What is Predetermined?

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ScottA

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I went through every post since my first questions to you in #208, then #227, and finally in #247, and found no answers to either of these questions.

All you said was that I have 'left Jesus' for asking you such questions.

Unless you can show otherwise in your previous posts, not only are you worthless to engage, you are also a worthlessly lying. But, what else is to be expected of self-confessed sinners?
Stop calling names and acting unbecoming of a Christian, or I will report you.

I answered both your questions here:
Sin is sin.

But you are wrong in your assessment of those who are saved and actually know that it is eternal, regardless of your wrongful judgement of them. You are not the measure of salvation, God is, and He has made it perfectly clear that it is eternal life.

As for Paul in Romans 7, his words are a witness and a testimony against your claims, and for what it is that I have presented to you. Sin is sin, but once a person is in God, and God in them as One-- this is salvation, which is eternal. But Paul spells out the problem (which is in accord with the prayer of Christ of those remaining under the tribulations of this world), saying of himself, that even he was not perfect as Christ was/is perfect and righteous. And if your wrongful claim were at all true, it would not only be the loss of salvation for those you are accusing, but also for Paul. But having spelled out and clarified the issue of what is otherwise considered unrighteousness by God, he also clarified that it was indeed not a loss of salvation, but also clarified that for those like himself, "to live is Christ." Your claims, therefore, are also against Paul and Christ.

The truth of sin and salvation must agree with all of scripture: That none are righteous save One, and only in Him, do we have salvation, not by works, or even by being righteous as Christ was righteous, but in Him alone...not by our own righteousness, but by His righteousness; and that even sin for those who are in Him, is not counted as sin. This is true because all who have sinned perish, but "God is the God of the living", meaning those who are born [again] of the Spirit. Which was Paul's clarification that both laws exist in those who are saved, which is not against the saved as you say; but rather that in our mind we "serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin", which is not counted as sin. Romans 7:25
 

Stumpmaster

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LOL. Bag of wind. Accusations with ZERO evidence.
Funny.

Scriptural evidence that the redeemed are still capable of sin is plentiful.

Heb 12:1-2 Therefore let’s also, seeing we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let’s run with perseverance the race that is set before us, (2) looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

It wouldn't be necessary for the Lord to discipline His People if they were not prone to sin.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loves, he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives.”
 
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Taken

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Funny.

Scriptural evidence that the redeemed are still capable of sin is plentiful.

Heb 12:1-2 Therefore let’s also, seeing we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let’s run with perseverance the race that is set before us, (2) looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

It wouldn't be necessary for the Lord to discipline His People if they were not prone to sin.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loves, he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives.”

Well, those Scriptures do not prove....REDEEMED and STILL SINNING.

Everyone is born in sin, commits sin...
Some are forgiven and SIN NO MORE....<—converted saved, Spirit indwelt.

Some are still learning, believing, deciding to MAKE A LIFE LONG COMMITMENT of conversion.....<—-believing, not converted, still can sin!

So of course ^^^^^^ those believing, but not converted are vulnerable to sinning, and preached to.

Why would “teaching” to be careful not to get entangle in sin APPLY to A CONVERTED MAN KEPT FROM SIN, BY the indwelt POWER of Gods Spirit?

Is there something MORE POWERFUL THAN GODS SPIRIT than can convince a Converted man to become entangled in SIN?

Learn HOW to divide the word of Truth.
Stop trying to apply to a converted man, what does not apply to a converted man.
 

Stumpmaster

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Stop trying to apply to a converted man, what does not apply to a converted man.
Only someone naive would think a converted Christian is incapable of sinning.
A heretic came preaching sinless perfection in a fellowship I was once in and when a member challenged him he got angry and threw a punch at him. He also used profanity when I made a comment he didn't like.

Numerous pastors and ministers that I know of have confessed to adultery, some repenting and being restored to fellowship and ministry.

1Jn 1:5-10 This is the message which we have heard from him and announce to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (6) If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. (7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. (8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say that we haven’t sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
 
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Taken

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Only someone naive would think a converted Christian is incapable of sinning.
A heretic came preaching sinless perfection in a fellowship I was once in ....

So?
I have never said Conversion makes one SINLESS or PERFECT...

So what’s your point of telling me what some guy taught?
I am not accountable for what another says! (That guy)
I am not accountable for what YOU think I mean, but I have not said!

1Jn 1:5-10
(8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(10) If we say that we haven’t sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

BLAH, BLAH....When you HEAR ME SAYING SUCH THINGS...QUOTE ME, SAYING SUCH THINGS.......THEN you have an AH HA...and can properly quote those scriptures to me.
In the mean time......those scriptures DO NOT APPLY TO Me!

SO...Get to getting.......quote me saying those things.....!!! Waiting.
 

Taken

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Only someone naive would think a converted Christian is incapable of sinning.

You may think the Apostle John IS NAIVE....but I don’t.
You may think it NAIVE to Trust Scripture.....but I don’t.
You may think your Opinion matters more that Scripture....but I don’t.

1 John 3:9
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
 

Taken

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Numerous pastors and ministers that I know of have confessed to adultery, some repenting and being restored to fellowship and ministry.

Who did those ‘pastors and ministers” CHEAT ON?
God or their wife?
Did they run to other gods?
Or Did they run to other women?
 

Stumpmaster

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1 John 3:9
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
It's not the new man in Christ that sins, it's the old man of the flesh. Paul speaks to this on a number of occasions:

1Co 6:1-11 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? (2) Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? (3) Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? (4) If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? (5) I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? (6) But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers! (7) Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? (8) No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! (9) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, (10) nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (11) And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

1Co 8:12
But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.

Rom 7:24-25
O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? (25) I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Gal 5:16-17
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. (17) For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Php 3:12-14 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. (13) Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, (14) I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.


 

robert derrick

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Stop calling names and acting unbecoming of a Christian, or I will report you.

I answered both your questions here:
Since you refuse straight answers, I'll have to settle for your nonanswers:

Sin is sin.

All sin is unrighteousness and ungodliness, and all sinners are ungodly doers of unrighteousness, and they shall not stand in the congregation of the righteous, nor have boldness in the day of judgment at His appearing.

But you are wrong in your assessment of those who are saved and actually know that it is eternal,

Eternal salvation is only for them that obey Him. Eternal salvation is not for them that only believe and yet continue in unrepented sins unto death.

But Paul spells out the problem (which is in accord with the prayer of Christ of those remaining under the tribulations of this world),

Paul spells out the problem of being double minded in the faith and emphasises with them to seek the victory of no condemnation in Christ, who purify their hearts of unrepented sins by grace to help in time of need.

Instead of counselling and exhorting the wretched double minded to repent and purify their hearts according to the Scripture, OSAS offers the apostate doctrine of normalizing the wretched state of double mindedness unto death. It is the strong delusion that turns the believers from ever becoming righteous, holy, and unblameable elect overcomers unto the end.

Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter.

And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.


OSAS offers false healing to the wounded head of them that go on still in their trespasses and unrepented sins.

Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed. We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her, and let us go every one into his own country: for her judgment reacheth unto heaven, and is lifted up even to the skies.

Saying of himself, that even he was not perfect as Christ was/is perfect and righteous.

Paul was speaking of himself as double minded in order to empathise with such, OSAS now makes Paul wretched and unsaved to the end, as never being righteous as He is righteous:

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.


it would not only be the loss of salvation for those you are accusing

'Losing salvation' is a side-show distraction to draw attention away from the strong delusion of OSAS: unconditionally saved by faith alone, without any need of works of righteousness of God to be justified with Him, even as was Abraham.

No unrepentant sinner unto the end is righteousness as He is righteous, nor will they have boldness in the judgment, because in the end they were not as He was in this world.

OSAS teaches against it being righteous as he is righteous, in order to ensure the double minded stay unrepented of their sins.

That none are righteous save One, and only in Him.

That was before the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Those who trust to this Scripture for justification of unrepented sins are declaring themselves unjustified and unsaved, even as them before the resurrection.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

do we have salvation, not by works,


Another device of the devil in OSAS is to equate justification by works of God's righteousness through faith, with salvation by works of our own righteousness without faith.

OSAS refuses to acknowledge two simple things of Scripture:

1. the difference between our own works of self-righteousness without faith, which pleases not God, and doing the works of God's righteousness by faith, which justifies us with God, even as Abraham.
2. the difference between Living holy, righteously, and blamelessly in this life, and arriving at sinless perfection in the resurrection.

OSAS does so in order to justify going on still in unrepented sins and trespasses, which will get a wounded head from God only, not His eternal salvation and good pleasure.

That even sin for those who are in Him, is not counted as sin. This is true because all who have sinned perish, but "God is the God of the living".

Now this is yet another truly weird and mystical delusion of OSAS to add to the hopper. Thanks.

Sin is not counted as sin.

Sin is counted as sin for the world, but sin is not counted as sin for Christians.

Why? Because the world is dead in their sins and trespasses, but Christians are alive in their sins and trespasses of the world.

No other dysfunctional statement than this, can ever be overstated as the personification of delusional pride and distopian surrealism of Christian religionism.

God is the God of the saints living righteously, holily, and blamelessly in this life. God is not the God of the dead in their sins and trespasses:

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

OSAS teaches the double minded children of disobedience to remain so unto the end. They forbid ever living in obedience to God with a whole heart, pure mind, and subdued body, but rather condemn such as proud and unattainable in this life.

Which was Paul's clarification that both laws exist in those who are saved but rather that in our mind we "serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin",

Which is Paul's clarifying the difference between being double minded Christians in need of repentance, and overcoming saints in need of grace to endure unto the end:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

OSAS forbids being free indeed from the law of sin and overcoming sins of the flesh:

which is not counted as sin. Romans 7:25

Truly astounding dystopian mysticism indeed:

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
 

robert derrick

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Of course, I'm not ungodly. If I was ungodly how could I be a believer in Jesus and born again?
And I already said multiple times that I'm a saint who still sins.

What's the time limit between a sin committed and repenting from that sin before God cuts you off? What if you don't remember that you had a bad thought and you don't repent? Personally, I think everyone sins multiple times a day. What some people who believe in entire sanctification do is move the goalposts, so they can keep their inner sins, but not call them sin. Others just claim they live above sin, not acknowledging that their ever imperfection is in fact, sin.

Do you know who God says he hears? Those who are poor in spirit, the needy ones who know they sin and need Jesus to give them grace every minute of every day.
Thank you. I like your boldness. Perhaps we can come to an understanding of Scripture.

In not being ungodly, do you mean Christians cannot be judged as ungodly, or that as a Christian you do not live ungodly? You are not an ungodly sinner, because you are delivered from living as such?

And I already said multiple times that I'm a saint who still sins.

As in, having sinned since being born again? And it is possible to still do so again, so that if we sin, we have an advocate for grace to repent and being forgiven and once again cleansed of all ungodliness?

Or as OSAS, you will sin, and your sin is already forgiven?

What's the time limit between a sin committed and repenting from that sin before God cuts you off?

The time to repent is so soon as the Spirit of grace convicts our heart and convinces us of lust needing to be purified from the heart.

Being cut off is only for them that despise the Spirit of grace, and repent not, mocking God as not being a righteous judge of all souls.

Those cut off do not worship and obey God as Lord and Judge, but only give lip service to Him as unconditional Saviour.

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts.


Personally, I think everyone sins multiple times a day.

Personally, I think there is a difference between sinning against God, for all sin is unrighteousness disobedience against God, and making mistakes: I forgot an appointment with the vet. I tripped over my feet entering the office. I didn't remember a person's name I met before: imperfection in this life.

What some people who believe in entire sanctification do is move the goalposts.

1. 'Entire' sanctification is double-speak with God: His sanctification is entire and complete, and there is none other with Him than His own:

Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

2. The goal post moved most clearly by OSAS is from the possibility of ungodly sinning to the certitude of it, and equating living 'entirely' sanctified and unblameable as being unattainable perfection in this life.

so they can keep their inner sins, but not call them sin.

Sanctification begins in the heart and the mind: obedience to the faith begins with casting down every vain imagination and thought for sin in the mind.

The judgment of the Lord is that we sin in the mind with lust in the heart, before ever commit sin in the body:

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Christians must learn the obedience of Christ in the fear of the Lord: They must learn not to allow thought for sin to reign in my mind, and so to plant lust in my heart, so that they will not allow sin to reign over their mortal body:

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

This is the great failing of modern Christian teaching: the great discipline of grace for the disciple of Christ, is to rule over our minds without vain imagination and thought for sin, so as not to be lured by them to lust and disobedience to God.

We love God with all our heart and mind by first obeying His faith in our heart and mind. True professionals of this life learn to rule their minds and emotions over the body for a corruptible crown, but saints ought be doing so for an incorruptible.

Others just claim they live above sin, not acknowledging that their ever imperfection is in fact, sin.

As I said, ever mistakes abide with us in this life, not ever sinning in unrighteousness and ungodliness: Sins are not mistakes. Every sin is committed by being committed to from the heart, because all sin is by lust of the heart:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Those who are poor in spirit, the needy ones who know they sin and need Jesus to give them grace every minute of every day.

That is the mind of the double minded seeking grace to help repent of their unrepented sins.

The poor in spirit of the overcomer and the mind of Christ is knowing they must endure temptation and overcome sin unto the end, and need the same grace of Jesus that they overcome sin by, in order to continue overcoming unto the end.

It is one thing for the double minded to know they commit sins of the flesh, and it is another thing for the overcomer to know they have sins in the flesh to continue overcoming: We still have sins in the mortal body to fight and overcome daily unto the end.

The wretched double minded seek deliverance from their continued sins and double mindedness, so as to become overcomers in the faith, the overcoming saints seek the day of resurrection, where there will be no more fight to overcome sins in the glorified resurrected body of Christ.

OSAS teaches the double minded to give up the fight to become overcomers, and just lay down and accept it as inevitable for life.

OSAS seduces the double minded unto destruction, while hating the overcoming saint for convicting their conscience, even as Cain with righteous Abel.
 

Renniks

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OSAS teaches the double minded to give up the fight to become overcomers, and just lay down and accept it as inevitable for life.
I have never seen anything like this taught by OSAS church pastors. Perhaps it's out there, but in my experience pastors who believe in once saved always saved still are quite concerned with not falling into a sinful pattern of life.
I have brought this up to their faces because my concern was that the theology would make people uncaring about sinning, but I don't think it's exactly the case. Perhaps some put the goal posts in different places then I would. Example; some are ok with having a beer but not ok with getting drunk. I know people will claim to have killed all lusts in themselves, with God's help of course. I just don't see it.
Does that make them ungodly? I think you underestimate grace if you think so.
 

kcnalp

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Proverbs 16:4 (NKJV)
4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
 

robert derrick

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I have never seen anything like this taught by OSAS church pastors. Perhaps it's out there, but in my experience pastors who believe in once saved always saved still are quite concerned with not falling into a sinful pattern of life.
I have brought this up to their faces because my concern was that the theology would make people uncaring about sinning, but I don't think it's exactly the case. Perhaps some put the goal posts in different places then I would. Example; some are ok with having a beer but not ok with getting drunk. I know people will claim to have killed all lusts in themselves, with God's help of course. I just don't see it.
Does that make them ungodly? I think you underestimate grace if you think so.
Plainly you are going by your own experience and conscience. I don 't argue either, which is as useless as arguing opinions.

I only argue doctrine of Christ from he Scriptures.

I have compiled a list of that I have been taught by them claiming OSAS, especially one claiming to have taught it 47 years.

Perhaps I will take the time to print the list for you and see for yourself. Or you can go to the thread OSAS the Wonder Beast, where I have already been listing them.

I know people will claim to have killed all lusts in themselves, with God's help of course. I just don't see it.

What? Those claiming to have purified their hearts of lust according to the commandment of God are lying? or you have seen them openly showing otherwise?

What examples do you have?

Does that make them ungodly?

All ongoing sinners with unrepented sins are ungodly. Which is what Scripture says, which also is the problem we have if we would rather believe God by our own opinions and experiences.
 

robert derrick

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Stop calling names and acting unbecoming of a Christian, or I will report you.

I answered both your questions here:
Sin is sin.

That even sin for those who are in Him, is not counted as sin.

Sometimes we have to wonder if OSAS really believes what they are saying, or are they just blind to what they are saying in order to justify themselves.

Sin is sin, but not all sin is counted as sin.

So, sin is sin if an unbeliever sins, and sin isn't sin if a believer sins.

The sins of unbelievers are sins in deed, and exceeding sinful. But the sins of the believers are not, because they don't count.

You see, in the OSAS world, while sin is certainly sin, all sins are not sinned alike.

Unbelievers sin like real sinners. Believers sin like Christian sinners.

There are sinners playing games with religion, and then there are Christians playing games with sins: what's the difference?

Such hypocrisy is indeed spiritual wickedness in high places.

No wonder Paul said not to keep company with such. I'd rather be around good old fashioned fornicators and drunkards, that lay not spurious and ridiculously offensive claims to the name of Jesus Christ.
 

robert derrick

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you’re a daily sinner too robert. But your delusions of being a saint get in the way of you realizing it.
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

The childish thing is thinking somehow we are justified, if everyone else is just as unclean as us.

It's why Cain killed Abel:

Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

One thing's for sure, no one has ever been a saint in Christ Jesus without 'realizing it'.
 

quietthinker

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Who's back?

God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son.

Does He have the back of unbelievers?
The umbrella of God's protection is for all. God does not initiate disaster or maintain it.....we know who the destroyer is.
Many choose to step out from under God's protection and worship the destroyer, the one who steals and kills, either deliberately or by being deceived.....they push God's protection away.
 

Renniks

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What? Those claiming to have purified their hearts of lust according to the commandment of God are lying? or you have seen them openly showing otherwise?

What examples do you have?

Does that make them ungodly?

All ongoing sinners with unrepented sins are ungodly. Which is what Scripture says, which also is the problem we have if we would rather believe God by our own opinions and experiences.
First, lust isn't just about sex. Lust can be many things, as it's just the desire to have one's way. No one totally eliminates this, including the most godly among us. I would venture to say that the most godly admit they still have issues. And of course it's visible if you are around them enough. Anyone can look holy for an hour on Sunday.
I guess that's why the monks went to the wilderness and tried to eliminate all comforts of this life.
 
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michaelvpardo

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I am still amazed from time to time to see what you are talking about continue to happen. Anytime a Christian brings up Scripture about doing the righteousness of God, OSAS is always quick to fill in the gap and say no. We must sin daily.

Their doctrine has driven them to refuse righteousness and cleave to their sins, because they have invested all their heart, mind, and soul on unconditional salvation of Calvin, not eternal salvation of Jesus Christ.

Calvin is their idol.
Can you please provide the name of one professing Christian who says "we must sin daily." Just one will do.