Salvation is by Grace through Faith.
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1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Faith that Jesus is stronger than we are, and we cannot be good enough on our own to enter heaven - we need Him to change us and make us born again as He said we must be. The grace we receive is the divine power 2 Peter 1:2-4 of God to be able to partake of the divine nature of God, no longer our old carnal nature. Romans 6:6-7. This is when we are filled with the Spirit of Christ. Romans 8:9. Otherwise we don't belong to Him. The modern church doesn't teach this, but instead teach toward itching ears that having faith in Jesus means we can sin up a storm and go to heaven in the end. (heresy). The truth is John 8:32-36. Jesus takes away our sin, and doesn't merely cover it up out of sight as is taught in the modern church.
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Salvation is by grace through the means of faith dealt to you by God.
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
Romans 4
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”
The grace always comes before the faith, God's gift of faith is according to His grace for by grace are you saved through faith.
Ephesians 2
New King James Version
By Grace Through Faith
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
See according to God's grace, you have been saved by His gift to you of your faith.
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”
The grace always comes before the faith, God's gift of faith is according to His grace for by grace are you saved through faith.
Ephesians 2
New King James Version
By Grace Through Faith
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
See according to God's grace, you have been saved by His gift to you of your faith.
If it was a faith created by you, then it would not last, you would not believe until the end, you would fall away, it would not be sure.
Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed
And God seals you in the Holy Spirit after you believe, thus guaranteeing your faith will endure trials and tribulations.
His whole point is saving the lost sheep of Christ that God has given to Christ, and His will is that none of them be lost.
The seed here are the seed of Abraham according to the Spirit snd not the flesh. it is only them that Christ aids to salvation, his descendants, as God tells it like this, In Isaac your seed shall be THE CALLED, Isaac being a child of promise that God made to Abraham that he would have a son.
Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed
And God seals you in the Holy Spirit after you believe, thus guaranteeing your faith will endure trials and tribulations.
His whole point is saving the lost sheep of Christ that God has given to Christ, and His will is that none of them be lost.
The seed here are the seed of Abraham according to the Spirit snd not the flesh. it is only them that Christ aids to salvation, his descendants, as God tells it like this, In Isaac your seed shall be THE CALLED, Isaac being a child of promise that God made to Abraham that he would have a son.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
Faith is just trusting the Lord, it seems to me. It applies to all aspects of our lives.
The church must use judgment - it musn't presume the Lord approves of all its whims. If Pastor John Doe wants to build a gold temple on the top of a mountain, and proposes the church goes deep into debt to pay for the temple, one can't presume the Lord will provide the money to pay back the loan.
Such a situation is saying God was not leading the man there, he did it on his own, and the man hoped God would comply with his plan.
the man's faith was totally misplaced contrary to God's will for the situation. If the man is boasting about this or that thing, James says such a thing the man did is evil.
If God is not in it, it wont be successful. Jesus tells us without Him we can do nothing.
James has the right attitude, as does Moses about 'following' the Lord, Israel in the wilderness literally did that.
13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; 14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.” 16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.
Numbers 9
15 Now on the day that the tabernacle was raised up, the cloud covered the tabernacle, the tent of the Testimony; from evening until morning it was above the tabernacle like the appearance of fire. 16 So it was always: the cloud covered it by day, and the appearance of fire by night. 17 Whenever the cloud was taken up from above the tabernacle, after that the children of Israel would journey; and in the place where the cloud settled, there the children of Israel would pitch their tents. 18 At the command of the Lord the children of Israel would journey, and at the command of the Lord they would camp; as long as the cloud stayed above the tabernacle they remained encamped. 19 Even when the cloud continued long, many days above the tabernacle, the children of Israel kept the charge of the Lord and did not journey
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
Trust is a part of Faith but taken as a whole for salvation would be error.
The Greek has the noun Pistis where we get our English word Faith. The Greek also has a corresponding verb to noun pistis, pisteuo. Pisteuo is a verb an action word. The English language didnt have a corresponding verb to our noun Faith like the Greek does. The words that should have been available are faithe, faither, and faithing. Wycliffe chose to use the words believe, believer, and believing to translate pisteuo.
Pisteuo is defined in the Vines Greek dictionary as, "A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender
The Strongs gives the disclaimer, "Pisteuo means not just to believe."
The A, B, C's of Faith are action, based upon a belief, sustained by confidense. The act, a continually surrendered life. Based upon a belief, that God will accept the surrendered life. sustained by confidense, That all the many little daily decisions we make support the fact our lives are not ours anymore but His now. Trust would be a product of this process.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
"Grace through faith" means both God and man have a role in man being saved....man's role is having faith which come by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17) and God's role is providing grace. It also means God has made receiving His grace conditional upon man having faith. And since man's faith will not be perfectly sinless, then grace is necessary to bridge the gap that sin can create between God and man. Though grace is a free gift therefore cannot be earned, it does come with conditions as belief, repentance, confession and baptism and obeying in meeting these preconditions does not, cannot in anyway earn the free gift. If grace were completely UNconditional then all men universally would receive grace and be saved, (Titus 2:11) but that is not the case (Matthew 7:13).
Lastly, Ephesians 2:8 says "faith", it does NOT say 'faith only' nor does it say "grace only". 'Faith' and 'faith only' are NOT the same thing...faith justifies (Romans 5:1) but faith only does not justify (James 2:24). If faith and faith only were the same thing then both would justify or neither one would justify. The difference is faith includes obeying God's will while faith only is void of obeying God's will. No one ever UNconditionally received grace as long as they continue, remain in disobedience, defiance of obeying God's will. One must FIRST CONDITIONALLY have an obedient faith THEN one receives grace. And since faith is what gives access to grace (Romans 5:2) one must conditionally keep faith for life for if one casts away his faith (Hebrews 3:12; 1 Timothy 5:12) he no longer will have access to grace.....no such thing as having UNconditional access to grace. (Paul refutes "grace only" in Romans 6)
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For the most part i agree with your understanding.
But i don't think our relationship with Christ is a partnership of sorts. We surrender daily, live life making decisions that support such surrender, We don't bring any terms to the table. we surrender to be a slave to the one we surrender to.
The relationship gets into the deeper truths of God which are paradoxes, a discussion for another time.
I agree that Grace cannot be earned, but salvation is conditional to a correct response to the Fathers call. That correct response is Pisteuo, A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender. This response begins the journey through the acceptance, the testing ground or parable of the sower, the grafting process, and then receiving the Spirit of Christ. Once the Spirit of Christ is sealed in us, the obedience comes from the Spirit inside. Just as Paul said in Rom 7:14-21, its not me doing it but sin dwelling in me doing it. Well it's the same on the other side, if he does something he wants to do, it's not him doing it but the Spirit of Christ in him doing it.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Faith is a determination that one is trustworthy that they can rely on that person, they are assured that that person can and will do what they say. And is confident it will happen no matter what
1. The Bible says we are sinners, and as sinners, we have fallen short of the glory of God. The penalty of that is death.
A person who has faith is assured and confident that the person (God) who made this declaration can be trusted. And that that person (God) is justified in making this statement, This would bring t a person to the knowledge that they are without hope. They have nothing to offer God. They are guilty, and that God will carry out his judgment. This would make them “poor in spirit” Which Jesus said must Occure before one can enter the kingdom of God
2. The Bible says there is only one way that number 1 can be overcome and a person then be saved. That is through Christ, the lamb of God who came to take away the sin of the world.
A person who has faith understands there is nothing they can do (no work possible) They believe as the law showed. The only means of redemption and atonement is through the sacrifice of one who is innocent. They then then become confident, assured and entrust their eternity to the one who came to save or rescue them, by hanging on a cross and becoming sin for us. Having wiped out number 1 which was against us and contrary to us and nailed it to the cross
3. The Bible says that once we have faith in number 2. If we call out to him in faith, and ask him to apply the atoning sacrifice to our account We will never perish but have eternal life. We are given the seal of the spirit as a pledge of this life. This seal binding until the day of redemption.
A person who has faith understands this hope. Which comes by hearing and understanding, or eternal life (eternity with God) is given to all who by Faith call on the name of the lord. They are confident and assured that what God promised, the hope they are trusting (in the hope of eternal life, which God who can not lie, promised before time began) will come true, no matter what happens, Because God is trustworthy. And for this reason, like the tax collector. Becoming bankrupt (poor) in spirit. On their knees, or in their chairs or in their beds or wherever call out to Jesus, and they have faith and are assured God will do what he promised.
Anything short of this is not faith. Mere belief is not faith. One can believe someone, but have no trust or assurance in that person. We see this all the time in our daily lives.
1. The Bible says we are sinners, and as sinners, we have fallen short of the glory of God. The penalty of that is death.
A person who has faith is assured and confident that the person (God) who made this declaration can be trusted. And that that person (God) is justified in making this statement, This would bring t a person to the knowledge that they are without hope. They have nothing to offer God. They are guilty, and that God will carry out his judgment. This would make them “poor in spirit” Which Jesus said must Occure before one can enter the kingdom of God
2. The Bible says there is only one way that number 1 can be overcome and a person then be saved. That is through Christ, the lamb of God who came to take away the sin of the world.
A person who has faith understands there is nothing they can do (no work possible) They believe as the law showed. The only means of redemption and atonement is through the sacrifice of one who is innocent. They then then become confident, assured and entrust their eternity to the one who came to save or rescue them, by hanging on a cross and becoming sin for us. Having wiped out number 1 which was against us and contrary to us and nailed it to the cross
3. The Bible says that once we have faith in number 2. If we call out to him in faith, and ask him to apply the atoning sacrifice to our account We will never perish but have eternal life. We are given the seal of the spirit as a pledge of this life. This seal binding until the day of redemption.
A person who has faith understands this hope. Which comes by hearing and understanding, or eternal life (eternity with God) is given to all who by Faith call on the name of the lord. They are confident and assured that what God promised, the hope they are trusting (in the hope of eternal life, which God who can not lie, promised before time began) will come true, no matter what happens, Because God is trustworthy. And for this reason, like the tax collector. Becoming bankrupt (poor) in spirit. On their knees, or in their chairs or in their beds or wherever call out to Jesus, and they have faith and are assured God will do what he promised.
Anything short of this is not faith. Mere belief is not faith. One can believe someone, but have no trust or assurance in that person. We see this all the time in our daily lives.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
There is a synergy that takes place where BOTH God and man have a role in man's salvation...no monergism. If man has no role in his own salvation then how will it be determined who will or will not be saved? Monergism makes God culable for the faithless/lost making God a respecter of person of whom He chooses to save or not save when He isn't (Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35). Therefore it is incumbent upon man, a responsibility given to man to believe (pisteuo) thereby meeting a condition God has placed upon reception of His grace. So the unbeliever (apisteou) can rightly, justly be condemned by God for choosing to not believe.
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Hmm. Faither, There's an implication in your question that "today's church" and the early church might be at odds with each other where Biblical doctrine is concerned. No matter since sound doctrine is still available in some churches today.
Faith is the conduit through which grace flows from God, and the corridor through which access to God's grace is gained, as per these references:
Eph 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (9) not of works, lest anyone should boast. (10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
Rom 5:1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, (2) through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Nice to know I am not the only Gene Scott fan out here.....He was an extremely gifted Teacher of God's Word...
Sitting in a chair with four legs and trusting that chair to hold you is a kind of Faith.....when you lift your legs up while sitting in that chair? That’s REAL Faith....
When you put your Salvation COMPLETELY in Jesus Hands—-“ That” is the Faith that will get you Saved....” Nothing But The Blood” ....Nothing.Add to that at your own risk.....
The "synergy" is paradoxical.
Example: The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one entity. but three separate entities at all times , all the time.
Example: Jesus was 100% man and 100% God at all times, in all respects, in every way. Christianity requires this going out the gate.
Jesus taught.
Example: 1) You live by dying, you live and not live at the same time.
2) The first shall be last, and the last shall be first. You're first and last at the same time.
3) If you want to be chief, be a servant.
4) You go up and down at the same time.
In the Greek language all these examples are specific, opposite things that are happening simultaneously. These are all paradoxes, Gods frame of understand. Our frame of understanding can't accept these truths. But if we don't acknowledge them, we have no chance to understand Gods word.
Definition of a paradox.
A paradox embraces two things, mutually contradictory, exclusive of one another, but concomitant. Existing at the same time, merged together, both true, yet entirely opposite. The deeper truths of God are all paradoxes.
Not having an understanding of this creates most of the division between the called out ones. We tend to choose one side of the paradoxical truth and throw darts at the other side.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Wasn't he the guy who had a bunch of hot nude chicks riding around on horses, lol? (Not kidding.)
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