Jerusalem: A Fig Tree That Will Bud Again

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Oseas

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I don't know where you get this? A tree is established in a plot of ground. That's likely Israel after she was established as a nation in the land of Israel. The "roots," then, would be Abrahamic faith, or the faith of the Patriarchs.

Gentile converts to Christianity were branches added to the tree as long as Israel continued as a nation, because there was no other tree. But later, Gentile Christianity developed their own "trees," when entire nations converted to the faith.

The "roots" still belonged, perhaps to Abraham, but the Christian nations have appropriated Abraham's roots for their own "trees."

Dialogue between Jews and JESUS: John 8KJV

Jews said:
- We be Abraham's seed,...John 8:v.33KJV
- JESUS said: - I know that ye are Abraham's seed...John 8:v.37KJV (Positive)

Jews said: - Abraham is our father.... John 8:v.39KJV
- JESUS said:- If ye were Abraham's children...John 8:v.39KJV (If???? hum!!!)

Jews said: - We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. John 8:v.41KJV
- JESUS said: - If GOD were your Father...John 8:v.42KJV (If???? hum!!!)
- JESUS said to the Jews: Why do ye not understand my speech? John 8:v.43
- JESUS openly and emphaticaly said to the Jews: Ye are of your father the Devil..., John 8:v.44 - (Should we believe in JESUS here?)

In Revelation 12:v. 9KJV, JESUS said: And the great Dragon (the red Dragon) was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his messengers were cast out with him. By the way, "red Dragon" is the new name of the Devil in this time of Apocalypse)

Genesis 3:v.4-7KJV

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked;
And they sewed fig leaves together,
and made themselves aprons. (Fig leaves? Yeah, fig leaves, course, even in the Garden of GOD, in Eden)

Even JESUS said to the Jews: Ye are of your father the Devil...,
Why did JESUS call the Jews of serpents?
It is because they are sons of the old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, now red Dragon.
Matt.23:v.33-35: 33 -Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

What is the MYSTERY of JESUS had linked the Jews to the murder of Abel? Who killed Abel? That upon the Jews may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth beginning by te blood of Abel? GOD caused the NATION of Israel, the clay, the dry land, to spring up out of the earth in the middle of the third Day. The NATION of Israel was created around 2.500 years after Adam or 1.500 years B.C., so Israel appeared in the half of the third Day of GODs' works.

For we must all appear before the Judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:v.10
 

Ronald D Milam

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Will the city of Jerusalem bear spiritual fruit, and many Jews come to Christ in the end-times? Many say no, and that God is done with the nation of Isreal; that the church is now spiritual "Isreal" and all Bible prophecy relates to Christians alone. They even teach that the above parable proves God was finished with Israel after A.D. 70.
I don't need to be persuaded brother, the bible tells us in Zechariah 13:8-9 that 1/3 of the Jews repent but 2/3 will refuse to repent and will thus perish, the very next verse which is Zechariah 14:1 starts out "The Day of the Lord cometh" or has arrived, then we see Jerusalem sacked in verses 1 and 2, and then Jesus returns in verses 3 and 4 which is the Armageddon victory. So, we know 100 percent that the Jews repent just before the Day of the Lord (middle of the 70th week) thus they can flee Judea when they see the AoD which happens at the 1290, not the 1260 where the Anti-Christ conquers them, in other words, they have 30 days to flee unto the mountains. The AoD is the False Prophet not the Anti-Christ. { see Rev. 13, who places the Image? }

Now as per the parable if the Fig Tree, I think that most everyone followed the Hal Lindsey line for years of the fig tree being Israel, but in this instance a proper reread shows in Matt. 24:32-35 that Jesus is not talking about Israel per se, but about ALL THE SIGNS he just spoke of from Matt. 24:4-31, he even says this in the parable, when you see ALL THESE SIGNS, know that summer is nigh. So, Jesus is talking unto the end time Jews who see all of these signs. Well we know the 70 AD temple is destroyed, thus Matt. 24:4-6 is about the 70 A.D. events, Matt. 24:7-14 is about the church age events, thus when the Gospel reaches all the world we (Church) will be raptured and now the last signs for these 70th week Jews are evident.

Matthew 24:15-31
  1. The AoD (vs 15)
  2. Much Tribulation (vs 21)
  3. False Prophet and Anti-Christ performing miracles (vs 24)
  4. Then the Last Sign, the Sun and Moon shall be darkened (the Wrath of God Falls) and Jesus will then appear 1260 days later.
So, the LAST SIGN which that generation (Jews living in the 70th week) will see will be the Joel 2:31 sign, then those Jews will understand that the Summer (Jesus' Return to save them) is near. When he shows up they will say Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord

Overall we agree, very good summation. Nice job. And like I said, even though I think people misunderstand the parable of the fig tree in Matt. 24, in essence, we know Israel is in the land at that time and Jesus will save them, but they must repent first, all men must come unto Christ by faith alone, else the 2/3 who do not repent should get saved also. When Paul says all Israel will be saved, he is speaking of the nation, not individual Jews. God promised Abraham an eternal seed, so Israel, as a nation, will be saved. Amen, come Lord Come !!
 
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Randy Kluth

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Dialogue between Jews and JESUS: John 8KJV

What's your point? I can't read your mind, or don't wish to try. Just spell out your point, and Ill try to respond. We both believe all the Scriptures.
 

Hidden In Him

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fall on us and hide us’, This is paralleled by Revelation 6:15-17 and Isaiah 2:21, both in passages that vividly describe the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath.

Yes, Keraz. Only the interesting thing is that absent from Jesus' statements in Luke 23:31 is any reference to fleeing specifically from the wrath of God. This was another classic case of Him making them think the end was coming in their time, so they would go and preach the gospel to the ends of the earth, though it actually wasn't. If He had told them His return would not be until 2,000 years later, how motivated would they have been? (Matthew 24:49-51).
 

Hidden In Him

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I don't need to be persuaded brother, the bible tells us in Zechariah 13:8-9 that 1/3 of the Jews repent but 2/3 will refuse to repent and will thus perish, the very next verse which is Zechariah 14:1 starts out "The Day of the Lord cometh" or has arrived, then we see Jerusalem sacked in verses 1 and 2, and then Jesus returns in verses 3 and 4 which is the Armageddon victory. So, we know 100 percent that the Jews repent just before the Day of the Lord (middle of the 70th week) thus they can flee Judea when they see the AoD which happens at the 1290, not the 1260 where the Anti-Christ conquers them, in other words, they have 30 days to flee unto the mountains. The AoD is the False Prophet not the Anti-Christ. { see Rev. 13, who places the Image? }

Now as per the parable if the Fig Tree, I think that most everyone followed the Hal Lindsey line for years of the fig tree being Israel, but in this instance a proper reread shows in Matt. 24:32-35 that Jesus is not talking about Israel per se, but about ALL THE SIGNS he just spoke of from Matt. 24:4-31, he even says this in the parable, when you see ALL THESE SIGNS, know that summer is nigh. So, Jesus is talking unto the end time Jews who see all of these signs. Well we know the 70 AD temple is destroyed, thus Matt. 24:4-6 is about the 70 A.D. events, Matt. 24:7-14 is about the church age events, thus when the Gospel reaches all the world we (Church) will be raptured and now the last signs for these 70th week Jews are evident.

Matthew 24:15-31
  1. The AoD (vs 15)
  2. Much Tribulation (vs 21)
  3. False Prophet and Anti-Christ performing miracles (vs 24)
  4. Then the Last Sign, the Sun and Moon shall be darkened (the Wrath of God Falls) and Jesus will then appear 1260 days later.
So, the LAST SIGN which that generation (Jews living in the 70th week) will see will be the Joel 2:31 sign, then those Jews will understand that the Summer (Jesus' Return to save them) is near. When he shows up they will say Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord

Overall we agree, very good summation. Nice job. And like I said, even though I think people misunderstand the parable of the fig tree in Matt. 24, in essence, we know Israel is in the land at that time and Jesus will save them, but they must repent first, all men must come unto Christ by faith alone, else the 2/3 who do not repent should get saved also. When Paul says all Israel will be saved, he is speaking of the nation, not individual Jews. God promised Abraham an eternal seed, so Israel, as a nation, will be saved. Amen, come Lord Come !!


Excellent, and thank you for the post. I'm off to work, but let me ask you something I occasionally ask others on this subject: Have you ever heard of the partial fulfillment of Biblical prophecy, with the entire or (true) fulfillment coming much later? It can be seen in scripture where God used this principle to make people believe in and preserve the prophecies in their own times, because it appeared as if they were fully on their way to fulfillment, while the ultimate fulfillment would come much later, sometimes thousands of years later. This is especially the case with prophecies about the coming Day of the Lord.

I'll wait for your reply, but it's something that not everyone sees.

Thank you again for this post, and I agree with you.

God bless,
- H
 
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DuckieLady

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Now as per the parable if the Fig Tree, I think that most everyone followed the Hal Lindsey line for years of the fig tree being Israel, but in this instance a proper reread shows in Matt. 24:32-35 that Jesus is not talking about Israel per se, but about ALL THE SIGNS he just spoke of from Matt. 24:4-31, he even says this in the parable, when you see ALL THESE SIGNS, know that summer is nigh.
Yes!!!!!!
 
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Ronald D Milam

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Excellent, and thank you for the post. I'm off to work, but let me ask you something I occasionally ask others on this subject: Have you ever heard of the partial fulfillment of Biblical prophecy, with the entire or (true) fulfillment coming much later? It can be seen in scripture where God used this principle to make people believe in and preserve the prophecies in their own times, because it appeared as if they were fully on their way to fulfillment, while the ultimate fulfillment would come much later, sometimes thousands of years later. This is especially the case with prophecies about the coming Day of the Lord.

I'll wait for your reply, but it's something that not everyone sees.

Thank you again for this post, and I agree with you.

God bless,

Yes indeed, as a matter of fact Daniel 11:21-33 maybe 34 is about Antiochus the type Anti-Christ and Daniel 11:36-45 is about the actual end time Anti-Christ. I did an Exegesis of Daniel 11 & 12 where I pinpointed every king and all the players in each verse and spelled out in detail what the verse meant and all the players, and I came across a key figure no one really talks about, tbh, I wrote the Exegesis and vaguely mentioned him and his brother, who were both High Priests. I will give the first two verses and how I interpreted Jason in a limited manner, which I later understood was a grave error.

21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Antiochus IV then became king, he is called a vile person. He became king via a series of maneuvers which included flattering the king of Pergamum to gain his allegiance and by the death of the heir to the throne.

22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

The High Priest (prince of the covenant) was replaced via a conspiracy involving the high priests brother and Antiochus Epiphanes but his brother was also double crossed when another priest bribed Antiochus Epiphanes with even more money, it seems he was for sale at all times for a price. Jason (real name Yeshua) bribed Antiochus

So, this above was the extent of my thoughts at the time on Jason, but I realized later on, that I had missed the other type, we have Antiochus the type Anti-Christ and we also have the type False Prophet in Jason. He bribed Antiochus who then killed Onias III who was Jason's real life brother and a pious High Priest, Jason then welcomed Antiochus into the temple and allowed him to sacrifice a pig unto Zeus, he then tried to Hellenize the Jews leading to the infamous Maccabean Revolt.

So, one day it suddenly hit me as I was looking at all my notes, hold up I thought, by being diligent in my studies, God had given me not only that which is a known entity in the bible, the Anti-Christ's type in Antiochus, (which was well known anyway) but I had also learned he had a Jewish High Priest running mate, who tried to get the Jews to change their culture from Jewish unto the Greek culture (he seeks to change times and laws can mean traditions and culture, I think that's what it actually means, we are seeing it again now throughout the world, homosexual marriage acceptance, transsexual acceptance etc.).

So, this rouge High Priest, does everything the end time False Prophet will do. It suddenly hit me, of course if Antiochus was the type he would have a type false prophet by his side. So, yes I believe in "shadows to come", they are seen throughout the bible.

By the way, there is a reason Jason is not mentioned in the bible and a reason why we are not told that the 1290 is the coming False Prophet in Daniel, but are then told by John about the coming False Prophet. If instead of the 1290 numbered AoD Gabriel or Jesus (Man in Linen) had told Daniel about a soon to come false prophet, then the Jewish leaders over the next 500 or so years would have killed every other High Priest thinking he was "the evil one to come" so to speak, just like king Herod tried to kill baby Jesus. But John was indeed told about this in 90ish AD because Jerusalem had already been sacked, thus the threats to the high priest meant nothing, Israel would not be a nation again for near 2000 years. Jason is in the book of Maccabeans, and in Wikipedia, and in the history books.

I do think 70 AD was the original point where God/Jesus would have saved Israel if they had repented, but they have yet to repent. Thus God put off the 70th week and gave us the 2000 some odd year church age.


God Bless.
 
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Oseas

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What's your point? I can't read your mind, or don't wish to try. Just spell out your point, and Ill try to respond. We both believe all the Scriptures.

My point? My point is what JESUS preached I also preach LITERALLY, without add or take away from the words He preached.
Can't you read my mind? Now, now, what matters in the message I posted is not my mind, but the MIND of Christ, no? Can't you, we, read the MIND of Christ by His words? Of course we can, but if any Christian/believer read not the mind of Christ by the words He received from the Father and preached, it is because he has not the mind of Christ, and if any has not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His as is written in the Word of GOD-the Word is GOD. What we see NOT ONLY in this Christian site, but in all, is that each one tries to read the mind of other, but by his HUMAN spirit, NOT BY Spirit of GOD, reason by which what is seen are confusions, false testimony, blasphemy, evil discussions, apostasies, among many other devilish thoughts, AS WE CAN SEE IT HAPPENED WITH PETER Apostle when HE DID NOT READ THE MIND OF CHRIST.

HERE GOES WHAT HAPENNED WHEN PETER DID NOT READ THE MIND OF CHRIST - Matthew 16:v.21-23.

21 From that time forth began JESUS to shew unto His disciples, how that He must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be KILLED, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But JESUS turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence (stumbling block) unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. - in other words, your thinking is from a human perspective, not from God’s perspective!

It's it.
 

michaelvpardo

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Hi Randy.

There are a couple of problems with your hypothesis. For starters, He told them that "when you see all these things [coming to pass], know that it is near," and the previous verses suggest He was talking about His return (see v.27-31). And "all these things" that needed to happen first obviously included the tribulation and the sun being darkened, the moon not giving its light, the stars falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens being shaken, because the mention of those things preceded His statement about "seeing all these things" as well.

The confusion with this passage often comes from how it is translated, however. "This generation" is misleading. The Greek word γενεά was just as readily defined as "age," and that was the meaning here. The reference is not merely to the passing of a generation, but to an age finally "passing away."

32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this age will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
I struggled with those verses early on after receiving the gospel, but I started treating the language as consistent through scripture and realized that the Bible also uses the word generation to refer to 2 classes of people, the generation of the righteous and a generation of wickedness, the generation of His wrath. I've never examined the words in the original language, because the verses cross languages, but as Jesus told these things to His disciples and wasn't addressing the crowds or His enemies, He could've been referring to the body of Christ. In this sense every born again believer is of the same generation as those disciples. There are no 2nd generation born again Christians as the new birth isn't passed on to children. We all must be born again in order to enter into His kingdom.
This actually works as well with the concept of "age" in that Christ's return completes His Church and begins the Millenial reign.
 

michaelvpardo

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Right, Jesus did say that. We are to watch expectantly that the Kingdom will come, and all of mankind will be judged. Things will be put right. But he did not say we were to watch expectantly that he could return *at any minute.* That's the distinction I wished to make!

The misconception that was present at that time was not, of course, our version of Imminency Doctrine, the idea that Jesus can come back "at any second." Rather, it was something akin to that which said, The Kingdom is about to come and deliver Israel from the Romans at about any time now. The triumphant return of the Messiah can be expected presently," even though the Jews were hardly ready for their Kingdom to come!

So Jesus was correcting this notion by declaring, explicitly, that the temple was about to be trounced in that very generation, which would lead to an age-long Jewish Punishment. It would only end with his Return. This absolutely contradicted the then-belief that the Kingdom was about to come to bring instant deliverance.

Luke 19.11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once.



Yes, I understand. But in reality, discourses are not neatly divided up into timed segments--"this segment refers to Jesus' time, and this segment refers to the 2nd Coming," etc. You just have to read something sensibly in context.

I read it the way you are reading it, and was confused for many years. Somewhere along the way I listened to tidbits from others and gradually came to a more coherent understanding. Maybe it helps to read it in another language--I don't know.

Certainly it's a matter for prayer, because the enemy would love to confuse us all, and even worse, divide us. This issue doesn't determine our spiritual unity. But coming to a genuine understanding of the passage should, in theory, help us. Unfortunately, when some of us disagree too strongly, it does divide us spiritually. I don't think that's true in your case.

So "all these things" refer to the Main Event, the Fall of Jerusalem. I say this for several reasons.

1) Jesus began the Discourse by introducing the idea that Jerusalem is soon to fall. This was his main objective, to predict this major event in the history of Israel. Just as the prophets before him predicted the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians, Jesus was here predicting the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans.

It would be illogical for Jesus to ask his Disciples or his Generation to look for "all these things" if the things included things that clearly could not happen in their generation, such as the regathering of Israel. A long Diaspora was to precede that event.

2) Jesus identified "all these things" as a group by referring to them as "birth pains." They consisted of events that were directly linked, thematically and historically, to the fall of Jerusalem.

Predicting wars and rumors of wars are the things that anticipate further warfare. Hearing and seeing Roman activities in the region were to be viewed as a sign from God that imminent judgment was coming. And historically, earthquakes and wars did happen at that time, just before the 70 AD event.

3) Jesus intended to distinguish between the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and his Return after a long dispersion of the Jewish People. "All these things" that Jesus said his own generation was to expect would therefore be focused on the nearer event, namely the event of 70 AD.

So why, you ask, would Jesus mention "all these things" right after referring to his 2nd Coming? It was, I think, because Jesus was contrasting the things his generation was to look for with the things that they would not expect to be imminent, namely his coming as lightning shining throughout the earth, following a long Jewish Dispersion.



Of course. I've heard of partial fulfillment, double fulfillment, etc. I'm a literalist. I think there are foreshadowings, but I interpret what Jesus said quite literally. Poetic license is allowed. ;)



That's okay, brother. We're just sharing views. You've always had a good spirit. That's way too rare on the forums. I just got kicked off another forum today for presenting the idea that baptismal regeneration didn't always intend to mean justification by works in the traditional churches. I was accused of misrepresenting traditional church positions. ;)

Thanks for your good spirit. I genuinely appreciate it! :)



Luke 21 defines the Great Tribulation as a Tribulation of the *Jewish People,* and one that lasts *throughout the NT age,* ending only at the Return of Christ. I've argued this until I'm out of breath, but find relatively few to agree with me.

So the idea is that Punishment came upon the generation that Jesus condemned as worse than Sodom, which is the generation that crucified him. And the Jews were targeted because they should've known better. The Gospel of Theocracy would then be taken to the Romans due to their relative innocence.

So the guilt belonged to this generation, and not to all future generations of Jews who had yet to be born. Yes, the Jews continued to be controlled by bad leaders, who defined Judaism as "not Christianity," and who blamed Christianity as perhaps their "worst enemy." There could be some truth in that if we include in "Christianity" corrupt forms of Christianity.

In sum, the Punishment of the Jewish People would continue through all NT generations, but the Guilt belonged solely on the generation that crucified Christ. Each succeeding generation would bear its own individual guilt, rather than bearing some kind of "racial guilt" for the murder of Christ.

The "Punishment" is merely exile from the land of Israel. It is not punishment in the sense that all generations of Jews are guilty of rejecting Jesus. Many of them don't know anything about it, or have false caricatures of him.

The "punishment," therefore, is just where the nation has to sit, quarantined away from their land until the time set by the Lord to bring them back and remove the wicked. The "Punishment" and the "Guilt," therefore, must be clearly distinguished, lest we fall into a form of anti-Semitism.

“For the Lord will judge His people
And have compassion on His servants,
When He sees that their power is gone,
And there is no one remaining, bond or free.
Deuteronomy 32:36
This verse is from the song of Moses, a prophetic glimpse of all redemptive history with respect to Israel. The men were meant to teach this to their children throughout all their generations so that they could look at this "bird's eye " view of history and recognize God's hand in their blessings and cursing.

There are multiple passages describing their sufferings in their dispersion which began with the captivity of the northern tribes of Israel and wasn't completed until the dispersion under persecution in the 1st century AD and the Jewish rebellion that culminated in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem. God's judgments against national Israel took place over a period of about 800 years, not just in the events of 70 AD, and the Jews have been harassed and persecuted around the world since that time.

Historical pressures created groups of secular Jews who've blended into society for self preservation. The "conversos" of Spain recanted of their faith to profess Christ in order to save their skin during the Spanish Inquisition. That persecution is well known, but by no means the only persecution of Jews in history. The book of Esther describes one such persecution and the Jews celebrate their deliverance to this day. The holocaust is the most infamous persecution in modern times, but centuries of Civil War in Ethiopia were conflicts between Ethiopian Christians and Falasha jews.

All the prophecies regarding Israel’s punishments in its apostasy, include the promise of a national restoration to their inheritance in the latter days, a huge chunk of real estate with boundaries set by God in the old testament that they have never received at any time in history.
Are God's promises to the nation void?

In the book of Romans, when Paul writes about Israel's need to accept the gospel, he writes:

But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says: “I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation, I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.” Romans 10:19

In context, the foolish nation (which is not a nation) is a reference to the church (in contrast to the nation of Israel.)
That verse is a direct quote from the song of Moses in chapter 32 of Deuteronomy and a proof that "replacement theology " is erroneous.
 

Hidden In Him

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21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Antiochus IV then became king, he is called a vile person. He became king via a series of maneuvers which included flattering the king of Pergamum to gain his allegiance and by the death of the heir to the throne.

22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

The High Priest (prince of the covenant) was replaced via a conspiracy involving the high priests brother and Antiochus Epiphanes but his brother was also double crossed when another priest bribed Antiochus Epiphanes with even more money, it seems he was for sale at all times for a price. Jason (real name Yeshua) bribed Antiochus

So, this above was the extent of my thoughts at the time on Jason, but I realized later on, that I had missed the other type, we have Antiochus the type Anti-Christ and we also have the type False Prophet in Jason. He bribed Antiochus who then killed Onias III who was Jason's real life brother and a pious High Priest, Jason then welcomed Antiochus into the temple and allowed him to sacrifice a pig unto Zeus, he then tried to Hellenize the Jews leading to the infamous Maccabean Revolt.

So, one day it suddenly hit me as I was looking at all my notes, hold up I thought, by being diligent in my studies, God had given me not only that which is a known entity in the bible, the Anti-Christ's type in Antiochus, (which was well known anyway) but I had also learned he had a Jewish High Priest running mate, who tried to get the Jews to change their culture from Jewish unto the Greek culture (he seeks to change times and laws can mean traditions and culture, I think that's what it actually means, we are seeing it again now throughout the world, homosexual marriage acceptance, transsexual acceptance etc.).

So, this rouge High Priest, does everything the end time False Prophet will do. It suddenly hit me, of course if Antiochus was the type he would have a type false prophet by his side. So, yes I believe in "shadows to come", they are seen throughout the bible.

Well it's certainly an interesting observation on potential parallels. So are you of the belief that the Antichrist and False Prophet will be Jewish or Pagan?
 

Hidden In Him

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I struggled with those verses early on after receiving the gospel, but I started treating the language as consistent through scripture and realized that the Bible also uses the word generation to refer to 2 classes of people, the generation of the righteous and a generation of wickedness, the generation of His wrath. I've never examined the words in the original language, because the verses cross languages, but as Jesus told these things to His disciples and wasn't addressing the crowds or His enemies, He could've been referring to the body of Christ. In this sense every born again believer is of the same generation as those disciples. There are no 2nd generation born again Christians as the new birth isn't passed on to children. We all must be born again in order to enter into His kingdom.
This actually works as well with the concept of "age" in that Christ's return completes His Church and begins the Millenial reign.


It is plausible, yes, though I think how the differences in how the word can be translated is the simpler answer. And I believe there was indeed a deliberate intention on His part to lead others to think the end was imminent, for their own good, as per Post #85. I think the Lord was likely leading the kingdom of darkness on as well. He's tricky like that, LoL.
 

Randy Kluth

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My point? My point is what JESUS preached I also preach LITERALLY, without add or take away from the words He preached.
Can't you read my mind? Now, now, what matters in the message I posted is not my mind, but the MIND of Christ, no? Can't you, we, read the MIND of Christ by His words? Of course we can, but if any Christian/believer read not the mind of Christ by the words He received from the Father and preached, it is because he has not the mind of Christ, and if any has not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His as is written in the Word of GOD-the Word is GOD.

That is so much bunk! I hear this regularly, and although I don't doubt your sincerity in reality it is an effort to avoid getting pinned down on what you *mean*--not on the Scriptures you quote. If you can't explain how you are interpreting something you might as well not be here, because we all have Bibles!

We are exhorted to handle the word of truth *properly.* The implication is that you can quote a Scripture and apply it improperly. The Christian cults do this all the time. But they apply the Scriptures with a wrong and deceitful spirit. To avoid this kind of problem it pays to be able to explain *in your own words* how you understand the Scriptures. If you refuse to do this you're not being noble--you're being slick, whether you're conscious of it or not.

2 Tim 2.15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
 

Randy Kluth

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But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says: “I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation, I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.” Romans 10:19

In context, the foolish nation (which is not a nation) is a reference to the church (in contrast to the nation of Israel.)
That verse is a direct quote from the song of Moses in chapter 32 of Deuteronomy and a proof that "replacement theology " is erroneous.

I agree with most of what you shared, except I can't agree with this last statement. The "foolish nation that is not a nation" is a reference to a pagan nation that God uses to punish Israel in a time of their national apostasy. It cannot refer to the Church! The Church consists of *many nations!*

But I can see where you might get that. Paul did say that his ministry to the Gentiles was intended to provoke Israel to jealousy. It's related but not precise.

Paul was drawing upon an OT principle of bringing pagans against Israel to punish them when they turned to paganism. Paul turns this around and continues the theme by claiming God is now using *Christian nations* to make Israel jealous in a time when they've fallen away, as a nation, from their Christ.
 

Randy Kluth

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Yes indeed, as a matter of fact Daniel 11:21-33 maybe 34 is about Antiochus the type Anti-Christ and Daniel 11:36-45 is about the actual end time Anti-Christ.

I won't go beyond this except to say that I've had this conversation with others extensively. My own view is that the last part of Dan 11 is not confusing, is not a double-fulfillment, but it a literal prophecy of Antiochus 4, a major player in the book of Daniel. In fact, I believe the book ends with a reference to his reign of 1290 days in which he harasses and persecutes the Jewish People. It was a major test to the durability of Judaism, since Antiochus attempted to force conversion of the Jews to Hellenism at the point of death.

Every single verse is this last section of Dan 11 appears to be a recapitulation of what had just been said about Antiochus 4, and elucidates upon the issues of concern to those among the Jews who wish to maintain orthodoxy and true worship of the one God. There is no need whatsoever to make this into a "parallel fulfillment," since the prophecy of Antichrist is clearly there in Dan 7, ie the "Little Horn" who reigns for 3.5 years. And the prophecies of Antiochus 4, a kind of foreshadowing of Antichrist, is plainly there in Dan 8 and 11. Just sharing my opinion--not arguing.
 
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Ronald D Milam

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Well it's certainly an interesting observation on potential parallels. So are you of the belief that the Antichrist and False Prophet will be Jewish or Pagan?
They will be the same as in Daniel 11, which is why we get such a detailed rundown in Dan. 11. One will be a Greek born king/president of the E.U. the other will be a Jewish High Priest.

Daniel 8:9 makes it 100 percent clear that the Anti-Christ has to be born in Greece, look at the directions he conquers towards, the East and towards the South and towards Israel, thus we know it means conquering via Israel, thus we see he must come out of the Northwest portion of this four way simple directional box. But Daniel 7:7-8 must also come to pass (as does Isaiah ch. 10, he's Assyrian by blood). So, the Anti-Christ must be born in Greece, via Assyrian (Probably Turkish parents/grandparents) and Greece is in the E.U. which is the 10, the number 10 simply means completeness. Not 10 nations, but the complete number thereof via Europe who reemerges as the Fourth Beast on a map so to speak, but its led by one man this time. We can see this in Dan. 11:40-43, he conquers the whole Mediterranean Sea Region, which is why this High Priest throws in with him, or one reason he throws in with this man, the other reason is Israel will be a part of the E.U. by that time.

I think the Anti-Christ is an Atheist, and the False Prophet is a Jesus hater and when 1/3 of the Jews repent just before the Day of the Lord (1260, when the Beast conquers Israel) this High Priest stops Jesus worship in the temple. Has it ever bothered you that Jesus (Man in Linen in Dan. 12) spoke about a profane meat sacrifice being taken away and (COUGH) profaning the temple? Well, its not a meat sacrifice, the False Prophet gets angry when these millions of Jews start worshiping Jesus in the temple (not all at once, lol) and he forbids Jesus worship at the 1290 and places and image of the soon to be Beast, the E.U. President up in the temple of God, that is the coming AoD.

By the way, Israel and the E.U. along with THE MANY (Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Algeria, Syria, Morocco, Libya and Tunisia) currently have 7 year deals/agreements in place, I joke not. Its called the European Neighborhood Policy as seen here on Wikipedia European Neighbourhood Policy - Wikipedia and if you look at the map on that page and combine both the E.U. (blue) with with these MANY plus Israel (orange), it looks just like the old Roman Empire on a map. It covers every square inch of the Mediterranean Sea Coastline, the other three Beast kingdoms were more Eastern Centric kingdoms.

When I ran across that on Wiki I almost choked, it shows they had agreements from 2007-2013 and 2014-2020. Of course Satan will have these agreements in place, it took China and the USA 3 years to get a trade deal, thus Satan will be ready, when his man comes to power just after the Rapture of the Church, he will then FORCE OR CONFIRM (gabor in Hebrew means an insolent action) Israel to make some concessions (give up their nukes) in order to become a member of the E.U. which they so desperately want now. They play soccer in the Euros. They will be sold this imho, we (E.U.) can be unto you (Israel) as the USA has been unto Hawaii, your protector !! Give up your nukes and you can become an E.U. Member.

HOOK LINE AND SINKER !!
 

Ronald D Milam

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I won't go beyond this except to say that I've had this conversation with others extensively. My own view is that the last part of Dan 11 is not confusing, is not a double-fulfillment, but it a literal prophecy of Antiochus 4, a major player in the book of Daniel. In fact, I believe the book ends with a reference to his reign of 1290 days in which he harasses and persecutes the Jewish People. It was a major test to the durability of Judaism, since Antiochus attempted to force conversion of the Jews to Hellenism at the point of death.

Every single verse is this last section of Dan 11 appears to be a recapitulation of what had said just been said about Antiochus 4, and elucidates upon the issues of concern to those among the Jews who wish to maintain orthodoxy and true worship of the one God. There is no need whatsoever to make this into a "parallel fulfillment," since the prophecy of Antichrist is clearly there in Dan 7, ie the "Little Horn" who reigns for 3.5 years. And the prophecies of Antiochus 4, a kind of foreshadowing of Antichrist, is plainly there in Dan 8 and 11. Just sharing my opinion--not arguing.

Its ok to have a belief as long as we are open to proofs if shown those proofs. I used to be a firm believer in 21 judgments via the Seals, Trumps and Vials, while some were of the belief that the Seals, Trumps and Vials all covered the exact same time period. Well, they weren't correct, but neither was I, the Seals are not Judgments at all, but Jesus prophesying what will come when all 7 Seals are loosed off of the scroll. This is why the Trumps and Vials have Angels readying the Judgments, but the Seals do not.

Anyway, back to the discussion at hand. I can prove Dan. 11:36-45 is end times if you will ponder on a few salient points brother. Dan. 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor[regard] the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Dan. 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

  1. This can't be Antiochus because he sacrificed a pig unto Zeus, but verse 37 says he wont regard any god
  2. As we see in verse 41, this end time Anti-Christ can't conquer the Ammon, Moab and Edom areas, and that is the Mountains which the end time Jews will flee unto.
  3. We see this end time Anti-Christ conquers Egypt, I will show in my exegesis below what Antiochus did not do that, three Roman Senators forbade him from conquering Egypt again, thus he never conquered them again, he died on the Eastern front.
Here is three more verses of my Exegesis.

28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

Antiochus Epiphanes returned north it seems because of a rumor that he had died. That rumor seemingly caused a war to breakout in Jerusalem. Antiochus Epiphanes plundered the temple of God, killed many people, then journeyed north to Antioch. (his homeland/birthplace)

29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. 30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

Antiochus Epiphanes soon returned to Egypt with the intention of conquering Alexandria. The Egyptians however sent a message to Rome asking for help. Three Roman senators were sent by ship to inform Antiochus Epiphanes that he was not to invade Egypt and to demand that he retreat immediately. This of course made him angry and he seems to have taken it out on the Jewish believers. He killed them but allowed the Hellenistic Jews to live as long as they forsook the Holy Covenant !! He was indeed a vile man, seemingly a forerunner to the coming Anti-Christ/Beast in some of his mannerisms.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Antiochus Epiphanes defiled the temple of God, stopped the daily sacrifices and even built a pagan alter unto Zeus and sacrificed pigs on it. This was an Abomination unto God, but its not the Abomination that Jesus and Daniel is speaking about of course. This desecrated the temple while it was there.

A little added knowledge on this subject, in verse 29 it says he coms towards the South, but it shall not be as the FORMER (the first time he conquered Egypt) or as THE LATER, which is speaking about when the coming Anti-Christ will indeed conquer Egypt as shown in verses 40-43.

No one can go find any place in History which ever shows Antiochus conquering Egypt again, it never happened brother, Rome forbid him from ever doing that again, so verses 40-43 can not be Antiochus. It can only be the coming End Time Anti-Christ.
 

Hidden In Him

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They will be the same as in Daniel 11, which is why we get such a detailed rundown in Dan. 11. One will be a Greek born king/president of the E.U. the other will be a Jewish High Priest.

Ok, well so you understand, we have differing views on where the Antichrist will arise from. I'm just sort of asking in order to get a better handle on what your eschatology is.
Daniel 8:9 makes it 100 percent clear that the Anti-Christ has to be born in Greece, look at the directions he conquers towards

Here would be a point of departure between us. I think all of Daniel 8 was fulfilled by Antiochus IV, except v. 13-14, which are inserted into the narrative to again leave the suggestion that the end could be at any time (Daniel and Isaiah's era included). But the angels of God here are asking about the ultimate fulfillment of the prophecy and how long it will be before the true Antichrist comes, so these two verses actually point to the end-times that still lay ahead of us. This is another reason why I was asking you about partial fulfillments.

Anyway, here's a piece about how the rest of Daniel 8 was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes. He gives an application for how v.13-14 were potentially "fulfilled" back then as well, but my position is that the answer given by the other angel was ultimately in reference to the 3 and 1/2 years of the end-time tribulation before the Day of wrath and Christ's return:
Daniel Chapter 8
 

Randy Kluth

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They will be the same as in Daniel 11, which is why we get such a detailed rundown in Dan. 11. One will be a Greek born king/president of the E.U. the other will be a Jewish High Priest.

Daniel 8:9 makes it 100 percent clear that the Anti-Christ has to be born in Greece

From experience, and surely from yours as well, you don't want to *ever* say "100% clear" unless indeed it's "100% clear!" ;) In this case, not only is it not clear to me, I don't know why it's "clear" to you either?

Dan 8, as I've read it for years, has to do with Alexander the Great, Persia, and ultimately Antiochus 4. The "other horn" that arises among the 4 horns, emerging from Alexander's Empire, is in my view Antiochus 4--not the Antichrist!

Of course, if you read these things as having parallel fulfillments, which I think is irrational, then you might come up with two different figures for the "other horn?" But to avoid confusion, I stick with the literal, historical fulfillment when Antiochus 4 emerged from Alexander's Empire. The totality of years from the beginning of the Jewish apostasy to the death of Antiochus was "2300 days."

To be clear, I'm not insulting "dual fulfillment" in the sense of "foreshadowings." But there can only be one actual meaning to a biblical passage. To say someone is saying two things at the same time is irrational.

I think the Anti-Christ is an Atheist, and the False Prophet is a Jesus hater and when 1/3 of the Jews repent just before the Day of the Lord (1260, when the Beast conquers Israel) this High Priest stops Jesus worship in the temple. Has it ever bothered you that Jesus (Man in Linen in Dan. 12) spoke about a profane meat sacrifice being taken away and (COUGH) profaning the temple? Well, its not a meat sacrifice, the False Prophet gets angry when these millions of Jews start worshiping Jesus in the temple (not all at once, lol) and he forbids Jesus worship at the 1290 and places and image of the soon to be Beast, the E.U. President up in the temple of God, that is the coming AoD.

I get your parallel with Antiochus 4 and the Jewish Priest. It appears to present a pattern for a Gentile Antichrist and a Jewish False Prophet. But I don't see any problem with seeing the pattern differently, as a European Antichrist and a European False Pope? Why do the Jews have to figure into it at all, except that in Dan 7 the Antichrist presents a major disturbance to all saints, including the Jews?

Much of the OT Scriptures had to do with Israel's history. But God began with Israel as a plan to reach out to the whole world. Israel's history became a model and a warning for future Christian nations. We don't have to read Antiochus 4, and his persecution of Israel, and apply the False Prophet of Revelation strictly to Israel.

The False Prophet has two horns like a lamb. This may indicate he speaks "Christianese," a message of "peace." Christian Rome had two horns, the Eastern branch and the Western branch. They roughly are the equivalent of the Orthodox and Catholic branches of the Christian Church. Perhaps the False Prophet will be a kind of False Pope presiding over both branches of the historic Church, attempting to lead it astray?

By the way, Israel and the E.U. along with THE MANY (Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Algeria, Syria, Morocco, Libya and Tunisia) currently have 7 year deals/agreements in place, I joke not.

Dan 9 does not appear to refer to a 7 year "Peace Treaty!" It is a difficult prophecy, but I think it refers to Christ's 1st Coming to validate the OT Law as fulfilled in his death. He confirms the Covenant for a period of "one Week," but that one Week becomes only half a Week when Christ is "cut off" in the "midst of the Week."

There is no Peace Treaty that Antichrist enters into, that I can see. Satan is vicious, though he does lie and pretend. I think the False Prophet may fit the bill for acting "deceitfully." But he will be as vicious as the Antichrist, seeing to it that the saints are put to death for refusing the mark. What the "mark" is is a whole other conversation! ;)

When I ran across that on Wiki I almost choked, it shows they had agreements from 2007-2013 and 2014-2020. Of course Satan will have these agreements in place, it took China and the USA 3 years to get a trade deal, thus Satan will be ready, when his man comes to power just after the Rapture of the Church

You lose me there. I've been reading the Bible for decades and have yet to come across any explicit theology in the Bible teaching a Pretrib Rapture? There you go! ;)
 

michaelvpardo

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Yes indeed, as a matter of fact Daniel 11:21-33 maybe 34 is about Antiochus the type Anti-Christ and Daniel 11:36-45 is about the actual end time Anti-Christ. I did an Exegesis of Daniel 11 & 12 where I pinpointed every king and all the players in each verse and spelled out in detail what the verse meant and all the players, and I came across a key figure no one really talks about, tbh, I wrote the Exegesis and vaguely mentioned him and his brother, who were both High Priests. I will give the first two verses and how I interpreted Jason in a limited manner, which I later understood was a grave error.

21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Antiochus IV then became king, he is called a vile person. He became king via a series of maneuvers which included flattering the king of Pergamum to gain his allegiance and by the death of the heir to the throne.

22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

The High Priest (prince of the covenant) was replaced via a conspiracy involving the high priests brother and Antiochus Epiphanes but his brother was also double crossed when another priest bribed Antiochus Epiphanes with even more money, it seems he was for sale at all times for a price. Jason (real name Yeshua) bribed Antiochus

So, this above was the extent of my thoughts at the time on Jason, but I realized later on, that I had missed the other type, we have Antiochus the type Anti-Christ and we also have the type False Prophet in Jason. He bribed Antiochus who then killed Onias III who was Jason's real life brother and a pious High Priest, Jason then welcomed Antiochus into the temple and allowed him to sacrifice a pig unto Zeus, he then tried to Hellenize the Jews leading to the infamous Maccabean Revolt.

So, one day it suddenly hit me as I was looking at all my notes, hold up I thought, by being diligent in my studies, God had given me not only that which is a known entity in the bible, the Anti-Christ's type in Antiochus, (which was well known anyway) but I had also learned he had a Jewish High Priest running mate, who tried to get the Jews to change their culture from Jewish unto the Greek culture (he seeks to change times and laws can mean traditions and culture, I think that's what it actually means, we are seeing it again now throughout the world, homosexual marriage acceptance, transsexual acceptance etc.).

So, this rouge High Priest, does everything the end time False Prophet will do. It suddenly hit me, of course if Antiochus was the type he would have a type false prophet by his side. So, yes I believe in "shadows to come", they are seen throughout the bible.

By the way, there is a reason Jason is not mentioned in the bible and a reason why we are not told that the 1290 is the coming False Prophet in Daniel, but are then told by John about the coming False Prophet. If instead of the 1290 numbered AoD Gabriel or Jesus (Man in Linen) had told Daniel about a soon to come false prophet, then the Jewish leaders over the next 500 or so years would have killed every other High Priest thinking he was "the evil one to come" so to speak, just like king Herod tried to kill baby Jesus. But John was indeed told about this in 90ish AD because Jerusalem had already been sacked, thus the threats to the high priest meant nothing, Israel would not be a nation again for near 2000 years. Jason is in the book of Maccabeans, and in Wikipedia, and in the history books.

I do think 70 AD was the original point where God/Jesus would have saved Israel if they had repented, but they have yet to repent. Thus God put off the 70th week and gave us the 2000 some odd year church age.


God Bless.
I enjoyed your post, but you should understand that with God, there is no plan B. The Lord knows the end of a matter from its beginning. He knows what's in our hearts, and there is nothing hidden from Him. This is the quality theologians call "omniscience." I haven't supplied the scriptural support for this understanding, but theologians have done this repeatedly for centuries, and it's relatively easy to spot when reading through scripture.