Who are the Promised Ones who shall possess the Land of God, forever?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

APAK

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2018
8,854
9,590
113
Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is conjecture as the bible states that God fulfilled that promise...to Israel. Abram's covenant included more than just Israel (but not less) including Ishmael and the nations listed in the following verse in Gen 15. Here is the verse that concludes the matter..

Josh. 21:43 So the Lord gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it.
Fine tuning...Excellent observation!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Episkopos

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,625
2,340
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Randy, agree with the first part.... the part that I disagree with you on is found in your last sentence of your post.

There is no National Israel to save today, literally, These people are gone as were the 10 tribes and then those of Judah and Benjamin during Paul's time. That was the last of the historical Nation of Israel. The ancestral line or blood line was deliberately severed by God. And there is no such thing as a Replacement theory. It's really not a theory, it is a fact. God deliberately replaced and extinguished National Israel into a better way through his Son and his Christ if they are willing, for all of us, and to a spiritual land, forever.

I can get more into it in my next posts...those calling themselves Israel or a Jew today are not genuine in blood-line natural/nationality or spirit. They are not the Israel of God. They can be if they find Christ and be part of the spiritual Israel as the rest in the Body.

Christians should be over in their 'State' trying to convert them back to God, to be grafted into the Tree of Life as they are really from the other nations, and never were part of National Israel...and if it is his will of course to do so.

Thanks

I appreciate your good will and honest thoughts. Yes, we do disagree on that. I'm not sure what it would take to break the deadlock? It appears to be determined by what we begin with, ie our presuppositions.

I do presuppose that Israel was promised a spiritual existence both in the beginning and on into eternity. You see their purpose as purely a "foreshadowing," as such, to be cast off as a husk and to be fulfilled in a completely different entity, the international Church.

To do this you have to define the Church as non-national, as apolitical. However, I begin with the notion that the Kingdom of God is political, and was designed to merge with earthly politics. Anyway, have a nice day. It's rare to get a disagreement without all of the typical "hate." ;) I do appreciate that!
 
  • Like
Reactions: APAK

APAK

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2018
8,854
9,590
113
Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I appreciate your good will and honest thoughts. Yes, we do disagree on that. I'm not sure what it would take to break the deadlock? It appears to be determined by what we begin with, ie our presuppositions.

I do presuppose that Israel was promised a spiritual existence both in the beginning and on into eternity. You see their purpose as purely a "foreshadowing," as such, to be cast off as a husk and to be fulfilled in a completely different entity, the international Church.

To do this you have to define the Church as non-national, as apolitical. However, I begin with the notion that the Kingdom of God is political, and was designed to merge with earthly politics. Anyway, have a nice day. It's rare to get a disagreement without all of the typical "hate." ;) I do appreciate that!
I appreciate your comments and I too am stunned that we agree to disagree in a few areas....Bless you and your day.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
This is conjecture as the bible states that God fulfilled that promise...to Israel.
That is definitely not conjecture. Ezekiel 48 has never been fulfilled under the conditions laid out in the book of Ezekiel.
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,625
2,340
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I appreciate your comments and I too am stunned that we agree to disagree in a few areas....Bless you and your day.

However, I am *not* stunned that we agree on probably the most important issues! ;)
May your day be a very fulfilling one, as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: APAK

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
They lost the land.
Well if they lost the land then they did not possess it for eternity! Do you see how your statement automatically cancels the possession of the Promised Land in the past? But it will be fulfilled in the future, if Christians will only believe what is written.
 

APAK

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2018
8,854
9,590
113
Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@Enoch111
The 'temple' prophesied in Ezekiel 40-48 refers to its fulfillment in Christ Yahshua and his gospel message. It is not for a physical natural Temple Enoch. It is one recognized only in the spirit on the heavenly realm.

There is no need of a centralized physical Temple in the city of Lights. The presence of God will be amongst his people. The true Temple and place of worship with be within us all and us in him.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
You have inserted your own meaning in some of it.
I do not have to insert anything. I showed you (and all readers) from Scripture that the land of greater Israel -- from the Nile to the Euphrates -- was promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (the patriarchs). That has never been literally fulfilled, but it will be in future. Believe it!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keraz

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
It is not for a physical natural Temple Enoch.
How can it not be a physical temple, when it is described in great detail as a physical temple? Are you now indulging in fantasy instead of taking the Bible in its plain literal sense? It is not "natural" since God commissions this temple so that it becomes His sanctuary. Why don't you get serious and study the prophecy of Ezekiel seriously? It is not wise to promote your own agenda in the face of Bible truth.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,509
12,929
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well if they lost the land then they did not possess it for eternity! Do you see how your statement automatically cancels the possession of the Promised Land in the past? But it will be fulfilled in the future, if Christians will only believe what is written.

I was addressing, you had said they never had the promised land.
But they did.

It is true, They possessed the promised land.
It is true, They lost possession of the promised land.
It is true, They lost possession....BECAUSE THEY STRAYED from God.
It is true, They shall return to God.
It is true, They shall regain their land possession.
It is true, WITH God shall His promise be permanently fulfilled.

What has changed in the meantime....the Promised Land Covenant, has expanded, to INCLUDE, Gentiles, who (like Jesus), take upon themselves, the seed of Abraham, and thus, also are heirs to the Promised Land.

Israelites, shall have their promised fulfilled...with a twist...Gentile inclusion.
I see no evidence of the names...Israelite or Gentile...having thereafter (the actual occupancy of the land) a having NAME distinctions of “Israelites or Gentiles”.

In that respect, the Israelites were promised land, were given land promised....
Occupied that land....lost it.

Regaining the land, is no longer specific to the Israelites. That promise was already fulfilled.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I was addressing, you had said they never had the promised land. But they did.
Not if you carefully examine the record. The Promised Land extended from the Nile to the Euphrates. Show us where this was the area occupied by Israel at any time in its history. Under Solomon (who had the most extensive kingdom) the land was perhaps only 1/4th of what was promised to Abraham.

upload_2022-1-21_16-28-15.png
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,509
12,929
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@Enoch111

Soloman’s reign was after the Tribes.
The Land masses very, as do their divisions, of who was promised what, and who was given what.
Tribes were given land.
Noah’s sons were given land.
Abraham was promised land.
Abraham’s descendants were given land.
Abraham’s descendants were Jewish and Arab.
All of these people occupied these lands.
From ancient days to now, people have fought over the land, moved the boundaries, rename the land.
Not a big deal to me.
Men sit at round tables hashing out give and take proposals they call diplomacy.
Nothing will be resolved, until Jesus’ claims His earthly Kingdom.
There is no Political Solution to a Spiritual Problem

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
There is no Political Solution to a Spiritual Problem
God is not providing political solutions but He will keep His promises and covenants. Redeemed and restored Israel will be spiritual and regenerated Israel. You don't have to take my word for it. Simply read and study the book of Ezekiel -- an amazing prophecy.
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,625
2,340
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Not if you carefully examine the record. The Promised Land extended from the Nile to the Euphrates. Show us where this was the area occupied by Israel at any time in its history. Under Solomon (who had the most extensive kingdom) the land was perhaps only 1/4th of what was promised to Abraham.

View attachment 20213

Gen 15.18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates..."

2 Chronicles 9:26 He ruled over all the kings from the Euphrates River to the land of the Philistines, as far as the border of Egypt.
 

pittsburghjoe

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2021
1,421
285
83
West PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You know i'm on your side, i've got some more videos that i don't agree with everything they say (they are partial Premill), but i think you will get some value out of them.



 
  • Like
Reactions: APAK

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
2 Chronicles 9:26 He ruled over all the kings from the Euphrates River to the land of the Philistines, as far as the border of Egypt.
"As far as the border of Egypt" is NOT the same as "from the river of Egypt (the Nile) to the Euphrates. Furthermore, as you well know, that was only temporary, since in the end the Babylonians, the Persians, the Greeks, and the Romans ruled over Palestine. We are talking about an ETERNAL possession (see Ezekiel).
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,509
12,929
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God is not providing political solutions but He will keep His promises and covenants. Redeemed and restored Israel will be spiritual and regenerated Israel. You don't have to take my word for it. Simply read and study the book of Ezekiel -- an amazing prophecy.

Of course. Was addressing men, (not God), trying to resolve a Spiritual problem with a Political solution. Fully aware, God has everything in control.
Nice chatting. Take care.
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,625
2,340
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"As far as the border of Egypt" is NOT the same as "from the river of Egypt (the Nile) to the Euphrates. Furthermore, as you well know, that was only temporary, since in the end the Babylonians, the Persians, the Greeks, and the Romans ruled over Palestine. We are talking about an ETERNAL possession (see Ezekiel).

I think the passage in 2 Chron 9.26 is given precisely for the purpose of showing that it was the fulfillment of the promise in Gen 15.18. You're right--he River of Egypt was not the Nile. Shur was the border of Egypt, and was the desert area bordering Israel, as I understand it. So Shur was synonymous with the River of Egypt, which is also in the territory of Shur, bordering Egypt.

I think you might think of the desert between Israel and Egypt as the border of Egypt. It is not the surveyed line designating the precise border of Egypt, but rather, the buffer area that presented an extensive barrier between Israel and Egypt. Israel did not have to include this desert area to fulfill it's calling to be on this large border with Egypt. I think the desert *was* the border, and was not intended to be part of the property of Israel any farther west than the River of Egypt.

I might add that in that ancient time Egypt owned territory up to and including the region of Shur and beyond the River of Egypt. God said that Israel would conquer the Philistines down to the River of Egypt. That happened in the time of Solomon.

As for the sense that this must be an eternal promise, I'm not sure that the precise details of the land inheritance are what stand forever, no more than the tribal barriers continue forever. The promise concerns the heritage of a nation in the land of Israel. If they lost their land they've had it promised to them that they would eventually recover their land and their covenant with God in the time of Messiah.
 
Last edited:

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
5,055
919
113
82
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Redeemed and restored Israel will be spiritual and regenerated Israel.
To Whom Was the Kingdom Given?

In Romans 3:1-2 Paul admits that the Jews were a favored people "chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God, which is an obvious reference to all the twelve tribes at Sinai. It is of these same people that he refers in the words "who are Israelites" in Romans 9: 3-5. These Jews, these Israelites, limited God's promises to a literal nation, as Anglo-Israelites has done, but the kingdom was taken from them for reasons we may list from New Testament references as follows:

Rom. 2:24. The name of God was blasphemed by Gentiles because of Jewish inconsistency. Luke 16:1-12. The Jews had completely failed as God's stewards.

Matt. 21:33-44; Isa. 5:7. They did not bring forth the fruits of God's kingdom—evangelism and righteousness.

Paul's agony over his unrepentant kinsmen is clearly seen in Romans 9:3, and in verse 8 he states explicitly: They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The Jew, which is one outwardly, is not a Jew. . . . But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly. Romans 2:28-29 That is, any believer who accepts the covenant promises is a spiritual Jew or Israelite and an inheritor through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jesus. The promise of heirship of the world was not for Abraham alone; but for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead.

In God's sight there is now; neither Jew nor Greek . . . : for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you be in Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:26-29

Thus it is: that the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. Romans 9:30

The great apostle to the Gentiles gives the reason for the withdrawal of covenant privileges from the people of Israel, or the Jews, and their bestowal on the Gentiles:
It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing as you rejected it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, so now we turn to the Gentiles. Acts 13:36

For this reason another apostle spoke of the Gentiles who had entered into covenant relation with Christ in these terms:
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light: which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy (1 Peter 2:9, 10).

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God. Jews, ethnic Christ rejecting Israelites. Gentiles, all the godless peoples of the world. The church of God, the individual true Christian believers from every tribe, race, nation and language.

Clearly the kingdom promises were taken from the unbelieving Jewish nation — and given to believing Gentiles and Jews—God's elect in every nation. To twice-born men, regardless of race, and to them alone, now belong:
the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, . . . and the promises. Romans 9:30

The Dispensation theory is based on the same fallacy committed by the Jews, or Israel, of Christ's day. They limit God's covenant promises and blessings to be a literal nation, or nations, whereas they belong to every man in Christ Jesus.