Secure Eternal Salvation

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Eternally Grateful

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A self refuting statement. The Bible doesn't tell us how many books belong in the NT, you have to go to outside sources to find out how we got the Bible. Bible origin fantasies is not the truth. Do you at least accept the Council of Nicae in 325 that defended the Trinity from the heretic Arius??
lol

How many books are in the bible does not determine ones destination or who is the correct church.

The NT church did not argue what books belonged in the bible and the non of the apostles called people heretics if they did not have a biblle that had this amount of books in it.

keep trying my friend. Keep trying. I have an open mind, You may convince me yet
 

Taken

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You already know the answer to the question Taken! Why are you asking questions of which you already know the answer?



I am not a mind reader of WHO your list of men are or WHY you think your list of men thoughts matter.

They are the men of The Church.

So? So am I.

You already know which Church I'm speaking of so PLEASE don't play dumb with me.


You speak on behalf of the Catholic Church. That is not my Church. My Church is Christ’s Church.

Furthermore, if you don't know about those men in the list I provided then you don't know your own Christian history.

LOL. The History of Christ’s Church is well documented in Scripture. Who is the Foundation, the Head, the Teacher, and How others Can Join or Decline.
Not a big mystery.
* Don’t see mention IN Scripture, of the men you mention or know why what they say matters.

So PLEASE don't ask me who those men are. You should take the time to learn your own Christian history and NOT rely on me to teach you.

Your ability to rattle off a list of names, and what they think, and Your inability to answer a simple question, gives me all I need to know. Nothing to consider about them.

I imagine you are upset because you made a feeble attempt to use one of the greatest saints of The Catholic Church to make your point and it backfired on you.

Your inabilities, have no power to upset me.
I asked you a simple question, you could could not answer, so per usual, go off on a rant of deflection.

No matter. Your list of men are irrelevant. What they thought is irrelevant. Your deflection is irrelevant.

I have the Word of God, I have a Teacher that is absolute Truth, and what men you choose to follow has zero effect on me.

Talk about DEFLECTING Taken. You didn't even address the names given and why you reject them.

Sure I addressed them.....You brought them up as if they had some significance. I asked you who are they and why what they say matters.
You did not answer the question.

No, I did not reject them. I simply did not consider them. And nothing you said sparked my interest to consider them.

You accept Augustine when he writes something that you THINK agrees with you....

Flat out False. More of your typical tactics. Make a claim for me, that I did not claim.

attack saying I falsy accuse you.

You have, you do. Just read your comment in bold red for your latest false accusation.

Instead of defending
what you have posted

I have no requirement to DEFEND asking you a question!
Same ‘ole Catholic Mary. Deflect and Accuse. Not surprised.
 

Marymog

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I am not a mind reader of WHO your list of men are or WHY you think your list of men thoughts matter.


You speak on behalf of the Catholic Church. That is not my Church. My Church is Christ’s Church.
See, you were playing dumb with me. You knew all along I was talking about The Catholic Church. You and your dumb game playing. PLEASE just have a normal conversation and stop playing word games.

YOU are NOT a member of The Church and you know what I mean when I say THE CHURCH so don't start another word game with me.
 

Marymog

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I am not a mind reader of WHO your list of men are or WHY you think your list of men thoughts matter.



So? So am I.



You speak on behalf of the Catholic Church. That is not my Church. My Church is Christ’s Church.



LOL. The History of Christ’s Church is well documented in Scripture. Who is the Foundation, the Head, the Teacher, and How others Can Join or Decline.
Not a big mystery.
* Don’t see mention IN Scripture, of the men you mention or know why what they say matters.



Your ability to rattle off a list of names, and what they think, and Your inability to answer a simple question, gives me all I need to know. Nothing to consider about them.



Your inabilities, have no power to upset me.
I asked you a simple question, you could could not answer, so per usual, go off on a rant of deflection.

No matter. Your list of men are irrelevant. What they thought is irrelevant. Your deflection is irrelevant.

I have the Word of God, I have a Teacher that is absolute Truth, and what men you choose to follow has zero effect on me.



Sure I addressed them.....You brought them up as if they had some significance. I asked you who are they and why what they say matters.
You did not answer the question.

No, I did not reject them. I simply did not consider them. And nothing you said sparked my interest to consider them.



Flat out False. More of your typical tactics. Make a claim for me, that I did not claim.



You have, you do. Just read your comment in bold red for your latest false accusation.



I have no requirement to DEFEND asking you a question!
Same ‘ole Catholic Mary. Deflect and Accuse. Not surprised.
About a month ago I was considering putting you on my ignore list because of these silly word games you play. You would have been the first person I have ever done that to. I decided not to put you on the ignore list because you make me laugh and we all need a good laugh.

here is the simple fact kiddo. You tried to use Augustine to make a point against The Church. I fully quoted Augustine and other great men of The Church to destroy you and your feeble attack against The Church. You got caught by me trying to use a great man of The Church to attack The Church and you failed because I called you out on it. That hurt your feelings. I apologize for hurting your feelings and pointing out your failure.
 

Taken

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A self refuting statement. The Bible doesn't tell us how many books belong in the NT, you have to go to outside sources to find out how we got the Bible. Bible origin fantasies is not the truth. Do you at least accept the Council of Nicae in 325 that defended the Trinity from the heretic Arius??

I don’t have to go to outside sources to find out how we got the Bible!
The Bible itself notifies me.
God gave His Word to men. Godly men spoke. Scribes listened and wrote. Recorders transferred the Scribes dictations on to scrolls. The Scrolls were kept in the Temple. Hand Copies of the Scrolls were made and distributed to the Synagogues. Later copies of the scrolls were written in A Book. The Book was given a preface page dividing the Single Book into a series of Numbered Books, Numbered Chapters, Numbered Verses, and hand copies were made and distributed among Churches. The Book was also translated into other languages.
Later via the invention of the printing press, Copies Increased. Merchants bought the Books and sold them to people who could afford them. As men could afford the Books, they bought them. As men’s ability to Read increased, men actually began reading the Books.

Today, nearly every household in the US, and many other nations OWN their own copy of the THE BIBLE. Still few who CAN READ, actually READ the Bible.

(As in ancient days,) many men, (before men could read,) they too prefer to gather together, and have someone stand and tell them what to Believe, without verifying if it be Scripturally True.
 
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farouk

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I don’t have to go to outside sources to find out how we got the Bible!
The Bible itself notifies me.
God gave His Word to men. Godly men spoke. Scribes listened and wrote. Recorders transferred the Scribes dictations on to scrolls. The Scrolls were kept in the Temple. Hand Copies of the Scrolls were made and distributed to the Synagogues. Later copies of the scrolls were written in A Book. The Book was given a preface page dividing the Single Book into a series of Numbered Books, Numbered Chapters, Numbered Verses, and hand copies were made and distributed among Churches. The Book was also translated into other languages.
Later via the invention of the printing press, Copies Increased. Merchants bought the Books and sold them to people who could afford them. As men could afford the Books, they bought them. As men’s ability to Read increased, men actually began reading the Books.

Today, nearly every household in the US, and many other nations OWN they own copy of the THE BIBLE. Still few who CAN READ, actually READ the Bible.

(As in ancient days,) many men, (before men could read,) they too prefer to gather together, and have someone stand and tell them what to Believe, without verifying if it be Scripturally True.
@Taken I am reminded of the noble Jews of Berea who "received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so".
 

Taken

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See, you were playing dumb with me. You knew all along I was talking about The Catholic Church. You and your dumb game playing. PLEASE just have a normal conversation and stop playing word games.

YOU are NOT a member of The Church and you know what I mean when I say THE CHURCH so don't start another word game with me.

I didn’t ask you about ‘YOUR CHURCH’....
I asked you about your list of men and why what they said mattered.


Why are you yapping on about “YOUR CHURCH”, instead of having just answered the question....<—— that would have been a normal conversation.
:rolleyes:
 
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Taken

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About a month ago I was considering putting you on my ignore list because of these silly word games you play.

I take the credit for asking you a question.
I give you the credit for inability to answer, and deflecting.

You should ignore and hide, since simple questions get you all flustered and makes yourself look silly.
 

Taken

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@Taken I am reminded of the noble Jews of Berea who "received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so".

Amen!

It is ludicrous for people to boldly say....”oh you people who Believe only the Bible....pfff....there are so many others sources “of men WE have declared and identified by NAME, as worthy”, to listen them them!

So n so said, So n so said....and does it line up with Scripture? Uh...does it matter? :rolleyes: LOL of course it matters! (Well...it obviously matters to SOME, and NOT others!....and the “others” let us know, AS IF it is a badge of HONOR....<—-error.)
 

Renniks

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WOW.
The fact that you can write these 2 sentences and NOT see that they are related is mid-boggling . . .

Exek. 36:35-37 is a prophecy about Baptism:
I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

The NT uses the same language to convey the reality of Baptismal Regeneration . . .

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Acts 22:16

And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'

Tit. 3:4-8
but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit

1 Pet. 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Yes, it's symbolic for spiritual cleansing. Washing is not giving anyone salvation. A baby that's baptized is just a wet baby.
The Ezekiel passage is about spiritual cleansing, not physical water.
 

BreadOfLife

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Yes, it's symbolic for spiritual cleansing. Washing is not giving anyone salvation. A baby that's baptized is just a wet baby.
The Ezekiel passage is about spiritual cleansing, not physical water.
Ummmm, what, exactly about spiritual cleansing is is "symbolic"?
Chapyter and Verse
, please . . .
 

Illuminator

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lol

How many books are in the bible does not determine ones destination or who is the correct church.
That is not what I said. The Bible doesn't tell us how many books belong in the NT, you have to go to outside sources to find out how we got the Bible. This you refuse to do.

The NT church did not argue what books belonged in the bible and the non of the apostles called people heretics if they did not have a biblle that had this amount of books in it.
The apostles didn't have Bibles. The NT Church debated until the 4rth century.
Timeline of the books of the New Testament period
A Brief Timeline for the Canonization of the New Testament – Baptist History and Heritage Society
https://churchhistory101.com/docs/New-Testament-Canon.pdf
Development of the New Testament canon
None of these sources are Catholic, so you can't complain of doctrinal bias. History is your enemy, not the Catholic Church.
 

Illuminator

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@Taken I am reminded of the noble Jews of Berea who "received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so".
The noble Bereans were GREEK Pharisees who accepted the GREEK Deuterocanon as Scripture and studied them 200 years before Christ.
 

Marymog

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@Taken I am reminded of the noble Jews of Berea who "received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so".
What Scripture did they search and what were they searching for?
 

post

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What Scripture did they search and what were they searching for?

the Bereans found Christ testified of throughout the Tanakh: they verified what they were hearing from Christians.
((note what they considered authoritative: scripture, not men))
i.e. they obeyed the command of John 5:39 -- "search the scriptures.. these testify of Me"
they very likely were reading the Septuagint.
 

BreadOfLife

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Sigh. Did I say spiritual cleansing was symbolic? No! I said baptism is symbolism for spiritual cleansing.
And Wwater is the natural MEANS by which God accomplishes this supernatural act.

Tell me, WHY did Jesus -
- Use WATER to make wine - when He could have simply spoken the wine into existence?
-U se MUD to cure the Blind Man - - when He could have simply healed him with a blessing?
- Use 5 loaves and 2 fish to multiply food - when He could have simply spoken ot into existence?

Don't know?
Because God understand s better than YOU that we are physical beings and need TANGIBLE means to illustrate His power and mercy

The SAME is true of the waters of Baptism: No Water - No Baptism.
 

Renniks

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And Wwater is the natural MEANS by which God accomplishes this supernatural act.

Tell me, WHY did Jesus -
- Use WATER to make wine - when He could have simply spoken the wine into existence?
-U se MUD to cure the Blind Man - - when He could have simply healed him with a blessing?
- Use 5 loaves and 2 fish to multiply food - when He could have simply spoken ot into existence?

Don't know?
Because God understand s better than YOU that we are physical beings and need TANGIBLE means to illustrate His power and mercy

The SAME is true of the waters of Baptism: No Water - No Baptism.
Symbolism, in every case. The water or the mud or the food don't do anything magic.
And there's many kinds of baptism in scripture that don't include water.
God does a supernatural act at conversion. Baptism symbolizes it for us. We aren't saved by baptism.
What does it take to be saved?
" if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
Now suppose a mute person believes. Is the confession of the tongue needed? No he just has to reveal his conversion somehow, assuming that's possible. It's God doing the work, not the confession or the water.
 

BreadOfLife

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Symbolism, in every case. The water or the mud or the food don't do anything magic.
And there's many kinds of baptism in scripture that don't include water.
God does a supernatural act at conversion. Baptism symbolizes it for us. We aren't saved by baptism.
What does it take to be saved?
" if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
Now suppose a mute person believes. Is the confession of the tongue needed? No he just has to reveal his conversion somehow, assuming that's possible. It's God doing the work, not the confession or the water.
Good grief – are you really that dense??

How many times to I need to repeat the fact that Catholics do NOT believe that the water in Baptism does the work of regeneration – but ids the MEANS by which God regenerates us.

Even by your OWN admission, our cooperation with God’s saving grace is absolutely necessary in order to be saved - and you even quoted Rom. 10:9 to prove it. This verse os where we START – but NOT where we finish. The people in Matt. 7:21-23 learned this the hard way.

According to the Bible, we experience the INITIAL grace to come to faith in Christ (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8).
However – the Bible also tells us that we continue to grow in Christ and are BEING save as we cooperate with God’s grace (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
This is why we are told that we have the hope that we WILL BE saved (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).

We are warned over and over again in Scripture that we can LOSE out security by our OWN doing when we choose to STOP cooperating with God’s grace (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb. 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

Baptism saves us (1 Pet. 3:21) because it is our faithful response to God’s call to cleanse us from our sins and bestow us with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

It’s not in “addition to” what Jesus did on the cross – it is BECAUSE of what He did on the cross.
 
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Renniks

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How many times to I need to repeat the fact that Catholics do NOT believe that the water in Baptism does the work of regeneration – but ids the MEANS by which God regenerates us.
Then, you believe the water is what does part of the work and that God can't regenerate us without it. I can quote scads of verses that say it's faith alone, but you want to have a salvation that includes works. So be it.