Biblically Questioning the Creeds

@HammerStone @Angelina @Brent W @1forrest

I am new here and so looking over the forum's statement of faith as closed handed issues, I am not sure why you would add affirming the Apostle's creed and the Nicene's creed to it.

BTW You probably should specify which Nicene creed you are referring to in your Statement of Faith; is it the "historic" as in the original in 325 A.D. or the modified one in 381 A.D.?

Anyway... here is why I am questioning both of those the creeds in relations to your statement of faith.

You began with "We believe that God is the Creator, Sustainer, and Ruler of the universe. We attest that God has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God."

But both creeds assign the Father alone to that credit & glory.

Apostle creed begins with "I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth."

Nicene creed of 325 A.D. begins with "We believe in one God, the Father, Ruler of All, Maker of all things visible and invisible;

The modified Nicene creed of 381 A.D. begins with "I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible."

So am I to assume that since you agree with the creeds, does that mean God in your opening statement is only referring to the Father, and not inferring to God as in all Three Persons by the statement following it?

I know this is supposed to be a close-handed issue but I am confused as to where you stand.

I had to cut that OP short, but here is why I am biblically questioning the creeds in continuing from the OP.

I believe the Son is the Creator but with the Witnesses of the Father & The Holy Spirit in agreement to the Father's permissive will, for how the Son established a word in creation. That is what I had thought you were originally alluding to in referring to God & the Three Persons within that One God.

As it is, the Bible clearly testify to the Son as being the Creator. This does not mean the Father & the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with it because "They" did as per the Father's permissive will and the Holy Spirit in compliance as I believe the Son made the request to make man in "our" image and after "our" likeness in how He has created everything else.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made....

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So does that make that opening part of the forum's Statement of Faith and the two creeds an open-handed issue rather than a close-handed issue?

Is it possible for a Christian forum to Biblically prove all things with His help, including what is in their Statement of Faith & reform it, if and when it is necessary, like the Bereans?

As it is, I had posted this in this forum even though I am a believer in Jesus Christ. You had considered it a close handed issue, but your opening statement of faith does not really align with your confirmation of those two creeds as to Who the Creator is & Biblically too.

Am I in trouble or can you discern that I am being sincere in addressing this issue in Christ's love as a Christian?

amadeus said:

@Christ4Me Welcome to the forum and do not be too strongly concerned that you must embrace any creed or statement of faith. You are allowed to discuss them so long as you do not outright condemn them or individuals here. I am not a moderator. One of them will likely be here to respond to you more directly later. In the interim browse some the on-going threads which may be of interest to you.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the welcome & the suggestion, brother.

Best I wait for a moderator before I feel at liberty to post in this forum as a "Christian" which I think this forum prefers I be identified by what is known as Orthodox Christianity which is by their Statement of Faith to be registered as a "Christian".

I may have misunderstood the parameters at that web page for their Statement of Faith at my registration, but I don't think so, but being unsure, is why I am asking the question here.

Not sure if my questioning the creeds by the scripture in that statement of faith could be seen as challenging the statement of faith & the creeds, or when "reproving" them by the scripture, and thereby be seen as condemning them?

I had always thought every believer is a Christian but when it comes to discipleship, is how we learn & grow in the Lord by the scriptures, but if this forum is specific to a certain faith group, and their statement of faith is not to be questioned, or corrected by scripture like this forum did Statement of Purpose - Site Rules- Updated 8-27-18, then Brent W , whom is also an Admin there, may tell me that it is the same here.

I left that forum voluntarily because I did not want to cause trouble if I honestly disagree with something Biblically for why they say I could not post in ( Christians Only ) parts of the forum. I know one polite staff reasoned me as Unorthodox & "helped" changed my title from Christian to Unorthodox, & therefore not allowed to post in "Christians Only" but it just seems like I would be denying Him for not posting in those forums when I am a Christian. I told that polite staff member what I believe in our private conversation so he would know where I was coming from, but after getting a ticket from him for doing that, and it had to don on me for a bit to make sense of what had happened regarding that ticket, then I replied that I should leave, leaving a complaint on my way out.

It was kind of strict after all even though I was misled by a thread in that forum in joining for why I had thought maybe the rules were lax and we were allowed to share Biblically why there were no scriptures for worshipping the Holy Ghost.

Is the Holy Spirit ever worshiped in Scripture? | Christian Forums

I did not post that thread but that was the thread that led me to join as "Hark" in sharing scriptures for why there were no scriptures about worshiping the Holy Spirit.

Since Brent W is also Admin here, I really do not know how to proceed in this forum or if I am really allowed to, even though I still am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God has raised Him from the dead and am saved and therefore a Christian.

Hoping the Admin Brent W may respond if the rules in this form is more lax than that other forum he had set up.

If not, I really do not know how anyone can grow in the Lord if no one can defend their statement of faith by the actual scripture. It just seems that other forum could not defend nor will take the time to teach it by the scripture, and those scriptural reference(s) for each line of the Nicene creed does not really prove every line in that Nicene creed.

I would think a Christian should be able to ask any question at a Christian forum what they cannot do at a church, especially when scriptures opposes a teaching for why they are asking honest questions or sharing a contention.

But if I am not allowed, then I am not allowed.

Hopefully, you can understand why I am hesitant to proceed per your suggestion. I may not belong here at all.

GRACE ambassador said:

Precious friend, Yes, we are Both probably in trouble, being in agreement with
God's Preserved Word, and standing against spiritual warfare, and man-made
creeds/doctrines/teachings, doing our best to discuss These Important Matters, to make HIS Word Of Truth known, "planting/watering Seeds Of Truth" in love, so that, perchance, some hungry soul, reading here, may:

"Be SET FREE." (Only "God Gives The Increase!" 1Co 3:6)

May God Grant us HIS Amazing GRACE, after "having done all, to STAND in this day of evil." Amen.

Looking forward to meeting you in God’s Great GloryLand! ♫ ↑

Click to expand...

Does Brent W give more lee way to do that here than that other forum he had set up? I hope so.

If you can post that, surely I can.

Is it only in this forum that we are allow to correct or prove the man-made creeds here by the scripture?

Or is there another sub forum for Christians to discuss that freely in by His love?

Jane_Doe22 said:

This forum does not require a person to hold to any Creed.

Click to expand...

Thank you. I know I was told this, but I was waiting from Brent W the Admin for actual confirmation from him.

I reckon I shall freely post as the Lord leads until otherwise informed by Brent W.

Thanks again.

Enoch111 said:

The Bible frequently refers to God as the Creator. The Bible also specifies that the Word (the eternal Son, the Lord Jesus Christ) is the Creator. And since He is the second person of the triune Godhead, there is really no conflict. In the Bible we see that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were all involved in creation.

Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.(Isa 40:28).

Click to expand...

Since there was an unexplained 3 hours of darkness at Jesus's crucifixion, when Jesus took our sins upon Himself and had experienced that separation from the Father, I do believe because of Jesus being our Creator when He did that, somehow that was shown in creation by the light of the sun going out and also the light of the full moon by it. That tells me that was when Jesus as the Creator becoming Our Redeemer on the cross.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

That prophesy was fulfilled at Jesus's water baptism when God the Father & the Holy Spirit sent God Our Redeemer..

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (Gen 1:2)

"The everlasting God" can be taken to mean either (a) God the Father or (b) the triune Godhead. "The LORD" can be taken to mean either (a) the Father or (b) the Son. This is the Mystery of God the Father, and of Christ. Then we see the Spirit of God (God the Holy Spirit) involved in creation.

Click to expand...

I know the Holy Spirit was involved in creation as another Witness for when the Father permitted the Son's request in creation, thus the Father adding His witness to the Son's in establishing a word in creation, but Genesis 1:2 does not really testify of the Spirit of God creating anything but moving upon the face of the waters.

The thing is, is how the Holy Spirit serves Jesus Christ in ministry now in how He defers everything that He does to give all the credit & glory to Jesus Christ.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Scripture agrees.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:... 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

So I believe that is how it is in the act of creation as Jesus is the Word of God for by how everything was made with the Father & the Spirit as Witnesses with Jesus for Jesus to establish a word in creation.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made..... 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

It is because scripture & the Spirit does go out of the way to give that credit & glory to Jesus Christ as Our Creator, Redeemer, & Head of the Church, the Good Shepherd, the coming Bridegroom, & the coming the King of kings, is why I believe we should too.

@GRACE ambassador

Another thing about the Nicene Creed of 381 A.D. is this line here:

"Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)"

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

But that scripture reference does not really prove that line in the Nicene creed. It does not teach for the practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son. All that testifies about was that the Holy Spirit added His witness to the Father's witness that Jesus is His Son and thus God.

There are no scripture teaching the practice of worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, but there are scripture testifying to the role of the Holy Spirit as the divine Witness for why He would not lead a believer to testify of Himself in seeking His own glory, but to testify of the Son in seeking His glory.

These are His words for what makes us & the Holy Spirit true witnesses.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Since that is to be true for us as witnesses, so it is with the Holy Spirit. More proof;

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

So the Holy Spirit's job is to testify of the Son to glorify the Son thru us and that has to include worship & not just ministry.

Consider this as a judgment over each believer as forewarned by Christ Jesus as applicable towards worship.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

So the moment any believer stops honoring the Son in worship, they are no longer honoring the Father, even if it is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God of the Triune God, but scripture tells us specifically how the Father wants to be honored and that is by the only way of the Son as the Holy Spirit leads us in worship to do as the Holy Spirit seeks to do thru us. He is a faithful Witness as we should be too.

Believers read this verse many times, applying his to be about Jesus being the only way for salvation, but They need His wisdom to heed His words that He is the only way to come to the Father by in worship, fellowship, & prayer.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me...... 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

So people praying to the Holy Spirit are not honoring the Son as the only Mediator between God and men. People worshipping the Holy Spirit are not led by the Holy Spirit to do that nor are they heeding the Father's will for how He wishes for us to honor Him only by and that is His Son.

They need His help to see the truth in His words for why they need to narrow the way back to the straight gate in coming to God the Father in worship, fellowship, & prayer by the only way of His Son.

@GRACE ambassador A shorter, different version of the same post above.

The only reason it is not so particularly obvious about worshiping the Holy Spirit in scripture is because there are scripture telling us otherwise. This is not to testify that the Holy Spirit is not God, but to testify what the Holy Spirit has been sent to do as the Divine Witness through us which is to lead us not to speak of ourselves nor the Holy Spirit, Himself, but of the Son in seeking His glory and that is how the Holy Spirit & us are faithful witnesses when we do as the Holy Spirit leads us to do in what He has been sent to do.

A witness cannot speak of himself in seeking his own glory les there be unrighteousness in him per John 5:31 & John 7:18. This is true for the Holy Spirit as there can be no unrighteousness in God.

John 15:26-27 testify to Who the Holy Spirit will testify of and that is through us. The point of testifying of the Son is to seek His glory per John 16:13-14. The Holy Spirit will not witness in any other way so when believers testify of the Holy Spirit in seeking His glory, even in worship, they do so as not led by the Holy Spirit to do.

In the world of sinners by how they worship spirits & address the spirit, he only way God the Father can call them away from that rudiment and practice is to provide only one way to come to the Father & that is by the only way of the Son. That way, sinners know they are coming to God the Father and not those spirits they are repenting from. The church can know that these sinners have repented by not praying to or calling for the spirit to come into the worship place.

The Holy Spirit is God, but when you heed His words as the Son is the only way to come to God the Father by per John 14:6 and how only the Son answers prayers once He has the Father's approval, per John 14:13-14, and any part the Holy Spirit does in ministry or the answers to prayers, He defers all credit & glory to the Son per John 16:13-15 and so should we as well in honoring the Son.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

@GRACE ambassador

Three lines from the Nicene creed of 381 A.D.

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)

Acts 5:3-4 does not really address the Holy Spirit as the "Lord", but as God. 2 Corinthians 3:17 would be a better reference, but addressing how the Lord is that Spirit. Is there a difference? May the Lord correct me, but there is an error for sure in the next line.

the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)

There is that line crediting the Holy Spirit as the Giver of Life with the scriptural reference of Genesis 1:2 but that scripture has nothing to do with proving that line other than the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Some Bible versions has capitalized spirit in 2 Corinthians 3:6 and that would be a better one to use for that line BUT, the KJV and a few other modern Bibles has kept it small s for spirit, and therefore not referring to the Person of the Holy Spirit at all.

The contention grows when Jesus is the bread of life that gives life to the world in John 6:30-35

So the discernment with His help as to which scripture is correct. We could haggle over 2 Corinthians 3:6 over the different Bible versions, but that would not solve anything. But the question as to Who is really the Giver of Life between 2 Corinthians 3:6 & John 6:30-36 is the question as to which Bible version is correct since some have it as spirit rather than Spirit.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Scripture is supposed to testify of Jesus in coming to Him for life. There are more; 1 John 5:11-13 1 John 5:20

To me, that settles any uncertainty of 2 Corinthians 3:6 being spirit rather than the Holy Spirit, especially when I consider that the Holy Spirit would defer everything that He does in order to glorify Jesus Christ. John 16:13-15 So Jesus Christ is the Giver of Life as scripture plainly states & why.

amadeus said:

@Brent W is rarely if ever around anymore, but I will tag some other active moderator/Administrators.

@lforrest @Angelina @Heart2Soul

One or more of them should respond here to you.

Click to expand...

Okay. Thank you, brother.

Angelina said:

I don't know what creed HS was talking about because I hardly know anything about creeds but HS [Hammerstone] the original creator and owner of this forum did know and so he added that to our SoF I think. HS was a Trinitarian believer. Say no more....

Click to expand...

Okay. If you are the Admin now, what did you mean "Say no more.."? You mean I can post freely then or ...?

FYI I believe in the Triune God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but it is how they make assumptions from the Trinity doctrine that I am finding per the Nicene creed that it is not really lining up with the scripture reference they have given for certain lines.

Like worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son per Matthew 3:16-17 addressed in post # 12-13 in this thread and the Holy Spirit being the Giver of Life per Genesis 1:2 addressed in post # 15 in this thread.

Just explaining other than the first example in the OP, why I question the Statement of Faith along with those creeds because scripture seems to give that credit specifically to Jesus Christ, even though He did it as the Triune God, having the Father's permissive will & the agreement of the Spirit.

So I assume it is okay for me to be in the forum posting my beliefs per scripture as the Lord enables me, yet being open to correction by the scripture from the Lord thru a brother or sister if I was not rightly dividing the word of truth, since scripture cannot go against scripture, I trust Him to help me to receive that correction so I may bear more fruit in abiding in His words and therefore following Him as His disciple.