Understanding the Trinity.

Scott Downey · Jan 21, 2022

If Christ is not raised then your faith is in vain. The definition of bodily resurrection meant for a spirit to be put back into a living body of someone who had died. Christ risen means His resurrected body is flesh and bone, not something like a ghost.

Romans 1
New King James Version
Greeting
1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15
12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.

17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

Scott Downey · Jan 21, 2022

Curtis said:
Once again, in the Old Testament they wrote YHWH as LORD, in all caps, but in the New Testament where it writes ‘Lord’ without using all caps, it is the Greek word KURiOS which means master, not Yahweh.

Therefore when Romans 10 says you must believe in the Lord Jesus, that is not demanding you believe he is God Jesus.

When Believing in Jesus Can’t Save You.

Do I have to believe that Jesus is God to be saved?

Can A Christian Believe That Jesus Is Not God?

Scott Downey · Jan 21, 2022

This is really good teaching here, no you cannot believe in Christ unless you believe who He IS.
If you believe Christ is not God, then he is nothing but a false Christ that can not save you.
Can A Christian Believe That Jesus Is Not God?

David H. · Jan 21, 2022

Scott Downey said:
JW's don't believe God raised Christ from the dead, true that disqualifies them for salvation.
They also do not Believe Jesus Christ is LORD, also disqualifies them.

All the NT verses describing Christ as Lord acknowledge He is God the Son, they don't believe that. The believe Christ was a created person. They do not worship Christ.
This is not a concept being added to the scriptures.

The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside the still waters. He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness For His name’s sake. ...

The deity of Christ is revealed to us by the Holy Ghost after we are saved, thus it is a test of the Spirit in us, that we have received the right Spirit, it is not what saves us initially but is proof we are saved. I believe this is what @Curtis is trying to say here

Scott Downey · Jan 21, 2022

David H. said:
The deity of Christ is revealed to us by the Holy Ghost after we are saved, thus it is a test of the Spirit in us, that we have received the right Spirit, it is not what saves us initially but is proof we are saved. I believe this is what @Curtis is trying to say here

Actually after we are regenerated, then we know who He is. Prior to that we dont know for certain as there is no internal teaching by God to our spirit of who He is. We are dead in trespasses and sins, then He makes us alive who were dead for the only reason of His grace, mercy, love towards us, not based on anything we say, think, or do. Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2, the dead there are following the devil, and at enmity with God, until God regenerates (born again) our spirit

Basically, salvation is first the regeneration, (born of the Spirit), then our believing in our heart and confessing Him, then comes the sealing for salvation.

tigger 2 · Jan 21, 2022

Scott Downey said:
You may like this in confirming the JW are not saved
Worship Jesus Worship God Deity of Christ

Jesus and the Father are both equally worshiped at the same time in Heaven by all of his creation:
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped. (Rev 5:11-14)

Hence, Jesus is worshiped in the presence of the Father and in the same way that the Father is worshiped. Not only that, but it also says every creature is praising the Father and Jesus, thereby excluding Jesus from the created class, since he can't be praising himself! That means Jesus is not Michael the archangel, as some were wrongly taught.

etc...

.................................................
Worship

The Hebrew word most often translated “worship” is shachah, and it is usually rendered as proskuneo in the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament. Unger and White say of this word: “Shachah ... ‘to worship, prostrate oneself, bow down.’” And,

“The act of bowing down in homage done before a superior [in rank] or a ruler. Thus David ‘bowed’ himself [shachah] before Saul (1 Sam. 24:8). Sometimes it is a social or economic superior to whom one bows, as when Ruth ‘bowed’ [shachah] to the ground before Boaz (Ruth 2:10).” - Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament, 1980, Thomas Nelson Publ., p. 482.

Is. 45:14. Here God, speaking to his faithful human followers of the last days, says:

“and they [the rest of surviving mankind] ... shall fall down [shachah - ‘worship’] unto thee, they shall make supplication [palal - ‘pray’: see The Jerusalem Bible and AT] unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else.” - KJV, ASV. - cf. Is. 49:23.

1 Chron. 29:20 tells us,

“And all the assembly blessed Jehovah, the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads and worshiped [shachah] Jehovah and the king [David].” - ASV, KJV - cf. Septuagint (proskuneo).

The highest position of authority, of course, is that occupied by God (the Father, Jehovah, who alone is Most High - Ps. 83:18 - and who alone deserves worship [in the most high sense of that word].

Scott Downey · Jan 21, 2022

Romans 8:6-8
New King James Version
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Either your in the flesh and following the lusts of the flesh and the satanic prince of the power of the air, or you are of the Spirit of God.
Of the Spirt, or of God means to be born again, and it is the first change from Him for your salvation in that he changes who you are fundamentally, before that you have enmity, (hatred and anger) against God and Christ. After your regeneration, the enmity between you is gone, and you can believe in Christ, you are free of Satan's mind control over you. He has shone His light into your heart.

2 Corinthians 4

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Wrangler · Jan 21, 2022

Scott Downey said:
Romans 8:6-8
New King James Version
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

And this relates to the thread topic how?

Keiw · Jan 21, 2022

Curtis said:
You have no clue what being raised in the spirit means - a spirit body isn’t an invisible ghost, but has flesh and bone:

Scripture says that flesh and blood bodies can’t inherit the kingdom:

1Co 15:50 Now this is what I am saying, brothers and sisters: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

But Jesus rose in a body of flesh and bone - no blood - and Paul makes clear that we will be like Him.

(In fact the apostles thought Jesus’ risen body was a spirit, but He set them straight):

Luk 24:36 While they were saying these things, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

Luk 24:37 But they were startled and terrified, thinking they saw a ghost.

Luk 24:38 Then he said to them, “Why are you frightened, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?

Luk 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet; it’s me! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones like you see I have.”

His body is now flesh and bone, not flesh and BLOOD.

You claim Jesus is now a ghost - the apostles ignorantly thought He was a ghost, but zjesus corrected them, but you won’t believe Jesus’ own words - you believe the watchtower over Jesus!

And Paul makes clear we shall be like the resurrected Jesus is now:

1Jn 3:2 Dear friends, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever it is revealed we will be like him

Philippians 3:21 (NET)

21 who will transform these humble bodies of ours into the likeness of his glorious body by means of that power by which he is able to subject all things to himself.

1 Corinthians 15 thus is NOT saying that our new bodies will be nebulous and non-corporeal spirits, like a ghost - but that our new bodies won’t be mortal bodies that need to breathe, or that needs blood in them.

1. Jesus did not rise as a ghostly spirit, but has a body of flesh and bone.

2. Our resurrected bodies will be just like His - flesh and bone.

Jesus wasnt in his first body the first day they saw him, They did not recognize him. And being the son of God he can transform into any mortal he wants to. Flesh cannot walk through a locked door. Jesus did.

David H. · Jan 21, 2022

Scott Downey said:
Actually after we are regenerated, then we know who He is. Prior to that we dont know for certain as there is no internal teaching by God to our spirit of who He is. We are dead in trespasses and sins, then He makes us alive who were dead for the only reason of His grace, mercy, love towards us, not based on anything we say, think, or do. Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2, the dead there are following the devil, and at enmity with God, until God regenerates (born again) our spirit

Basically, salvation is first the regeneration, (born of the Spirit), then our believing in our heart and confessing Him, then comes the sealing for salvation.

Well said. This is why assurance is such a big problem for J.W.'s

Scott Downey · Jan 21, 2022

Keiw said:
Jesus wasnt in his first body the first day they saw him, They did not recognize him. And being the son of God he can transform into any mortal he wants to. Flesh cannot walk through a locked door. Jesus did.

Christ has been glorified, can appear and disappear at will with a flesh and bone body.
Apparently can do a lot more than a flesh and blood natural body, and the body He has when He appears, Christ calls it flesh and bones, so tangible, not a spirit ghost, etc...
Luke 24:36-40
New King James Version
Jesus Appears to His Disciples
36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.

Ephesians 5:29-32
New King James Version
29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.
30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.

31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church

Someday, saved people will have a body like Christ has now.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Scott Downey · Jan 21, 2022

Both the wicked and the just shall be resurrected, everyone will again have some kind of body, for the saved it will be a glorified body, for the damned, something else, unpleasant, not glorified.
1 Corinthians 15
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Philippians 3:20-21
New King James Version
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

Scott Downey · Jan 21, 2022

Christ is the resurrection and the life, all are resurrected, the unjust (the evil) and the just ( the saved) into a body of some kind.
John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

John 5
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Hebrews 6:1-3
New King James Version
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

Acts 24:14-16
New King James Version
14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.
15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. 16 This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.

tigger 2 · Jan 21, 2022

Scott Downey said:
Revelation 1, Jesus is the First and the Last, or Alpha and Omega, beginning and ending

12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. 19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this. 20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

AND From the start of the chapter 1 this

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

..............................................

Rev 1:4-7 is John speaking to the churches. He notes that the men to whom he is writing will be serving his [Jesus’] God and Father. John stops his own words at the end of verse 7. Then God speaks:

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. - NRSV and RSV

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who [f]is to come, the Almighty.”- NASB.

Notice how the RSV has quotation marks around “I am the Alpha and the Omega” only, whereas NASB understands God’s words to be “I am the Alpha and the Omega who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Either is possible and up to the translator to decide.

In either case, God’s words cease at the end of verse 8. Verse 7 is not necessarily to be understood as being said by the person who spoke in verse 8 as has been done above.

Many other modern trinitarian Bibles (those using quotation marks) show their understanding that verses 7 and 8 are not to be run together (as do certain trinity apologists). God speaks only in verse 8.

Keiw · Jan 21, 2022

Scott Downey said:
Christ has been glorified, can appear and disappear at will with a flesh and bone body.
Apparently can do a lot more than a flesh and blood natural body, and the body He has when He appears, Christ calls it flesh and bones, so tangible, not a spirit ghost, etc...
Luke 24:36-40
New King James Version
Jesus Appears to His Disciples
36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.

Ephesians 5:29-32
New King James Version
29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.
30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.

31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church

Someday, saved people will have a body like Christ has now.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

He was still raised a spirit as Peter said. Only 144,000 are bought from the earth-Rev 14:3)--The rest are promised the EARTH-Matthew 5:5--Psalm 37:29

tigger 2 · Jan 21, 2022

Scott Downey in #322 above:

Jesus Testifies to the Churches
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

….…………………………………………………

NASB, Rev. 22:

10 And he [the angel] said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11 Let the one who does wrong still do wrong, and the one who is filthy still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous still practice righteousness, and the one who is holy still keep himself holy.” [angel speaking]

12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to reward each one as his work [h]deserves. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” [God speaking]

14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. [John’s words]

16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you of these things [i]for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” [Jesus’ words]

Again, running the words of different individuals together does not prove they must be understood as all the same person

Compare NRSV, RSV, ESV, NAB, NEB, REB, etc.

Scott Downey · Jan 21, 2022

Keiw said:
He was still raised a spirit as Peter said. Only 144,000 are bought from the earth-Rev 14:3)--The rest are promised the EARTH-Matthew 5:5--Psalm 37:29

The idea there is Christ was raised by the spirit, not as a spirit.
God raised up Christ by His Spirit. There are some versions say in the spirit, by the spirit, but none say as a spirit.
Really the context is He whom Christ raised up. And Christ was raised by the Father.
1 Peter 3:18
NKJV
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

That verse in many English versions
1 Peter 3:18 - Bible Gateway

Scott Downey · Jan 21, 2022

More context, you see the meaning here

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Keiw · Jan 21, 2022

Scott Downey said:
The idea there is Christ was raised by the spirit, not as a spirit.
God raised up Christ by His Spirit. There are some versions say in the spirit, by the spirit, but none say as a spirit.
Really the context is He whom Christ raised up. And Christ was raised by the Father.
1 Peter 3:18
NKJV
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

That verse in many English versions
1 Peter 3:18 - Bible Gateway

Trinity translations are twisted. They teach 2 different Gods. Paul tells truth-1Cor 8:6--There is one God to all the Father. He did not say-Father, son and holy spirit. He taught truth. Proving trinity translations are error filled.

Keiw · Jan 21, 2022

Scott Downey said:
More context, you see the meaning here

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Jesus sat at the right hand of God-- Can you understand english? He did not sit at his own right hand. There is only one God and Jesus was sitting by the One God. If he were God they were already in subject to him, proving he is not God.

BARNEY BRIGHT · Jan 21, 2022

David H. said:
You Know Barney, I once had a JW come to my door and I refused to let her use the New World translation and gave her a KJV to defend herself with.... She left speechless, and they never came to my door again.

I say this not to brag, But to show you that the Spirit is not there, and once the watchtower writings are taken away, many cannot defend themselves and think on their own two feet.

This story doesn't mean anything to me. I don't let you or anyone decide for me which Bible I'm going to use. You want to disagree with the choice of the Bible Jehovah's Witnesses as a group use to study with, so be it, that's your right, but I don't believe you though when you say such things about Jehovah's Witnesses not using a king James Bible when out in service preaching about the Messianic kingdom
because you seem to be trying to put out there that Jehovah's Witnesses don't use the king James Bible, but the problem with that thinking is that anyone who truly knows about the Jehovah's Witnesses know they will use many different Bibles to make there point from the scriptures which includes the king James Bible. We just won't allow you to teach us that the only Bible we can use is the King James Bible.

Understanding the Trinity.

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