Understanding The Great Trib

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teamventure

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Darby actually got the idea from the Edward Irving church in 1830's Great Britain. That still does not excuse Darby from preaching a false doctrine from man that is NOT written anywhere in God's Word. So you only show your Biblical illiteracy by believing such a doctrine because it shows you'd rather listen to men than to study God's written Word for yourself. How many other things do you rely on others to do for you?

You do the very thing you accuse others of. Not surprised. Pretribers understand the context of those scriptures better. Then there's you.
 

teamventure

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In reality, modern Pre-trib Rapture scholars have admitted that the pre-trib rapture theory wasn't taught in a church until Darby in the 1830s Great Britain. The earliest claim they have for the doctrine was by a Catholic monk who partially wrote the idea as a thesis, (still not been substantiated either, just like your above claimed sources also).

So if a few pretrib scholars change their mind then it disproves the rest of them? Rubbish.
 

Davy

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You do the very thing you accuse others of. Not surprised. Pretribers understand the context of those scriptures better. Then there's you.

That's nothing but hot... air... You'd be better off actually STUDYING God's Word for yourself instead of believing on MEN instead of Jesus Christ in HIS Word.
 

Davy

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So if a few pretrib scholars change their mind then it disproves the rest of them? Rubbish.

The actual 'evidence' for the falseness of the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory is how it goes directly against... what Lord Jesus declared for when He comes and gathers His saints:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

KJV

But you cannot read that above Scripture directly by Lord Jesus proclaiming His coming and gathering of His faithful elect AFTER THE TRIBULATION. It would be like holy water burning your skin if you read and heeded that!
 

Taken

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The actual 'evidence' for the falseness of the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory is how it goes directly against... what Lord Jesus declared for when He comes and gathers His saints:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

KJV

But you cannot read that above Scripture directly by Lord Jesus proclaiming His coming and gathering of His faithful elect AFTER THE TRIBULATION. It would be like holy water burning your skin if you read and heeded that!

SINCE you are vehemently AGAINST the Lord RAISING UP (THOSE IN CHIRST) off the face of the Earth... BEFORE the Tribulation....

DO TELL......Do YOU believe “yourself” to have been MADE, BY THE POWER AND WORKS OF GOD......IN CHRIST?

IF SO..........What EXACTLY are YOU going to be DOING ON EARTH, During the Tribulation? IE... WHAT SHALL BE YOUR PURPOSE?
 

Taken

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You do the very thing you accuse others of. Not surprised. Pretribers understand the context of those scriptures better. Then there's you.

Ever notice, how some men go on and on about BEING “SAVED” yet ON EARTH during the Tribulation.......BUT NEVER, have a word to say about exactly WHAT they shall be doing ON EARTH during the Tribulation?
Curiously silent.
 
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Taken

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The actual 'evidence' for the falseness of the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory is how it goes directly against... what Lord Jesus declared for when He comes and gathers His saints:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

But you cannot read that above Scripture directly by Lord Jesus . proclaiming His coming and gathering of His faithful elect AFTER THE TRIBULATION. It would be like holy water burning your skin if you read and heeded that!

@teamventure

Scripture says......the Son of man.

You “Davy” say ..............the Lord Jesus.

Scripture says......the Son of man sends His angel(S) to gather from the four winds.

You “Davy” say...............the Lord Jesus gathers.

WHEN YOU CORRUPT the Truth of Scripture, you end with A CORRUPT conclusion.

Scriptures say.....The Lord descends from Heaven to Clouds.
Scriptures say.....The archangel signals with a Trump.
Scriptures say.....The physically dead, and physically alive IN Christ RISE UP to the Clouds to meet their Lord.

There IS no band of Angels being SENT.
There IS no gathering men IN Christ from the four winds.
There IS ONE archAngel, Trumping a Signal.
There IS all men IN Christ, rising Up, to meet the Lord.
There IS NO men Rising Up, to meet the Son of man!

Changing the Truth into a lie, is Not promoting Gods Truth.
 
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Davy

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SINCE you are vehemently AGAINST the Lord RAISING UP (THOSE IN CHIRST) off the face of the Earth... BEFORE the Tribulation....

DO TELL......Do YOU believe “yourself” to have been MADE, BY THE POWER AND WORKS OF GOD......IN CHRIST?

IF SO..........What EXACTLY are YOU going to be DOING ON EARTH, During the Tribulation? IE... WHAT SHALL BE YOUR PURPOSE?

I am against... the FALSE Pre-tribulational Rapture theory because... GOD is against it! You obviously haven't read Ezekiel 13 where He said He is against those who teach His people to fly to save their souls!
 

Davy

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@teamventure

Scripture says......the Son of man.

You “Davy” say ..............the Lord Jesus.

Scripture says......the Son of man sends His angel(S) to gather from the four winds.

You “Davy” say...............the Lord Jesus gathers.

WHEN YOU CORRUPT the Truth of Scripture, you end with A CORRUPT conclusion.

Scriptures say.....The Lord descends from Heaven to Clouds.
Scriptures say.....The archangel signals with a Trump.
Scriptures say.....The physically dead, and physically alive IN Christ RISE UP to the Clouds to meet their Lord.

There IS no band of Angels being SENT.
There IS no gathering men IN Christ from the four winds.
There IS ONE archAngel, Trumping a Signal.
There IS all men IN Christ, rising Up, to meet the Lord.
There IS NO men Rising Up, to meet the Son of man!

Changing the Truth into a lie, is Not promoting Gods Truth.

YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT I SAY, BECAUSE YOUR EARS AND EYES ARE CLOSED TO GOD'S WORD. IF YOU COULD UNDERSTAND GOD'S WORD, YOU WOULD HEAR ME PROCLAIMING IT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

And your above words you try to put in my mouth which I did not say, is you bearing false witness again!
 

Davy

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SINCE you are vehemently AGAINST the Lord RAISING UP (THOSE IN CHIRST) off the face of the Earth... BEFORE the Tribulation....

DO TELL......Do YOU believe “yourself” to have been MADE, BY THE POWER AND WORKS OF GOD......IN CHRIST?

IF SO..........What EXACTLY are YOU going to be DOING ON EARTH, During the Tribulation? IE... WHAT SHALL BE YOUR PURPOSE?

Christ's FAITHFUL that are 'LEFT BEHIND' (according to the false theory you keep) will be still GRINDING AT THE MILL, working FOR JESUS like He showed!

But you, you will be like the dead "carcase" He foretold of that will be wheresover the fowls are gathered to feast upon the dead! (Matthew 24:28 and Luke 17:34-37).

I might even ask my Lord Jesus if He will put you under my "rod of iron" He gives me when He comes, so you can learn not to profane His Holy Writ.
 

Eternally Grateful

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As usual I am late to the party, Here is my take

Great tribulation - Time of Jacobs trouble.

Jeremiah 30:7
Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.

Matthew 24:21
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mark 13:19
19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be

1. In all three we are told it will be like never before. Nothing has ever been like it. from the beginning of creation until the end of time

if we look at History. We find the two world wars of the early 1900's were the greatest the world has ever seen. So when we look to guide us as to if we are going through this tribulation or not, as in history, this is the standard for the greatest to date. (its unfathomable that something could be greater than both of those wars where millions of people dead and cities were leveled to the ground.

2. We are informed in the Matt and Mark mentions, that if something was not done, No flesh would survive.

Matthew 24:22
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Mark 13:14
20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Here we see, the time is so great. that extinction (no flesh) is possible if God does not put an end to it.

3. this time is put to an end when Christ himself returns. Marking not only the end of the tribulation. but the end of the time of the gentiles (dan 2, Dan 7, Matt 24, Mark 13, etc etc...)
 

Taken

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So if a few pretrib scholars change their mind then it disproves the rest of them? Rubbish.

We are well aware, the public at large for centuries, were without knowledge to read and write nor commonly had access to books, texts, material To read, and wholly were dependent on men to teach them.

So we have Philosophers from ancient days, having no adherence to God, but sitting about Thinking, taking handouts for their livelihood, deciding in their Minds, what they have concluded IS GOD, Their NAMES exalted... (and sadly the forefront “practice” in every public school) and (forefront “teaching” in every University)....
AND
We have historical men who could read, who did have access to Scripture, who did study, and wrote their findings.....Their names Tagged to their writings. AND? (Their names Tagged to things they did not say or write.)
~ Regardless...So some men discovered new knowledge and shared?

~ Seriously, doesn’t EVERY man who can read, who own their very own Bible, who reads, who study’s.....Expand more and more on his Knowledge ?
~ Seriously, are they stymied by a previous scholars study that ended with that mans physical death? No.

Personally I had never heard of ... (Darby, Scofield, Smith, Calvin, blah, blah)
Before joining this forum. I couldn’t say what they read, studied, believed, taught.....really don’t much care If I have have similar beliefs, or totally different beliefs. What I do know, IS what I read, study, trust, IS what IS IN Scripture. What I do know, IS WHAT WAS, SHALL BE....
The Trustworthy Master Teacher has Always been the Lord God Himself...

I fully expect to have SOME LIKE Understanding of others, and SOME UNLIKE Understanding of others. At most, I know WHY I believe what I do, and it never hinges on....”Because some philosopher man or some famous man said so!”
 
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Davy

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As usual I am late to the party, Here is my take

Great tribulation - Time of Jacobs trouble.

Jeremiah 30:7
Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.

Matthew 24:21
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mark 13:19
19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be

1. In all three we are told it will be like never before. Nothing has ever been like it. from the beginning of creation until the end of time

if we look at History. We find the two world wars of the early 1900's were the greatest the world has ever seen. So when we look to guide us as to if we are going through this tribulation or not, as in history, this is the standard for the greatest to date. (its unfathomable that something could be greater than both of those wars where millions of people dead and cities were leveled to the ground.

2. We are informed in the Matt and Mark mentions, that if something was not done, No flesh would survive.

Matthew 24:22
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Mark 13:14
20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Here we see, the time is so great. that extinction (no flesh) is possible if God does not put an end to it.

3. this time is put to an end when Christ himself returns. Marking not only the end of the tribulation. but the end of the time of the gentiles (dan 2, Dan 7, Matt 24, Mark 13, etc etc...)


By that then, it means you believe the main event of 'tribulation' will be the killing of flesh. How do you explain the following then...

Rev 9:3-6
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
KJV

Because of that Scripture, and a few others linked to it, I don't believe the coming tribulation is going to be an all out flesh slugfest.

I believe Lord Jesus was pointing more towards the spiritual idea of deception with that no flesh saved.

Yet I do... believe that Christ's enemies today do... plan to wipe Christ's faithful off the face of the earth. The Georgia Guide-stones kind of point to that, about the reduction of the earth's population, a plan by radical environmentalists which are in reality hidden devils.
 

Taken

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YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT I SAY, BECAUSE YOUR EARS AND EYES ARE CLOSED TO GOD'S WORD. IF YOU COULD UNDERSTAND GOD'S WORD, YOU WOULD HEAR ME PROCLAIMING IT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

And your above words you try to put in my mouth which I did not say, is you bearing false witness again!

Oh good grief......Making a false claim is Laughable.

Your words are not mysterious. Your own words are clearly written. Your own words were in your own comment. Your own words were repeated precisely. YOU OWN them!

Truth STINGS when you Twist what Scripture ACTUALLY SAYS.
A Righteous man will correct his errors.
An “other man” will make deflect with a False Accusation.

No, I did not put words in your mouth......I quoted your exact words.
I quoted Scriptures exact words.....Your words did NOT line up with Scripture!

“Bearing false witness” YOU SAY....”again”....YOU SAY.....your deflective accusation has NO EVIDENCE, NO relevance, No standing.

Embarrassed for you!
 

Eternally Grateful

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By that then, it means you believe the main event of 'tribulation' will be the killing of flesh. How do you explain the following then...

Rev 9:3-6
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
KJV

Because of that Scripture, and a few others linked to it, I don't believe the coming tribulation is going to be an all out flesh slugfest.

I believe Lord Jesus was pointing more towards the spiritual idea of deception with that no flesh saved.

Yet I do... believe that Christ's enemies today do... plan to wipe Christ's faithful off the face of the earth. The Georgia Guide-stones kind of point to that, about the reduction of the earth's population, a plan by radical environmentalists which are in reality hidden devils.
The no flesh surviving bit was about the end.

As for the spiritual deception. I disagree. Jesus returns for the sake of the elect. So that they would survive and enter the kingdom with him.

I personally believe an all out nuclear attack or something like it or far worse that that is launched in the last day, and that is when CHrist sayd thate enough. and returns.. SO much flesh will die the birds will feast on flesh for i believe a year?
 

Taken

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I am against... the FALSE Pre-tribulational Rapture theory because... GOD is against it! You obviously haven't read Ezekiel 13 where He said He is against those who teach His people to fly to save their souls!

LOL....who said anything whatsoever, about MEN SAVING THEIR OWN SOULS? Uh......NO ONE!!

Are YOU completely without ears to hear? Men do not save their own souls.
Salvation of a mans soul is BY Gods Works!
 

Davy

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The no flesh surviving bit was about the end.

As for the spiritual deception. I disagree. Jesus returns for the sake of the elect. So that they would survive and enter the kingdom with him.

I personally believe an all out nuclear attack or something like it or far worse that that is launched in the last day, and that is when CHrist sayd thate enough. and returns.. SO much flesh will die the birds will feast on flesh for i believe a year?

I can't agree with all that. Spiritual deception is what Lord Jesus showed is the main point for the coming tribulation (Matthew 24:4). It's going to be about Satan on earth playing God, literally (Revelation 13:4-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4). How would he look if he went around killing everyone? No one would believe he could be God by doing that. Instead, he is going to be in Jerusalem working all power and lying wonders, great signs and wonders and miracles. Furthermore, Revelation 13 asks who can make war with the beast? And Jesus showed in Matthew 24:6 that all wars will have stopped at the 'end' (for the end is not yet). So that shows the tribulation isn't going to be about war either.

God's "two witnesses" are going to be here during that time too, issuing out plagues upon the beast and his kingdom, tormenting God's enemies upon the earth. It will only be when Satan ascends out of his bottomless pit to kill God's "two witnesses" in Jerusalem that 'some' will begin to question who he really is (Revelation 11). The deceived who will believe he is God will be throwing parties and giving each other gifts once he kills God's two witnesses there in Jerusalem and leaves their dead bodies laying in the plaza.

If nukes are involved, I believe it would only happen just prior... to the great tribulation, because like God's Word shows, the "great tribulation" will be more about deception to the coming false-Messiah than anything else. And some dramatic event just prior to his arrival would magnetize his coming role as God, and over all that is called God, or that is worshiped (2 Thessalonians 2:4).

Something is going to happen towards the end of the tribulation though that will set Satan off to want to totally destroy Israel and all of God's people by bringing the armies out of the northern country against Israel in prep for the Armageddon event of Revelation 16 and Zephaniah 3:8. That... is when Lord Jesus will step in with God's consuming fire (2 Peter 3:10; Zechariah 14).
 

Eternally Grateful

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I can't agree with all that. Spiritual deception is what Lord Jesus showed is the main point for the coming tribulation (Matthew 24:4). It's going to be about Satan on earth playing God, literally (Revelation 13:4-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4). How would he look if he went around killing everyone? No one would believe he could be God by doing that. Instead, he is going to be in Jerusalem working all power and lying wonders, great signs and wonders and miracles. Furthermore, Revelation 13 asks who can make war with the beast? And Jesus showed in Matthew 24:6 that all wars will have stopped at the 'end' (for the end is not yet). So that shows the tribulation isn't going to be about war either.

God's "two witnesses" are going to be here during that time too, issuing out plagues upon the beast and his kingdom, tormenting God's enemies upon the earth. It will only be when Satan ascends out of his bottomless pit to kill God's "two witnesses" in Jerusalem that 'some' will begin to question who he really is (Revelation 11). The deceived who will believe he is God will be throwing parties and giving each other gifts once he kills God's two witnesses there in Jerusalem and leaves their dead bodies laying in the plaza.

If nukes are involved, I believe it would only happen just prior... to the great tribulation, because like God's Word shows, the "great tribulation" will be more about deception to the coming false-Messiah than anything else. And some dramatic event just prior to his arrival would magnetize his coming role as God, and over all that is called God, or that is worshiped (2 Thessalonians 2:4).

Something is going to happen towards the end of the tribulation though that will set Satan off to want to totally destroy Israel and all of God's people by bringing the armies out of the northern country against Israel in prep for the Armageddon event of Revelation 16 and Zephaniah 3:8. That... is when Lord Jesus will step in with God's consuming fire (2 Peter 3:10; Zechariah 14).
I cant agree with this

No flesh = No flesh

It will get so bad if Jesus does not stop it. no flesh would survive.

That is the point he is trying to make.

Eternal or spiritual salvation is not in question here. He would have used a different term.

We do not spiritualise prophecy to fit our belief system.
 

Davy

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I cant agree with this

No flesh = No flesh

It will get so bad if Jesus does not stop it. no flesh would survive.

That is the point he is trying to make.

Eternal or spiritual salvation is not in question here. He would have used a different term.

We do not spiritualise prophecy to fit our belief system.

I'm not spiritualizing it. If your interpretation were true, it would mean there wouldn't be any of His Church left on earth for Him to gather up to Him when He does return. And that is exactly what those on the false Pre-trib Rapture believe, which is why they would rather believe He comes to take them out before all that happens.
 

Eternally Grateful

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I'm not spiritualizing it. If your interpretation were true, it would mean there wouldn't be any of His Church left on earth for Him to gather up to Him when He does return. And that is exactly what those on the false Pre-trib Rapture believe, which is why they would rather believe He comes to take them out before all that happens.
Matt 24: 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Mark 13: 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Actually you just proved my point for me. The reason he shortened the time and put an end to it, is because if he did not there would be no one left alive to ENTER THE KINGDOM when he came to his kingdom.

You also just proved post trib is false. Because if that were true. No one would be left alive to enter the kingdom period with Christ.

Thank you.