What is Predetermined?

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Renniks

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You refuse to show how, because you refuse the teaching you don't personally like.
I'll show you exactly what you do. You talk about being blameless without acknowledging that it's only Jesus making us righteous and blameless.

" be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith."

Keeping the law, whichever law you choose, will never make you blameless because you will always fail.

You don't understand grace. You cannot be holy by obedience. You can only rely on Jesus for your Holiness.

"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."
 

Renniks

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You say pride, but you show no Scripture for it, and so it is just your own mind.
"How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
For you have said in your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;

I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'
Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
 

robert derrick

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God has predetermined that sinners shall not stand in the congregation of the righteous, nor stand boldly in the judgment.

Only the godly, righteous, and blameless saints shall be glad at His appearing. the rest are predetermined and prophesied to be found naked by the Lord's appearing as a thief in the night.

Sinners are souls unwashed from this sins in the blood of the Lamb.

They go on still in unrepented sins and trespasses, so that they are thus judged as unwashed sinners.

Those who repent of their sins are washed clean from all unrighteousness.

Hypocrites are not just the wretched double minded, who seek deliverance from their abiding sins, but hypocrites are OSAS willful sinners and trespassers, who count the blood of the Lamb as that of a bull or a goat, only covering their sins as in the OT, so their hypocrite souls won't be judged for them.

They do this by the high pride and lowly show of humility, that they are predetermined, selected, and called before ever the world was, and so they have no responsibility for their unconditional salvation nor their souls nor their lives of ongoing ungodliness and unrighteousness unto death.
 

robert derrick

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The pride of the predeterminators is that they suppose themselves to have been personally chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world.

They are so special, because their names were in glory before God ever created the heaven and the earth.

They were right there with God and the Word in the beginning.

Unlike the rest of the loser schlub souls that God did not Personally choose for Himself.

And so, they are not judged for being as ungodly and depraved as other unchosen sinners of the world, because they are so, so, so special before time ever even began.

Humbly so, of course.

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind.

They worship their own angelic names before the angels themselves were even created. They take great pride in being the prechosen angels from everlasting.

The only reason they honor the name of Jesus, is because their own honored names were prechosen with Him in the beginning of all things.
 

Lifelong_sinner

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Robert derrick wont ever answer the question of does he continue to sin. A humble person would say yes, robert derrick thinks you repent once and then you never ever sin again. That is completely wrong.
 

robert derrick

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"How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
For you have said in your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;

I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'
Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
Finally. Scripture.

No pride mentioned.

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Iniquity: known sin was the error of Lucifer. He declared he would disobey the Lord.

By disobeying Him, he thought to be a god himself to rise up in himself.

Willing to try God by disobeying Him in any thing is the first sin of Lucifer, and the first sin of Adam.

God cast Lucifer down, so soon as He saw the iniquity in him, and God allowed Adam to do so in transgression, before judging his soul according to His commandment.

The pride of life is number three in the lusts that produce sin and transgression:

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

It is not by coincidence, that those demanding all Christians every where be ongoing sinners such as themselves, then go on to falsely accuse them that refuse to as 'proud', and not willing to be really 'humble' like themselves.

Disgusting phony rubbish.

OSAS can stay proud of their groveling in depravity, but the saint will remain thankful for His necessary grace to do His righteousness even as He is righteous.
 
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robert derrick

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Are you sinless? Answer the question please.
I still have sin in my mortal body, which I am responsible to reign over and not allow to enter as lust into my own heart, which Jesus has purified by His Spirit in answer to my prayers.

I have sin in my mortal corrupted body, not in my soul, nor lust in my heart.

Now, are you an ungodly sinner?
 

robert derrick

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Robert derrick wont ever answer the question of does he continue to sin. A humble person would say yes, robert derrick thinks you repent once and then you never ever sin again. That is completely wrong.
What would a self-confessed unsaved ungodly sinner, without the renewed mind of Christ, know of the Spirit of truth and Scripture?

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth.

A humble person would say yes,

And a hypocrite would act so mumble in gladly saying so.

Proof again that the disgusting hypocrisy of OSAS is a feigned humility while loudly proclaiming what depraved ungodly sinners they are.

If declaring how corrupt we are is the measure for obtaining eternal salvation, then you would already be resurrected from the dead.
 

ScottA

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So...again, which is it? Do you actually agree with this biblical explanation and the reality of what is only explained as predestination, as to children, just as He has...or not?

And so you do not address my main objection, which is:

...But God also permits one not to mature. But we are rather, to "Press on."

My main objection to your OSAS teaching of unconditionally secured salvation is saying that the first principle of repenting from dead works, is allowed to be skipped by them who do not do so, and so God accepts some remaining in perpetual babyhood during this life.

Scripture reference to children and little children is not that of understanding and righteous living, but of affection.

The least of the little children in Christ Jesus are answering the high calling of God to be saints, which does not begin until obeying the command to repent of all sins.

Once such dead works are repented of, not still repenting of, then and only then are repented sins left behind to go on to the perfecting the little saints in Christ Jesus: holy, righteous, and blameless living in this present evil world.

And he even goes on, seemingly against Christ (but for Christ), to say,

I find your lofty manner of unscriptural reasoning to be sophistic, not doctrinal.
You have misread the whole issue then..

When Paul said that what he willed to do he did not do, and what he did not want to do that he did. Are you under the impression that such behavior lost Paul his salvation, just as you now accuse those who also appear to be less than perfect? Because that seems to be the standard that you are now advocating.

But this I have already explained. Perhaps you never read it. To reiterate: Once a person is actual born [again] of the spirit and is a new creation dead to the old man, but new to God; and God in them and them in God, it is no longer them who live, but God who lives, whom cannot lose His salvation, for salvation belongs to Him. In which case, what Paul described and what the truly saved experience--is not ongoing sin, but rather them suffering under the tribulations of this world, even unto failure and death, which Christ has prayed against.

But what you apparently advocate is the very thing that Paul warned of about crucifying Christ again and again, which is not possible, for He only died once for sin. So then, this measure that you (and others) have taken up against your brethren in judgement-- unless you repent of it, was also warned of, that "For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." Matthew 7:2

Look first therefore, at your own doctrine.
 
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robert derrick

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I'll show you exactly what you do. You talk about being blameless without acknowledging that it's only Jesus making us righteous and blameless.

" be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith."

Keeping the law, whichever law you choose, will never make you blameless because you will always fail.

You don't understand grace. You cannot be holy by obedience. You can only rely on Jesus for your Holiness.

"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."
" be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith."

Are you really so blind, that you quote Scripture and show your ignorance of it?

Scripture condemns the self-righteous works that are not by the faith of God, while commending the doers of God's righteousness that is only by faith.

For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.


Keeping the law, whichever law you choose, will never make you blameless because you will always fail.

Why do you persist in equating holy, righteous, blameless living by the faith of Jesus with trying to be saved by the law?

I corrected you from equating righteou9s and blameless living in Christ by faith as being perfect and sinless, and so now you equate it with living by the law for salvation.

And so, are you an ungodly sinner? Answer the question.
 

ScottA

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Perhaps you mean no ungodly sinning sinner at this time is forgiven. True.

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


All ungodly sinners that repent and believe the gospel to obey Jesus from the heart, are forgiven of all past sins and are no more ungodly sinners, because they are created new creatures in Christ: They are no righteous souls washed clean in the blood of the Lamb.

No more souls with sin, and so no more judgement against sins, but rather souls living and clean even as the first Adam was made, and as the Second Adam coming into the world.

Unrepentant ungodly sinning sinners shall not stand in the congregation of the righteous that are no more sinners, but saints in Christ.

Simple.

If the Scripture speaks of ungodly sinners as such, 'saying nothing of forgiveness', then your accusation of prejudice is against Scripture.
I addressed both of these, here on another thread: We're FIGHTING because...
 

robert derrick

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You have misread the whole issue then..

When Paul said that what he willed to do he did not do, and what he did not want to do that he did. Are you under the impression that such behavior lost Paul his salvation, just as you now accuse those who also appear to be less than perfect? Because that seems to be the standard that you are now advocating.

But this I have already explained. Perhaps you never read it. To reiterate: Once a person is actual born [again] of the spirit and is a new creation dead to the old man, but new to God; and God in them and them in God, it is no longer them who live, but God who lives, whom cannot lose His salvation, for salvation belongs to Him. In which case, what Paul described and what the truly saved experience--is not ongoing sin, but rather them suffering under the tribulations of this world, even unto failure and death, which Christ has prayed against.

But what you apparently advocate is the very thing that Paul warned of about crucifying Christ again and again, which is not possible, for He only died once for sin. So then, this measure that you (and others) have taken up against your brethren in judgement-- unless you repent of it, was also warned of, that "For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." Matthew 7:2

Look first therefore, at your own doctrine.
When Paul said that what he willed to do he did not do, and what he did not want to do that he did. Are you under the impression that such behavior lost Paul his salvation, just as you now accuse those who also appear to be less than perfect?

Are you under the impression as OSAS, that Paul was proclaiming the perpetual state of all Christians to be that of wretchedly double mindedness unto the end of this life?

Are you current one of the double minded of Rom 7?

Are you an ungodly sinner?
 

Oceanprayers

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I think what would assist discussions like this is if more people sought out and studied the meaning of, Sovereign and Omniscient.

That there are bible study groups with members who believe there are things God cannot or does not know, seems to me to be evidence they first do not know the meaning or the depths of the word, God.
 

Renniks

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I still have sin in my mortal body, which I am responsible to reign over and not allow to enter as lust into my own heart, which Jesus has purified by His Spirit in answer to my prayers.

I have sin in my mortal corrupted body, not in my soul, nor lust in my heart.

Now, are you an ungodly sinner?
Lol, splitting hairs. If you have sin, it's not just in one part of you. All sin is lust of one kind or another and lust is always about pride.
"And they love to sit at the head table at banquets and in the seats of honor in the synagogues. They love to receive respectful greetings as they walk in the marketplaces, and to be called ‘Rabbi.’ … But those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted” (Matthew 23:6–12, NLT).
Humility is the gospel in a nutshell. It starts with humility and humility is the only way to remain in Christ.
Inducing pride is Satan's main tactic because it separates us from God. Not because we suddenly lose our salvation, but because it disrupts friendship with God.

"How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit. (NIV)

Satan is all about pride.

Am I an ungodly sinner? No, I'm a saint who still sins.
 

Renniks

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The pride of the predeterminators is that they suppose themselves to have been personally chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world.

They are so special, because their names were in glory before God ever created the heaven and the earth.

They were right there with God and the Word in the beginning.

Unlike the rest of the loser schlub souls that God did not Personally choose for Himself.

And so, they are not judged for being as ungodly and depraved as other unchosen sinners of the world, because they are so, so, so special before time ever even began.

Humbly so, of course.

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind.

They worship their own angelic names before the angels themselves were even created. They take great pride in being the prechosen angels from everlasting.

The only reason they honor the name of Jesus, is because their own honored names were prechosen with Him in the beginning of all things.
I think you are off the deep end here. I know plenty of humble good, OSAS Christians.
I don't agree with them 100 percent on doctrine but questioning thier standing with God is not my place.
 

ScottA

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When Paul said that what he willed to do he did not do, and what he did not want to do that he did. Are you under the impression that such behavior lost Paul his salvation, just as you now accuse those who also appear to be less than perfect?

Are you under the impression as OSAS, that Paul was proclaiming the perpetual state of all Christians to be that of wretchedly double mindedness unto the end of this life?

Are you current one of the double minded of Rom 7?

Are you an ungodly sinner?
You are dodging the issue..

You have been saying as much as Once Saved, Always Saved, is not even true, and that anyone who ever sins again according to the law of sin after being born [again] of the spirit of God, loses what cannot be taken from God's hand.

And now to waffle and sidestep the godly premise that salvation is [eternal] life, you have danced all the more around the scriptures until they seem to say what they do not. --That is not what Paul was referring to in Romans 7, but your own actions, they do define double-mindedness.
 

Lifelong_sinner

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You wont find anyone as “double minded” on this forum as robert derrick. All he knows is calvinism is wrong, and he’ll change his views to prove it. :confused::confused::confused:
 

Stumpmaster

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So then in your scenario. Jesus didnt die for all to have a chance--Not what the bible teaches. Romans 2 blows your thinking away.
Strawman argument which you have invented and I haven't presented. Naughty.
Everyone is predestined to have freewill in some things.
There is a clear path of logic and reasoning that links Adam and Eve's eating forbidden fruit to their guilt for doing so, otherwise any penalty for their doing so would be unjust. Rather than prove freewill is impossible, as some would say, the penalising of Adam and Eve's act of disobedience proves and reinforces God's provision of freewill and self-volition in His human Creation.

Those who ultimately choose to obey God are predestined for eternal glory.

Those who ultimately choose to disobey God are predestined for be eternally sorry.

While God's grace is sufficient for all, it is only efficient for some.

Mat 13:18-22 "Therefore hear the parable of the sower:

(19) When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

(20) But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; (21) yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

(22) Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

(23) But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."

WHAT TURNS THE WICKEDLY SINFUL HEART OF THE WAYSIDE, THE STONEY PLACE, & THE THORNY PATCH SINNER INTO THE FRUITFULLY FAITHFUL HEART OF THE GOOD, RICHLY FERTILE, PRODUCTIVE SOIL SAINT?

  • PREPARATION
  • CULTIVATION
  • IRRIGATION
  • EXAMINATION

1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.
Gal 6:4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
 

Taken

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Robert derrick wont ever answer the question of does he continue to sin. A humble person would say yes, robert derrick thinks you repent once and then you never ever sin again. That is completely wrong.

No, not wrong.