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Davy

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Obvious scripture gymnastics Davy. The plain reading of the scripture is advised. Your explanation if applied across the Bible would make it one big blob of text that allows anyone to define any verse as they wish. Our God is not a God of confusion. Even with your attempt to change we would need to accept that Paul used in his "analogy" something that didn't exist. No not buying it.

No gymnastics, just simple reading of The Scripture. Paul was giving an analogy there with that "Though". He was speaking metaphorically about being able to speak with the tongue of angels. And furthermore, didn't those on earth whom angels appeared to understand them when they spoke? So where is the Bible examples that they spoke a special language? It is not written. It's just an idea from men.
 

Davy

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And your words come from where... criticizing the ones you mention as if you knew them all and knew all of their hearts?

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Matt 12:36-37

Same goes for you too bud.

Just remember, when you point your finger, there's four more pointing back at yourself.
 

amadeus

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Same goes for you too bud.

Just remember, when you point your finger, there's four more pointing back at yourself.
I asked a question, and that not of you, and quoted a scripture. You do not know my thoughts nor the reason for my question.
 

Davy

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I asked a question, and that not of you, and quoted a scripture. You do not know my thoughts nor the reason for my question.

You tried to mock Behold by throwing the 'idle words' passage at him, just because he rebuked charismatic's false belief in a gibberish speech. He is correct on what he said, and here's more proof...

 

amadeus

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You tried to mock Behold by throwing the 'idle words' passage at him, just because he rebuked charismatic's false belief in a gibberish speech. He is correct on what he said, and here's more proof...
I was initiating discussion on the subject, but not with you. I will wait for his response. Have a nice day!
 

Bob Carabbio

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Of course I've read it, but not with charismatic's ideas added to it.

Have you never read Acts 2 then, since it sounds like you think the gibberish tongue some speak today is the true cloven tongue?
My Bible has more that one chapter. I have no reason (from my own personal experience in the Spirit) to believe that "Tongues" in 2022 is any different (in it's many variations) than "Tongues" in the Apostolic Churches. I suggest you pull off your cessationist glasses, and read 1 Cor 12-14 for what the text says.
 
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Bob Carabbio

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I agree that much of the issue with tongues is the incorrect application of Angelic tongue vs. unknown language. Please understand I use the word Angelic just so it's clear that I'm not talking about Spanish, Greek, Hebrew or any of the native languages of tribes etc. A word spoken that only the Spirit understands, God understands and not anyone else unless given the gift of interpretation. I 100% agree with your manifestation list. What I do not agree with is any of those manifestations becoming necessary for salvation, as some necessary sign.

And all the MAJOR Historic Pentecostal, and CHarismatic groups agree: "Baptism in the Holy SPirit with signs following" IS NOT related to "Being Born again". One exception would be the Oneness Pentecostals (UPCI) that DO require tongues before they'll let you be saved. Of course they have other problems too as an ultra legalistic FUNDY bunch.

I'm confident God doesn't need a sign of the condition of my soul. It is simply a gift of the Spirit much like many other gifts, no more of importance than any other gift and maybe lower than some. We should seek all gifts. Churches that make speaking in tongues a central part of their worship I think are missing the mark. The same with healing and any other sign gift. This leads to some walking away from the faith, some feeling like they are never born again, a Church environment that is all evangelist centered and never the full teaching of Gods word. The Pastor keeps saving the choir over and over again. A Pastor that never gets out of Paul's epistles and ignores large parts of the Bible. I find that my theology is between the Assembly of God denomination and the Calvary Chapel non denomination group. Agreeing mostly with both but not on everything with both. I've found that within these groups there can be differences, not all AOG Churches are the same for example. I'm really more interested in Jesus and the Holy Spirits guidance in his word then I am any corporate group.

Yup, as I've stated before - for most of the last 58 years (and presently) I've been a member in good standing of the AG, and held every church office except Senior Pastor, and Women's Ministries director. However, the AG doesn't "define me", since I'm a Free-Range Charismatic, NON-Systematic, Non-Denominational, and theologically eclectic mongrel. As Institutional churches go, the AG is close enough.
 
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JunChosen

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The reasons there are so much quibbling on this thread about tongues is because of lack of knowledge. God has warned us in Hosea 4:6 which reads:
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee... "

Bearing this Scripture in mind, we will find that the phenomenon of tongues spoken in the church of Corinth, heard in about fifteen different tongues at Pentecost, and written in Mark 16:17-18. Yet all these phenomenon of tongues are different in and of itself!.

EXPLANATION

REASON ONE:

Has anyone wondered why this phenomenon in speaking in tongues ONLY OCCURRED in the Church of Corinth and in no other church?

Well. I will only expound on verse 39 as chapter 14 has many truths that I believe points to verse 39.

In this verse, we read that Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said that it is better "to covet to prophesy and "to forbid not to speak in tongues."
When we study the Bible, to prophesy means to declare God's Word/Gospel in plain language.. This is the reason of verses 18-19.

In other words, God was NOT yet done in declaring His revelation to mankind, until He wrote Revelation 22:18-19.

REASON TWO

Acts 2:1-4 is NOT UNDERSTOOD by many as well. This phenomenon of tongues was predicted in verse 18 and by Joel 2:28-29.
We read in Acts 1:4-8 Jesus told the apostles not to depart from Jerusalem but to wait for the promise of the Father to give them the "power: [dunamis] of the Holy Spirit so THAT they may begin to start evangelizing and proclaim the Gospel to the world. Hence Pentecost happened as people from different tongues [known languages of that day] heard the Gospel in their own tongue wherein they were born!

Mark 16:17-18 we are told that there are five signs that shall follow those that believer:
1) In my name shall they cast out devils.
2) They shall speak with new tongues.
3) They shall take up serpents.
4) And if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them.
5) They shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Now if we look around various congregations and churches can we find anywhere that these signs are in evidence?

For example were they able to pick up rattlesnakes and pick up poisonous vipers and not be harmed? They will speak a new tongue. Can we find any church anywhere where they are able to drink strychnine or cyanide and not be harmed? And if they lay hands on the sick they will recover? It says, "These five signs are to be found wherever there are true believers."

Now there are those who like the sign, "They will speak with new tongues" and say that, that is God's intention. Well, if we are going to read it literally then what about picking up serpents, and what about drinking deadly things?

However, when we study the Bible we find that God spoke in parables. A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning. Then we understand that these five signs DO follow those that believe.

Now does anybody know of anyone in a church that can handle a rattle snake and not be harmed by it? Well, does it not say that these signs will follow those that believe?
When we study the Bible we learn that the serpent represents Satan and he has authority over us. And in the world there are those who knows

how to handle snakes. A snake handler have power to pick up the snake. Spiritually before we became saved we were under the power of Satan but when we became saved we have power over him. We rule over him. As Jesus went to the cross He was victorious and plundered the household and prison of Satan, and so where there are believers these signs are found, thus as believers we now have power over Satan.

Now likewise, drinking any deadly things. The water that we drink is the same water that Jesus gave to the Samaritan woman, "the water that I will give you, you will never thirst again." But when we are under the hearing of false doctrines as per Deuteronomy 32:32 and as true believers we are held fast by the Lord Jesus Christ. So wherever true believers are found that principle can be seen.

Now to cast out devils is liken to when we bring the Gospel and someone becomes saved it's like casting out devils from that person.

They shall speak with new tongues. And they shall speak a new song as per Psalms 144:9. Before we were saved we speak the language of the world. We don't understand the meaning of the words like salvation, mercy, and grace. It could still be the language of the political world like Spanish, English, or German. But when we become saved we are translated into the new kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ. We don't speak a heavenly language that we don't understand. It's still an English or German or whatever political language we speak but now we speak the kingdom of God that we did not understand before we became saved.

And likewise, laying hands on the sick. The sick that God has in view are those who has the greatest sin of all, that is the sin sicked souls. And best of all when we preach the Gospel and someone become saved and healed of his sin. All these five signs are found everywhere there are true believers! And has nothing to do with speaking in an unknown tongue!!!

I hope this helps.

To God Be the Glory
 
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Enoch111

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Has anyone wondered why this phenomenon in speaking in tongues ONLY OCCURRED in the Church of Corinth and in no other church?
That may not necessarily be the case. It was the Corinthian church (or some therein) which was abusing the gift of tongues. Other churches may not have been doing that.
 

Curtis

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If it was the man's home then it appears this was Phillip's house church, and if they were prophesying in his house then they were prophesying in church, yes?
As Peter quoted Joel in Acts 2, in the last days:

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Hmm....
 
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Curtis

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Well now, I know this is your position, but what I am asking you for is what would be the reasoning behind it. Why would God allow women to teach men outside the assembly, but not allow women to teach men inside of it?
Prophecy by a woman isn’t a woman teaching anyone - the message is from God, not her, nor is doing so usurping a man’s authority, and God is doing the speaking, not her.
 

JunChosen

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That may not necessarily be the case. It was the Corinthian church (or some therein) which was abusing the gift of tongues. Other churches may not have been doing that.

What other churches? Did you not understand that I said this tongue phenomenon ONLY OCCURRED at the Church of Corinth and no other churches?

First answer whether what I said was true or not because you can't give a Scripture that declare that this tongue phenomenon was also exercised in another church! In fact any other church.

The problem with people is that they copy other people's theology and make them their own without so much as to investigate if the people they are trusting are faithful to the word of God or not.

Now please show in Scripture where else this phenomenon of speaking in tongues did it occur?

And since we're on the subject where do you find that speaking in tongues was being abused in the church of Corinth?

Do you even know the meaning of tongues that is set forth in the church of Corinth? I have a feeling you don't.
 

Curtis

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What other churches? Did you not understand that I said this tongue phenomenon ONLY OCCURRED at the Church of Corinth and no other churches?

First answer whether what I said was true or not because you can't give a Scripture that declare that this tongue phenomenon was also exercised in another church! In fact any other church.

The problem with people is that they copy other people's theology and make them their own without so much as to investigate if the people they are trusting are faithful to the word of God or not.

Now please show in Scripture where else this phenomenon of speaking in tongues did it occur?

And since we're on the subject where do you find that speaking in tongues was being abused in the church of Corinth?

Do you even know the meaning of tongues that is set forth in the church of Corinth? I have a feeling you don't.

They spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost, in Jerusalem - and that gift is for all believers in every church:

Peter said on Pentecost day, that the same gift of the HS that manifested that day, was for “us, our children those afar off, EVEN TO AS MANY AS GOD SHALL CALL” Acts 2:38-39 -

After Pentecost that gift is given by the laying on of hands to all believers:


2Ti 1:6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift (charisma) of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands,

2Ti 1:7 for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power (dunamis) and love and self-control.

Charisma, the root word of charismatic, is given by the laying on of hands to all believers, which includes all churches everywhere that believers are in.

This is seen here:

Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Paul was at Ephesus when he did that - the Ephesians church is in Ephesus:

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

He found a group of disciples there who didn’t yet have the gift of the Holy Spirit, so he laid hands on them and imparted that gift.

Tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit, so obviously is for all believers in every church.

Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

You really are in error on the topic of tongues, and need to study much more on this.
 
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Enoch111

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What other churches? Did you not understand that I said this tongue phenomenon ONLY OCCURRED at the Church of Corinth and no other churches?
How could it have "only" occurred in just one church, when the spiritual gifts were given to ALL Christians in all churches?
 
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JunChosen

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How could it have "only" occurred in just one church, when the spiritual gifts were given to ALL Christians in all churches?

Then tell me what other churches that "tongues" were spoken since you claim that the spiritual gifts were given to all Christians?

I believe no one here including yourself understand the meaning of tongues spoken at the church in Corinth and it is a different tongues from that happened at Pentecost as well as found in Mark 16:17.

Please enlighten me. Not with opinions but facts.
 

Davy

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My Bible has more that one chapter. I have no reason (from my own personal experience in the Spirit) to believe that "Tongues" in 2022 is any different (in it's many variations) than "Tongues" in the Apostolic Churches. I suggest you pull off your cessationist glasses, and read 1 Cor 12-14 for what the text says.

I suggest to you sir... that YOU go back to re-read Acts 2, because clearly... you don't understand what The Word of God says there. By that statement I assume you now know what I think of 'your' word, which can never replace God's Word as written.

In Acts 2 in the Greek, there is even an alternation for the subject of what tongue was spoken on Pentecost. Even in the Greek with the word dialektos, it shows each person present heard them speak in their OWN dialect of the place they were born! And people like you want me to believe what they spoke was gibberish? Nuts!
 

Mugre Pinzon

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I used to be just like you and was a Cessationist. I'm sure glad I experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit. You don't know what you are missing. There is so much more. And if you are still a lifelong sinner, you better confess your sin and believe that Jesus will cleanse you of all unrighteousness before it is too late. No one with sin in them will inherit eternal life. 1 John 3:1-3. Revelation 22:11

I've been purchased (saved) by the Blood of the Lamb. That said, it is not possible for me to shed this sin nature while I inhabit this mortal body. I endeavor daily to live in a way that is pleasing to my Savior, but I fail, I know I do. Thankfully, Jesus's sacrifice for us covers us now and always. It will be wonderful to shed this sin nature when we're transformed, hopefully soon. I am a sinner, but justified by Jesus Christ.
 

Curtis

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I suggest to you sir... that YOU go back to re-read Acts 2, because clearly... you don't understand what The Word of God says there. By that statement I assume you now know what I think of 'your' word, which can never replace God's Word as written.

In Acts 2 in the Greek, there is even an alternation for the subject of what tongue was spoken on Pentecost. Even in the Greek with the word dialektos, it shows each person present heard them speak in their OWN dialect of the place they were born! And people like you want me to believe what they spoke was gibberish? Nuts!

You can’t just pick the verses you like, and ignore the rest, because Paul said there are diversities of tongues, that means more than one kind. And the New Testament shows there is the Acts 2 tongue, which is understood by everyone, and there is unknown tongue never understood by anyone because it is the spirit speaking mysteries onto God, and then in first Corinthians chapter 14 you find unknown tongues that need interpreted in church.

Paul told the Corinthian Church in chapter 14 to forbid not speaking in tongues - now if there was only one tongue and it was understood by everyone, then that means Paul wrote to forbid not speaking in a known language, which is ludicrous.

Therefore it’s clear that are three kinds of tongues in the Bible, not just one that you harp on from Acts chapter 2.

Scripture interprets scripture, so try looking at every scripture on a topic, instead of your pet scriptures that you use to make the Bible say what YOU want it to say, Instead of what it actually says.
 
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Davy

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You can’t just pick the verses you like, and ignore the rest, because Paul said there are diversities of tongues, that means more than one kind. ....

If you were trying to support the gibberish speech some claim is the cloven tongue of Pentecost, then you failed miserably. When Paul said 'diversities of tongues' he obviously was speaking of 'known' languages of the world! How's that? Those who claim the gibberish they speak is the cloven tongue are pointing to a SINGLE tongue, what they call 'the' "unknown tongue". Thing is, the KJV translators added the word "unknown" in the 1 Corinthians 14 chapter, that word is not in the Greek texts. Paul was speaking of 'known'... languages of the world, for that... is what those present at Pentecost heard, even in the dialect of their own place of birth!

So go look it up in a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance what those words in the KJV of Acts 2 is per the Greek, and try to prove me wrong. And by doing that, it certainly is NOT... just covering a single verse.