Heaven (Matthew 4:17)

Bob Estey · Jan 15, 2022

Most people seem to think heaven is a place people go to after they die, but if that is what heaven is, how does one explain this:

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matthew 4:17 RSV

Episkopos · Jan 15, 2022

Bob Estey said:
Most people seem to think heaven is a place people go to after they die, but if that is what heaven is, how does one explain this:

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matthew 4:17 RSV

Jesus could have said... access to Zion in the spiritual realm is about to open up to you. We are to seek the kingdom of God. If the kingdom realm was only available after we die then we would have to be seeking our physical death...which of course is absurd. Through Christ, we have access into the same walk as Jesus had. But that will only happen when we actually enter INTO Him. He is the door into eternal life.

Bob Estey · Jan 15, 2022

Episkopos said:
Jesus could have said... access to Zion in the spiritual realm is about to open up to you. We are to seek the kingdom of God. If the kingdom realm was only available after we die then we would have to be seeking our physical death...which of course is absurd. Through Christ, we have access into the same walk as Jesus had. But that will only happen when we actually enter INTO Him. He is the door into eternal life.

I like your logic - we would be seeking our own physical death if the kingdom realm was only available after we die. Where does repentance enter the conversation?

Lifelong_sinner · Jan 16, 2022

Wow. Its like the crazies took over the crazy house. This aint Heaven in case you’re confused.

amadeus · Jan 16, 2022

Lifelong_sinner said:
Wow. Its like the crazies took over the crazy house. This aint Heaven in case you’re confused.

Where was Jesus when he spoke these words?

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13

VictoryinJesus · Jan 17, 2022

amadeus said:
Where was Jesus when he spoke these words?

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13

I’ve often wondered about this verse. Especially “no man has ascended up to Heaven but he that come down from heaven” in regards to “but he that came down”. This makes me consider taking the lowest seat, or the being told “come up here”. What is “he lowered himself taking on the image of a servant” or that he came down and the same one who came down, was lifted up in that he lowered himself? Or “abased” and “abounding” in whosoever exalts himself will be brought down and whosoever lowers himself will be exalted?

The “whosoever is brought down will be exalted” sounds similar to “he came down from heaven” that He might have preeminence over all things? Does any of that make sense? Many scriptures speaking concerning the position he took “I come not for the righteous but for sinners” or “he eats with sinners” or “nothing good can come out of Nazareth” or “I am here as one who serves” or “in humiliation his judgment was taken away”? Or Isaiah 53:1-10

To me it is important because what does it mean to be born from above? Could it be “whosoever is brought down from above will be exalted”? For instance in
2 Corinthians 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

atpollard · Jan 17, 2022

amadeus said:
Where was Jesus when he spoke these words?

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13

In case @amadeus point was too subtle ... JESUS was the "Kingdom of Heaven" (Heaven being the dwelling place of God) that was "at hand" [Matthew 4:17]. Jesus (GOD) had come down from Heaven to Earth, so the Kingdom of Heaven had come to men while they (WE) still lived.

It seems appropriate to proclaim to men that they better get to repenting if they hope to enter that Kingdom (we are IN CHRIST ... read Ephesians 1:1-23, Ephesians 2:1-10).

amadeus · Jan 17, 2022

VictoryinJesus said:
I’ve often wondered about this verse. Especially “no man has ascended up to Heaven but he that come down from heaven” in regards to “but he that came down”. This makes me consider taking the lowest seat, or the being told “come up here”. What is “he lowered himself taking on the image of a servant” or that he came down and the same one who came down, was lifted up in that he lowered himself? Or “abased” and “abounding” in whosoever exalts himself will be brought down and whosoever lowers himself will be exalted?

The “whosoever is brought down will be exalted” sounds similar to “he came down from heaven” that He might have preeminence over all things? Does any of that make sense? Many scriptures speaking concerning the position he took “I come not for the righteous but for sinners” or “he eats with sinners” or “nothing good can come out of Nazareth” or “I am here as one who serves” or “in humiliation his judgment was taken away”? Or Isaiah 53:1-10

To me it is important because what does it mean to be born from above? Could it be “whosoever is brought down from above will be exalted”? For instance in
2 Corinthians 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Look for three heavens if you can within that verse I quoted.

Look then at the three levels of creatures "saved" in the ark that Noah built according to God's precise instructions.

Look then for three levels within the tabernacle in the wilderness which Moses built according to God's precise instructions.

Unclean beasts were saved. Clean beasts were saved. Men were saved. Where to from there? Was not Jesus present in all three levels?

The natural children of Israel did not, for the most part, have a clue about the real meaning or even the shadow of the real meaning to their repeated sacrifices taken into the tabenacle in the wilderness. Why did Caleb and Joshua live to enter into the Promised Land while the rest of those "saved" out of their enslavement in Egypt died in the wilderness?

Are men beasts living in accord with their own beastly ways?

What did Solomon write about that?

"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov. 9:1-2

amadeus · Jan 17, 2022

atpollard said:
In case @amadeus point was too subtle ... JESUS was the "Kingdom of Heaven" (Heaven being the dwelling place of God) that was "at hand" [Matthew 4:17]. Jesus (GOD) had come down from Heaven to Earth, so the Kingdom of Heaven had come to men while they (WE) still lived.

It seems appropriate to proclaim to men that they better get to repenting if they hope to enter that Kingdom (we are IN CHRIST ... read Ephesians 1:1-23, Ephesians 2:1-10).

"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath" Matt 13:10-12

Or...

"Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have." Luke 8:18

Anyone here seem to someone [perhaps even himself] to have salvation?

Saved from the flood waters as with Noah, but then... because the beasts were never killed...? Consider what Paul names as the "old man"!

bbyrd009 · Jan 17, 2022

Bob Estey said:
I like your logic - we would be seeking our own physical death if the kingdom realm was only available after we die. Where does repentance enter the conversation?

fwiw bob i dont think “repent” is such a good translation, as the Catholic notion of “penance” is invoked, Strong's Greek: 3340. μετανοέω (metanoeó) -- to change one's mind or purpose
ive heard “rebound” used instead, dunno though

bbyrd009 · Jan 17, 2022

Lifelong_sinner said:
Wow. Its like the crazies took over the crazy house. This aint Heaven in case you’re confused.

ha well it may not be for you, us, but nonetheless the kingdom of heaven is within right so it seems like we are called to just that perspective eh

hard to remember that we live in a virtual miracle right now, i guess

Bob Estey · Jan 17, 2022

bbyrd009 said:
fwiw bob i dont think “repent” is such a good translation, as the Catholic notion of “penance” is invoked, Strong's Greek: 3340. μετανοέω (metanoeó) -- to change one's mind or purpose
ive heard “rebound” used instead, dunno though

I think Matthew 4:17 is telling us to stop sinning. People who like to sin might find another way to interpret Matthew 4:17.

bbyrd009 · Jan 17, 2022

Bob Estey said:
I think Matthew 4:17 is telling us to stop sinning. People who like to sin might find another way to interpret Matthew 4:17.

well, my response there is ppl into forgiveness dont really care too much, prolly

Bob Estey · Jan 17, 2022

bbyrd009 said:
well, my response there is ppl into forgiveness dont really care too much, prolly

I find when I sin, life is unpleasant. When I don't sin, I have peace. I think that is worth sharing. I think Matthew 4:17 is saying the same thing.

VictoryinJesus · Jan 18, 2022

amadeus said:
Look for three heavens if you can within that verse I quoted.

Look then at the three levels of creatures "saved" in the ark that Noah built according to God's precise instructions.

Look then for three levels within the tabernacle in the wilderness which Moses built according to God's precise instructions.

Unclean beasts were saved. Clean beasts were saved. Men were saved. Where to from there? Was not Jesus present in all three levels?

The natural children of Israel did not, for the most part, have a clue about the real meaning or even the shadow of the real meaning to their repeated sacrifices taken into the tabenacle in the wilderness. Why did Caleb and Joshua live to enter into the Promised Land while the rest of those "saved" out of their enslavement in Egypt died in the wilderness?

Are men beasts living in accord with their own beastly ways?

What did Solomon write about that?

"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov. 9:1-2

I have so many questions that I’m not expecting to be answered but I still have them. For example “wisdom has built her house”. There are two wisdoms spoken of one) devilish which descends not from above (instead sits where it ought to not be sitting?) and is earthly. Another wisdom descends (comes down?) from above first is pure, then gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits (instead of being full of all unrighteousness?) without partiality, without hypocrisy.

without partiality, another question is pertaining to the ark Noah built with three levels (three levels of heaven?). How does Noah’s ark whereby only eight were saved differ from the ark built of God in the NT with Christ as the foundation? The working of the Spirit, The Ark that grows up in Christ, built for an habitation of of God? This Ark here Ephesians 2:17-22. Question being in Noah’s ark there were those unclean beast. but what is unclean in the Ark God has built which could be the same as asking: what unclean enters into Christ except it first is burned and remains not?

third and final question is pertaining to Paul’s confession of being caught up to the third heaven. I would not bet my life on it but I still wonder how that automatically becomes Paul who was caught up to the third heaven. When Paul said he knew a man …whether in the body or out of the body he could not tell “knowing this man” but of this man he will boast. What of the other scriptures where Paul mentions his boast being in Christ, always. How if he boast, he will make his boast of Christ. So how do we know for certain Paul is speaking about himself as the one caught up to the third heaven and not Christ who is caught up?

2 Corinthians 12:2-65 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

2 Corinthians 12:9-10.

amadeus · Jan 18, 2022

@VictoryinJesus
Mostly my post asked rather than answered questions. What are God's answers for me is the question for me? Who is me? For me typing at this moment, it is Amadeus. For you it is @VictoryinJesus.

I will try to respond here with something you can understand and hopefully use, but some people on here as you already know will oppose even the possibility and some quite harshly at that. Who is right? Always, God is right. Each of us hopefully is striving to always be on His side even though too often we may seem in a man's eye view to be diametrically opposed to each other. Can both be right? I believe, sometimes, yes.

I believe sincerely that in order to grow closer to God, a person must admit the possibility that he is in error on doctrines or beliefs. Some people, I believe, will not sincerely admit that as a possibility in themselves.

Does God have anything more to offer to anyone? Is there anyone to whom God has nothing further to offer?

VictoryinJesus said:
I have so many questions that I’m not expecting to be answered but I still have them. For example “wisdom has built her house”. There are two wisdoms spoken of one) devilish which descends not from above (instead sits where it ought to not be sitting?) and is earthly. Another wisdom descends (comes down?) from above first is pure, then gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits (instead of being full of all unrighteousness?) without partiality, without hypocrisy.

Who among us... that is among those of who believe in God, are still in any measure double-minded? Perhaps a better question would be... Who is not?

"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." James 1:8

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." James 4:7-8

"That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." Eph 4:22-24

At this point some would quote these verses also penned by Paul wanting it seems to say the old man is already gone from them:

"But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:" Col. 3:8-10

If he, the old man, is gone completely, why then do they/we find ourselves angry, wrathful, full of malice toward others, blaspheming even, speaking filthy thing and lying still? They try, it seems to me, to blame it on God or on Jesus or on both, as they say it the righteousness of God is in effect imputed onto them. LOL! If they really are things repugnant and /or abominable to God, why does He, the omnipotent One, stop it there? Is God unable or is it that someone has really not received what he says he has received or is that he has not understood what he thought he understood? What is wrong with presuming the worst in ourselves as the eyes of men even can see that worst? If it looks like sin to anyone, take the way the publican, here:

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 18:10-14

Then might some today seem to say or actually say, "Oh but I am better than either the publican or the Pharisee. I have Jesus and he has already taken care of it all. I do not need to humble myself before man [or God] any more at all."

For whom is that true? Are any of us, already so increased that we are equal to God in knowing all things and never in need of correction, chastisement or further improvement? Who is able to say with absolute clear conscience that they have no further need of repentance at all ever anymore?

We are, I believe, undergoing a testing period here to see how well we are handling what we have been given. The testing is not done until we either die naturally or we have overcome all of our temptations prior to that. Neither God nor Jesus do that for us. They help through the power of the Holy Spirit in us... if we are not quenching the Holy Spirit in us and following our own heads.

bbyrd009 · Jan 18, 2022

VictoryinJesus said:
I have so many questions that I’m not expecting to be answered but I still have them. For example “wisdom has built her house”. There are two wisdoms spoken of one) devilish which descends not from above (instead sits where it ought to not be sitting?) and is earthly. Another wisdom descends (comes down?) from above first is pure, then gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits (instead of being full of all unrighteousness?) without partiality, without hypocrisy.

i guess the snake meant more like “worldly wisdom” to them, whereas we consider snakes “evil” now, but that is likely a pretty biased pov? Imo we need both, iow we need the RCC right now, we need civil authority, etc

VictoryinJesus said:
without partiality, another question is pertaining to the ark Noah built with three levels (three levels of heaven?). How does Noah’s ark whereby only eight were saved differ from the ark built of God in the NT with Christ as the foundation? The working of the Spirit, The Ark that grows up in Christ, built for an habitation of of God? This Ark here Ephesians 2:17-22. Question being in Noah’s ark there were those unclean beast. but what is unclean in the Ark God has built which could be the same as asking: what unclean enters into Christ except it first is burned and remains not?

visions of passing children through the fire here, but anyway little kids “transgress” all the time, right, yet we give them a pass, maybe even record a little movie of the transgression and pass it around for its cuteness, etc?

VictoryinJesus said:
third and final question is pertaining to Paul’s confession of being caught up to the third heaven. I would not bet my life on it but I still wonder how that automatically becomes Paul who was caught up to the third heaven. When Paul said he knew a man …whether in the body or out of the body he could not tell “knowing this man” but of this man he will boast. What of the other scriptures where Paul mentions his boast being in Christ, always. How if he boast, he will make his boast of Christ. So how do we know for certain Paul is speaking about himself as the one caught up to the third heaven and not Christ who is caught up?

i think the q might be moot? But Paul did say “I know a man in Christ…” right, so there’s that

amadeus · Jan 18, 2022

VictoryinJesus said:
... another question is pertaining to the ark Noah built with three levels (three levels of heaven?). How does Noah’s ark whereby only eight were saved differ from the ark built of God in the NT with Christ as the foundation? The working of the Spirit, The Ark that grows up in Christ, built for an habitation of of God? This Ark here Ephesians 2:17-22. Question being in Noah’s ark there were those unclean beast. but what is unclean in the Ark God has built which could be the same as asking: what unclean enters into Christ except it first is burned and remains not?

The ark built by Noah was for us, a type or shadow of the people today, who have separated themselves from the general mass/mess of mankind that dwells in the foul killing waters of death upon which Peter walked, moving toward Jesus.

The ones, who never came into the ark at all, are those, who were already dead to God and had no interest in encountering the real Life which God provided through His Son, Jesus. What those dead men had/have, they call life, but to God it is not. It is simply death.

"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:22

People come to God... perhaps in a physical church setting... that first time, but do you not see the differences in such people? How many levels of heaven are there here?

1) How many do not sin at all?
2) How many are striving not to sin at all?
3) How many have effectively changed little or nothing from their previous lifestyles?

Are there any dead men in our church gatherings?

What happens when it is time to get out of the ark? Do not many simply want to stay where they are, not growing and not dying? Is that not still effective death, or perhaps more clearly understood for any who are able to understand it, stagnation?

What are, in each of the three cases, they ready for? What does a person need to overcome to be allowed to partake of the Life which God has for us?

What does God want of the beasts of men, the men not in hell, but in the two lower levels of heaven? He wants them to be finally saved, not only for the moment, as occurred with most of the natural children of Israel, who were saved out of bondage in Egypt and then died in the wilderness without ever crossing over Jordan into the Promised Land.

That for us was another type or shadow!

What was the difference with Caleb and Joshua?

Consider the unclean water on top of which Peter walked and into which he started to sink... versus the Living Water about which Jesus spoke to the woman of Samaria at the well. Peter walked on top walked on that water of death to go to Jesus, but he failed to realize how important was the focal point of his eyes. He looked away from Jesus!

Heaven, [or the heavens], is the dwelling place of Life, of Living creatures. Adam and Eve were alive in the Garden of Eden but how and why did that life come to an end? In their beginning, they were apparently sinless, but they were tempted. How close were they to being overcomers? For how long does, 'close', make a difference?

They died before God, but He left them with hope... Hope, which became a real possibility of Life reborn from above, when Jesus brought what he brought to men. What did he bring?

Men proceeded backward and downward from Eden farther and farther always from God and the Life which had been within their reach in Eden. Men chose the wrong tree then and, even with Jesus available and the Holy Spirit, most men it seems still choose the wrong tree now.

Most of the unclean beasts do not want to be cleaned up. They receive pleasure in and from their filthy ways.

The clean beasts do not want to get rid of even their cleaner beastly ways. They still receive their beastly pleasures here.

How far down from heaven to hell?

What is the Way to the top of the ark? How many people are at times in one level or another of heaven now?

Jesus paid the price of sin... but he did not do away with anyone's beastly habits or temptations: Only his own temptations... and he had never formed any beastly habits.

So then men come to God repenting that first time, but most of them continue to be tempted and quite frequently find themselves succumbing to those temptations because of their beastly habits [not sin in themselves, but leading to sin when followed]... and sinning again.

God knew what the trouble was and made a way to overcome the beasts, unclean or clean, and their beastly ways [the ways of carnal men], by the power of the Holy Spirit. A lot of men in their church settings have learned, or been taught, how to bypass the Spirit of God with their church rules and hierarchies and service outlines, which often [always?] put men at the top/head rather than God.

Can you see the three levels of heaven? Anyone not in one of them, but walking around is a zombie indeed, a walking dead man, already in hell.

amadeus · Jan 18, 2022

VictoryinJesus said:
...
third and final question is pertaining to Paul’s confession of being caught up to the third heaven. I would not bet my life on it but I still wonder how that automatically becomes Paul who was caught up to the third heaven. When Paul said he knew a man …

I do not believe that I have ever said that it was Paul, himself. Did Paul ever overcome all of his sinful ways, the beastly ways of men, unclean or unclean? I do not know and simply must say, perhaps. Paul was given a whole lot by God, but how well was he doing with what he had at the end of his course?

With the following words he speaks for himself, but I, myself, do not want to presume anything about that, and God has not given me a revelation about Paul's end either. This perhaps could be called his own testimony. Should we doubt it? I strive to leave people testimonies alone... unless I have no doubt that God wants something else from me:

"For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." II Tim 4:6-8

whether in the body or out of the body he could not tell “knowing this man” but of this man he will boast. What of the other scriptures where Paul mentions his boast being in Christ, always. How if he boast, he will make his boast of Christ. So how do we know for certain Paul is speaking about himself as the one caught up to the third heaven and not Christ who is caught up?

I don't know and will not speculate as that is not in my own job description.

2 Corinthians 12:2-65 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
2 Corinthians 12:9-10.

Consider here the warning that Paul gave to us with regard to following him, that is, following Paul:

"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1

Keep our eyes on Christ. If there is a man to be followed, be it Paul, or our pastor, or our spouse, or parent... let us follow carefully as God allows, provides and directs.

VictoryinJesus · Jan 18, 2022

amadeus said:
I do not believe that I have ever said that it was Paul, himself

never once were you in my thoughts to imply you had claimed such. I was speaking only from what I’ve often heard only. Even debating when did this being caught up to the the third heaven of Paul take place(if I remember it correctly) suggested possibly at when he was drawn out of the city, stoned and it was proposed that he was dead. I was also only sharing a question I’ve had.

Heaven (Matthew 4:17)

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