twelve gates of pearl where they will connect to twelve roads on the surface of the New Earth.
4. The city is said to have three gates on each of its four sides with each group of three gates facing a different compass direction; therefore, the city will be aligned with true north.
5. These gates and the street connected to these gates should lead SOMEWHERE. I believe they will lead outside to the surface of the New Earth.
6. The nations of the Earth are said to bring their glory and honor into the city; therefore, normal travel on foot or in vehicles to get to the city should be possible and allowed without a high cost factor.
7. The city has a river of life-sustaining (potable) water flowing in the middle of the streets; where would the water go? To me, it makes the best sense to imagine that it will flow out of the twelve gates to form twelve rivers on the surface of the New Earth, just as the streets should connect to twelve roads going in twelve different directions on the surface of this New Earth.
8. I believe that the city will have a pyramidal shape, also for a number of reasons, but in a sphere or in a cube, where is the logical place for the location for the throne of God and of the Lamb? In the exact center, right? However, in a pyramid, where is the logical place for the location for the throne? In the pinnacle, right? Now, if you'll notice where the river of life-sustaining water originates, it comes FROM the throne! Now ask yourself, "How does the water go throughout the city?" If the shape is a cube or a sphere, somehow the water would have to be PUMPED to the parts of the city above the center where the throne would be. However, if the shape is a pyramid, the water could flow naturally down in the direction of gravity! (One might also recall that the "pinnacle" of a pyramid is called a "capstone." In the Scriptures, this is known as "the head stone of the corner" or a "head of the corner," as in Psalm 118:22, Matthew 21:42, Mark 12:10, Luke 20:17, Acts 4:11, and Ephesians 2:20!)

This is the reason that convinced my friend.

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In the Messiah's love,

Retrobyter

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Retrobyter, Bible Scribe -

Items no. 1-6 of Retrobyter's analysis, is dead-on!.... And were reasons I was going to use to show that there is indeed a "New Earth". And the new earth is a totally separate entity from the New ( Holy ) Jerusalem. However, your 7th point is in error. There is only one river mentioned that feeds the Tree of Life. Where do you get multiple rivers? And why are you concerned about "earthly" concerns of "pumping water" and gravity? God can easily supply water anywhere, and anyhow, he sees fit, regardless of the shape of his holy city. Scripture certainly doesn't support that. Besides, the new earth has no seas ( Rev 21: 1 ).

Your pyramid idea is interesting, and could possibly be so, being it looks more like a "mountain" than any cube does. However, you are merely speculating because the scriptures simply don't support enough detail to really assign New Jerusalem as anything other than a cube. Furthermore, John would have had to move to the central point of the city, and measure directly straight up from that central point, to verify the height, if it were a pyramid. Not saying he couldn't, or didn't do it, but it's simply not documented that he did. He merely records that the length, width and height were identical in measurement. He is describing a cube by any other name.

There is no question though, that the New Jerusalem is simply not a sphere. We know this by the descriptions of it by John in Rev 21. Furthermore, one cannot "measure" a circle, or sphere, as simply geometry requires that you need a mathematical calculation using the radius, the circumference, and the mathematical Konstant PI ( the # 3.14 ). To measure it any other way would require an infinite number of axes in all 3 planes of revolution. If John was looking at a sphere when he was told to measure it, I'm sure he would have looked at the angel and said, "How?".

The number four ( 4 ) has been used by God in scripture to denote "spiritual and geometric completeness". There are 4 gospels, 4 beasts before the Throne, 4 Horsemen, 4 beasts of Dan 7, the 4 heads of Dan's 3rd beast, 4 corners of the earth, 4 winds of heaven....and I could go on, but it is much more likely what we are given a description of, in Rev 21, is likely a CUBE.

Who really cares what shape it is really? Fact is, my point all along was to point out the shear expanse of it. To look upon this city from ground level, one would not be able to see to the end of the walls in any direction. Something that big would "take my breath away" to try and gaze at it. It would cover a footprint of the earth equal to looking from Colorado to the Atlantic ocean - west to east - on one side, and from Miami to New York in the other direction. And there is no skyscraper in the world that would even be more than a speck on the base of this monster, height wise. The shear size of this thing humbles ya....


There is a new earth and new heaven.
There is a huge City that sits on the new earth's surface.
God will live in that city, and dwell with us on this earth.
And the new earth has no seas.

And what is even more humbling, is that this huge, expansive city, Holy Jerusalem, IS MOBILE AND CAN MOVE AS ONE UNIT, ascending or descending into the heavenly relmns at the whim of God.!!!!!!!!

I hate using the term, but this Holy City fits all the descriptions of an intergalactic spaceship of uncomprehensible size and complexity...... fitting for the God of our fathers.

Shalom, Retro....

popeye said:

...
There is no question though, that the New Jerusalem is simply not a sphere. We know this by the descriptions of it by John in Rev 21. Furthermore, one cannot "measure" a circle, or sphere, as simply geometry requires that you need a mathematical calculation using the radius, the circumference, and the mathematical Konstant PI ( the # 3.14 ). To measure it any other way would require an infinite number of axes in all 3 planes of revolution. If John was looking at a sphere when he was told to measure it, I'm sure he would have looked at the angel and said, "How?".
...

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Hey Popeye,

I don't mind someone having an opinion as to any premise, but I don't believe that there is any precedence one way or another for measuring nor not measuring a sphere in the X, Y, & Z axes as I've proposed. Certainly it's one way of defining a sphere, albeit not the only way.

And equally, I would propose there is no precedent for a cube or pyramid, but plenty for a sphere.


But because this is not salvation dependent, I'm not too worried. -- it's just a small aspect of GODs greater plan which one might contemplate. ^_^


BibleScribe

And equally, I would propose there is no precedent for a cube or pyramid, but plenty for a sphere.

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Rev 21:16 - "And the city lieth foursquare..."

There's your "precedent", Bible Scribe. The term "foursquare" appears in no circle / sphere description I've ever heard of.

Just admit it, BS...it's NOT a sphere. It's ok ....( You're getting as bad as Petra now! LOL ! )....

Your friend,

Mike

popeye said:

Rev 21:16 - "And the city lieth foursquare..."

There's your "precedent", Bible Scribe. The term "foursquare" appears in no circle / sphere description I've ever heard of.

Just admit it, BS...it's NOT a sphere. It's ok ....( You're getting as bad as Petra now! LOL ! )....

Your friend,

Mike

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LOL, -- I hate to break the news, Popeye, but there are a bunch of "town squares", and this planet is ROUND.

Your Bud,
BScribe

This constant bickering about the rapture is little more than a pointless joke. The offspring of obsolete dispensationalist theology of the nineteenth century, the twin sisters rapture and tribulation have become the Christian version of comic book theology.

The dogma serves NO constructive purpose whatsoever. It creates ill will, it misleads, it divides the body of Christ and IT DOES NOT GLORIFY JESUS. Promotion of the theory serves only to glorify those who promote it. Want proof? Go to your local bookstore. I'll bet dimes to donuts that you'll find at least one copy of a rapture/tribulation variant on the shelf.

Late night TV comedians use it for joke material, easy chair theologians use it instead of meatier material to promote their intellectual prowess and greedy bretheren use it to control the weak minded and to suck dollars from their bank accounts. The evil one uses it to lure many into a lack of faith, causing them to believe that they need not exercise that gift when they will be conveniently evacuated instead. The dogma is evidence of a corrupt and Laodicean society which now desires instant gratification rather than the patient steady pursuit of the fruits of righteousness. It is a wicked deception that ought to be abandoned.

Unfortunately it won't be cast aside because there will always be those who find the rigorous exercise of faith to be too strenuous.

[email protected] said:

This constant bickering about the rapture is little more than a pointless joke. ...

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There are many things which GOD provides, and man ignores. -- I'll choose GOD.


BibleScribe




PS If you correctly understood that TRUE event, you'd appreciate the logic.

[email protected] said:

This constant bickering about the rapture is little more than a pointless joke. The offspring of obsolete dispensationalist theology of the nineteenth century, the twin sisters rapture and tribulation have become the Christian version of comic book theology.

The dogma serves NO constructive purpose whatsoever. It creates ill will, it misleads, it divides the body of Christ and IT DOES NOT GLORIFY JESUS. Promotion of the theory serves only to glorify those who promote it. Want proof? Go to your local bookstore. I'll bet dimes to donuts that you'll find at least one copy of a rapture/tribulation variant on the shelf.

Late night TV comedians use it for joke material, easy chair theologians use it instead of meatier material to promote their intellectual prowess and greedy bretheren use it to control the weak minded and to suck dollars from their bank accounts. The evil one uses it to lure many into a lack of faith, causing them to believe that they need not exercise that gift when they will be conveniently evacuated instead. The dogma is evidence of a corrupt and Laodicean society which now desires instant gratification rather than the patient steady pursuit of the fruits of righteousness. It is a wicked deception that ought to be abandoned.

Unfortunately it won't be cast aside because there will always be those who find the rigorous exercise of faith to be too strenuous.

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That confusion and make fun joking is exactly what the designers of the Pre-trib rapture theory intended to happen, since it is not a doctrine that originates in God's Holy Writ. The Christian Church for over 1,800 years never had that doctrine which only began in 1830's Britain among the Edward Irving church and Margaret McDonald's bed-riden hallucinations.

Shalom, BibleScribe.

BibleScribe said:

Hi Retrobyter,

Those are all wonderful verses, but I think many apply to the Millennial Kingdom, when I anticipate that indeed the meek shall inherit the earth.

But of course where so many focus on one aspect (i.e., "forever") they equally ignore another aspect ("the heavens and the earth shall pass away"). So it's not Scriptural until ALL aspects are addressed.


BibleScribe

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I'm going to have FUN answering all the posts, but this is a quick one.

Where do you get a "Millennial Kingdom?" One must be VERY careful with theological/eschatological labels. Go back to Luke 1:30-33:

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

Sure, we have the 1000 years talked about in Rev. 20, but that's NOT THE END! And, although we also have 1 Cor. 15:20-28 which talk about Yeshua` handing over the World Empire to His Father, we have numerous promises that He will continue to reign in Yerushalayim over Yisra'el!

Shalom, Popeye.

popeye said:

Retrobyter, Bible Scribe -

Items no. 1-6 of Retrobyter's analysis, is dead-on!.... And were reasons I was going to use to show that there is indeed a "New Earth". And the new earth is a totally separate entity from the New ( Holy ) Jerusalem. However, your 7th point is in error. There is only one river mentioned that feeds the Tree of Life. Where do you get multiple rivers? And why are you concerned about "earthly" concerns of "pumping water" and gravity? God can easily supply water anywhere, and anyhow, he sees fit, regardless of the shape of his holy city. Scripture certainly doesn't support that. Besides, the new earth has no seas ( Rev 21: 1 ).

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Here's why I believe that there will be a division of the one river into twelve:

Rev 22:1-2
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
KJV

Is there just one street? If you say no, the Bible says there was only one street, just like it said there was one river. If you say yes, then how does one get around within the city? There's one TYPE of street, and indeed they probably will join seamlessly at the intersections, but one street in an endless corkscrew doesn't make sense. IF there is just one street, then to which of the twelve gates would it go? OR, does it just go by all twelve gates one after another? No, as in any well-designed city, the street will branch throughout the city, serving all the buildings, parks, recreational areas, and ALL THE GATES.

Now where is the river? It is said to be in the midst (middle) of its (the city's) street! If the street branches, guess what happens to the river! And, if all the gates are serviced by the street, then all the gates are serviced by the river as well! See, in the Hebrew mindset, such a phrase as "water of life" means "living water" or "MOVING water!" It's life-giving water because it is not stagnant! It's like in the mikvah, the pools for Jewish baptism before it was adopted by believers who call themselves Christians: One could not be cleaned in the mikvah if its waters were still; they had to be "living waters" or "moving waters." This is the main reason for Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) to use Nehar haYarden or the Jordan River. Even in the dry season, it is constantly moving as it flows from Yam Kinneret (the Sea of Galilee) at 702 feet below sea level to Yam ha-Melach (the Dead Sea) at 1,368 feet below sea level.

In a city that is 1,500 miles high, and if the throne is at the pinnacle, then the river would flow downhill throughout the city in a constant array of moving waters in cascades, and waterfalls and fast moving streams! Eventually the river would either pool at the bottom of the city, OR it would evaporate, OR it would flow out of the city onto the New Earth! Where else would God have it flow? GOD LOVES THIS EARTH!!! He CREATED it! He saw all that He had made after the first six days and what did He say?

Gen 1:31
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
KJV

If God thinks it was all "very good," and if God is PERFECT, then what does that say about the original Creation?

I once had a pastor who outlined the whole Bible very simply:

I. What ought to be - Gen. 1,2
II. What is - Gen. 3
III. How to get from what is to what ought to be - Gen. 4-Rev. 22

The river of the Eden was "parted into four heads." (Gen. 2:10-14) Why shouldn't the River from Paradise be "parted into TWELVE heads," all going in FOUR compass directions? Gan-Eden, the Garden of Eden, is a garden of trees, a "pardeec" in Hebrew. This is the word from which the Greek word "paradeisos" comes! And, we get our word "Paradise" from this Greek word! Therefore, the New Jerusalem will also be a garden of trees, just as Gan-Eden was!

Sure, "God can easily supply water anywhere, and anyhow, he sees fit, regardless of the shape of his holy city," but isn't that true about all our cities and our earth, now? And yet, He sees fit to allow for a hydrological cycle of precipitation, running off into streams and rivers, and lakes and seas, and evaporating back into clouds that then will precipitate once again! He doesn't have to allow gravity to work at all; yet, He saw fit to give us mass and the force of gravitational attraction between bodies of mass! God can always do anything that He wants to do, but He USUALLY does things through the laws of physics He has already put in place! And, since when or who says that Scripture doesn't support the laws of nature God has instituted?! Finally, while Yochanan said that he saw the new earth without a sea, that doesn't mean that it will NEVER have seas! Furthermore, he may have just been talking about the Mediterranean Sea that was separating him on the Isle of Patmos from his loved ones on the main land!

THINK BIGGER and respect the earth that GOD CREATED!

popeye said:

Your pyramid idea is interesting, and could possibly be so, being it looks more like a "mountain" than any cube does. However, you are merely speculating because the scriptures simply don't support enough detail to really assign New Jerusalem as anything other than a cube. Furthermore, John would have had to move to the central point of the city, and measure directly straight up from that central point, to verify the height, if it were a pyramid. Not saying he couldn't, or didn't do it, but it's simply not documented that he did. He merely records that the length, width and height were identical in measurement. He is describing a cube by any other name.

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Well, THAT'S wrong! He isn't describing a cube! Yochanan merely said that it "lieth foursquare." That means that it covers a square plot of ground, and nothing is said about the walls or a roof! The Greek word is "tetragoonos" and literally means "four-cornered" or "four right-angled" or simply "square." It has a square footprint, and that's ALL you can deduce about the city's shape from that verse. The additional information that the verse supplies, i.e., that each side is 12,000 furlongs (stadia) long and wide and that the city is 12,000 furlongs high, just give us the dimensions of the city, not its shape.

Now, how would you measure a city that is 12,000 furlongs or 1,500 miles long? with a yardstick?! I should hope not! Yochanan didn't do the measuring; the messenger to whom he was talking did. (I think you're confusing this passage with chapter 11:1-2.) And, the messenger didn't use a yardstick, either. He used a "kalamon chrusoun," a "golden reed," a "golden TUBE!" He used a surveyor's theodolite! He did it with angles and trigonometry, same as we do today, same as the Egyptians and the Greeks did before Yeshua` was born!

popeye said:

There is no question though, that the New Jerusalem is simply not a sphere. We know this by the descriptions of it by John in Rev 21. Furthermore, one cannot "measure" a circle, or sphere, as simply geometry requires that you need a mathematical calculation using the radius, the circumference, and the mathematical Konstant PI ( the # 3.14 ). To measure it any other way would require an infinite number of axes in all 3 planes of revolution. If John was looking at a sphere when he was told to measure it, I'm sure he would have looked at the angel and said, "How?".

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While I would tend to agree with you here, remember that chords that pass through the center of a sphere define the diameters of a sphere, and every three-dimensional object has three, orthogonal dimensions. Therefore, it is possible to measure the east-west diameter, measure orthogonal on the same plane and get a north-south diameter and then, measuring orthogonal (at right angles) to each of those directions (defining the plane surface), get a diameter from the highest point to the lowest point. Also, 3.14 may not be precise enough for this structure. Just for fun, there's a little poem I've memorized for pi, although it is technically a transcendental number. Be sure to use the Brittish spelling for "endeavour":

Now I will a rhyme construct
By chosen words the young instruct
Cunningly devised endeavour
Con it and remember ever
Widths in circle here you see
sketched out in strange obscurity...

By counting the number of letters in each word, you get another number for pi. This takes the number out to 30 places past the decimal, namely...

3.141592653589793238462643383279....

popeye said:

The number four ( 4 ) has been used by God in scripture to denote "spiritual and geometric completeness". There are 4 gospels, 4 beasts before the Throne, 4 Horsemen, 4 beasts of Dan 7, the 4 heads of Dan's 3rd beast, 4 corners of the earth, 4 winds of heaven....and I could go on, but it is much more likely what we are given a description of, in Rev 21, is likely a CUBE.

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Actually, you are using Hebrew Gematria, called Kaballah - a form of Jewish mysticism, and the number four ( 4 ) is the number of the earth!

popeye said:

Who really cares what shape it is really? Fact is, my point all along was to point out the shear expanse of it. To look upon this city from ground level, one would not be able to see to the end of the walls in any direction. Something that big would "take my breath away" to try and gaze at it. It would cover a footprint of the earth equal to looking from Colorado to the Atlantic ocean - west to east - on one side, and from Miami to New York in the other direction. And there is no skyscraper in the world that would even be more than a speck on the base of this monster, height wise. The shear size of this thing humbles ya....

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I have to care. There are many interconnected facts that must add up. For instance, has it ever occurred to you that the walls are said to be of jasper as is the first foundation? There's no mention of a roof or ceiling. If the four walls are allowed to be triangles that come to a common point, the pinnacle, do you realize that the entire city would be encased in jasper? Did you know that jasper is the BLOODSTONE? In point of fact, the jasper is actually the red flecks within the green chalcedony of the bloodstone; it's the "blood" of the bloodstone! That means that you can't get into the New Jerusalem without going through the "blood!" Furthermore, you can only get into the city through one of the gates where the round, pearl gate has been rolled away from the opening, attended by one of the angels or messengers! Each and every gate is a commemoration of our Lord's RESURRECTION! Thus, it is only through His Resurrection that we gain access! No, I have to care.

popeye said:

There is a new earth and new heaven.
There is a huge City that sits on the new earth's surface.
God will live in that city, and dwell with us on this earth.
And the new earth has no seas.

And what is even more humbling, is that this huge, expansive city, Holy Jerusalem, IS MOBILE AND CAN MOVE AS ONE UNIT, ascending or descending into the heavenly realms at the whim of God.!!!!!!!!

I hate using the term, but this Holy City fits all the descriptions of an intergalactic spaceship of uncomprehensible size and complexity...... fitting for the God of our fathers.

Shalom, Retro....

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No, again, the new earth WHEN YOCHANAN SAW IT IN REV. 21:1-2 had no more sea. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that it had no water or that it would NEVER have any water or sea! I believe that part of the creation of the New Earth and New Sky will be rebuilding its water system! Imagine twelve new rivers, each one pouring out of each of the gates of the city to water the New Earth, a complex watering system to water the face of the ground! It will be very similar to the Creation of the first Earth and its first Sky in Genesis 2:10-14.

And, no. Once that foundation is sunk into the ground, that city is not going anywhere ever again! It will be our home - God's House, literally, His "tent" - and the whole earth will be our backyard in which to play! We don't need to go anywhere! GOD IS WITH US! The earth is sufficiently big for all of us, especially after it is renovated and rejuvenated! In addition, we'll have the entire Yerushalayim Chadashah to explore and live within! There is no "Heaven" to go to; no "heavenly realms" to visit! The word "heaven" comes from "ouranos" which means "THE SKY!" The New Heaven is the NEW SKY, the NEW ATMOSPHERE around the New Earth! If you will, "Heaven" will have come to US! We don't go to "Heaven!"

Retrobyter said:

Shalom, BibleScribe.



I'm going to have FUN answering all the posts, but this is a quick one.

Where do you get a "Millennial Kingdom?" One must be VERY careful with theological/eschatological labels. Go back to Luke 1:30-33:

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

Sure, we have the 1000 years talked about in Rev. 20, but that's NOT THE END! And, although we also have 1 Cor. 15:20-28 which talk about Yeshua` handing over the World Empire to His Father, we have numerous promises that He will continue to reign in Yerushalayim over Yisra'el!

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I think you confuse "heaven" (eternity) with the thousand year reign (millennium). And I don't suspect it's your intellect that's the problem, but rather a false doctrine which supercedes your intellect.


BibleScribe

RB ( short for Retrobyter ) -

You make a solid defense and knowledgable argument for a SPECULATIVE description of the Holy Jerusalem. However, scripture simply doesn't detail your wanton understanding, or vision, of the Holy Jerusalem. Be careful, RB, because you're going down that path whereby you are adding to the prophetic scripture.

Everything you argue could be true from the rather general description given of the Holy City....but....scripture simply doesn't detail what you envision. I'm sorry.

Fact is, you're missing the point. We are to be humbled by the shear size and beauty of the Holy City. We also should be humbled by the incomprehensible complexity of a structure this size that is mobile enough to descend from the heavens. I certainly am....If only these secular progressives, and scientists who try to refute the existence of God could fathom the shear scientific complexity of this Holy City / Mountain of God, then they would realize how minuscule they are on the scale of intelligence. That's what irritates me. Arrogant bastards....all...

Consider the idea that there isn't a "street" as we know a "street". Consider that maybe John was describing a continuous "plaza" that he could only define as a "street". In other words, a "plaza" similar to the plaza ( St. Peter's Square ) at the Vatican in front of St. Peter's cathedral.... only paved in gold....Just a thought....

I see you've had some math background, as you have jogged my memory as I remember that rhyme of PI as well.

Anyway, RB, thanks for replying. Ya did a nice job at trying to justify your position / belief / vision of the Holy City. However, the details are simply not there in the scriptures to support your vision / belief. But, if you believe this, then by all means, believe it, cause there is no harm to anyone in your belief. And for the record, I will say that a pyramid does sound logical, and I could believe that....in lieu of a cube. And I also agree with you that scripture supports the idea that God remains with man ON EARTH for eternity. None-the-less, we are talking about a mobile City that literally descends from the heavens to earth. That IS scriptural. Therefore, it is a mobile city....for what it's worth...

Best,

Mike

BTW....a belief in a Millennial Kingdom is basic eschatology 101, RB. You cannot deny the scriptures in it's description of this in Rev 20. People call it the "MK" because it's easier to say MK than "a 1000 year reign of Christ". Same with "The Rapture". These are terminologies that make it easier to discuss these ideas / beliefs / events without repeating the same long explanations every time you mention them. And yes, the world doesn't end at the completion of the MK of Christ. Who ever said it did?

BibleScribe said:

I think you confuse "heaven" (eternity) with the thousand year reign (millennium). And I don't suspect it's your intellect that's the problem, but rather a false doctrine which supercedes your intellect.


BibleScribe

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Hi Retrobyter,

I think my last response may have been in haste, regarding your statement: Where do you get a "Millennial Kingdom?"

In hind sight, I should have asked you to clarify your position.


BibleScribe

lioncubseal wrote:

Therefore we need not guess for the meaning of the verb to take, Jesus gave us the meaning, he used it in verse 39 to describe being destroyed, being "taken by the grim reaper" if you will, by the flood. In the same way, the Great Tribulation will be such that two men will be the the field working, one will just fall dead (probably out of fatigue) and the other is left to clean up the corpse.
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To this I would say if I said aloud the word "threw" you could derive several diverse meanings...even (and the reason I used this word) different spelling. The caught in the air thing I will address as well plus one more issue, the rapture taking place all over all at once all at the same time. I am not in agreement with you on the word used taken meaning anything other then taken as in raptured. This is why I have explained several times, that the rapture should be examined as to which Christians it is intended... The elderly, the weak, those imprisoned, etc. meaning it is for those who cannot deny the beast's mark. Certainly, one should see a reason here for a rapture. Now lets look at "caught in the air" After Armageddon those that remained on earth through (threw? lol) tribulations may need to be caught in the air while the earth is renewed... at least in part... this is for our consideration, and EVERYONE who are saved will be with the Lord forever.

Finally, the idea of "all at once" why does it have to happen world wide all at once? (I do believe it will happen world wide and all at once but...) I venture to ponder that it may not happen all at once but could have been an on-going process gone un-noticed. Consider the disappearance of many whose pictures we see on milk cartons... possibly this could escalate encompassing people who we expect not to easily disappear... hospital patients, prisoners etc... These are just ideas to consider.,, God bless

BibleScirbe wrote: If I might, -- satan cannot obtain subservience by default.


Excellent input... Consider that God knew the end from the beginning AND that to ensure/prevent anyone from having the mark forced upon them, we have the rapture. Remember, people will most certainly be tempted, some by every fiber of their being (asking... Where does every fiber of their being and forced separate - the line in the sand?)...and so the rapture is the line in the sand.

The road map of the end times is drawn up completely in scripture. It is an insult to the Bible and to God to say that we need a doctrine of man to put all of the pieces together. Those who believe otherwise should do themselves (and others) a great favor and stop identifying themselves as Christians.

The Bible is very clear on the subject. Paul said that those who are alive and remain would not precede those who have fallen asleep. In Revelation, John says that those who refuse the mark of the beast will take part in the first resurrection. In John's gospel, Jesus said that the righteous would be raised on the last day. In Matthew, He said that the wheat and tares would grow together until the harvest. He also specifically said that the elect would be gathered after the tribulation. Peter identifies the elect as those who God foreknew to be obedient to Christ, people who he said formerly lived in ignorance, indicating a gentile audience. Also, Paul stated that all who have faith are the seed of Abraham.

As I stated in the other thread, to continue to cling to the pretrib rapture doctrine is to make liars out of the New Testament writers and of Christ. Read the Old Testament and see if any special consideration was given to the elderly, weak, imprisoned, etc.

Shalom, BibleScribe.

BibleScribe said:

I think you confuse "heaven" (eternity) with the thousand year reign (millennium). And I don't suspect it's your intellect that's the problem, but rather a false doctrine which supercedes your intellect.


BibleScribe

Click to expand...

No, not at all. You see, "heaven" is not eternity; the New Earth is eternity. A New Heaven, or "ouranon kainon" in Greek (Rev. 21:1), is simply the new atmosphere around that New Earth, because in the middle of "ouranos" is where all the birds fly ("pasin tois orneois tois petomenois en mesouraneemati," Rev. 19:17). "The city Holy Jerusalem New" (teen polin teen hagian Ierousaleem kaineen, Rev. 21:2) to which the author of Hebrews refers in Heb. 12:22, is called "polei Theou zoontos Ierousaleem epouranioo," a "city of God Living, Jerusalem above-the-sky," "above-the-ouranos." Yochanan (John) adds only that it descends out of the sky" ("katabainousan ek tou ouranou," Rev. 21:2). That's the same place where the "celestial bodies," or "bodies from-above-the-ouranos," like the sun, moon, and stars, are, according to Paul in 1 Cor. 15:40-41 ("soomata epourania").

I've learned that "Heaven" is actually "heaven," and "heaven" is simply the "sky." The "third heaven" is not spatially third - y'know, "first heaven = of clouds, second heaven = of stars, third heaven = God's abode" (as per C. I. Scofield), but is actually the "third heaven" CHRONOLOGICALLY! The first "heaven" was the sky around the earth before the Flood, the second "heaven" is the sky around this present earth (after the Flood and before the Fire), and the third "heaven" is the sky around the third earth after the Fire (2 Peter 3:3-13).

Thus, when Paul said he knew a man who had been snatched away to the "third heaven," like most prophets, that man was simply transported to the future "third sky" around the New Earth.

Paradise (Greek: paradeisos = Hebrew: pardec, pronounced "par-DACE," means a PARK, particularly an orchard) is or is within the New Jerusalem. Consider the following verses:

Revelation 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
KJV

Revelation 22:2
2 In the midst of the street of it (the New Jerusalem), and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
KJV

Now, as far as the millennium is concerned, it is important to understand that "mille annium," Latin for "a thousand years," a translation of the Greek "chilia etee," which also means "a thousand years," is found in both Revelation 20:1-6 and 2 Peter 3:3-13:

Revelation 20:1-15; 21:1-4
20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

Most have never made the connection between these two passages, but the link (in my opinion) is 1 Cor. 15:20-28:

1 Cor. 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

Thus, I see the connection between all these passages in this fact: the Millennium is simply a prelude to eternity. It is a time when Yeshua`s enemies - ALL of His enemies - are subdued. Consider one more passage:

John 5:19-30
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
KJV

One at a time during that 1000 years, His enemies will succumb to His leadership, either willingly or by force, becoming King of kings - a King to kings and a Master to masters as they become His subjects and servants.

When Yeshua` has finally conquered the last enemy, Death itself, then Yeshua` hands over the rulership of the Empire to His Father but continues to reign as the King of Isra'el, as per Luke 1:30-33. The only thing is that the Son will be subject unto Him (God the Father) who put all things under Him (the Son, Messiah Yeshua`).

Shalom, Mike.

popeye said:

RB ( short for Retrobyter ) -

You make a solid defense and knowledgable argument for a SPECULATIVE description of the Holy Jerusalem. However, scripture simply doesn't detail your wanton understanding, or vision, of the Holy Jerusalem. Be careful, RB, because you're going down that path whereby you are adding to the prophetic scripture.

Everything you argue could be true from the rather general description given of the Holy City....but....scripture simply doesn't detail what you envision. I'm sorry.

Fact is, you're missing the point. We are to be humbled by the shear size and beauty of the Holy City. We also should be humbled by the incomprehensible complexity of a structure this size that is mobile enough to descend from the heavens. I certainly am....If only these secular progressives, and scientists who try to refute the existence of God could fathom the shear scientific complexity of this Holy City / Mountain of God, then they would realize how minuscule they are on the scale of intelligence. That's what irritates me. Arrogant bastards....all...

Consider the idea that there isn't a "street" as we know a "street". Consider that maybe John was describing a continuous "plaza" that he could only define as a "street". In other words, a "plaza" similar to the plaza ( St. Peter's Square ) at the Vatican in front of St. Peter's cathedral.... only paved in gold....Just a thought....

I see you've had some math background, as you have jogged my memory as I remember that rhyme of PI as well.

Anyway, RB, thanks for replying. Ya did a nice job at trying to justify your position / belief / vision of the Holy City. However, the details are simply not there in the scriptures to support your vision / belief. But, if you believe this, then by all means, believe it, cause there is no harm to anyone in your belief. And for the record, I will say that a pyramid does sound logical, and I could believe that....in lieu of a cube. And I also agree with you that scripture supports the idea that God remains with man ON EARTH for eternity. None-the-less, we are talking about a mobile City that literally descends from the heavens to earth. That IS scriptural. Therefore, it is a mobile city....for what it's worth...

Best,

Mike

BTW....a belief in a Millennial Kingdom is basic eschatology 101, RB. You cannot deny the scriptures in it's description of this in Rev 20. People call it the "MK" because it's easier to say MK than "a 1000 year reign of Christ". Same with "The Rapture". These are terminologies that make it easier to discuss these ideas / beliefs / events without repeating the same long explanations every time you mention them. And yes, the world doesn't end at the completion of the MK of Christ. Who ever said it did?

Click to expand...

Oh, I definitely believe in a Millennium! And, I definitely believe that Yeshua` haMashiach Elohiym (Jesus the Messiah of God) will be reigning as “haMelekh Yisra’el” (“the King of Isra’el) from Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) as He becomes “haMelekh M’lakhiym” (the King of Kings) for the world! However, my point was this: Don’t LIMIT His reign to a mere 1000 years! His reign as World Emperor (“King of Kings,” as Nebuchadnezzar was called) will be limited to 1000 years, but His reign over Isra’el is forever! (Luke 1:30-33) When all enemies have been subdued, He will then turn over the rulership of the world to His Father and be subject to Him that God may be all in all! (1 Cor. 15:20-28)

Next, while the city from above the sky, the New Jerusalem, is CURRENTLY a "mobile city," it will not always be so. Once the New Earth has been re-created after the Fire, the foundations of the city will be sunk into the New Earth's crust. Although I believe that the other eleven foundations are foundational levels to the three-dimensional city anchored in the walls of the city, the first foundation at least should be what a FOUNDATION is! I do not read that it will ever be moved again.

The street of the city will probably be much wider than the streets we are used to traveling. However, if the river is in the MIDST of the street, to where is it flowing? A river is a steady flow of water - hence, "LIVING" water - flowing from its source to an egress, such as a lake, an ocean or a stagnant sea. It has to flow SOMEWHERE! If the city's street were simply a plaza, where is the river relative to it? I'll stick with the idea that the river follows the street to the gates of the city.

Furthermore, why would one think that the whole street was all one huge plaza?! The New Jerusalem is called a “paradeisos” or a “pardec!” A PARK or AN ORCHARD! It’s ALIVE with LIFE, not dead like a parking lot!

Also, don’t forget that this is a THREE-DIMENSIONAL CITY! It’s length, width, AND HEIGHT are all said to be 12,000 furlongs! And, if one uses the fact that this is the Greek word “stadia” for “furlongs” which comes from the Roman word “stadium,” then we are talking about a height of 12,000 furlongs x 660 feet / furlong x 1 mile / 5280 feet = 1,500 MILES! Mount Everest is only 5.5 miles high! Don’t be limited to a mere plateau or plaza! Think 3-D!

The Scriptures subtilely describe the city in sufficient detail to make such statements: For instance, by using the word “ouranos” in Rev. 21:2 as to from where the city descended, Yochanan has effectively given us the information that the city lands upon the New Earth.

Here’s how: Conservatively, at least 99% of the current atmosphere around our planet is found approximately within the first 500 miles from the earth’s surface. Beyond that point, the air thins until it is mostly empty space. At 1,500 miles high, the New Jerusalem would TOWER above the earth’s atmosphere! If it were landed and centered at Jerusalem today, one could see the bright red tip of the throneroom at the pinnacle from Morocco to China, and from Sweden to Tanzania!

The author of Hebrews called it currently an “epouranios” city, a city from “above the ouranos,” but it descends FROM the “ouranos,” the atmosphere, according to Yochanan (John)! If it comes that close to the earth, within 500 miles of it’s 1,500-mile height, it may as well LAND! In fact, Yochanan uses the word “ex” meaning “out or away from,” suggesting that it comes OUT of the sky! There’s no middle ground here. If the atmosphere touches the earth everywhere, then when the New Jerusalem comes out of the sky, it comes in contact with the earth! It won’t be just hovering above the ground! In fact, to do so would take an enormous amount of energy, assuming that gravity – one of God’s natural forces in the universe – hasn’t changed.

If one assumes that the New Earth will have similar dimensions to those of the current Earth, a length and width of 1,500 miles makes a HUGE difference in how one must perceive this city. 1,500 miles / 24,902 miles x 360 degrees = 21.685 degrees of the earth’s circumference! That means that “down” at the middle gate on one side of the city would be 21.685 degrees different than “down” at the middle gate on the opposite side of the city! That fact alone DESTROYS the “cube-shape” theory! If it were a true cube, then it’s bottom side would be several miles longer than the top side of the cube in both directions! It would still look like the sides were slanting in by 21.685 / 2 = 10.8425 degrees!

If one tried to keep the walls perpendicular to the earth’s surface, then the actual shape of the city would not look like a cube at all but like a trapezoid from 4000 miles away!

However, a pyramid shape with a height of 1,500 miles at its center would have a pinnacle angle of a little more than 53 degrees. The base angles from the middle gates of either side of the city would be more than 63 degrees, but those angles are also decreased by that 10.8425-degree slant, making them also a little more than 53 degrees! Thus, the perspective at the gates of the city would be such that one might interpret the length the same as the pinnacle’s height! And yet, at a distance of 4000 miles, one could still see that the height was literally the same as it’s width!

One must use a little spherical geometry to calculate more, but the angle is much more pronounced if one considers the distance from a corner of the city to the opposite corner, especially since the curvature of the earth falls away from the corners more dramatically than the distance across a simple, planar square (square root of 2 x the width of the city)!

And, this is just the beginning of what can be deduced from what is written in Rev. 21 and 22!

Sure, I’ve speculated here, but only within the realm of what we know about our present earth and how it might relate to the future third earth, the New Earth. We can learn much about this city and the earth upon which it will sit when we just take the information we are given LITERALLY and take that information to its logical conclusion.

Just one more example: Knowing that the gates of the city are arranged such that three gates are on each of the four sides of the city, the total perimeter of the city being 4 x 1,500 miles = 6,000 miles, we may conclude that the gates are probably 6000 miles / 12 gates = 500 miles between gates! This suggests that the central gate on a side is 500 miles removed from the adjacent gates on that side and that the adjacent gates are then 250 miles from their nearest corners of the city! That means that the gates on the north and south sides of the city are TIME ZONES away from each other!

BibleScirbe wrote: If I might, -- satan cannot obtain subservience by default

I agree, however... I also "think" a piece of this puzzle requires more research. See, I can say... One of the reasons Satan cannot obtain subservience by default IS because the Rapture prevents it at that time.

Zion is where Jesus is right now.It is a spiritual place in the heavenlies...as in..we are seated in the heavens (with Christ) and our life is HID with God. We are there with Him right now if we are walking in the Spirit. When Zion comes to the physical plane of earth it will become the new Jerusalem and all those who abide with Christ will live there as the bride of Christ.

i found this and thought this was very interesting

paul was pre trib

By most accounts Paul stayed in Thessalonica for only about 3 weeks and during that time he founded a Church and taught them the doctrines of salvation and sanctification, the Trinity, the nature of man, the assurance of pardon, and the Day of the Lord. He continued teaching them after he left with his first letter, written from Corinth in 51 AD, in which he introduced the doctrine of the rapture (1 Thes. 4:16-17). Shortly after that they received another letter appearing to be from him, announcing that the Day of the Lord had come. They reacted with fear and confusion and immediately sought clarification.
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus and our being gathered to Him, we ask you brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy report or letter supposed to have come from us saying that the Day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let any one deceive you in any way for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. (2 Thes 2:1-3)
From Paul’s response it’s clear the previous letter had been a forgery, sent by someone pretending to be him and designed to frighten them. It worked. The Greek words for unsettle and alarm literally mean to agitate, incite, and frighten. Something in the letter had contradicted their understanding of his teaching and they were upset. Reading 2 Thes 2:1-3 we see that the forgery must have disputed Paul’s teaching on events leading up to the Day of the Lord. This is the only logical explanation for his 2nd letter to the Thessalonians.
Notice that right from the beginning Paul separated the coming of the Lord from our being gathered to Him. That’s because they’re two different events. We can’t tell their relative timing from this, but we can tell they’re not the same thing. One is when He comes back down to Earth, while from 1 Thes. 4:16-17 we know the other has us going up to meet Him in the air and continuing to Heaven. The 2nd coming will be witnessed by everyone (Matt. 24:30), but the rapture is an instantaneous disappearance (1 Cor. 15:51-52) that happens without warning.
Everything That Was Written In The Past Was Written To Teach Us

This quote from Romans 15:4 tells us that Paul wasn’t just writing to the Thessalonian believers. He was also writing to us. Think about it. The Day of the Lord is a term that always refers to the End Times and most often to the Great Tribulation. If Paul had taught them to expect a post-tribulation rapture would they have been agitated and frightened upon receiving the forgery? No! It would more likely have made them think the 2nd coming was only a few years away and many of them would live to see it.
The only justification for their fear and confusion would be if Paul had taught them a pre-trib rapture. In that case a letter telling them the Day of the Lord had come would mean they had missed the rapture, and that would mean they weren’t saved. Now we can see how they would be agitated, angry and afraid. Imagine how you would you feel in a situation like that.
From 2 Thes 2:1-3 we can begin to construct Paul’s teaching on the chronology of events leading up to the Day of the Lord. Remember, there’s an abundance of proof from his other letters showing that Paul taught the doctrine of eternal security, aka once saved always saved. Some of the most obvious references are Romans 8:38-39, Romans 10:9-10, 2 Cor 1:21-22, Ephes. 1:13-14, and Titus 3:4-7. In all of them Paul taught that true believers cannot fall away from faith for any reason. He said the Lord guaranteed our inheritance and sealed the Holy Spirit inside us as a deposit.
But Paul spoke of a rebellion (falling away) in 2 Thes 2:3 that would have to precede the Day of the Lord. The Greek word translated rebellion is apostasia, from which we get apostasy. It means people would abandon something they once considered themselves to be part of and the context implies that it’s the church. You can’t fall away from something unless you first think of yourself as being part of it. But true believers can’t fall away at all. Therefore this rebellion or apostasy has to manifest itself in what’s left of the church after the rapture removes all the true believers.
Don’t be confused about this. We see believers-in-name-only leaving traditional churches to join the Emerging Church all around us, but rebellion is as much attitude as it is action and they don’t think they’re rebelling against God. They see themselves as still being in the Church. In fact they think they’re the best part of it. Far from being rebellious, they call themselves followers of Christ, not just believers in him, and doers of the word, not just hearers. They’re not sitting in Churches on Sunday listening to the same tired old messages on sin and salvation and coming forward to be born again. No. They’re out there in the world, thinking they’re changing it for Jesus.
These advocates of the so-called social gospel don’t realize it’s not what you do for the Lord that matters, it’s what you believe He’s done for you. The only work the Lord requires of us is that we believe in the one He sent (John 6:29). That means to believe God chose to send His Son to Earth to die for our sins so we can choose to live with Him in Eternity (John 3:16). The righteous work of a thousand lifetimes will not suffice in place of this belief.
When these believers-in-name-only discover we’ve disappeared while they’ve been left behind, that’s when they’ll rebel against God and join the other side. By the time the anti-Christ makes his claim to deity, the whole world will follow him (Rev. 13:8) and they’ll be right in the forefront.
The End Times According To Paul

He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Thes. 2:4)
After the rapture and the falling away of believers-in-name-only into His world-wide counterfeit religion, the anti-Christ will be revealed for who he really is by proclaiming himself to be God. Remember, the sequence Paul gave was first the apostasy, and then the man of lawlessness will be revealed.
For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming (2 Thes. 2:7-8).
Here Paul confirmed this sequence, saying a restrainer is currently holding things back. After the restrainer is taken out of the way the anti-Christ will be revealed. This restrainer is the Holy Spirit, sealed within the Church. After the rapture, the Holy Spirit will be out of the way, the rebellion will take place, and the anti-Christ will be revealed. These things can’t happen until the church is gone.
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness (2 Thes. 2:9-12).
Most likely, the anti-Christ will already be known as a great statesman and leader, but by declaring himself to be God he’ll be laying claim to Planet Earth. This claim will kick off the Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:15-21) and will be accompanied by all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders that will deceive those who have fallen away into thinking they have finally found the truth. But in reality they will have rejected the truth and embraced a lie. At the end of the Great Tribulation the Lord will return to over throw the anti-Christ and destroy him by the splendor of His coming and those who believe the lie will perish as well.
In his letters to the Thessalonians Paul didn’t reveal the actual timing of the Rapture except as it relates to other events. It may be one of the things he was forbidden to speak about (2 Cor. 12:4). All we know is for reasons of His own the Lord has never given us a specific date for the rapture. But by carefully studying passages describing it and maintaining the view that the Bible cannot contradict itself, the astute believer can obey the commandment to “know the times and seasons” and construct with some assurance the correct sequence of events. Paul criticized the Thessalonians for not figuring this out back then (2 Thes 2:5) and would even more strongly criticize the church today for the same reason. Selah. 11-05-11