Homosexuality

FHII said:

I have no doubt that homosexuality is a sin. The Bible is pretty clear about it. However, the Bible is also clear that it is covered by grace. You can be a homosexual and still enter into his grace.

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Rach said:

Aspen, this is really good. And true....isn't it strange how so many Christians fall into the extremes on either side? I have noticed that people on this board do seem to think you approve of homosexuality. It may be because I've talked to you fairly extensively on this point, but I know where you're coming from....you do see it as a sin, you just choose to err on the side of love. I really don't see why that is so wrong...it's not as if you are telling gay people that God loves their sin. I do think that more people will be brought to the Lord through love then through harsh criticism.

I think I understand your point fairly well. My sister got divorced several years ago. Her husband was an emotional abuser of the worst sort. The local church, instead of loving her enough to support her through it and therefore find out the details, they went straight into "divorce is a sin" mode. They didn't care enough to find out that this husband was an unrepentant abuser. He refused to see that he had any part to play, he felt he was a shining example of manhood. The simple fact was that he had betrayed the marriage covenant by refusing to treat my sister as Christ treats the Church. He also had a "hardened heart" against everything...which is actually biblical grounds for divorce. Anyway, the Church couldn't care less, about the details or about my sister, and ended up driving her from God. She had been wronged terribly, and now she was being told God hated her too for what she had done. Hardly a loving response, and hardly the response I think Jesus would have given.
Thankfully my sister has returned to the Lord, but I always felt that if the Church had loved her first, and then worried about the 'rules' once she felt their and God's love and support, then she would not have spent years in darkness. Besides, if they had loved her first they would have seen the truth of the situation and known that she really hadn't broken the 'rules'.

I'm not saying that once we love homosexuals we'll see that they're not breaking the rules, just that showing them love first is the only sensible thing to do. If a gay person walks into a church and gets frowned at and a bible thrown at him (or her), he's just gonna turn around and never come back. It's only through love (not acceptance of the actual sin, but love in the face of it...just as we have from Jesus) that they will be back again and again, which will give the Holy Spirit fertile ground to work in.

We too often push love aside for rules. I'm not saying that the rules aren't important....after all, God did give them to us. But by ignoring the people behind the rule breaking we are in a really big way ignoring what Jesus taught us. I have always thought that love and acceptance without direction can be harmful, but rules and religion without love is just plain mean, and will not bring a single soul to Christ. It's through Jesus we know what is the proper response. He led a sinless life, so we know the we too should aspire to that. But even to the darkest of sinners, murderers and prostitutes, he showed an intense and passionate love to save their souls...and he certainly never let the 'rules' of the Pharisees get in His way to do that. He was amazing....love people first, deal with the sins next. It worked pretty well for Him!

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year2027 said:

Luke 17:[sup]34 [/sup]I tell you, inthat night there will be two men in one bed:the one will be taken and the other will beleft. [sup]35[/sup]Two women will be grinding together:the one will be taken and the other left. [sup][sup]36 [/sup][/sup]Two men will be in the field: the one will betaken and the other left.” [sup]37 [/sup]And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”


what do think the two were doing in the same bed

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belantos said:

Homosexual inclinations are not yet sin. Once these inclinations get out of control, become a motivating force and set people on the path to commit the act, they are already sinful.

Homosexuals, as well as all other people who committed other kinds of sins, can be forgiven as long as they repent from their sins. Noone can "enter into grace" while practising sin, whatever that may be.

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year2027 said:

God first

thanks [font="tahoma][size="4"]th1b.taylor [/size][/font]

Homosexuality I voted no

not because I think it is right answer

Now do you bring up why? whether its right to be gay I person believe its not for to other people sex habits judge

and I am not a homo

Luke 17:[sup]34 [/sup]I tell you, inthat night there will be two men in one bed:the one will be taken and the other will beleft. [sup]35[/sup]Two women will be grinding together:the one will be taken and the other left. [sup][sup]36 [/sup][/sup]Two men will be in the field: the one will betaken and the other left.” [sup]37 [/sup]And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”


what do think the two were doing in the same bed


it a sin like any sin


take me I eat to much that a sin too


a sin is a sin and we all are guilty on something


with love and a holy kiss Roy

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FHII said:

This is problematic then, because everyone is practicing "sin". It doesn't matter if they are big sins, little sins, intentional sins or unintentional sins. If you are guilty of one sin you are guilty of them all (Jas 2:10). Repenting is important, but you must repent of all your sins. The only way to do that is to admit you are a sinner to Jesus Christ; as forgiveness for being a sinner and devote your life to him. However, you are still going to sin after that. The good news of course, is that those sins are covered.

I would like to bring up something interesting that Paul said in Romans 7:19-21:

"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find a law then, when I would do good, evil is present with me."

The point is that even Paul noted he sinned -- even when he knew better and intended not to. This causes a problem for the belief that there is a difference between intentional and unintentional sins.

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belantos said:

Christians who are practising sin did not repent from their old sinful ways and are simply faking salvation. No Christian shall continue in sin, as Paul says, "God forbid!". Jacob is not saying that all sin is equally serious, only that if you break even a small one you already wondered away from the path of righteousness. There are various severity of sins, some of them attracted death penalty, others excommunication, others again required repentance.

You were *always* covered as repentance and prayer was always available. In that respect nothing changed. In Romans 7 Paul personifies the experience of Israel in the giving of the Torah. Check Douglas Moo's commentary on Romans. It is not Paul's idea that the Christian life is full of failure.

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belantos said:

Christians who are practising sin did not repent from their old sinful ways and are simply faking salvation. No Christian shall continue in sin, as Paul says, "God forbid!". Jacob is not saying that all sin is equally serious, only that if you break even a small one you already wondered away from the path of righteousness. There are various severity of sins, some of them attracted death penalty, others excommunication, others again required repentance.

You were *always* covered as repentance and prayer was always available. In that respect nothing changed. In Romans 7 Paul personifies the experience of Israel in the giving of the Torah. Check Douglas Moo's commentary on Romans. It is not Paul's idea that the Christian life is full of failure.

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FHII said:

I trust this was a typo and you were speaking of James? From James chapter 2 he explains that, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, is guilty of all." (That's a direct quote from the KJV). In verse 9 he says that if you have respect of persons, you have transgressed the law. In verse 11 he likens it to what we in the flesh would call more serious sins in that if you don't commit adultery, but you murder you are still guilty. The overall point is that it doesn't matter if you have respect of persons, murder or commit adultry.... You are guilty.

Paul and Jesus said similar things. Paul for example in Gal 3:10 "...Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." Later in chapter 5:3 he notes that if one is circumcised, he in a debtor to do the whole law. Furthermore, I am sure you may have read Matthew 5 where Jesus said amongst other things that if both murder and being mad at your brother without cause carries the punishment of the same judgement; as well as actually committing adultry and thinking about it carry the same guilty punishment.

Yes, the Law of the OT did have different penalties. If you are going to note that adultry and homosexuality are death penalties, that's fine. However I have read verses say that if you gather sticks on the sabbath (by the way, Jesus did something similar when he had his disciples gather food on the Sabbath) and if you ox kills someone, you are subject to the death penalty. There is even a verse in Proverbs 23 that suggests if you are given to appetite you should put a knife to your throat! (I do note that that verse is talking more about being lured by lavisciousness than simply overeating).

I would like to ask people if the sin is still just as severe, is not the the penalty? Should we stone those who commit homosexual acts, adultry or break the Sabbath? What about sacrificing bullocks for forgiveness? If the things that required an animal sacrifice are still sins today, and we still must follow the law, should we not engage in what was required for forgiveness (of course not, because Jesus WAS the sacrifice for the atonement of all sins!).

I have read many passages from Paul on this board which speak about how we shouldn't sin. Yes they are all true and Paul was against sinning in the flesh. However, he talked about them because he was either just talking about or going to talk about grace through faith and how it covers all sins. Furthermore, the many times he said things like "Shall we continue in sin? God forbid!", he later explained that because we were dead in Christ (covered by Grace) we do not sin. Not because we did something or didn't do something but because we are covered by grace because of what Christ did.

I want to bring up one more point for the time being on the writing of Paul before moving on. Paul said twice in 1 Corinthians (6:12 and again in 10:23), "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." (chapter 10 says not all things edify). It is absolutely true that not all things edify or are expedient. However, that does not take away the part that says all things are lawful.

So for now I would like to ask which sins to grace cover? Will sin cover being mad at your brother without a cause, but actually committing murder? Will it cover lusting in your heart but not adultry? There are some things that grace doesn't cover (sins of the spirit), yet my stance is summed up by a verse in Romans 5:20: "Moreover, the law entered that the offense might abound, but where sin abounded, grace did much more abound."

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aspen said:

Are you kidding? All Christians continue in sin they do not recognize. You have to fully understand your personal sin before you can repent of it. I had a personal sin that dogged me for a long time after I became a Christian - I knew in my mind it was a sin, but I really didn't recognize it as a sin on a heart level until the Holy Spirit convicted me of it and showed me a way out. To claim that we are able to fully recognize all personal sin on a mind and heart level and repent on the spot is absurd.

Learning to see yourself as you truly are is a life long process and requires a deep relationship with God.

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belantos said:

We are told by Paul that "by the Torah is the knowledge of sin". Christians, since they have access to the bible, have no excuse not to understand what sin is. Perhaps they don't want to give it up because they enjoy it so much, but then we cannot talk about repentance.

In your personal example you had a mental ascent, but did not repent because you didn't want to repent. The way out of sin is repentance - dying to the old life and walking in the new.

You do not walk with God as long as you refuse to repent.

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belantos said:

His name is "Jacob", not "James". The latter is an English mis-translation.

Ἰάκωβος = "Jacob", NOT "James"
[font="arial][size="3"]
[/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="3"]Jacob 2:[/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="3"]8 You do well if you really fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="3"]9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. [/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="3"]10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. [/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="3"]11 For the one who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery but if you murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. [/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="3"]12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. [/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="3"]13 For judgment will be without mercy to anyone who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.[/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="3"]
[/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="3"]Do you know what "transgression" means? It means the Torah draws a line and you overstep it. No matter how small the commandment is, if you break it, you transgress the Torah. The other illustration is the term "path" or "track" of God. The Hebrews, as nomadic people, followed tracks to get from one place to another. The term "righteousness" in Hebrew means walking on the track of God. If you sidestep, you are off-track and need to return to the track. It doesn't mean if you sidestep a little you are all bad and the wrath of God strikes you down. There is always a return to the track, and you return by repenting and prayer.[/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="3"]
[/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="3"]Proverbs 24:16[/size][/font][font="arial][size="3"]For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of calamity.[/size][/font][font="arial][size="3"]
[/size][/font][font="arial][size="3"]The righteous sidesteps, but always returns to the track. The wicked wonders away. You need to read these passages in context.[/size][/font][font="arial][size="3"]
[/size][/font]
Christians think that if the Torah is too hard to observe, it must be abrogated. Just imagine what would happen to our societies if laws against paedophilia, rape, theft, murder, etc were abrogated because certain people found them hard to keep. The problem is not with the law, the law is designed to regulate, to protect. It only condemns the law-breaker. What one needs is a change of heart so that he doesn't feel like raping, robbing, etc. Then he will not be under the condemnation of the law any more. It doesn't mean the law is abrogated, but that it has nothing to say to those people who do it right. They are no longer under its condemnation. It doesn't mean they can ignore it. But because they love others they will fulfil it.

Circumcision meant you converted to Judaism. You became a Jew, you entered into their covenant relationship with God and thus you were obliged to observe all the commandments that were relevant to you. This was an option you could take, and it was always available to Gentiles. However, Paul contends that for salvation Gentiles didn't need to convert to Judaism. There was a confusion about it in the early days that led to disagreement between Paul and his Judaiser brethren. In the end the Jerusalem council decided that Gentiles did not need to convert to Judaism, and were only required to observe the laws of Noah. The Council did not forbid conversion, their ruling only said,

Acts 15:
19 Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Homosexual sin did not attract death penalty, only excommunication/exile:

Lev 18:29 For whoever does any of these abominations, those persons who do so shall be cut off from among their people.

Various sins attracted various penalties. Only a few were punished by death.

What does "all things are lawful" mean to Paul. He certainly doesn't mean he was free to break the Torah. And what sins are covered by grace? Oh, every sin as long as there is repentance from that sin. Grace doesn't apply to the unrepentant. It is a grave mistake to think that it does.





We are told by Paul that "by the Torah is the knowledge of sin". Christians, since they have access to the bible, have no excuse not to understand what sin is. Perhaps they don't want to give it up because they enjoy it so much, but then we cannot talk about repentance.

In your personal example you had a mental ascent, but did not repent because you didn't want to repent. The way out of sin is repentance - dying to the old life and walking in the new.

You do not walk with God as long as you refuse to repent.

Click to expand...

belantos said:

His name is "Jacob", not "James". The latter is an English mis-translation.

Ἰάκωβος = "Jacob", NOT "James"
[font="arial] [/font][/color][/size][/color][/font]
[font="SBL Greek"][font="arial][size="3"]Jacob 2:[/font]
[font="arial][size="3"]8 You do well if you really fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="3"]9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. [/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="3"]10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. [/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="3"]11 For the one who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery but if you murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. [/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="3"]12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. [/size][/font]
[font="arial][size="3"]13 For judgment will be without mercy to anyone who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.[/size][/font]
[font="arial] [/font][/color][/size][/color][/font]
[font="SBL Greek"][font="arial][size="3"]Do you know what "transgression" means? It means the Torah draws a line and you overstep it. No matter how small the commandment is, if you break it, you transgress the Torah. The other illustration is the term "path" or "track" of God. The Hebrews, as nomadic people, followed tracks to get from one place to another. The term "righteousness" in Hebrew means walking on the track of God. If you sidestep, you are off-track and need to return to the track. It doesn't mean if you sidestep a little you are all bad and the wrath of God strikes you down. There is always a return to the track, and you return by repenting and prayer.[/font]
[font="arial] [/font][/color][/size][/color][/font]
[color="#000000"][font="arial][size="3"]Proverbs 24:16[font="arial][size="3"]For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of calamity.[/size][/font][font="arial] [/font][/color][color="#000000"][font="arial][size="3"]The righteous sidesteps, but always returns to the track. The wicked wonders away. You need to read these passages in context.[/size][/font][font="arial] [/font]
Christians think that if the Torah is too hard to observe, it must be abrogated. Just imagine what would happen to our societies if laws against paedophilia, rape, theft, murder, etc were abrogated because certain people found them hard to keep. The problem is not with the law, the law is designed to regulate, to protect. It only condemns the law-breaker. What one needs is a change of heart so that he doesn't feel like raping, robbing, etc. Then he will not be under the condemnation of the law any more. It doesn't mean the law is abrogated, but that it has nothing to say to those people who do it right. They are no longer under its condemnation. It doesn't mean they can ignore it. But because they love others they will fulfil it.

Circumcision meant you converted to Judaism. You became a Jew, you entered into their covenant relationship with God and thus you were obliged to observe all the commandments that were relevant to you. This was an option you could take, and it was always available to Gentiles. However, Paul contends that for salvation Gentiles didn't need to convert to Judaism. There was a confusion about it in the early days that led to disagreement between Paul and his Judaiser brethren. In the end the Jerusalem council decided that Gentiles did not need to convert to Judaism, and were only required to observe the laws of Noah. The Council did not forbid conversion, their ruling only said,

Acts 15:
19 Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Homosexual sin did not attract death penalty, only excommunication/exile:

Lev 18:29 For whoever does any of these abominations, those persons who do so shall be cut off from among their people.

Various sins attracted various penalties. Only a few were punished by death.

What does "all things are lawful" mean to Paul. He certainly doesn't mean he was free to break the Torah. And what sins are covered by grace? Oh, every sin as long as there is repentance from that sin. Grace doesn't apply to the unrepentant. It is a grave mistake to think that it does.





We are told by Paul that "by the Torah is the knowledge of sin". Christians, since they have access to the bible, have no excuse not to understand what sin is. Perhaps they don't want to give it up because they enjoy it so much, but then we cannot talk about repentance.

In your personal example you had a mental ascent, but did not repent because you didn't want to repent. The way out of sin is repentance - dying to the old life and walking in the new.

You do not walk with God as long as you refuse to repent.

Click to expand...

Duckybill said:

Are you saying that we can live any way we like and still be saved, no matter what?

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Duckybill said:

So we can live in sin and still be Christians?

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