Homosexuality

"Brothertom, of you were to check scripture, you would see that God listed a number of sins that the people of Sodom were committing, only one of them being their homosexual activities."...............

You must mean this:

"Look!" this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy............... And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit."

There were FOUR Sodomite plain cities associated with Sodom, & all of them had descended into Satanic Filth...Even Raping innocent travellers to death for Sport.....& as it spread like a cancer, the entire population would come out to watch, to participate & entertain themselves.

"Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both OLD and YOUNG,.... ALL the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally!"

...Even though Sodom was the offender that day, there were four cities infected with the same evil....."The whole land is brimstone, salt, and burning; it is not sown, nor does it bear, nor does any grass grow there, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, which the Lord overthrew in His anger and His wrath."

I believe that this was the spirit of the Old World that our grandfather Noah escaped from...was saved from. It became like a Vortex, A Juggernaught Whirl-wind that increased in power exponentially until everyone got sucked into it's center. The Lord sat on HIS Throne, watching generations of young babies grow up, whom He loved & created, & eventually participate in these abominations & become exceedingly defiled, & He had to Damn them.....over & over & over, generation after generation...He grieved...& then rose in anger.

Look at it this way.....Tortureous, hideous, sadistic Murder...& I imagine the act itself became a swirl of Devils...howling as the victim moaned in terror...& the entire CITY!....little children, Gramma, Grampa, little Suzie & 4 year old Marky....watched the nastiest bloodletting & murder imaginable....being taught that this was fun, THIS is how we enjoy ourselves.

This! is where the Old world had came into, & why it was destroyed. Satan had created another start, another root to grow from, & it had spread to these 4 plain cities...& the Lord was not going to allow it to spread.

I went to the Pompeii World-Class Museum display. Pompeii & another city were annihilated by fire & brimstone by the Volcano there. I was amazed at the level of copper/silver sculpture there, & their art. There were these demons carved into everything from table-ware, to seats & chairs & goblets & statues...pure idolatry. Many of them were simply pornographic, & yes, filled with sodomite activity. They were Devil worshippers, & I believe had descended into the wicked Vortex that is over the line, & God visited them in their wrath...none escaped.

God does not damn children...I know this....so even if they die in anothers sin, He rescues them.

Back to Homosexuality. Many are molested as children, some children even are devil possessed; Jesus healed some. Many children have very sick, loveless mothers & fathers who tore down their children's confidence & identities, & they began to practice sodomy somewhere along the line in their rebellion. This is different than the sin of the city Sodom....murderous torture....& in one sense no different than heterosexual fornication.....but.....this sin affects the spirit...& actually changes the spirit of a man or a woman....& it seems to me much more demonic...a higher level of wickedness.

God loves the sinner. God desires that we ALL are healed.....& we must not practice sin, or we will die, be damned. This is what Jesus came & shed His Blood for. I think of Two people who Jesus encountered.
1: Mary Magdalene.........." and certain women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities—Mary called Magdalene, out of whom had come seven demons."

2: The Gadarene brother:
"When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him. And he cried out with a loud voice and said, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God that You do not torment me.”

For He said to him, “Come out of the man, unclean spirit!” Then He asked him, “What is your name?”
And he answered, saying, “My name is Legion; for we are many.” Also he begged Him earnestly that He would not send them out of the country."

These did not have the means to be delivered; Jesus sought them out, & just loved them, & healed them. Mary was chosen as the FIRST ONE He appeared to...The most signifigant event ever in World History was first witnessed by her! Wow!...& she was a demon possessed fornicator practicing who knows what in her profession?...but it didn't matter to Jesus.

Jesus went out of His way to pursue the Gadarene.....Why? He loved them, & wanted them to be saved; So He also died for them.

This ought to be our attitude to the "Gay"....& if we can manifest Agape mercies...some will believe by our witness...& some will become our family members...our brothers & sisters.

" Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

.......... nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.!"

Everybody here falls into some category up there.....& we must give mercy to get it. We all were cut from an evil Adam that raves to lust & pride itself. Let the church be healed enough to begin to be a House of Healing & refuge for the soul needing restoration; who ever & whatever they may be, or have done. Jesus's Blood is deep enough to cover every sin, & we must carry His love to really Know Him.

Foreigner said:

Yes,
'turning away from sin' means to stop sinning. Working to completely eliminate that sin from your life.






.

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Thank you, Foreignor, for your answer. Just to clarify your position, then... So what you are saying is that in order to receive eternal life from God, one must work to completely eliminate sin from one's life?

williemac said:

Thank you, Foreignor, for your answer. Just to clarify your position, then... So what you are saying is that in order to receive eternal life from God, one must work to completely eliminate sin from one's life?

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-- Yes, we are to work to eliminate all sin from our lives.
Will we be successful? I don't see how we as flawed creations can be completely successful, but God sees our efforts and if we are sincerely repentant He will continue to forgive. He also assists in overcoming sin if we sincerely seek His help. Over time the influence of that sin can be greatly reduced if not removed, but then the person is responsible for vigilance to keep it from returning.




Brothertom, I know I shouldn't say this, but it can be entertaining sometimes being able to so easily put a fire under you.

You could have quit after your first sentence:
"Look!" this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy........."

Ezekiel 16:49 itself proves that God's wrath was not restricted to violence or sexual immorality, let alone homosexual acts.


I like the ESV translation:

"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had
pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy."

But the NIV translation does a better job of confirming that Gluttony can also be added to their list of sins:

"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were
arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy."

Foreigner said:

-- Yes, we are to work to eliminate all sin from our lives.
Will we be successful? I don't see how we as flawed creations can be completely successful, but God sees our efforts and if we are sincerely repentant He will continue to forgive. He also assists in overcoming sin if we sincerely seek His help. Over time the influence of that sin can be greatly reduced if not removed, but then the person is responsible for vigilance to keep it from returning.

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Hey! Sorry to jump in in the middle of your conversation with Willemac, but I just wanted to ask a quick question....

Willemac asked if: "in order to receive eternal life from God, one must work to completely eliminate sin from one's life?"

In your answer above do you mean your 'yes' as something that comes as a result of salvation...an outpouring of our new hearts...a response to salvation....or, as the question stated...do you believe that it is a necessary component 'to receive eternal life'?

Ta....

Great question, Rach.
Perhaps I misunderstood what he was asking.
Cutting back on Mt. Dew has affected my ability to focus....

If you give your life to Christ, ask Him to be your Lord, and ask sincere forgiveness for your sins, you are a new creature in Christ. Saved.

But from that point on God expects you to strive to avoid further sin in your life. We are fallen creatures so we will struggle, but if we did our best and ask sincere forgiveness for our failure(s) - which there will be - He will forgive our sins.

If we continue to willfully allow sin in our lives and do not do our best to remove it, He will allow us to become hardened/callous to the sin and the Holy Spirit will quit convicting.
It is then that you have - by your own deeds - put your salvation in jeopardy.

Foreigner said:

Great question, Rach.
Perhaps I misunderstood what he was asking.
Cutting back on Mt. Dew has affected my ability to focus....

If you give your life to Christ, ask Him to be your Lord, and ask sincere forgiveness for your sins, you are a new creature in Christ. Saved.

But from that point on God expects you to strive to avoid further sin in your life. We are fallen creatures so we will struggle, but if we did our best and ask sincere forgiveness for our failure(s) - which there will be - He will forgive our sins.

If we continue to willfully allow sin in our lives and do not do our best to remove it, He will allow us to become hardened/callous to the sin and the Holy Spirit will quit convicting.
It is then that you have - by your own deeds - put your salvation in jeopardy.

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Cool, thanks. I thought that's where you were at, but sometimes it helps to check!

It's often a worrying trend, I think, between two sort of groups....those who "let go and let God"....and those who "God helps those who help themselves". One absolves us from all responsibility for our actions, and the other denies God any glory in our lives and circumstances. When in truth the biblical response lies in the middle. God does all the saving and redeeming, but expects certain things of our new lives. Anyone truly in love with Jesus cannot just sit back and let sin continue to reign in their lives unabated. It's not a question of salvation, so much as darn respect. Jesus died for us...he gave us everything...freedom! Why on earth would we want to disrespect that by giving sin a 'whatever' attitude?

I think that in respect to the homosexual debate, that people who are gay and yet demanding acceptance into the Church...be that as members or even staff/pastors...they do not understand this. Either that, or they understand it very well...and that's why they are pushing so much for homosexuality to be taken off the 'sin' list. But the problem is....it's not our 'list' to edit. God has said, and it's not up to us to gainsay him. I'm sorry if people are struggling with this particular sin in their lives...but it's simply not up to us to change it. What it is up to us to do, is to share that burden with them, and reveal to them how freedom is possible. People so often forget to mention just how much joy comes from following God's edicts....they forget that the real reason God has made them is for our joy...and by refusing them, they miss out on so much.

According to the American Psychological Association: There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.

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I wouldn't put all your begs in one askit if I were you when it comes to the APA. They said many moons ago you are not born homosexual. Then they said you are born homosexual. Then they said you are probably not born homosexual.

They also said no women suffers negative results from abortion. I guess all the books that tell of the suffering women have gone through as a result of having an abortion are all telling lies.

Plus, a previous President of the organisation is on record as saying that the APA has lost its way as scientific rigour has been replaced by politically correct ideology.

Add to their woes is the fact that in their statement of faith they say that if someone asks a counsellor to help them out of homosexuality, they must be helped even though they believe that is not possible.

if I were you, I would drop the APA as a reference as they don't seem to know whether they are Arthur or Martha.

And to correct one other thing a homosexual orientation does not have to lead to homosexuality. The orientation in most cases is due to an emotionally deficient childhood so it is not their choice. However, to act on that is a choice as no one makes anyone have sex with a man. It only happens because the person chooses to let it happen.

It is no different to a heterosexual. They have a sexual orientation towards the opposite sex but they don't have to follow through on it. If they have sex with a woman who is not their wife, that is a choice they make.

If they are sexually promiscuous with women then that is their choice as no one makes them promiscuous. If a man is sexually promiscuous with other men that is their choice as no one makes them do it.

If they say they can't help being homosexual as it is not a choice, they are deceiving themselves the same as a promiscuous heterosexual who says he can't help being promiscuous.

Sin is an odd thing, when one truly comes to Christ one is no longer under the law, without the law there is no sin, it was the law that made us sinners. Christ condemned sin to the flesh it is our spirit He desires to save our flesh with all its sin will die and return to the dust from where it came. This is why in Christ we are free, no more condemnation. If you feel condemned by your sin than you are walking in the flesh not in the spirit.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Lets leave sin to God for we do not fully comprehend what is and what is not.

Joh 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

In all His Love

The Law was replaced with the New Covenant. One does indeed sin when they go against the teachings in the New Testament. In which case, it is stated that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom, the same as idolators, thieves, liars, etc.

Jesus did not warn about adultery and other sins for nothing. The most dangerous thing a Christian could teach is that a believer does not sin or that the commandments and natural law (not to be confused with the Old Law) of God aren't still in effect. Wickedness and transgression against either of those things are punishable.

Hi mjrhealth,

You seem to have forgotten a few important verses of scripture, such as:

Romans 8:13, Colossians 3:5, Galatians 5:16 - 18, Romans 8:11,1 Thessalonians 4:3, 4, 5 and Romans 6:4, to name but a few.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This victory is by no other route. In Christ 'the sin' was conquered, and thus the law became unnecessary for those who receive His death for 'the sin' in their lives, and start walking in the Spirit. The flesh being always present is the testing ground where we show God whom we serve.

The grace that we are under is not an absence of 'the law' but rather the presence of a new 'law' - the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus. This grace is the power which enables us to live in the strength of the Holy Spirit, doing the 'right' things with our flesh - Ephesians 2:10.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.


We have been given the Holy Spirit so that we can experience sin not having dominion over us any more. The Holy Spirit doesn't do this for us. We have to do it with the help of the Holy Spirit. We have to yield our bodies as servants to righteousness. Romans 12:1, 2

SilenceInMotion said:

The Law was replaced with the New Covenant. One does indeed sin when they go against the teachings in the New Testament. In which case, it is stated that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom, the same as idolators, thieves, liars, etc.

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Whether or not there is an appropriate Greek term for the word 'homosexual/homosexuality' as we refer to it nowadays, the facts are that 'homosexuality/homosexual' are terms that were NEVER found in the original manuscripts. Indeed, one will not find that word even in the KJV. While this does not mean that an equivalent term for 'homosexuality' was not used, it irritates me somewhat when people such as SilenceInMotion claim that 'the scriptures' say what they do not say. One more time, the words 'homosexuality/homosexual' were coined only relatively recently. If one needs to quote the scriptures then do so using the original texts and not an Anglo/anti-gay-slanted version of those texts!

SilenceInMotion said:

Jesus did not warn about adultery and other sins for nothing. The most dangerous thing a Christian could teach is that a believer does not sin or that the commandments and natural law (not to be confused with the Old Law) of God aren't still in effect. Wickedness and transgression against either of those things are punishable.

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Whatever Jesus might have preached about we need to bear in mind that anything He said - or was reported to have said - was said PRIOR to his crucifixion. Just think about that for a moment. Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection had to occur BEFORE believers in Jesus had their sins imputed to His righteousness. That said, is there any chance that some of you folks could concentrate LESS on how miserable and wicked others are and become more concerned with your own standing with Jesus . . .? I can't help but wonder if some of you are more 'lost' than the ones you point fingers at.

By the way, SilenceInMotion, is there any chance that you could provide a list of commandments that were nailed to the cross and those that were not? There seems to be much confusion - as well as selective scripture choosing - among Christians when it comes to the Laws of the Torah that were done away with and those of the New Covenant that are, presumably, still in force. I won't ask for a show of hands from those who claim to have this 'Law thing' figured out . . .UNLESS, it's the following simplistic message of the Gospel: ..."Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners." How many 'accusers' are REALLY familiar with this scripture?

Hey Aspen...how are you going?
I feel I should probably point out that determining God's will and thoughts on a subject can never be moot! In fact the more we understand God's thoughts and decrees on something, the better we know how we should act on the subject.

Hi Rach - nice to read your post!

God's thoughts and perspective are higher than we can fathom - all we can do is relate to Him though obedience and that means loving Him and one another. My dog will never relate to me on any other level than obedience and affection - how much greater is the gulf between humanity and God?
I disagree. Knowledge does not change hearts. Telling a sinner that God hates their sin is not a start - loving them into a relationship with the Holy Spirit, who will convict them is the only way to nurture their faith without jading their heart. For example, the homeless kids I work with understand than much of their negative behaviors are wrong and damaging to themselves and others - they are perfectly defended against all attempts from others to tell them otherwise; however, the majority of them are open and actually quite shocked when they receive love from us, despite their behavior. Many, many kids go on to lead productive lives as adults and still write us about how they met Jesus through the love they found in our ministry. Love is what changes the world - it is the double edged sword that cuts across dualism and all the other limitations of theology.

No...no it doesn't. But we have to start somewhere, and if it's not from the true basis that something is a sin, we have nowhere to go to then tell them that freedom from sin is possible through the priceless gift of our Lord. And that second step should always come after the pronouncement of sin...too often it doesn't...and that is our failing.
I disagree again. Convincing a sinner that has sinned in the same manner from as far back as they can remember, is like telling them not to listen to their conscience - there sin is THAT close to them - it is a foundation they have learned to trust as truth over and over again - only God can up root this type of sin. We are called to set the stage for God by teaching them to trust and place their faith in relationships with neighbor and eventually God.

Again...no, it won't. But letting them think it's not a sin will have the guaranteed effect that they see no reason to seek forgiveness and salvation. Again...we MUST give them ALL the news at once....yes, it's a sin, but wonderful news.....
That way it's not a condemnation we are proclaiming over them, but a shared nature of sin that has been rescued....

Homosexuals already know that many Christians interpret homosexuality as sinful.

Yes the Spirit convicts...but we should always keep in mind that he will often use our words to do so. So our love MUST be biblical. Such love must inform as well as love. Nothing....absolutely nothing, is more loving than what Jesus has done for all sinners. There should be no need or hesitation on our part in needing to cover up part of that truth. And the simple fact is that part of that truth is that we are sinners and we ALL need his grace. My sin might be different to that of a homosexual sinners, but it's still sin none the less....and as I repented and now strive every day to walk with Christ away from that sin, so too should we present the truth to homosexuals....

Jesus would not have told us to love God and others if we did not know how to do so biblically. You are creating a false dichotomy - love IS biblical. The very act of loving others is denying yourself! We will know when it is time to inform sinners when they come to us after being convicted of their sins and begin to long for a deeper relationship with God.

Foreigner said:

Yes,
'turning away from sin' means to stop sinning.

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No parallel there. Sin means 'to miss the mark'. You turn away from sin- it does not mean you will never miss the mark.

Woe to the person who thinks they do not ever sin. You have a lot of time in Purgatory stacking up, or worse.

Actually, turning away from sin (selfishness) towards love (selflessness) is to no longer 'miss the mark'. Doesn't mean we will no longer turn back towards ourselves, but as long as we are loving God and others we are not sinning.

marksman said:

I wouldn't put all your begs in one askit if I were you when it comes to the APA. They said many moons ago you are not born homosexual. Then they said you are born homosexual. Then they said you are probably not born homosexual.

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I'm not necessarily claiming that the APA have answers to the hows and whys of homosexuality. They even claim that they don't know. So, why the criticism of them? The only reason I presented that piece by the APA is because someone else made the claim that homosexuals are not born with that particular orientation. Why is it that we prefer to accept someone's opinion simply because it tallies with our own? Because we're human ...that's why. I would suggest that 'the experts' on homosexuality are homosexuals themselves. I wonder, has anyone ever thought to ask THEIR 'opinions' about the hows and whys of homosexuality?

marksman said:

They also said no women suffers negative results from abortion. I guess all the books that tell of the suffering women have gone through as a result of having an abortion are all telling lies.

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Based on what you say ...how come 'no one' listens to the suffering that many homosexuals go thru' simply because they are oriented the way they are? Remember, women choose to have abortions. Homosexuals don't choose to be homosexual.

marksman said:

Plus, a previous President of the organisation is on record as saying that the APA has lost its way as scientific rigour has been replaced by politically correct ideology.

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That's possibly true. But that has no bearing as to the whys and hows of homosexuality.

marksman said:

Add to their woes is the fact that in their statement of faith they say that if someone asks a counsellor to help them out of homosexuality, they must be helped even though they believe that is not possible.

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Not sure what that means.

marksman said:

if I were you, I would drop the APA as a reference as they don't seem to know whether they are Arthur or Martha.

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And those laypersons who claim point blank that homosexuality is a choice DO know . . .??

marksman said:

And to correct one other thing a homosexual orientation does not have to lead to homosexuality. The orientation in most cases is due to an emotionally deficient childhood so it is not their choice. However, to act on that is a choice as no one makes anyone have sex with a man. It only happens because the person chooses to let it happen.

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Be that as it may, what does that have to do with you?

marksman said:

It is no different to a heterosexual. They have a sexual orientation towards the opposite sex but they don't have to follow through on it. If they have sex with a woman who is not their wife, that is a choice they make.

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But, again ...what does that have to do with you?

marksman said:

If they are sexually promiscuous with women then that is their choice as no one makes them promiscuous. If a man is sexually promiscuous with other men that is their choice as no one makes them do it.

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Bingo! It's their choice and not yours!

marksman said:

If they say they can't help being homosexual as it is not a choice, they are deceiving themselves the same as a promiscuous heterosexual who says he can't help being promiscuous.

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Okay, so they're deceiving themselves. Why are you making this your problem? Are there any issues in your own back yard that you might be better off taking care of . . .?

Hey! It's nice to chat with you again....it's been a while! I like that we can discuss and disagree but there is no feeling like I'm fighting for my life!!

aspen2 said:

Hey Aspen...how are you going?
I feel I should probably point out that determining God's will and thoughts on a subject can never be moot! In fact the more we understand God's thoughts and decrees on something, the better we know how we should act on the subject.

Hi Rach - nice to read your post!

God's thoughts and perspective are higher than we can fathom - all we can do is relate to Him though obedience and that means loving Him and one another. My dog will never relate to me on any other level than obedience and affection - how much greater is the gulf between humanity and God?

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It's true that your dog will never understand or relate to you on any kind of real level....but you have not written to your dog in his language with the very purpose of revealing some of yourself to him.
We shall never fully comprehend or know God...an impossible thing for limited people to know or understand a limitless God. But God's revelation to us tells us that we can know some...that he indeed expects us to know that which he has given to us. The bible has many different purposes...and yes, it tells us to obey and love him, and love others; but it also is for our growth in understanding God. The more we study his word and grow our relationship through prayer, the richer our lives will be...the richer our understanding of his purposes for us and others.

aspen2 said:

I disagree. Knowledge does not change hearts. Telling a sinner that God hates their sin is not a start - loving them into a relationship with the Holy Spirit, who will convict them is the only way to nurture their faith without jading their heart. For example, the homeless kids I work with understand than much of their negative behaviors are wrong and damaging to themselves and others - they are perfectly defended against all attempts from others to tell them otherwise; however, the majority of them are open and actually quite shocked when they receive love from us, despite their behavior. Many, many kids go on to lead productive lives as adults and still write us about how they met Jesus through the love they found in our ministry. Love is what changes the world - it is the double edged sword that cuts across dualism and all the other limitations of theology.

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No...knowledge does not change hearts...nothing does but God. And I'm not suggesting opening conversations with people by going "hi, my names Rachel...you're a sinner and God hates sin."
But as irresponsible as it is telling people that 'once you're saved life will be a breeze'...it too is irresponsible to let people think the things they are clinging to in this life are not sinful. And it doesn't matter what we're talking about here....homosexuality, obesity or obsession with image. It's all idolatry...it's all placing created things above the creator. And we all do it. That's the big idea and conversational opener...we're all in the same boat. Clearly the world is broken...clearly people are broken...why? Why are things and people as they are? How can we fix this? We can't...but there is someone who can...who already has.
Also...I have no great experience, but I would also think that if I was 'friended' by someone who accepted me as I was, who made me feel good about myself and choices, that I was not being judged....and then that friend turned around and told me...'actually, I think that stuff you do is a sin...I have all along'....I would be horribly betrayed and wouldn't want to listen to a single thing they then had to say.
As Christians we HAVE to believe in sin. Without sin Jesus died for no reason and we have no need for him. Sin is a very real and everyday disease and we must war against it...in ourselves and in the world. We cannot brush it under the rug to bring out later once we've 'subdued' people with our coolness about their life choices. We must and can....Jesus did, he showed us it was possible....love them at the same time being up front above our natures and their own.
It's my feeling, and I do think scripture backs me up...that being honest and up front about it all is the best way forward. As you say...it's the Holy Spirit that does the convicting and changing....he certainly doesn't need us to sugar coat the world's stain for us, the most broken and defensive people will crumble before him if he claims them. It's up to us to speak the truth with love and understanding, making it clear to them that while we believe what the bible says, we don't condemn ourselves, neither do we condemn them....

aspen2 said:

No...no it doesn't. But we have to start somewhere, and if it's not from the true basis that something is a sin, we have nowhere to go to then tell them that freedom from sin is possible through the priceless gift of our Lord. And that second step should always come after the pronouncement of sin...too often it doesn't...and that is our failing.
I disagree again. Convincing a sinner that has sinned in the same manner from as far back as they can remember, is like telling them not to listen to their conscience - there sin is THAT close to them - it is a foundation they have learned to trust as truth over and over again - only God can up root this type of sin. We are called to set the stage for God by teaching them to trust and place their faith in relationships with neighbor and eventually God.

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I don't believe it is up to us to do any 'convincing'. It is up to us to share the gospel...there are many bible verses you could use to 'sum up' that gospel, I've only put down two, but you can see that as much of 'saved, redeemed, justified' etc language is uses, so too is 'condemned, judged, sinned'. The two must go together...the bible proclaims the gospel this way, so we should not strive to do it differently:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” (John 3:16-21 ESV)

the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
(Romans 3:22-25 ESV)

aspen2 said:

Again...no, it won't. But letting them think it's not a sin will have the guaranteed effect that they see no reason to seek forgiveness and salvation. Again...we MUST give them ALL the news at once....yes, it's a sin, but wonderful news.....
That way it's not a condemnation we are proclaiming over them, but a shared nature of sin that has been rescued....

Homosexuals already know that many Christians interpret homosexuality as sinful.

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Ah yes....but do they know what we really think...what the bible really says, and why we are so intent on pushing the issue?
Being enslaved to sin will bring despair and eventual ruination. Any loving Christian shudders to think of that for any person. Jesus frees us from sin, bringing us joy...why wouldn't we want that for others? Why would we think that is not amazing, incredible news that we want to share?
Truly....when you think of sin in your own life....what do you think and feel? Do you feel the condemnation you are saying our announcement of sin brings to others?? I hope not! I'll tell you what I feel when I think of the struggle of sin in my life....jaw dropping, heart lifting amazement. I see the darkness in my life...the times I stumble, the selfish pride that pops out...I see it, and so can do nothing else but love my God more for the grace and freedom he has given me.
So if we just say to people: "Jesus loves you"...they go...ok, or meh....so do heaps of people.
But if we tell them that their actions and thoughts are a violation against a holy God and his response to it was to sacrifice his own son to save them...completely free them...and he still loves them even after such a sacrifice, then they can go....'man...that's sort of huge'. Of course we still need the Spirit to step in and really open their eyes to it all, but you get my point. If I tell my son that I forgive him when he's done nothing wrong, then nothing....if he's done wrong against me but I still forgive him...then it means more, weighs more. It's the sin, the iniquity that gives our relationship with God weight...gives him more glory....gives Christ's propitiation unbelievable worth.

aspen2 said:

Yes the Spirit convicts...but we should always keep in mind that he will often use our words to do so. So our love MUST be biblical. Such love must inform as well as love. Nothing....absolutely nothing, is more loving than what Jesus has done for all sinners. There should be no need or hesitation on our part in needing to cover up part of that truth. And the simple fact is that part of that truth is that we are sinners and we ALL need his grace. My sin might be different to that of a homosexual sinners, but it's still sin none the less....and as I repented and now strive every day to walk with Christ away from that sin, so too should we present the truth to homosexuals....

Jesus would not have told us to love God and others if we did not know how to do so biblically. You are creating a false dichotomy - love IS biblical. The very act of loving others is denying yourself! We will know when it is time to inform sinners when they come to us after being convicted of their sins and begin to long for a deeper relationship with God.

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I wish I was creating a false dichotomy, but I'm not. Unbiblical love is one of the most destructive forces on earth. We see it daily. Love turned into Idolatry. A mother who loves her child more than anything creates a spoilt, selfish child, who in turns disappoints the mother, because he cannot possibly live up to her expectations. A woman who loves her husband so much she looses herself, even if he turns abusive, she cannot imagine a life without him...indeed even nursing bruises she is still thinking about him, about not making him look bad, about getting him back. Unbiblical love is a sickness, and it has infected this world. Woman claim self love and so murder babies, adulterers cheat because they 'fell in love'...and yes...gay people claim anything is sinless under the banner of 'love'. They have turned love itself into a god, an idol. I wish it weren't so, but the evidence is all around us.
It makes it very evident that the love that is talked about in scripture is very different to what today's society calls love. Do they share some of the same properties? Sure...at the centre of it is an overwhelming feeling of caring, passion, tenderness...etc. But for Christians the guiding star of such feelings must come from scripture and God. If we love something that the bible says is a sin, it is not biblical love.

KCKID

While this remark was not aimed at me I'd like to respond to it. According to scripture simply being human is a barrier to the Kingdom. "There is none righteous (worthy), no not one," according to Paul. We are all 'in error' because we're human. So, why is it that those who are unworthy and in error continually tell others that they are unworthy and in error?

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Not at all, ‘not being worthy’ isn’t a barrier to the Kingdom with faith in Jesus Christ. Wilful sexual immorality including same sex relations is (1 Cor 6, Romans 1, Rev 22 etc) That is where faith comes in.

But, are not Jesus' teachings very much about unconditional love? It seems as though you're adding your own slant to this by stating that there ARE conditions to Jesus' unconditional love. How does that work?

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Depends what you mean, we do need to have faith in Christ, faith in Him leads us to seek to follow His teaching. Are you not familiar with this core understanding of Christianity? Read John 14-17 for a start.

What, precisely, is a 'Bible-believer'? I mean, what does a 'Bible-believer' do with texts such as those found in the Old Testament where disobedient children are to be executed?

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Depends whether you mean Bible believing Christians or not. Bible believing Christians means those who believe the Biblical testimony as opposed to people who have other ideas about what Christianity is.

What about the stoning until death of adulterers?

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Well read John 8 and see what Christ’s teaching is.

I said that being a Christian is not dependent on one's ability to quote scripture. So often quoting scripture only serves to puff one up while belittling another.

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Not really. All scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching and correcting, (1 Tim 3) and it will encourage and challenge.

As for genetalia ...if that is the be all and end all to loving another person then anyone who has sex for any other reason than procreation is not using their genetalia as intended by God.

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Well that is not the point I was making, and typically in these discussions, far from it. Love isn’t sex. Sexual intercourse may be the result of love but the two are not the same. The greatest love according to Jesus is a man lay down his life for a friend, hardly sex. Non-functioning and anatomically disordered acts such as same sex ones are not loving or ones neighbour according to God.

So, recreational sex is a no-no.

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Sounds like it whatever you mean by ‘recreational sex’ Same-sex sex is a no-no, that for sure.

That said, and without meaning to be crass, what IS the difference between non-procreational sex (sex used for intimate pleasure only) whether one is heterosexual or homosexual? My logical viewpoint is 'there is no difference'. Should I, perhaps, suspend logic in this instance?

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You have suspended logic to make that statement. There are two sexes in the species with corresponding genitalia for sexual intercourse and this is so the species can reproduce. Your ‘homosexual’ doesn’t fit the anatomically reality.

The siily thing is, most christians will not listen to God, yet they expect everyone else to listen to them. Jesus has being calling everyone to Himself even in teh New Testament, yet most chritans are so far from Him they wouldnt recognise Him.

Mat_5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

We have being made the rightousness of God, but this gives no man the right to point fingers at any one else, in fact if you knew Jesus you would find it difficult to do so. Be carefull that on judgement day, you are not judged as you have judged them

In All His Love

KCKID said:

Whether or not there is an appropriate Greek term for the word 'homosexual/homosexuality' as we refer to it nowadays, the facts are that 'homosexuality/homosexual' are terms that were NEVER found in the original manuscripts. Indeed, one will not find that word even in the KJV. While this does not mean that an equivalent term for 'homosexuality' was not used, it irritates me somewhat when people such as SilenceInMotion claim that 'the scriptures' say what they do not say. One more time, the words 'homosexuality/homosexual' were coined only relatively recently. If one needs to quote the scriptures then do so using the original texts and not an Anglo/anti-gay-slanted version of those texts!


Whatever Jesus might have preached about we need to bear in mind that anything He said - or was reported to have said - was said PRIOR to his crucifixion. Just think about that for a moment. Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection had to occur BEFORE believers in Jesus had their sins imputed to His righteousness. That said, is there any chance that some of you folks could concentrate LESS on how miserable and wicked others are and become more concerned with your own standing with Jesus . . .? I can't help but wonder if some of you are more 'lost' than the ones you point fingers at.

By the way, SilenceInMotion, is there any chance that you could provide a list of commandments that were nailed to the cross and those that were not? There seems to be much confusion - as well as selective scripture choosing - among Christians when it comes to the Laws of the Torah that were done away with and those of the New Covenant that are, presumably, still in force. I won't ask for a show of hands from those who claim to have this 'Law thing' figured out . . .UNLESS, it's the following simplistic message of the Gospel: ..."Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners." How many 'accusers' are REALLY familiar with this scripture?

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'Effeminate' and 'men who sleep with men' are closer to the original language, the newer translations just simplify it by calling it 'homosexuality'.

Homosexuality is a sin, and it is something not only found in Christianity, but Abrahamic religion across the board. It is against God's natural law. The human body isn't even made for homosexual acts. Sodomy is unnatural and more easily spreads diseases. It causes hemmoraging among other things including but not limited to basically being disgusting. You are having sex with a man's feces for crying out loud. It is an object of vanity and uselessness, providing no fruit. It is completely incompatible to the natural order God wills.

The entire Bible is chock full of things such as treating your body as a temple, marriage being between a man and a woman, and so on. Homosexuality does not fit anywhere. It is a sin, and the reason people deny it today is because we have entered an age where it is accepted and people want to make God seem to do the same.

People even go as far as to want to redefine and reinterpret the entire Bible, such as what you are doing now. What is it about the object of homosexuality that drives people mad? I have no idea. Perhaps it's just a clear cut example- God's way of showing the self-righteousness of mankind.

KCKID is someone close to you gay?

mjrhealth are you gay or is someone close to you gay?

You two have been put into a corner numerous times and are still talking...clearly oblivious to it. You have to have some motive? Please come clean!

Sunday school lesson 1: Your body is the temple of God. Sex is sacred. Sex is chiefly for procreation in a protected family environment. Adultery and fornication are evil. Adultery more so as spouse and children damaged and not just you. Hence accept any sexual temptation outside of marriage between husband and wife as straight from the devil.

Sunday school lesson 2: God does not make mistakes! God made you male. Be a male. Did God make a mistake? Either you are dumb or God is dumb. God is not dumb. Unless you are a hermaphrodite you have no excuse.

Sunday school lesson 3: Judging the level of rebellion to God / aka sin. Will you divorce your wife for thinking of other men? NO. Will you divorce your wife for repeated adultery? YES. So to those in the new covenant of husband / wife and not just servant / master the rules on sin change somewhat to discerning the level of rebellion. To defy your body, day in and day out by sleeping with the opposite sex takes extreme rebellion to God.

Conclusion: Christians battling with homosexuality need serious / urgent / real help! That is why any person condoning it in anyway or lessoning the seriousness of it, is straight from the devils camp. Expect no agreement on scripture 'duh' and dodging logic.