Biblically Questioning the Creeds

Christ4Me · Jan 7, 2022

@Angelina & @amadeus I had not initially tagged you guys only because you were interested in helping me feel free to post in the forum and I do thank you both for that. However, if you wish to add to my inquiry here as the Lord leads, do feel free to do so. Thanks.

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

I believe it was wrong for me to apply 2 Corinthians 3:17 of the Lord to the Holy Spirit when that reference was about the Lord Jesus being that Spirit. Is there another reference that better suit that line or is that not another line that should be discarded as not really Biblically correct when we should be honoring the Son alone in any creed if we seek to honor the Father which the Holy Spirit in us & scripture leads us to do?

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Seems the Holy Spirit would defer all the spotlight away from Himself to keep that spotlight on the Son as the scripture does too.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Anyway, if you feel led by the Lord to share on this subject, feel free to do so since you guys helped me to feel free to post in the forum.

Angelina · Jan 7, 2022

You are not new here are you bro?

Episkopos · Jan 7, 2022

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)

That name is Jesus...not Father Son and Spirit. Not positions but a name...the name of the unique Mediator between the Father and His people.

The doctors of the law saw fit to limit God in their bid for control over the church. The first disciples were to wait on the Lord for POWER from heaven. If you can't control the Spirit then you can't control the church. So instead of waiting on the power and life of the Spirit men became satisfied with a name...a name only...that could back up or represent anything that men were doing. Negating the power of the Spirit was necessary to maintain control over the assembly. Otherwise how could men explain why they lacked the power of the Spirit in their demand for obedience to their ordinances? So the power and life of the Spirit was exchanged for just saying a name...so that men could administer their own authority apart from God being involved in confirming what is His will. Will we follow the will of men as if God was not interested in empowering and confirming His own church?

From the creeds comes the institutional version of the church. For every genuine work of God there must be a counterfeit. Now everyone assumes that what has been established doctrinally must come from God. There is a desire in man to trust what other men have done. it is the easier road...but a road that does NOT lead to life. The way is very narrow because we must stop doing what everyone else is doing in order to look to God. VERY few will do this. Most will go along following other sheep instead of the Shepherd. On judgment day these will say...but I did everything they told me to do!!!!

faith is to be toward God not men. Men trust men...but faith in God means leaving that trust behind. There is a curse associated with trusting in men rather than God. People end up defending the rights of men to say what they want...in the face of God. It was the same in the time of Jesus. It is always the same difficulty to see through what the devil is trying to manipulate people into believing.

The trinity issue is actually a very basic problem of adding 1 plus 1 and getting 3.

God's Spirit is part of His Person...not a separate Person. Paul declares that God's Spirit is as much a part of Him as our own spirit is part of us. Is our spirit a separate person from us?

1 Cor. 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Here is a direct comparison by Paul of God's Spirit being as our own spirit within us. The difference is that God's Spirit is what is able to endlessly pour out to His people ...His life...and ours is a limited container that receives His life...from His Spirit into ours.

Are we to receive from men and their religious establishments or from God? Many have been deceived by the great delusion. We must learn to discern the origin of what we believe in.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

(Now the spirit of the world is not a person either.)

Do we want to walk as Jesus walked? We will not receive that powerful grace from men. God wants us to trust in Him exclusively and seek His face rather than hide behind religious dogmatic formulas that bring no life.

Peace.

Christ4Me · Jan 7, 2022

Angelina said:
You are not new here are you bro?

It has been a while for why I was asking, but my folks got a new computer & a new internet service, and so I am not new in that regard.

I forgot what username I came under when I was here before, so I cannot help you there.

But being "new" in some Christian forums like Christianforums.com recently, and because of that one thread, I had thought the requirement for registering as a "Christian" there per their Statement of Faith, were laxed now for why I had joined, but eventually I had found that they were not.

So even though I am sure I had been here before, I was asking to make sure it was okay in case the requirement of this forum to be identified as a "Christian" by, was the same as that other forum since it was also set up by Brent W.

You and several members assured me that it is not the same as that other forum for why I am posting freely here now. Thank you.

Christ4Me · Jan 7, 2022

Thank you for sharing. I do have some questions for you.

Episkopos said:
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)

That name is Jesus...not Father Son and Spirit. Not positions but a name...the name of the unique Mediator between the Father and His people.

Couldn't Matthew 28:18-20 be taken as testifying how Jesus is God of the Triune God?

The doctors of the law saw fit to limit God in their bid for control over the church. The first disciples were to wait on the Lord for POWER from heaven. If you can't control the Spirit then you can't control the church. So instead of waiting on the power and life of the Spirit men became satisfied with a name...a name only...that could back up or represent anything that men were doing. Negating the power of the Spirit was necessary to maintain control over the assembly. Otherwise how could men explain why they lacked the power of the Spirit in their demand for obedience to their ordinances? So the power and life of the Spirit was exchanged for just saying a name...so that men could administer their own authority apart from God being involved in confirming what is His will. Will we follow the will of men as if God was not interested in empowering and confirming His own church?

1 Corinthians 11:1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

I am not sure how ordinances can negate the power of the Spirit when Paul had given ordinances too. Can you cite an ordinance that can negate the power of the Holy Spirit in believers?

Christ4Me · Jan 7, 2022

Episkopos said:
From the creeds comes the institutional version of the church. For every genuine work of God there must be a counterfeit. Now everyone assumes that what has been established doctrinally must come from God. There is a desire in man to trust what other men have done. it is the easier road...but a road that does NOT lead to life. The way is very narrow because we must stop doing what everyone else is doing in order to look to God. VERY few will do this. Most will go along following other sheep instead of the Shepherd. On judgment day these will say...but I did everything they told me to do!!!!

I do wonder if the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes is subjecting to an authority outside the Word of God whereas the deeds of the Nicolaitanes was sexual immorality. If it is so, then the Presbytery today is not the Presbytery back then where they were IN that city to be held to the same Word of God that the church in that city were. The Presbytery today are distant and has authority to change the ordinance(s) that all the churches and therefore the pastors that are under their employment, are to adhere to; hence conquest of the laity which is the meaning of the name Nicolaitanes. If a Presbytery make compromises with social values in society, how can any church or all of those churches remove those unrepentant leaders from that Presbytery to install Biblical ones? Or how a Presbytery can impose heretical teachings as an ordinance?

No one knows them nor how they got elected or employed to that position in that Presbytery, but it seems the churches allow them to get away with making themselves above the Word of God.

Pertaining to creeds, any council outside the church, is usurping the authority of the Word of God. They may look like they are trying to do good but Jesus warned about false prophets coming in and the creeds are ecumenical in nature that it can be seen as the fruit of the false prophet as gathering grapes of thorns and figs of thistles. Matthew 7:15-16 As it is, error can be crept into the churches by the man made creeds.

One has to wonder in spite of all the wonderful works of God, and casting out of demons and so forth in how these professing believers were judged by the Lord as workers of iniquity in Matthew 7:21-23

Then you have His words after that about how those who do not heed His words, fall in Matthew 7:24-27

Looking back for the Lord to show me what that iniquity is, I see Matthew 7:13-14 for how they broaden the way in coming to God the Father.

The modified Nicene creed of 381 A.D. did that by introducing the practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son which is nowhere found in scripture per the Word of God. Jesus is the only way in coming to God the father by in worship : John 14:6 Climbing up any other way is a thief for why many are following a stranger's voice; tongues without interpretation and thus assumed for private use John 10:1-5.

I had applied all of those verses as addressing those who put their focus on the Holy Spirit in worship for why those who seek another baptism with the Holy Ghost with "evidence of tongues", to Toronto's Blessings, to Pensacola Outpouring, to being slain in the spirit, to holy laughter movement, to even Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade where he would announce the Holy Spirit calling on believers to cause them to fall in bringing about supposedly miracles or even a casting out of demons. Do they not all fall for not coming to the Son but to the Holy Spirit for those things to happen?

So creeds can lead one astray to supernatural phenomenon by God "negating" the restraining part of the Holy Spirit in them for believing a lie for why God would allow the strong delusion to occur. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 Paul reproved that lie by reminding believers of the tradition taught of us for the only time we would receive the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth and that was at the calling of the gospel 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15

It is something worth noting as Jesus did describe how bad it will be in the latter days for how faith will be hard to find. Luke 18:7-8 & Matthew 7:13-14 That is why believers & churches need His help to narrow he way back to the straight gate in worship or else; John 5:22-23 Luke 13:24-30

Christ4Me · Jan 7, 2022

Episkopos said:
faith is to be toward God not men. Men trust men...but faith in God means leaving that trust behind. There is a curse associated with trusting in men rather than God. People end up defending the rights of men to say what they want...in the face of God. It was the same in the time of Jesus. It is always the same difficulty to see through what the devil is trying to manipulate people into believing.

But we should keep in mind that it is not only religious dead works that deny Him ( Titus 1:16 ) but supernatural ones as well. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

The trinity issue is actually a very basic problem of adding 1 plus 1 and getting 3.

God's Spirit is part of His Person...not a separate Person. Paul declares that God's Spirit is as much a part of Him as our own spirit is part of us. Is our spirit a separate person from us?

1 Cor. 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Here is a direct comparison by Paul of God's Spirit being as our own spirit within us. The difference is that God's Spirit is what is able to endlessly pour out to His people ...His life...and ours is a limited container that receives His life...from His Spirit into ours.

Are we to receive from men and their religious establishments or from God? Many have been deceived by the great delusion. We must learn to discern the origin of what we believe in.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

(Now the spirit of the world is not a person either.)

Do we want to walk as Jesus walked? We will not receive that powerful grace from men. God wants us to trust in Him exclusively and seek His face rather than hide behind religious dogmatic formulas that bring no life.

Peace.

We should consider how Jesus addressed the Holy Spirit as a Person by the job title of Comforter and what He is to do in doing that job.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jesus even explained how the Holy Spirit will not speak from Himself, but speak what He hears, as His other job is to guide us in all truth and to glorify Jesus Christ in John 16:13-15

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Then we have Paul waning us not to grieve the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Paul explained how the Holy Spirit makes intercessions for us silently, whereby "he" that searches our hearts ( Jesus per Hebrews 4:12-16 ) is the One that knows the mind of the Spirit to give the Spirit's silent intercessions for us to the Father.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. KJV

That is a promise for every believer and not what modern day tongue speakers are claiming what tongues in private use are for, therefore that tongue for private use is not of Him at all, because the Holy Spirit cannot speak from Himself, but speaks what He ears John 16:13 again.

Since the Lord bothers to know the mind of the Spirit Whom makes silent intercessions for us so that the Son may give His silent intercessions to the Father, then the Holy Spirit is Another Person for why I believe there are Three Witnesses within the One God.

Episkopos · Jan 7, 2022

Christ4Me said:
Thank you for sharing. I do have some questions for you.

Couldn't Matthew 28:18-20 be taken as testifying how Jesus is God of the Triune God?

1 Corinthians 11:1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

I am not sure how ordinances can negate the power of the Spirit when Paul had given ordinances too. Can you cite an ordinance that can negate the power of the Holy Spirit in believers?

Greetings C4M!

I think it is easy to miss how spiritual Paul became after his conversion. I believe that he admonished the believers who were as he was...seeking to win Christ. Now that doesn't make much sense to a lot of people. How do you win Christ?

The ordinances, or traditions in the NT, are based on kingdom principles regarding the spiritual walk. Such things as sowing to the Spirit, fearing the Lord, remaining humble and avoiding things that build up the outer man...the religious counterfeits.

Paul preached the cross...not what Jesus did...but the power that puts the outer man to death so that the inner man could remain in fellowship with God. So Paul preached having no confidence in the flesh and refraining from vain religious posturing. Paul was running the race towards the high calling...being made conformable to both the death and the life of Jesus.

Paul sought for all disciples to grow into the full stature of Christ. All NT statutes should be to that end. So then we walk in intimacy in God's holiness to grow into the same maturity of character that Jesus walked in. THAT was Paul's primary concern for the body.

Episkopos · Jan 7, 2022

Christ4Me said:
But we should keep in mind that it is not only religious dead works that deny Him ( Titus 1:16 ) but supernatural ones as well. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

We should consider how Jesus addressed the Holy Spirit as a Person by the job title of Comforter and what He is to do in doing that job.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jesus even explained how the Holy Spirit will not speak from Himself, but speak what He hears, as His other job is to guide us in all truth and to glorify Jesus Christ in John 16:13-15

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Then we have Paul waning us not to grieve the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Paul explained how the Holy Spirit makes intercessions for us silently, whereby "he" that searches our hearts ( Jesus per Hebrews 4:12-16 ) is the One that knows the mind of the Spirit to give the Spirit's silent intercessions for us to the Father.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. KJV

That is a promise for every believer and not what modern day tongue speakers are claiming what tongues in private use are for, therefore that tongue for private use is not of Him at all, because the Holy Spirit cannot speak from Himself, but speaks what He ears John 16:13 again.

Since the Lord bothers to know the mind of the Spirit Whom makes silent intercessions for us so that the Son may give His silent intercessions to the Father, then the Holy Spirit is Another Person for why I believe there are Three Witnesses within the One God.

The problem of knowing only English as a language is to not realize that many languages have masculine and feminine genders for every word. Hebrew and Greek are not like English at all. They are more like French with the gender indicators.

For instance in French a table is feminine. So then the table SHE is made of wood.

Now in Greek the Comforter is masculine as in...the Comforter HE is very helpful. But in English that would be an "it".

In English the truth is an "it"...not feminine. In Hebrew it is said Ha-emet hiy shoum davar lo kara. "The truth SHE is that nothing happened." In English we drop the gender to say...the truth IS that nothing happened. No feminine gender required.

Wisdom in Hebrew is feminine....but the Bible translates wisdom with a "she" in Proverbs. But again, English doesn't and therefore shouldn't do this. Is wisdom really a she?

Is the truth really feminine?

So then we need to settle on a language. English does not make Spirit to be feminine nor should comforter be masculine.

In Greek a "he" can also be an "it" ...same as in French. In French we say "He is hot today"....or else "It is hot today." They use the same word "il" as in "Il fait chaud." So how do you translate that? Is it...IT is hot today? Or should we translate it "HE is hot today"?

Do the French believe that the day is a person because the word "il" can mean both "it" and "he"?

So then really it is hard to study the Bible unless you know the languages it was originally written in. Otherwise, the sheer ignorance of not understanding languages makes the bible say many things it isn't saying.

A much better translation would simply say..."The Spirit of truth will guide you into all truth"...without gender.

Christ4Me · Jan 7, 2022

Episkopos said:
Greetings C4M!

Greetings, Episkopos !!

I think it is easy to miss how spiritual Paul became after his conversion. I believe that he admonished the believers who were as he was...seeking to win Christ. Now that doesn't make much sense to a lot of people. How do you win Christ?

Not sure if you are referring to "saving some" by any means or winning Christ in another way?

1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

I believe Paul was referring to Acts 21:23-31 for how he got in trouble for having 4 men as a captive audience to teach them in the Temple.

I know Paul said this:

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

So I believe Paul meant that he would go under the law like taking a vow with those 4 men and use that time to minister unto them in the temple in the hopes that God would minister to them to believe in Him to be saved, not that he, himself, was doing the actual saving.

Or are you referring to this passage about winning Christ below? Paul was talking about how he used to be before a Christian as one under the law.

Philippians 3:1Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

For him to win Christ is to consider all his achievements under the law as that persecuting Saul and consider it dung as opposed to believing in Him and thereby not having his own righteousness which was of the law, but the righteousness which is of God by faith in Jesus Christ, thereby winning Christ.

Was this what you were referring to?

Episkopos · Jan 7, 2022

Christ4Me said:
Greetings, Episkopos !!

Not sure if you are referring to "saving some" by any means or winning Christ in another way?

1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

I believe Paul was referring to Acts 21:23-31 for how he got in trouble for having 4 men as a captive audience to teach them in the Temple.

I know Paul said this:

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

So I believe Paul meant that he would go under the law like taking a vow with those 4 men and use that time to minister unto them in the temple in the hopes that God would minister to them to believe in Him to be saved, not that he, himself, was doing the actual saving.

Or are you referring to this passage about winning Christ below? Paul was talking about how he used to be before a Christian as one under the law.

Philippians 3:1Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

For him to win Christ is to consider all his achievements under the law as that persecuting Saul and consider it dung as opposed to believing in Him and thereby not having his own righteousness which was of the law, but the righteousness which is of God by faith in Jesus Christ, thereby winning Christ.

Was this what you were referring to?

No. You are barking up the wrong tree here. I suggest you look for the right questions before seeking answers with flawed thinking.

Paul sought to have the exact same maturity as Jesus...because he walked in the very same life and power that Jesus did when he walked in the Spirit. The maturity is to REMAIN in the perfection of grace by faith. In Christ we walk exactly as Jesus did. No spot or wrinkle of sin. As long as we keep our focus on Christ in the eternal reality we will overcome ALL THINGS in the temporal reality of this world.

So the bible is going much deeper than what modern believers can normally consider.

Christ4Me · Jan 7, 2022

Episkopos said:
The ordinances, or traditions in the NT, are based on kingdom principles regarding the spiritual walk. Such things as sowing to the Spirit, fearing the Lord, remaining humble and avoiding things that build up the outer man...the religious counterfeits.

Paul preached the cross...not what Jesus did...

But didn't Jesus teach the kingdom principle from which Paul speaks from as far as discipleship goes?

but the power that put the outer man to death so that the inner man could remain in fellowship with God. So Paul preached having no confidence in the flesh and refraining from vain religious posturing. Paul was running the race towards the high calling...being made conformable to both the death and the life of Jesus.

Jesus did say this;

Luke 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

I find His words confirming Paul's words. FYI

Paul sought for all disciples to grow into the full stature of Christ. All NT statutes should be to that end. So then we walk in intimacy in God's holiness to grow into the same maturity of character that Jesus walked in. THAT was Paul's primary concern for the body.

I believe it was what Jesus wanted too, and it came with a warning as Paul did in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27.

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

There can be no loss of salvation for not abiding in Him, but a loss of not being received by the Bridegroom in that kingdom of Heaven.

When I read the first verse of the parable of the ten virgins on Matthew 25:1-13, I see that although the five were shut out for not being ready to attend the Marriage Supper, they were still in His kingdom because the first verse cited that the kingdom of heaven was likened unto them.

So the race to be run which is by faith in Jesus Christ, looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lays aside every weight & sin daily, Hebrews 12:1-2 is not to obtain salvation, but to live this reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ to be received by the Bridegroom.

Christ4Me · Jan 7, 2022

Episkopos said:
The problem of knowing only English as a language is to not realize that many languages have masculine and feminine genders for every word. Hebrew and Greek are not like English at all. They are more like French with the gender indicators.

For instance in French a table is feminine. So then the table SHE is made of wood.

Now in Greek the Comforter is masculine as in...the Comforter HE is very helpful. But in English that would be an "it".

In English the truth is an "it"...not feminine. In Hebrew it is said Ha-emet hiy shoum davar lo kara. "The truth SHE is that nothing happened." In English we drop the gender to say...the truth IS that nothing happened. No feminine gender required.

Wisdom in Hebrew is feminine....but the Bible translates wisdom with a "she" in Proverbs. But again, English doesn't and therefore shouldn't do this. Is wisdom really a she?

Is the truth really feminine?

So then we need to settle on a language. English does not make Spirit to be feminine nor should comforter be masculine.

In Greek a "he" can also be an "it" ...same as in French. In French we say "He is hot today"....or else "It is hot today." They use the same word "il" as in "Il fait chaud." So how do you translate that? Is it...IT is hot today? Or should we translate it "HE is hot today"?

Do the French believe that the day is a person because the word "il" can mean both "it" and "he"?

So then really it is hard to study the Bible unless you know the languages it was originally written in. Otherwise, the sheer ignorance of not understanding languages makes the bible say many things it isn't saying.

A much better translation would simply say..."The Spirit of truth will guide you into all truth"...without gender.

Thank you for sharing, but I still see Jesus referring to Another Person sent by the Father thus separate from the Father, as teaching us, reminding what Jesus has said, and even making silent intercessions for us just as Paul said about the Holy Spirit having a mind.

I do thank you for sharing the nuances of the Hebrew & Greek regarding gender but things can be lost in translation from the Hebrew & Greek, especially when in context of the message given about the Holy Spirit when we resort to what we think is meant back then or even today.

Like say the Greek word, "pnuema" as there are a variety of definitions which means not always referring to the Holy Spirit per Strong's Concordance. So the Greek word is defined by how it is used in context of the message being given.

So it is with assigning the neutral term for the Holy Spirit. In context as being the Spirit of the Father & now the Spirit of Christ, "he" is assigned.

Christ4Me · Jan 7, 2022

Episkopos said:
No. You are barking up the wrong tree here. I suggest you look for the right questions before seeking answers with flawed thinking.

I was asking you for clarification. You readily admit that not everyone understand what you were meaning in that other quote below.

I think it is easy to miss how spiritual Paul became after his conversion. I believe that he admonished the believers who were as he was...seeking to win Christ. Now that doesn't make much sense to a lot of people. How do you win Christ?

I do not know why you assigned "flawed thinking" on my part just for asking questions while trying to guess what you were referring to about.

Paul sought to have the exact same maturity as Jesus...because he walked in the very same life and power that Jesus did when he walked in the Spirit. The maturity is to REMAIN in the perfection of grace by faith. In Christ we walk exactly as Jesus did. No spot or wrinkle of sin. As long as we keep our focus on Christ in the eternal reality we will overcome ALL THINGS in the temporal reality of this world.

So the bible is going much deeper than what modern believers can normally consider.

Paul said he had not obtained perfection yet which is what running that race is for, to be partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection at the rapture.

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. 17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Episkopos · Jan 7, 2022

Christ4Me said:
I was asking you for clarification. You readily admit that not everyone understand what you were meaning in that other quote below.

I do not know why you assigned "flawed thinking" on my part just for asking questions while trying to guess what you were referring to about.

Paul said he had not obtained perfection yet which is what running that race is for, to be partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection at the rapture.

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. 17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

There is a big difference between purity...the perfection of Christ given to us by grace that cleanses us by the blood (life) of Jesus...and the maturity we are to develop that allows us to remain in the spiritual walk of perfection of Christ.

There is a difference between a car and the ability to drive it under all road conditions. The car is the gift and the driving is the skill.

So it is with Christ. We put on Christ as a gift of God's perfection...and we develop the character that sees us do ALL things ONLY through Him....to remain always in Him. If we sin while we are in the Spirit we fall out of the Spirit the same way that Adam fell out of the Spirit when he sinned.

Paul had surely gone in and out of the Spirit a number of times...because he lacked the spiritual maturity to be the same in stature as Jesus. THAT is what discipleship is all about...winning Christ in both grace and character.

We will all be judged by what we have done with what we have been given. To whom much is given more is required.

Ronald David Bruno · Jan 7, 2022

Christ4Me said:
But both creeds assign the Father alone to that credit & glory.

This is a great observation, I never focused too much attention on those creeds. I would have to disagree with all concerning that one statement. We just probably need to insert Elohim as the creator, since all three were in involved. How did they miss Col. 1:16, 17? And then in the beggining, the Spirit was hovering over the waters, was He just observing?
I think our inderstanding of the scriptures has grown exponentially through the centuries. Many corrections of misinterpretations and misunderstandings have been brought to light since then and we are not done yet. We still see dimly. Heck, I think the concept of eternal Hell should have been more scrutinized. Martin Luther also had a problem with it but was warned by Calvin to leave it alone. It was too big. A 96 Theses would have been better.

Episkopos · Jan 7, 2022

Christ4Me said:
Thank you for sharing, but I still see Jesus referring to Another Person sent by the Father thus separate from the Father, as teaching us, reminding what Jesus has said, and even making silent intercessions for us just as Paul said about the Holy Spirit having a mind.

I do thank you for sharing the nuances of the Hebrew & Greek regarding gender but things can be lost in translation from the Hebrew & Greek, especially when in context of the message given about the Holy Spirit when we resort to what we think is meant back then or even today.

Like say the Greek word, "pnuema" as there are a variety of definitions which means not always referring to the Holy Spirit per Strong's Concordance. So the Greek word is defined by how it is used in context of the message being given.

So it is with assigning the neutral term for the Holy Spirit. In context as being the Spirit of the Father & now the Spirit of Christ, "he" is assigned.

The "he" is assigned by translators not the writers of the Bible who were not writing in Englsih. If the writers were writing in English originally I'm sure they would have dropped the gender indicators. This is hard for people to understand that only speak English.

Look at Proverbs where it says that wisdom is feminine.

Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: (Prov. 1:20)

Was King James the voice of God? Or is a given translation as authoritative as the original language and meaning?

So you believe that translators are inspired by God to make the mistakes in judgment they do? So be it. People are free to believe whatever they want.

Entire doctrines are based on simple ignorance concerning how other languages work. There will always be the unlearned and the ignorant regarding any topic...ESPECIALLY the bible. But the trick is to look deeper and seek God's face for His grace and understanding.

GRACE ambassador · Jan 7, 2022

Episkopos said:
So then really it is hard to study the Bible unless you know the languages it was originally written in.

Precious friend, thanks for your input, but, if we have to be "other language" scholars to study and understand God's Precious Word,
then Many of us are in Big Trouble. Notice:

"And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues The Wonderful
Works Of God." (Acts 2:8-11)

Although I do respect trained theologians who are equipped with
"talent in other tongues," I do not rely on their varying Disagreements on Scripture. I believe God's Way of "study in my own tongue" is to be "With The Indwelling Holy Spirit As my 'Blessed Teacher'
(1 Corinthians 2:13), while following these Bible study Rules!

Precious friend, thanks again for your input.

Ronald David Bruno · Jan 7, 2022

Christ4Me said:
@GRACE ambassador

Another thing about the Nicene Creed of 381 A.D. is this line here:

"Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)"

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

But that scripture reference does not really prove that line in the Nicene creed. It does not teach for the practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son. All that testifies about was that the Holy Spirit added His witness to the Father's witness that Jesus is His Son and thus God.

There are no scripture teaching the practice of worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, but there are scripture testifying to the role of the Holy Spirit as the divine Witness for why He would not lead a believer to testify of Himself in seeking His own glory, but to testify of the Son in seeking His glory.

These are His words for what makes us & the Holy Spirit true witnesses.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Since that is to be true for us as witnesses, so it is with the Holy Spirit. More proof;

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

So the Holy Spirit's job is to testify of the Son to glorify the Son thru us and that has to include worship & not just ministry.

Consider this as a judgment over each believer as forewarned by Christ Jesus as applicable towards worship.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

So the moment any believer stops honoring the Son in worship, they are no longer honoring the Father, even if it is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God of the Triune God, but scripture tells us specifically how the Father wants to be honored and that is by the only way of the Son as the Holy Spirit leads us in worship to do as the Holy Spirit seeks to do thru us. He is a faithful Witness as we should be too.

Believers read this verse many times, applying his to be about Jesus being the only way for salvation, but They need His wisdom to heed His words that He is the only way to come to the Father by in worship, fellowship, & prayer.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me...... 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

So people praying to the Holy Spirit are not honoring the Son as the only Mediator between God and men. People worshipping the Holy Spirit are not led by the Holy Spirit to do that nor are they heeding the Father's will for how He wishes for us to honor Him only by and that is His Son.

They need His help to see the truth in His words for why they need to narrow the way back to the straight gate in coming to God the Father in worship, fellowship, & prayer by the only way of His Son.

God became a man who was filled with the Holy Spirit. Christ lived among men and died for our sins and rose. He is worthy to be worshipped. But I also think that He is also tangible, the perfect illumination and image of God and so by our worship of Christ we also indirectly worship the Father and Holy Spirit, who are not as tangible. They are invisible. So in essence, we worship the Triune God. Actually we commune directly with the Holy Spirit, Who lives in us, guides us, loves us, sanctifies us, justifies us, gives us gifts, teaches us, convicts us of sin, listens to us, etc. It is also interesting and crucial that we do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Sins against the Son may be forgiven but not against the Holy Spirit - always thought that odd.

GRACE ambassador · Jan 7, 2022

Christ4Me said:
I still see Jesus referring to Another Person sent by the Father thus separate from the Father, as teaching us, reminding what Jesus has said, and even making silent intercessions for us just as Paul said about the Holy Spirit having a mind.

Precious friend, in my own "study" of The Triune GodHead, I would
concur that The Holy Spirit Is Indeed "The Third Person." (1 John 5:7),
plus Many More, found here:

"Short" Case FOR The Triune GodHead!
"Complete" Case For JESUS Is Almighty God!!

Also interesting is how The LORD JESUS Humbly Submitted
Himself "To Be Sent To Do His Fathers Will!"
+
The Holy Spirit Was Doubly HUMBLE, As He Submitted To
BOTH The Father AND The SON "To Be Sent!"

(John 14:26) .... (John 16:7)

Something to Seriously Consider in our own walk, Amen?

Precious friend, Christ4me, I am Greatly Encouraged in these discussions:

Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified In HIS Word Of Truth!

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