It depends on what you mean by "get better". Genuine conversion should lead to total transformation and a totally new direction, e.g. Saul the persecuting Pharisee transformed into Paul, the outstanding apostle and missionary.
Church Bashing
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McFearless
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When Marry and Joseph was worried about where Jesus was, he replied the he was in his father’s. He didn’t say house, temple or church.
Luke 2;41-52
Jesus was in the temple at this point.
If one looks at the original text, Jesus doesn’t actually use the word house.
“Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”
In Luke that place (where Jesus was) was the temple, translated to house.
“didn’t you know I had to be in my fathers’ “ leaving out the word house.
It’s right that Jesus said that he would rebuild the temple in three days. When we use the word church, we are either talking about the members as limbs of a large body an institution or a building.
In today’s meaning.
Trying to mirror your love..
The idea of "church bashing" as an accusation is not from God but from below...protecting the fallen state of most of the church. If you want to revile a supreme church basher who is the Lord...as does the prince of this world...not realizing that a wake up call is far better than being cast into outer darkness. Here is a good example of church bashing
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
You may have the wrong idea here, I'm talking about the ignorant overgeneralizations given by men, generally of weak character, who would try to build themselves up in their own minds by putting down others. In this case, by speaking of large numbers of people of whom they have no idea.
When Jesus says these things, He knows the ones He addresses, He addresses them accurately, individually. Some people, even on this forum, have given themselves permission to act the same way, but without the knowledge or wisdom of Christ, and without the accuracy. And that is what I was pointing to.
It's vanity.
The Pharisees thought to "bash" the disciples one day,
Matthew 12:1-8 KJV
1) At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
2) But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3) But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4) How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5) Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
6) But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
7) But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
8) For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
He chided them for "condemning the guiltless". Condemning the guiltless -- that is what is not from above.
Much love!
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To be clear to answer your invitation here, No, I'm not wanting to revile the Lord.
As if I were in alignment with the prince of this world.
The things people say!
Much love!
You should consider that the term "church bashing" is itself an overgeneralization that may include impugning the prophets of God and the Lord Himself as perpetrators. Whether knowingly or unknowingly, going too far one way or the other leaves room for the devil to do his thing. It is too easy to see all criticisms as being negative. God's love is not as squishy as you make it out to be. Mark, you do have a snowflake mentality where it comes to a proper correction...one that involves life and death issues. When the issue is put aside so that the person is coddled and encouraged in their current stance...death is given a wig and make-up to look like it is something other than it really is. I see a lot of that kind of posturing on the forum and in church circles. Men today cannot endure sound doctrine...but it seems that can endure an awful lot of affirmation and molly-coddling.
Do we want to encourage the outer man or help people to decide that their carnal selves need to go to the cross?
After that, we can encourage away!!
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Again . . . I'm not speaking of all criticisms, and I've clarified for you a couple of times now what I'm saying. So that makes me wonder why you say what you say, but then our words will always reveal our hearts, will they not? This is what Jesus said, that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
Is that how you see me? Is that how you would like others to see me?
Is this simply your own negative opinion of me, being broadcast without concern? Something else? You idea of correction seems more like disparagement. We've never met, we've never spoken in person, but you've judged me a snowflake mentality. OK. What have you accomplished?
And many men lacking sound doctrine seem to require molly-coddling and much affirmation, and many self-affirmations at the expense of others, or so it seems to them.
Let's leave the personal opinions aside, if you would like to discuss the content, the topic, great! If you are only interested in sharing your negative opinions of me, particularly lacking any REAL knowledge of me, frankly, that's something else I've had my fill of.
The issue gets put aside when you begin to speak to the person, the ad hominem argument. It's a vanity as it does nothing towards the discussion. I'm here to promote Scriptural doctrine. You appear to be attempting to prove your point by making out I'm not up to par, or whatever. Let's stay on point.
Much love!
We want to build people up in sound doctrine, and a pure faith, and in love in the Lord.
Much love!
Romans 6:3-9 LITV
3) Or are you ignorant that all who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4) Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, so also shall we be in the resurrection,
6) knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin.
7) For the one that died has been justified from sin.
8) But if we died with Christ, we believe that also we shall live with Him,
9) knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death no longer lords it over Him.
We so need a proper understanding of life and death, and the real freedom Jesus purchased for us, provided for us through His death and resurrection. All must be born again.
Much love!
Which part of people...that is the issue that you are avoiding...again! Do you believe that Jesus died to save the WHOLE man? Do you believe that it is only when we wish to save our lives that we are saved...OR...when we lose our lives that we are saved?
So which part do we give up (if any)? It is humanist to try to save the whole person. Feelings WILL get hurt as they are taken to the cross.
Do you believe in the cross of Christ for believers? Or only the free gifts given to people because of what Jesus did?
These are the points (issues) that lead to life and death...which you are NOT addressing.
The church of God is strictly based on the INNER MAN. The outer man with all the feelings and opinions must go to the cross for the sake of saving that inner man. Without going to the cross the inner man remains in bondage to the "protection" of the flesh. (Actually the bondage of the flesh masquerading as protection)
being defensive about the person is ALWAYS from the outer man. Do you see?
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Let's not get dramatic here . . . I'm not avoiding anything. But again you make me the topic.
Yes.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 LITV
23) And may the God of peace Himself fully sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
However the body of humiliation is not transformed until Jesus transforms it to be like His body of glory.
Philippians 3:20-21 LITV
20) For our citizenship is in Heaven, from where we also wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21) who will transform our body of humiliation, for it to be conformed to His body of glory, according to the working of Him to be able even to subject all things under Himself.
Considering that Jesus said that we lose our life to save it, I'd go with that.
I suggest giving up all the fleshy ways of man, all of it!
We need to understand the vast difference in the internal mental/emotional landscape of the flesh and of the spirit. All these fleshy ways we so much of, that still feel so normal to so many. How many little jabs meant to tear down and not build up? Quick fleshy angers and resentments, and little lashings out.
Or patience and gentleness and truth.
Romans 6:3-13 LITV
3) Or are you ignorant that all who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4) Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, so also shall we be in the resurrection,
6) knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin.
7) For the one that died has been justified from sin.
8) But if we died with Christ, we believe that also we shall live with Him,
9) knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death no longer lords it over Him.
10) For in that He died, He died to sin once for all; but in that He lives, He lives to God.
11) So also you count yourselves to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12) Then do not let sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its lusts.
13) Neither present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as one living from the dead, and your members instruments of righteousness to God.
These questions are easily answered in the straightforward readings of the Bible, and only come into question if you question the straightforward reading.
Only? no.
Are you reading my posts?
The Bible speaks in terms that we have been crucified with Christ, and now we are to be transformed by the renewing of the mind, in coming to know God better. There is of course a lot more that can be said.
I find staying with the Biblical terminology guards against error as I'm speaking with the words God chose.
To answer your question, if I see that being defensive about "the person" is ALWAYS from the outer man, on the one hand, there is the fleshy lust to vindicate one's self, to not be looked down on, like that. There is also correction that is not a defence, such as Jesus correcting the Pharisees over Who is His Father, and things like that.
Romans 5:1-6 LITV
1) Then being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2) through whom also we have had access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we glory on the hope of the glory of God.
3) And not only so, but we glory also in afflictions, knowing that affliction works out patience,
4) and patience works out proven character; and proven character, hope.
5) And the hope does not put us to shame, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit given to us;
6) for we yet being without strength, in due time Christ died for ungodly ones.
Much love!
Romans 6:6 LITV
6) knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin.
Galatians 2:20 LITV
20) I have been crucified with Christ, and I live; yet no longer I, but Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith toward the Son of God, the One loving me and giving Himself over on my behalf.
Galatians 5:24 LITV
24) But the ones belonging to Christ crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
Do you reckon yourself to be dead indeed to sin, and alive to God in Jesus Christ our Lord?
Romans 6:7 KJV
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Much love!
Being freed from sin is the result of the outer man being crucified. If you wish to ride on the testimony of Paul as if it was transferable to you by wishful thinking and adopted belief...you have the free will to do so.
Agreed.
Romans 6:6-7 KJV
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Do you reckon yourself dead indeed to sin, and alive unto God in Jesus Christ our Lord?
Wishful thinking or 'adopted' belief (whatever you may mean by that I'm not sure),
2 Corinthians 5:7 KJV
7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
Romans 6:3-7 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Romans 8:9-14 KJV
9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
So then this remains the question . . . do you reckon yourself dead indeed to sin, and alive to God in Jesus Christ our Lord, and if you do, is it pretend, or is it real?
And if not, why not, considering what is written here?
Much love!
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You cannot read the New Testament and say about everything that seems good to you, oh, that’s me! And say about everything that seems hard or unpleasant to you, oh, that’s not me!
That is reading it to prop up the flesh that needs to die.
That is reading it to prop up the flesh that needs to die.
Teaching, Or Testimony?
This seems to be @Episkopos question. Is this something that was only speaking of Paul? His testimony? I believe this was in fact Paul's testimony, as he wrote for us the doctrines of salvation and sanctification.
Galatians 2:19-21 KJV
19) For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Romans 6:3-10 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Colossians 2:10-15 KJV
10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11) In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Romans 8:9-11 KJV
9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
What Paul teaches generally, he also applies to himself. So this is then both teaching and testimony. This is the testimony of the children of God.
Much love!
OK, yeah, we don't just interpret according to our own whimsy, I think everyone would agree with that.
If you say so. I just say, that unless we are willing to believe what we read, submitting ourselves to it as the Word of God, we will suffer loss.
Much love!
What it really sounds like you are saying here is that is what I do, is that what you mean? Just looking for clarity.
Much love!
This is a question for you also. Do you reckon yourself dead indeed unto sin, and alive unto God in Jesus Christ our Lord? If yes, is this a real or pretend dead to sin? If no, why not, consider what is written?
Romans 6:11 KJV
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
By this trust in Jesus that this is what He has done for us we can stand in this grace.
Much love!
Yes, it is real. After I found my passions suddenly gone, yes, I then did say, well…I guess (reckon) I must have died…?
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