The meaning of faith does not change from year to year, or from millennium to millennium. And "church" has nothing to do with it either. Each person must exercise faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption. Salvation (justification) is BY GRACE through faith. What this means is that when one believes God and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, God justifies that person, and imputes the righteousness of Christ to him or her. This is solely by the grace of God, apart from any works, or deeds, or merit. And God can be just, and the justifier of the ungodly, since Christ paid the full penalty for the sins of the whole world, and there is also remission of sins through His blood.
Salvation is by Grace through Faith.
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33 Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.” Matthew 13:33
Orthopraxy now is rarely what we see displayed in the book of acts or in the Epistles, and Orthopraxy reflects orthodoxy, or accepted doctrine (which obviously varies broadly within the confessing "church."
The "churches" of today all have one thing in common. They are tripping over a stumbling block. Maybe it was laid by Christ. "I lay in Zion a stumbling stone that causes men to stumble."
The stumbling stone I'm referring to is all the churches stand on the "mistranslated" words believe, believer, and believing to teach what NT Faith and faithing is. That's the wide path Jesus warns us about.
I've spent 30 years trying to persuade called out ones off that path to no avail. We definitely could be living in the day Jesus also warns us about.
There will come a time when man will not endure sound doctrine.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
God commanded man to believe or perish (John 3:16) to repent or perish (Luke 13:3) and man either chooses to obey what God says and be saved or choose to disobey and be lost. There is no paradox here in what man chooses. God provides a pathway to salvation thru belief-repentance and man simply chooses to take that pathway or not. God does not unconditionally force salvation upon certain men randomly nor can man apart from God save himself for it takes both God instructing men how to be saved and man following those instructions....this is synergy taking place between God and man, not a made up 'paradox'.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
You still have not answered or explained why James used that same greek word in reference to people who have no works, and demons who rejected God..
Pisteuo takes work (not works) and effort, that's the true salvation response that results in receiving the Spirit of Christ.
Believing is only believing and can never result in receiving the Spirit of Christ.
The people have performed work and effort, it's because you are standing on the mistranslated word believe. The English even fashions the sentence structure to support the mistranslation.
The demons are not and shouldn't be compared to man as in the image of God. The demons have surrendered their lives to God, but their response to that surrender is moving away from Him. It should have been translated apisteuo, the reverse action.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
so your saying James actually said something like this?
" You do not believe, you do well. for even demons do not believe yet tremble"
Can you please explain how that makes any sense in context?
Honestly, I admit I don't think about satan and his demons much at all. But lets look at the problems with using pisteuo, a continually surrendered life, which is communicated solely to us and James adding demons to the fold.
Pisteuo or what should have been translated faithing in the English is based upon one very important fact. And that's faithing or what the english says "believe" must be based on something "unseen". Faith or the application of faith is pisteuo. Pisteuo defined is , "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender." Pisteuo, as it relates to the living God, we are surrendering our lives continually to someone we have never seen. We are living a life inspired by this continual surrender, to someone we have never seen. Now as soon as this unseen object of Faith and faithing becomes seen, it's no longer Faith anymore but "fact". Faith, faithing (believing) can't be based on something we have seen.
So now lets insert the demons into this truth.
Are the demons fulfilling pisteuo as it relates to the living God correctly, by the same parameters as we do No! Why? Because "they have seen God" in all His glory at one point in time. So because they have seen God, God is a fact to them and cannot be used as an act of Faith and faithing, which mandates must be something unseen. In addition, they have no God given life of their own to surrender.
So for James to use the word Pisteuo as a possibility in their relationship with God is error , at least in our temporal framework of understanding.
Here is how this passage should be communicated.
James 2: 19 "You're continually surrendering your lives in that their is one God. You do well, Even the demons are continually surrendering themselves to God _ and tremble.
All I've done is replace the mistranslated word "believe" with the correct definition of Pisteuo. And as stated above, i don't agree with James that the demons can faithe (believe) in God.
Compare to the verse with the mistranslated word "believe".
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
Important note: There are many passages of scripture that are uncertain to us. But the rule for interpreting Gods Word is to never take an uncertain passage and knock down the mountain of scripture we are certain about. Instead, we try to fit the uncertain passage into the mountain of passages we are sure of.
Pistis is where we get our English word Faith, a noun and it's used 245 times in the NT.
Pisteuo the corresponding verb to the noun pistis is used 248 times in the NT. Pisteuo is the application of our object of Faith and defined as it relates to the living God is "A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender."
In 99% of the passages where pisteuo is used, i could and should remove the mistranslated words "believe, believer, believing, and just replace them with the correct definition given from the Greek dictionary. It would communicate the message perfectly.
All of this is solely responsible to the fact the English language doesn't have a word in it's vocabulary to translate the most important word in scripture, Pisteuo. The English has no corresponding verb to our noun "Faith" like the Greek does for its noun "Pistis". The mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing are corresponding verbs to the noun "Belief" not the noun "Faith". The English needed to have the words faithe, faither, and faithing available to the translators, but they weren't.
this is the best answer i have for you EG.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
what the demons did or did not do is not part of our conversation.
Our conversation is about what James said
The fact remains.
In James 2. James used the word "pisteueis" (verb, present, active, indicative, second person singular) when he said, if you believe you do well
James also said that the demons "pisteuousi" (verb, present active indicitive, third person plural)
if you notice, both come from the root word Pistueo
the only difference in spelling is based on the fact one is second person singular the other is third person plural
so your whole argument that pistueo is ONLY spoken of those who are completely surrendered is false. Because right here, James used the exact word your arguing to people who have NOT surrendered, who have a belief that there is one God. But they have not completely surrendered.
So you're disagreement isn't with me but the Greek scholars who provided the exact definition in the Vines.
And as I explained above, In the English "belief" is a noun, "believe" is the corresponding verb to the noun "belief". THE WORDS BELIEF AND BELIEVE ARE NOT IN THE GREEK VOCABULARY.
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Your disagreement is with the authors who wrote the Bible
IF your interpretation is correct. James screwed up.
By the way. You don’t faith someone. That is not the way you interpret the word pistueo.
You believe something
They did believe in one god.
They did not TRUST in that one God
Desire Of All Nations
Well-Known Member
The part that makes this theology laughable is the fact that Rom. 5:10 and Hebrews teaches that Christ's blood reconciles a person to God. What the Bible clearly doesn't teach is that Christ's blood saves anyone. It doesn't have the power to do that any more than the animal sacrifices could.
I can already see people screaming "blasphemy!" at this, but Rom. 5:10 clearly says a Christian is saved by Jesus' life, not His blood. It just goes to show how little "Christians" actually want to understand, even when the knowledge is gift-wrapped to them in crystal clear language. Superficial belief in that sacrifice will not save anybody by itself, as Christ Himself stated in no uncertain terms that it is the people who do the Father's will that will be saved(Matt. 7:21).
As James illustrated in his epistle using Abraham's example, saving faith leads to obedience. It doesn't stop at possessing an intellectual acceptance of God's existence. Adam and Eve knew God existed, and it still didn't stop them from disobeying Him because their faith didn't lead to acting on what they were commanded to do.
Most in todays church world believes that "through faith" means that mans act of faith or believing is the condition man must meet in order to get saved. However thats grave error.
Faith here is along with salvation by Grace the gift of God. God gives Faith to them He saves by Grace so they will believe that they are saved 100% by what Christ has done for the chosen of God.
This post promotes salvation by works, conditioned on man.
The only thing “ laughable” here is your Biblical ignorance.....Christ’s Life Saves Nobody.....Jesus had to die—- “ Without the shedding of blood, there is NO sacrifice for sins”..... Jesus was the “ One Time Sacrifice” for the sins of the World.....
Doing “ The Will Of The Father” is to “ BELIEVE” on the One that He sent.....simple as that....Who on Earth in here is making the claim that intellectual assent to the existence of God is the Recipe for Salvation? It appears that you pulled that one straight out if your A**
There is nothing Magical about the Blood .....it ,in itself does not save. It is what the Blood *Stands* for—— an incredibly torturous Sacrifice that was not remotely deserved and did NOT have to be performed......it was a Sacrifice motivated By The Love , The Mercy and The Grace Of God , Performed on behalf of Lost Sinners who could do Nothing to Save themselves....
Adam and Eve were disobedient to God.......indeed, they sinned. Just like us. They were estranged from God, but God , in His Mercy , provided forgiveness for them and gave them a “way back” to Him......They were Saved in the end because of their Faith in the Shed Blood Of an innocent ( God sacrificed an innocent animal for them by shedding its blood) Does That illustration ring a bell ? The “Shed Blood” Of an Innocent one ? No magic in the Blood, but had that Blood NOT been Shed we would ALL be headed for a well- deserved Hell.......The Shed Blood represents the Love of God—— in the end, THAT is what Truly Saves....
You can only be saved by Jesus Christ by faith in him.
Yes that is the correct way to interpret pisteuo. Not using the Noun "Faith" as you did, but using the verb "Faithe" the word the translators should have had available to translate pisteuo. True NT Faith or the application of said Faith, faithing "is" we faithe into Jesus Christ.
No , my disagreement is with the "translators of the original transcripts." And, with the called out ones who have and are stumbling over this stumbling stone.
People will just see this information one time and be held accountable before Christ. How many times has this truth been show to you, yet you still reject it. How great will your accountability be? When He says, " show me your Faith (pistis) and how you applied it (Pisteuo) . You will reply, " i believed in everything you did, said, and promised." He will say, but i don't know you, you never started the relationship with me by a continually surrendered life, living a life inspired by such surrender." You will say, "but i never knew that." He will say, "i sent that truth to you and you rejected it."
I'm rooting for you and everyone here EG.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I did not reject truth
I reject your truth.
James still contradicts you point. You continue to fail to admit it. So there is not more we can say. will agree to disagree
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Obedience to God's will is never defined in the Bible as a work that merits salvation but obedience is a precondition God put upon His free gift and meeting the prerequisite on a free gift never earns salvation. Obedience in doing God's will is what the Bible calls doing righteousness while lack of obedience is call unrighteousness. Until some accept this common ever day fact/truth, they will never have an accurate understanding of salvation.
There was obedience in washing God put upon His free gift of healing for Naaman (2 Kings 5:10) and the blind man (John 9:7). These men's obedient work in washing/dipping did not earn the free gift of healing but they simply met the precondition God put upon His free gift.
Yet I do not see the faith onlyist refer to these incidents as "work based" healings for obviously nothing was merited by the obedience.
But these same faith onlyist make the spurious claim of "work based" salvation when the obedience done to receive the free gift of salvation does not merit God's free gift no more than the obedience done by Naaman or the blind man merited the free gift they both received. There is an inconsistent, lack of logic involved with Calvinism.
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